Who should my friends main?

[WT!]

1) Likes to space his smash attacks and other powerful moves, particularly a fan of running up smash. Likes moves that rack up damage quickly as well. Likes his up airs.

2) Likes to go for hard reads a lot, especially with smash attacks. Likes his punish game, sometimes throws out smashes as go-to moves, GTFO moves, and when he doesn't know what else to do.

3) Likes moves with high damage output (PK Fire, Dancing blade etc). enjoys power, but speed is more important for him. Likes his aerial mobility.

 

[Hoser]

1) Likes to space his smash attacks and other powerful moves, particularly a fan of running up smash. Likes moves that rack up damage quickly as well. Likes his up airs.

2) Likes to go for hard reads a lot, especially with smash attacks. Likes his punish game, sometimes throws out smashes as go-to moves, GTFO moves, and when he doesn't know what else to do.

3) Likes moves with high damage output (PK Fire, Dancing blade etc). enjoys power, but speed is more important for him. Likes his aerial mobility.

1: Marth

2: Ike/Olimar

3: Metaknight/Pikachu

That's what I would suggest.

 

[LEGOfan12]

Probably Marth or Ike.

 

[infiniteV115]

This is not really how it works. You shouldn't be coming up with a gameplan of which moves to use, and then choosing a character that fits said gameplan. You should find a character you're comfortable with for other reasons, and then come up with a plan of which moves to use and when.

 

[WT!]

Yeah well, you aren't supposed to keep the character you used when you were a noob, and they all refuse to switch, which is so infuriating because the characters they're playing don't match their styles at all, and some of what they're doing completely matches the styles of other characters.

In truth, [I'm coaching them,] and I was trying to force them to switch characters, and they won't listen, so hopefully when they see your posts, they might. That's the only reason I'm doing this. In fact, some of your suggestions match mine, so...

 

[PKBeam]

1) Likes to space his smash attacks and other powerful moves, particularly a fan of running up smash. Likes moves that rack up damage quickly as well. Likes his up airs.

2) Likes to go for hard reads a lot, especially with smash attacks. Likes his punish game, sometimes throws out smashes as go-to moves, GTFO moves, and when he doesn't know what else to do.

3) Likes moves with high damage output (PK Fire, Dancing blade etc). enjoys power, but speed is more important for him. Likes his aerial mobility.

OK OK OK
1. Hyphen smash + Uairs? ,
2. Spontaneous playstyle? , maybe concerning the hard reads and punishes
3. Racks up damage quickly with strong moves and good mobility:
OR, OR you could just go

But you ARE choosing your mains wrong.

 

[WT!]

I get it. I'm doing it wrong. That's the thing, see? I know you're supposed to pick a character you are comfortable with and then decide what moves to use, but they refuse to do that. The use the same exact moves and strategies with little variation no mattr what character they are using. One friend always overuses his upward moves (up smash, up air, up tilt, and to a lesser extent, up throw) whether he is Marth or Kirby (2 random characters that he sometimes plays). Another friend way overuses his f-smash and goes for way to many hard reads with it whether he is DDD or Captain Falcon (again ^). he also admits to using smashes in general to get an opponent who is pressuring him off, and when he doesn't know what else to do. Another friend uses whatever move is the most annoying and/or highest damage the most so that he can get inside your head and force you to predict it and then throw out some ridiculous option that is considered bad by the metagame and get away with it. He likes to use his up-b as an attack no matter what character he is, and various other transcendent strategies.

Now do you get it? They refuse to adapt to the metagames and styles of the character(s) they are currently using and comfortable with, and yet they still want to be successful in competitive play. That's why I'm doing this.

 

[Hoser]

Now do you get it? They refuse to adapt to the metagames and styles of the character(s) they are currently using and comfortable with, and yet they still want to be successful in competitive play. That's why I'm doing this.

It won't happen. They're going to get wreaked at a tournament if they try fighting like that. If they refuse to change their playstyle, then they'll be condemned to casual play forever (or until they're the only two entering a Brawl tournament).

 

[WT!]

It won't happen. They're going to get wreaked at a tournament if they try fighting like that. If they refuse to change their playstyle, then they'll be condemned to casual play forever (or until they're the only two entering a Brawl tournament).

You mean the only 3

 

[infiniteV115]

Then you should start bodying them with every character until they realize that what they're doing isn't going to get them anywhere in the competitive scene

Honestly I'm surprised to hear that they actually want to be successful in competitive play

 

[Hoser]

You mean the only 3

yeah my bad. Not sure why I said 2.

I had a friend who was once like that too. But the rest of us played smart and continued to get better, until it got to the point that we could just 3 stock him every time. Once that started happening, he realized he had to stop trying to do stupid stuff he thought looked cool, and began to start thinking logically.

So I guess my advice would be to whoop them over and over in 1v1s until they get so demoralized they have to accept their style of play won't cut it.

 

[WT!]

I tried that, they just say "WT is too good" and continue what they are doing. After all, that's partially true. I mean, I'm not actually "too good", but I 2 and 3 stock my friend's Snake regularly with Jigglypuff (I've actually come up with an interesting meta) and this friend is NOT one of the ones who I'm trying to find a main for. When I use MK against him, I never take more than 90% the whole match, so I play my other main, which is Marth against him just for the practice, and I still never get down to 1 stock. And while I'm way better than he is, he's way better than they are. So basically they won't accept that what they are doing isn't working until someone who is worse beats them.

I get it this is ridiculous, I call them and tell them it is every day. But if I find a character for them that fits their strategies, maybe they have a small shot.

 

[infiniteV115]

No matter which character they play, if they stick to these strategies they're not going to get anywhere even at local tournaments. Finding a character for them isn't worth your time; either try harder (yes I know you've already been trying a lot) to convince them to change what they're doing, or give up.

Or, one thing you could do is give them 'fake' characters; ie tell them "hey if you're gonna stick to that gameplan then the best character to use is so-and-so" and give them the worst character possible for that gameplan. After losing some more after supposedly getting advice from their friend who's clearly much better than them, maybe that'll change their minds lol.

If you're gonna do that then I guess

1) Guy who likes usmash/uair/utilt/uthrow:

2) Guy who goes for hard fsmash reads and smashes a lot in general: Hmm...most characters actually have good smashes overall, but I think my answer for this is . Though, if he doesn't really use dsmash then definitely tell him to use , cause her fsmash and usmash are pretty bad lol...at least, they are when you don't know how to use them properly.

3) Guy who likes aerial mobility, speed, and high damage output moves: /

 

[WT!]

Great idea! The problem is they they want high tiers. They all already main high tiers, just the wrong ones. They'd be willing to go as low as Fox IMO.

Guy who likes upward moves currently mains Marth, but refuses to fair camp, off stage edge guard and do most of Marth's bread and butter stuff.

Guy who likes fsmash hard reads and smashes a lot in general currently mains Pikachu with a secondary DDD, is trying MK.

Third guy currently mains Marth, but has only just started and is up b-ing way to much, smashing too much, and not grabbing enough. Until recently he mained Ness just for his PK fire + PK thunder.

So. If I want to to "that" then...

1) Wario?
2) Snake?
3) Falco?

 

[PKBeam]

oh you guys are soooooo cruel.
I want in.
first guy sounds like he wants aggressive with simple playstyle. yeahsounds like a good choice as well, give him maybe?
second guy likes smashes and reads. i thinkis a nice choice as well but also has pretty bad smashes and if they don't use bair then they won't get far with him.
third guy is probably a noob. if he can actually commit himself give him , but I doubt that. i seen a lot of casuals play Falco totally wrong so that's probably a good choice.

if you give them high/top tiers you can also try to convince them that they should pick who they feel best with.

 

[infiniteV115]

Upward moves = ... hmmm this is hard. If he doesn't use uair much (ie mostly utilt/usmash/upB) then ZSS. If he doesn't use utilt much then Lucario/DDD. If he doesn't use usmash much, then Falco/Wolf. If he uses all the A ones pretty much equally, then...Lucario/Wolf.

Fsmash reads and smashes in general = ... if he uses fsmash a lot in comparison to the other 2 smashes, then ZSS for sure. ZSS is pretty much the go-to answer here unless he uses dsmash a decent amount. If he DOES use dsmash a decent amount, then I'll see Wario.

Guy who likes aerial mobility, speed, and high damage output moves:
Or if lots of upB and smashes and no grabs is a better description of him, then...Snake.

 

[WT!]

King dededededede king dedededededede king dededededededededededede
dededededededededededede...
MARIO WARIO - LUCARIO!

Lucario
Wario...
LUCARIO!

 

[WT!]

Ok ok ok so I've come up with more accurate and detailed descriptions of each of them and some new info.

1st guy (likes up toggle moves) needs a character who is based on vertical spacing (he's naturally very good at it, unlike most other aspects of the game), with exceptional smashes and good power in general (can't have kill issues), and a good amount of solid mix up options. I'm thinking Marth, Fox, Pikachu and/or Wolf. He's comfortable with those choices, I just want to know what you think of them. Maybe you can help me narrow it down.

The others, well, I'm working on it.

One guy switched to Ike as per your recommendations, but I don't know how that's going to work out for him in the longrun for many reasons.

The other guy is still developing his style. I'll update on him soon.

 

[PKBeam]

Marth, Fox and Wolf aren't very good at killing. I think all three have problems with it.
If you're going to go along with that plan... then alright.

 

[Thor]

If they're saying you're too good, then maybe you should tell them that you got too good by choosing your main via picking someone natural to you and choosing how you play the game, not the other way around.

While I'm sure you've already done this (and the next thing), it might be worth reminding that people they see in videos also do this. And if they haven't met Youtube and Apex 2013/Apex 2014, they really should do so - it might open their eyes a little as to how much what they are doing just won't work.

EDIT:

Marth, Fox and Wolf aren't very good at killing. I think all three have problems with it.

Fox isn't? Huh... dair -> usmash true combos at high enough percents, as does dair -> dsmash as a DI mixup, and at least against MK, grab + pummel = air release -> usmash (not sure this is exactly how it works, but rather close)... Fox also has some other ok setups since uair has good KO power and bair is pretty strong. I thought Fox actually did not have that many issues KOing as much as he did with being KO'd (super lightweight).

Marth has issues though (or does against certain characters, but can do things to alleviate this in certain MUs, such as versus Wario). Wolf I'm much more uncertain about - dthrow is good near the ledge, and dsmash is powerful and fast (I think it's barely slower than MK dsmash), plus bair does KO eventually, but I don't know if that's just me listing only positive things or if Wolf's options for KOing are actually passable.

 

[infiniteV115]

Lol neither Fox nor Wolf have trouble killing. Marth sorta does, ie he does if you're not a top level Marth

 

[WT!]

Other than the kill problems thing, how are those 4 picks?

 

[Crazc]

Yeah well, you aren't supposed to keep the character you used when you were a noob, and they all refuse to switch, which is so infuriating because the characters they're playing don't match their styles at all, and some of what they're doing completely matches the styles of other characters.

In truth, [I'm coaching them,] and I was trying to force them to switch characters, and they won't listen, so hopefully when they see your posts, they might. That's the only reason I'm doing this. In fact, some of your suggestions match mine, so...

um, what?

i still play the characters i used when i was noob, all i had to do was change my playstyle, and i did.

 

[infiniteV115]

Other than the kill problems thing, how are those 4 picks?

Well I don't know cause idk how bad your friends are. eg at a low competitive level, Marth has trouble killing because they won't be using upB OoS properly, low level Marths don't use dsmash to kill and they won't tipper their nairs/bairs/fsmashes.

But at a super low level people will die to untipper fsmash because no DI, and they'll get gimped because they use their jumps

Same applies to Pikachu, he normally has trouble killing but if your friends can't SDI dsmash --> thunder then yeah Pikachu's pretty good at killing

But I mean the choice doesn't really matter because your friends are gonna stay bad if they don't change their playstyles, so I guess any of those 4 are fine lol

 

[Crazc]

i have the same problems with my friends. they refuse to fight me 1v1 (except for one of them, but he already uses a character good for him, he's at my level except for tech skill) because they say "you're too good, Crazc", so the only way i can try to convince them is via teams, but i hate teams except for the previously mentioned guy who is at me level. But they wont let us be on teams together as we whoop ass together. So I'm then stuck with one of the ones im trying to convince, usually an exceptionally bad one as it "evens it out" in their minds. my team mate consistently gets his ass handed to him, and them im stuck doign 2v1's for the second half of the match. i have only won one of those once, as they refuse to play with team attack on (even though i like it because it prevents spamming) and they spam me.

after i lose, they say "what, Crazc? I just beat you, i dont need to change characters" but in reality they do.

 

[WT!]

This one friend, he is willing to change. Plus, he can and will tipper. I don't know how he'll do with the up-b OoS though.