Who should be nerfed/strengthened and how?

[saratos]

I didn't see this anywhere so I decided to post it. Basically, list characters from melee that should be nerfed (provided they return) or improved and in what way.

Here are my lists.
-----
NERFED:
Fox&Falco-
Need more lag inbetween their moves. Less power for their smashes. Fall less quickly.

Marth-
Needs less speed in his moves.

Sheik-
More lag in between moves.
-----
EMPOWERED:
Ness-
Decent v/^ smashes. Replace neutral 'B' with PK thunder, give him an actual recovery move.

Bowser-
More speed, better ^B.

Pikachu-
A tad more range.

Zelda-
More range and knockback.

------

yer turn.

 

[Takeshi245]

Why do I feel that there are already threads like this one?

 

[Kirby knight]

HOW DARE YOU FORGET TO MENTION KIRBY; THIS THREAD NEEDS TO BE CLOSED JUST BY THE ACCOUNT OF YOUR NOT MENTIONING KIRBY

:o end rant; I'm sure Sakurai will make the characters more balanced this time. He's not stupid I'm sure he's seen lots of vids of ADV play; after all he is the creator of smash.

Plus I'm really not in the mood to discuss changes :/

-Knight

 

[Zink]

Ness-
Decent v/^ smashes. Replace neutral 'B' with PK thunder, give him an actual recovery move.

Bowser-
More speed, better ^B.

Is this a joke?

 

[Limey]

This should be in character discussion.

I assume characters will be more balanced. It's been hinted at on the Dojo, but fingers crossed it actually happens.

 

[Puffs]

You're saying Ness and Zelda should be STRONGER!?

They're not going to make competitive play completely broken. This is Sora, Ltd working on the game, not Gamefreak.

 

[Team Giza]

NERFED:
Fox-
Weakened Upsmash with less knockback, Shine comes out on frame 3, upair slightly lowered knockback

Falco-
Dair is a meteor after the first 1/3 of the animation, shine comes out on frame 3, forward smash has slightly higher trajectory

Marth-
Minus Tipper, Make Dair a meteor, Less damage

Sheik-
More knockback on tilts (so she cannot chain as easily), fair gets slightly less knockback

Peach-
Downsmash releases you after the second hit if you crouch canceled, remove of float cancel (but make it an auto L-cancel)

Ice Climbers-
No more wobbling

Samus-
Less damage on downsmash, less damage and higher trajectory on forward smash

Captain Falcon-
Knee has slightly less knockback

EMPOWERMENTS;
Link-
Slightly faster projectiles, f-tilt is faster

Ganondorf-
Faster downtilt with a lower hit box, ground attacks give more shield stun

Thats all I am doing for now

 

[red stone]

nerfed-no one

strengthened-everyone

 

[The Hypnotist]

Everyone should be balanced, but we know that won't happen.

Peach needs a powerful move, a KO move. I think her Dair should be a spike. She doesn't have one move that kills at low percentages. That's just not cool.

 

[Katy Parry]

You're saying Ness and Zelda should be STRONGER!?

They're not going to make competitive play completely broken. This is Sora, Ltd working on the game, not Gamefreak.

Zelda should be stronger, such as her Dair, Fsmash, Dsmash, & Dtilt.

 

[ALB247]

Who needs balanced? I haven't seen a single character who needs to be balanced in any way possible.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go practice spacing my Fsmash tips with Marth.

 

[TheSpindoctor]

Why do I feel that there are already threads like this one?

Way to make the first post of this thread really annoying, and very negative.


I think that in all, the characters that were used very little should be empowered. Characters that were over-used should be nerfed.

 

[Takeshi245]

Way to make the first post of this thread really annoying, and very negative.


I think that in all, the characters that were used very little should be empowered. Characters that were over-used should be nerfed.

Don't care. I just posted what I thought. Calm down seriously. Anyways, I think Sheik's going to be nerfed due to all the complaints about her.

 

[Puffs]

Zelda should be stronger, such as her Dair, Fsmash, Dsmash, & Dtilt.

Her Fsmash is fine. And if they made her attacks any stronger, you'd be KO'd at 10% by a well-placed lightning kick. Most of her attacks have either power or knockback, and she needs some weak attacks to balance it out.

 

[greenblob]

Ness:
PKT2 should have a lot more speed and priority and perhaps a bit more distance.
Give him a wall jump so he's not screwed when he falls into a walled pit.
Faster aerials would be nice.

 

[red stone]

how about a counter for every character. you know like how marth counters the space animals and sheik counters marth and so forth

 

[Team Giza]

Now with more...

NERFED:
Fox-
Weakened Upsmash with less knockback, Shine comes out on frame 3, upair slightly lowered knockback

Falco-
Dair is a meteor after the first 1/3 of the animation, shine comes out on frame 3, forward smash has slightly higher trajectory

Sheik-
More knockback on tilts (so she cannot chain as easily), fair gets slightly less knockback

Marth-
Minus Tipper, Make Dair a meteor, Less damage

Peach-
Downsmash releases you after the second hit if you crouch canceled, remove of float cancel (but make it an auto L-cancel). Minus some upsmash priority. Jab priority lowered.

Captain Falcon-
Knee has slightly less knockback

Ice Climbers-
No more wobbling

Samus-
Less damage on downsmash, less damage and higher trajectory on forward smash

EMPOWERMENTS;
Mario-
Tilts give more shield stun, up+tilt has higher priority, up+B has no flinch when used on the ground during start up and gives more knockback, fireball give more stun

Ganondorf-
Faster downtilt with a lower hit box, ground attacks give more shield stun

Link-
Slightly faster projectiles, f-tilt is faster

Luigi-
Slightly heavier, higher priority grab moves, up+B has invinsiblity frames at start up and has a bit more horizontal movement

Donkey Kong-
Unable to be flinched during his forward+B start up, unable to be flinched during his F-smash at start up, Nair has higher priority, Up+B does not allow for flinch during the first few frames

Young Link-
Bomb take out almost instant, bomberang gives more stun, arrow gives more stun, Up+B does more damage

Pikachu-
More damage on aerials, F-smash has slightly faster start up, a tiny bit heavier

Yoshi-
Make much heavier, Forward smash gives more knock back, down smash gives more knockback, throws to more damage

Zelda-
Upair gives more knockback + damage, Dair has more priority and range, Nair has more priority, down-smash gives more knockback, tilts give more shield stun

Mr. Game and Watch-
Slightly heavier, F-tilt does more damage and knockback, Upsmash is slightly faster, Fair gives more knockback and shield stun, down+tilt gives more shield stun

Ness-
Faster aerials, more priority and damage on downsmash, more knockback and priority on upsmash, down tilt gives more shield stun, bair has a lower trajectory and more knockback, Does not flinch during first 15 frames of an aerial PK Thunder.

Bowser-
No flinch on Forward smash, more shield stun on all tilits, no flinch during first few frames of up+B, flamethrower has slightly less lag, command throw has more range and has no flinch frames during the move

Kirby-
Higher priority aerials, larger grab range, bair gives more knockback, tilts give more shield stun

Mewtwo-
Heavier, long grab range, tilts give more shield stun, more priority on uptilt, more priority on bair, more range and priority on dair, forward smash has lag

 

[psyt]

peaches downsmash, nerfed ofcourse, and wtf are u talking abt bowsers up b better? its the freaken best up b in the game

 

[DireVulcan]

In much more detail and logic...here's where I would want to see improvements made based on the assumption that the characters would keep those exact moves (which likely won't be so)

The four variables of attributes any move can have in Smash breaks down into this.

Power - speed - Range - priority

A move cannot contain a high level of ALL four variables, because then that's what will make it broken.

Nerfings

Fox - Keep his power and his speed, and the ability to cancel lasers. Trim a bit of range from his up B, and smooth out his priority. For a character that has blazing speed, quickness, and power, there's no need for the extra priority. Fox should have pretty much no priority. Oh and his shine should still hit the way it does but it should have the same lag as if you waited for it to finish.

Falco - Keep his laser (although make it about half as long), same deal with the shine, make his spike meteor cancellable, and tone down his priority. There's absolutely no reason for his Dair to be able to cut through anything in the game. That's about it.

Sheik - Completely nerf her chop (Fair) as that is the basis of her killing game. Slightly nerf the needle priority, shouldn't be cutting down plasma blasts with 1 or 2 needles. This would still make her fast, efficient at 1v1 battle, and still respectably deadly *still has Uair and Dsmash* this would allow Zelda to be used in conjunction with her, as originally planned anyway.

Marth - Keep his priority, he is a sword character and should be able to mow down attacks with a blade. Lower the power of his Fsmash, and make his Dair cancellable. Cut the hitbox range of his grab because it extends much farther than his hand depicts, At this point he would still have the potential to win but wouldn't be cheap.

Peach - ...lmao, THE DSMASH FROM HELL! Keep it's priority, knockback and speed, simply change the % damage per spin hit. I'd say make it about 6% guaranteed. SO in average you get about 3 hits off, that's 18%. Make her weaker on defense, her small frame shouldn't allow her to take so much damage, she should die along the likes of GaW/Jiggz. Her turnips need work too, if you block the turnip, that should be the end of it, why does it have to bounce up and reserve a hit for you if you try and move?

Falcon - Keep his knee power, but tune up the hit trajectory so that it knocks you more upward.

Improvements

Where do I start?

Ganondorf(Falcon too) - Massively increase the hitbox range of thier up B. Have thier aerial side B be able to grab the ledge as soon as it touches, a'la Fox/Falco side B, even if it hits.

Ness - Have him take dmg but tank attacks during his up B (to the effect of Yoshi dub-jump), and also his spark does dmg but passes through people and continues along it's path essentially making Ness' recovery rather impossible to actually prevent, but still possible to edgeguard and counterattack once he's flying. Have his PK fire still turn on fire when it hits a shield, and increase it's length of travel time. His PK flare should instantly pop the second he's interrupted from it, dealing whatever damage has been charged up with it, if it hits.

Mewtwo - Lmao..his side B..make it deal dmg...His Dsmash, make it either extremely quick with the same power, or have it be one of the most powerful Dsmashes since it's the only ONE-SIDED DSMASH. Increase his weight/durability and after that he's good.

Kirby - His side B should hit as it does at the tip, anywhere it hits. Alot tougher despite his size, since he has no maneuverability, he shouldnt be practically just as easy to kill as Jiggz. Increase the overall damage of his attacks.

Zelda - Give her better controllability with her upB, make the weak hits of her Fsmash non-DIable, Increase the hitbox diameter of her Uair. Replace her Dair with a downward version of her lightning kick, with the same power, but spike trajectory.

Yoshi - Well his upB is apparently already fixed, but how will it be? Increase the hitbox size of his Nair. Increase his recovery after you escape from his side B eggroll attack. (have him be able to attak or jump quite literally right after he pops out)

Mr. GaW - WHERE DO I START?! First off fix ALL of his hammers, I have a list of how but that's a whole nother post. Fix his shield. Make his roll/tech-roll faster. Make ALL if his aerials l-cancellable.

Too many characters to name, i'll probably finish it another time lmao.

 

[Puffs]

WHERE DO I START?!

try pressing START/PAUSE

But seriously, I agree with your thoughts on Mewtwo and Game & Watch.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Link-

-Faster Bow
-Slightly faster Attack-Speed. Nothing too drastic, but enough to where he he isn't getting interrupted by every joe-blow who has even a bit more speed than him.

And...I really can't think of anything else.

 

[red stone]

mario needs better range. his fire shouldn't have to be sweetspotted. and his recovery needs to be waaaaay better. hope the fludd is used as recovery. that would be sweet

 

[Weed]

The only buff/nerf with the game I can come up with is by strengthening the basis of tires don exits...
Other than that, I'm good.

 

[Nybb]

I don't really like the sound of anyone being nerfed; except for I suppose taking a bit away from the space animals, but not too much.

Who should be nerfed/strengthened and how?
I didn't see this anywhere so I decided to post it. Basically, list characters from melee that should be nerfed (provided they return) or improved and in what way.

Here are my lists.
-----
NERFED:
Fox&Falco-
Need more lag inbetween their moves. Less power for their smashes. Fall less quickly.

Uhh...fall less quickly? The only way most characters stand a chance against them is by being able to combo them so well because they fall right back into your hits. Slower falling would be a boost for them.

Marth-
Needs less speed in his moves.

Sheik-
More lag in between moves.

So your saying that fast characters should be slow? You know, speed isn't the only way to improve/nerf characters.
-----
EMPOWERED:
Ness-
Decent v/^ smashes. Replace neutral 'B' with PK thunder, give him an actual recovery move.

Bowser-
More speed, better ^B.

A BETTER up-B for Bowser??? How about when you push up-B Bowser just turns into seven Captain Falcons and auto-knees every opponent until they are KO'd?

Pikachu-
A tad more range.

Zelda-
More range and knockback.
More knockback for what? The moves that are essential for comboing into her power moves?

See bold in quotes.

I don't really like the sound of anyone being nerfed; except for I suppose taking a bit away from the space animals, but not too much. And certainly not slower falling for them.

 

[SiD]

The shine definitely needs to be slowed down, a 1 frame move on already quick characters is 100% unfair. I'm not talking serious nerfs, just a few more frames before the hitbox.

 

[Magnum Innominandum]

nerfed-no one

strengthened-everyone

More people should think like this guy.

 

[SiD]

If you really think no one needs to be nerfed even by a little bit, you're not playing the same Melee I am.

 

[The_Corax_King]

Mewtwo needs to be heavier, and he needs a better Down and Up B...

Mario's cape needs to be nerfed so it actually stuns so you can potentially recover...

 

[SiD]

Mario's cape is only that deadly against Ganon and to a lesser extent falcon, and that can be solved by actually allowing them to sweet spot.

Grrr, stupid Ganon and his legs.

 

[lukintosh]

Fox's shine needs to be nerfed... its been 2 games!!

Kirby, on the other hand, needs to be un-nerfed from his ssb64 state. Give him back the weight, the strength, and replace/strengthen the hammer... it's one of my favorite abilities!

And red stone's right.

 

[Mandalore]

Sheik: Weakened fair, needles have less priority
Falco: Weaker dair
Fox: Weaker uair
Samus: Missiles have less knockback
Mewtwo: More weight
Capt. Falcon: Knee causes less knockback, side-b doesn't cause him to fall off the side
Ganondorf: Side-b doesn't cause him to fall off the side
Link: Faster bow, can cancel dair and fair

 

[Demon_machinE]

Capt. Falcon: Knee causes less knockback

Blasphemy. His recovery is edgeguaradable every single time due to an almost impossible sweetspot, furthermore his weight makes him easy to combo from 0 to 100 by almost any character. His knee is entirely justified, just as his uair to up b combos were in smash 64 for the reasons listed above.

In my opinion there shouldnt be much nerfs, if you get rid of fox's shine cancel, or even the wavedash he's ruined due to his pathetically easy to combo weight, and horribly easy to edgeguard recovery.

Sheik however could use an entire moveset change, keeping her fair (IF you can DI, her fair isnt a problem. Learn to DI before suggesting changes for brawl, noobs)

But yeah I dont like how sheiks combos are automatic, requiring little effort or techchasing ability. Her downthrow shouldnt chainthrow half the cast either.

Falcon could use an alternate recovery with his side b, like a rising dragon punch a la Ryu / Ken...

Everyone in the low/bottom tier should be made way more powerful, that way everyone would be happy.

But fox/peach/marth/falco/falcon are just examples of characters done right. Brawl should strive to make all characters as fun to play as the high/top tiers, and just as powerful in their own right.

and the no flinching thing isnt going to make a difference for ike and bowser, its still going to come down to lag and which moves are safe, and which moves have the best spacing, and grab range. No flinching is the lazy mans crouch cancel, which all good bowser players abuse to no end.

 

[Noops]

I hope Peach's downsmash is nerfed. Not for any reason of balance, just because my friend uses it to great effect.

 

[red stone]

ic's need to be wobble free and everyone in the game should be able to escape a waveshine. it sucks to be link facing fox

 

[Fabiano]

Dude, there are no nerfed characters.
Only nerfed players.

 

[2007]

Peach needs to be nerfed to the point where Bowser can beat her--just like in the real games.
Marth needs to be nerfed because he's too feminine (and too good)
Roy needs empowerment because Roy is teh t0t4lz0rz pwnage
Pikachu and Dr. Mario need more range
Kirby needs to be brought to a median between his awesome 64 vetsion and his gay Melee version.
don't give a ____ 'bout anyone else.
Fox&Falco=pwn463.

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

I'll make a start on "unbreaking" the game.

Captain Falcon: Need to make the Falcon punch what it was in SSB64, minus the
over the top damage and knockback.

Sheik: Remove the chain grab by allowing large DI when reacting from
low-knockback throws. Like Marth, Shiek and Ice climbers.
Sheik: That godly fair must be killed.
Sheik: The dair, nair, bair, and uair need to be "adjusted".
Shiek: The ftilt and utilt also need to be "adjusted".
Sheik: The usmash and dsmash also need to be "adjusted".
By "adjusted", I mean reduce the damage, increase the knockback (sans ftilt),
and make the hitboxes smaller.

Pikachu: B attack is completely pointless. Needs to do at least 10%.
Pikachu: Forward B needs to be a bit more like Pichu's, but not as powerful.
Pikachu: That bair needs usefulness like in SSB64.
Pikachu: The upb needs to do perhaps 3%.

Marth: Keep his deadly air game, that takes practise to get right.
Marth: Smash B: The 3rd hit needs less knockback and more stun if the 4th is the most powerful.
Marth: Wtf is up with that mad ranged f-smash? Needs less range and smaller hitbox.
Marth: F-Smash knockback at tip needs to be reudced.
Marth: F-Smash swing needs to be a tad slower though. Not TOO much slower.
Marth: Recovery is fine as is, but could do with some ending lag.

Jigglypuff: Needs to be heavier.
Jigglypuff: Would help if it were faster.
Pichu: Should be heavier than Jigglypuff. Even if he's a baby mouse, that's no reason
for him to be lighter than a ballon for ****'s sake.

Bowser: Super armour: Suffer no stun or knockback at low %, only at higher %.
Like being metal. No real damage changes necesarry, this guy is EVIL.
Arguably, the same could be done for DK and Ganondorf.
Bowser: Needs an airdodge like everyone else.
Bowser: DSmash has more range

DK: The fair needs to be EXACTLY in between the way it was in SSB64 and
in Melee. It had almost no startup lag in SSB64, but became virtually unusable
due to an hour of startup lag. You could jump, and land before the attack executed.

Yoshi: Hover in place or move slightly when doing egg throw in the air.
Yoshi: Needs to have a better air dodge.
Yoshi: The fair needs the same treatment as DK's.
Yoshi: Have out of shield jump/wavedash
Yoshi: The dair should do an amount of damage that is in between what it did in SSB64
and what it did in melee.

Kirby: The stone needs less ending lag.
Kirby: That horribly useless uair needs to be replaced. It gets out-prioritorised
even WITH it's awful range.
Kirby: Fix all those odd sweet spots.
Kirby: Needs less suicidal tendencies, e.g. the backthrow, the uthrow and that swallow.
Enemies need to not sink down so much when escaping the mouth.
The mouth also needs to be harder to escape, cos it's fun messing around in there.
Kirby needs that slide attack from his games.
Kirby's attacks need to be a teeny tiny bit weaker than they were in SSB64.
Not completely destroyed, like in Melee.
Kirby: Additional Stun and Damage to Aerial Hammer
Kirby: Stone shield breaks (maybe like Pound), can be picked up when he is stationary and thrown, when you dash and input Bdown he does a dash attack(stone rolling move) similar to the current Melee one.
Kirby: Ground Hammer does heavy damage to Shield, OR is slightly faster.

Also, liking that "friend for Kirby" idea.

Ness: Needs the upB the way it was in SSB64.
Ness: The yo-yo glitch = gone.
Ness: Needs his yoyo from SSB64. That was nerfed into oblivion.
Ness: Lethal dash A needs to make a triumphant return from Melee.

Mewtwo: More like he was in the animé: Powerful.
Mewtwo: The charge ball is easy to dodge, weak, and takes time to charge.
Mewtwo: Needs a dair with a bigger hitbox.
Mewtwo: Needs to be heavier. He's actually pretty big.
Mewtwo: Trying to copy shiek's godly fair were you? Didn't work, did it.
Mewtwo: Needs more useful neutral a attacks, Usmash and Dsmash.
Mewtwo: SideB changes so that the reflected object becomes a shield for mewtwo (think like mario kart 64 where the triple shells rotate around him) Side b could also be
used to fire the item.
Mewtwo: Side B needs less startup lag to be useful if this is it's effect.
Another item can be picked up if an item is already surrounding Mewtwo from the side B.

DK: BDown has more range and can be cancelled faster for aerial juggles.
DK: Headbutt(BSide) should come out A LITTLE faster.

If anything, Mewtwo SHOULD be god-like.

Fox: The shine shouldn't jump/fall cancel.
Fox: The shine needs at least 2 extra frames of ending lag.
Fox: Make the Fsmash and Usmash less abusable by reducing
damage on the fsmash, and knockback on the Usmash.

Mario: Keep his moves, range and speed, but with Dr. Mario's power and knockback.
Mario's cape is more useful for recovery than Dr's

Peach: Killer 50% Dsmash must go.
Peach: HUT-CHAA must be de-prioritorised.
Peach: Nair's knockback reduced.
Zelda: Nair more Knock Back and range.
Zelda: Din's Fire explosion does more damage and spikes =D
Zelda: U Air stronger, and buff the Dair
Peach, Zelda and Bowser need a better air-dodge.

Luigi: Fireball becomes stronger
Luigi: have a fully charged missle have a similar affect to Miss Fire.

Link: Bow's start up faster.
Link: Allow 3 angle aiming of the bow.

Samus: Needs a more useful UpSmash, and similarly improved fair,
like they were in SSB64, only not THAT powerful.
Samus: Decrease knockback and increase damage from the Fsmash.

Ganondorf: Warlock Punch should be made more like Falcon Punch 64, but stronger.
There, now Ganondorf has at least ONE advantage besides strength over Captain Falcon.
Ganondorf: Make his utilt different, so it can be used in competitive play.

Falcon Punch and Warlock Punch should be cancelable by doing another attack.

I think I have it all covered.

 

[TheMastermind]

I think top tier charicters like Fox or Marth should not be nerfed.
It makes the game alot better playing with faster characters.
I think all the other characters should have increaced speed or damage or defence,
to bring them up to the level of play that Fox or Marth already have.

 

[SiD]

You're wrong, though. A slower charactrer will always have trouble getting to Marth, because of his insane range + speed. For Fox, his Shine is too fast. It needs to be slowed by only a few frames, to make it more fair.

 

[Team Giza]

I think top tier charicters like Fox or Marth should not be nerfed.
It makes the game alot better playing with faster characters.
I think all the other characters should have increaced speed or damage or defence,
to bring them up to the level of play that Fox or Marth already have.

I say nerf the top ones. Making the game more calculative than it was in melee would be nice. I don't want to see a game thats full of combos that are nearly 0 to death being pulled off all the time.