Who is actually trying to get better?

[Adam M!]

falcon v falco: this all comes down to nair imo. as soon as you get falco on the ground it's done. you just gotta be very patient and let falco control the match. then hit him once and take the stock. the cool thing is that falcon is a threat to 0-death at any percent, so as long as you're on the stage you're not out of it. nair out of shield and uair out of shield help a lot. the tech chase until 60% and knee is textbook, good stuff.

falcon v sheik: gotta dash dance like a pro, but keep in mind you still have to approach. sheik mains by nature are campy *******s, and they have projectiles and you don't. since sheik is campy, she's going to wd back a lot of your approach, so overshoot your nair a lot. that will **** them. like any matchup with falcon, it's all about the nair, but especially in this case.

you have to play really carefully, because this is a matchup where if either character hits the other, they're probably losing their stock assuming the players are at a high level. for sheik's tech chases, above 30% (i think it's 34 to be exact, something around there), always miss your tech so the sheik is tempted to jab. DI the jab up and run away; it's your best chance to get out of her gay tech chase. raptor boost and reverse jab are also decent ways to get out, although most of the time you're stuck and dead.

uthrow knee works at like 70% i think (?) but until edge guarding percent you'd probably want to uair first anyway. you just gotta have great timing out of the uthrow because sheik can DI away and spam fair and knock you out of your move a good chunk of the time if you're slow.

but for the most part you know the fundamentals of the matchup. from there it's just experience

 

[Nasty_Nate]

eh Kheffin, you gotta be careful with posting things like that. You may be asking for advice, but it seems like your telling people who know the game really well about the match-up when your a new player yourself (I assume)

In other words, make your posts seem like your asking for advice instead of stating how a matchup works

Makes you seem like a player who wants to get better instead of a know-it-all noob


Also I am truly trying to get better, but my tech skill is holding me back alot (sad since I play sheik). I do have some controller johns, but thats no excuse

I think if I did the moves I wanted to do, and didn't mess up my spacing, I would be much better (by this I mean I have a pretty good idea of what to do in most situations, but my execution is off)

 

[Kheffin]

eh Kheffin, you gotta be careful with posting things like that. You may be asking for advice, but it seems like your telling people who know the game really well about the match-up when your a new player yourself (I assume)

In other words, make your posts seem like your asking for advice instead of stating how a matchup works

Makes you seem like a player who wants to get better instead of a know-it-all noob

Because playing the best peach on the West Coast probably more than anyone else on this board makes me totally bad at the matchup. And have you seen the Marth board on advice for Peach? "Marth's sword beats all of Peach's moves."

And judging skill based on post count/join date is amazing.

Durrr- I'll respond a little bit later, but I have class soon. I'll concede that I've forgotten about f+b utilt since it doesn't work too well vs Puff, and I've never really tried it vs Peach. If you can show me where grabs are gamebreaking without bad DI involved, I'd like to see it though. I just re-watched M2k vs Armada (ignoring the match on Mute), and Armada consistently lives higher than M2k. I dunno if I'm just going to get trolled again for this post, but whatever.

 

[MacD]

granted i've never really played super great marth mains, i think peach out lives marth, espeically if you can edge guard better than armada did vs m2k

there was one tourney i played mango a lot vs his marth, i'd live to 250+ on dreamland, i can survive till at least like 160 on FD, the only way i don't is if i get caught but side b> up tilt, spiked, or "random" tipper, which rarely happens because i don't put myself in situations to get hit by that stuff

i agree with like 90% of what adam said though, stay in her range and punish and turnip pull, as long as you do it fast enough f throw can combo for sure up till 100, and i'm think higher after that

 

[BobbySiege]

My entire play is based around patience, so I have that part down. Thanks for the advice on getting tech chased by Sheik because more than once the tech chasing has destroyed my lead. Goo-sheez.

 

[Kheffin]

Re-read my post, did sound a lot like complaining. Probably because I didn't mention any of Marth's strengths in the matchup. I'll apologize for that.

On Dsmash- It's not the percent that bothers me. It's the fact that it shieldstabs non-light shields a lot, and knocks you far enough away that Peach has the opportunity to pull a turnip again. Theoretically I can keep Peach close enough and never give her space to get a turnip, but in actual gameplay it's going to happen. I know it must sound like I'm massively overemphasizing turnips, but they are seriously not as easy as "swing your sword at turnips" to get around. When they get 30-50% per stock on you entirely through turnips, you really want to figure out how to get around them semi-reliably, and not "don't let them pull turnips."

On shieldgrabbing- Fair enough.

On building percentage faster- That's not really that important if you can't kill her anyways. If I bring Peach from 0-100 in 10 seconds but I can't kill her, it's going to take me forever to build the last 50-60% to kill her since only one hit at a time at that percent anyways. I mean, I live up to 150%+ on my stocks a lot too, but after 100ish I'm sent flying off the stage by any real hit, which is a lot worse position for Marth to be in than Peach.

And I am 100% sure you can't combo off Marth's fthrow after 100. DI-ing away? at 50-60 will put you out of range of wd fsmash, dash attack, fair, dash dtilt, and regrab. Might be wrong on the direction of the DI, but I know it's definitely possible to get away from.

 

[The Greater Leon]

i love vs peach. just hit that *****

 

[NintendoKing]

I'm still not ok with bobby siege beating me.

20$ MM Little Boy Siege.

 

[joeplicate]

bobby siege do you really have swine flu??

that's badass

 

[Kouryuu]

Connor, I'll give you some tips vs Marth the next time I see you. Don't listen to that Kheffin guy. Or better yet, watch Vidjo. His Marth game is ridiculous.

Because playing the best peach on the West Coast probably more than anyone else on this board makes me totally bad at the matchup.

Who do you play.. ?

 

[TheLifeRuiner]

Who do you play.. ?

\After losing a million games of Marth vs Peach to Paul, I do not see how Marth has 7-3 vs Peach (can expand on this if asked I guess).

yeah

10char

 

[pockyD]

Who do you play.. ?

are you trying to suggest that the best peach on the west coast isn't obvious -_-

 

[The Greater Leon]

bobby siege do you really have swine flu??

that's badass

swine flu can do terrible things to a man

 

[Kouryuu]

are you trying to suggest that the best peach on the west coast isn't obvious -_-

Didn't he quit Smash for Street Fighter? It's why I asked.

After losing a million games of Marth vs Peach to Paul, I do not see how Marth has 7-3 vs Peach (can expand on this if asked I guess).

Are you suggesting that you're on Pauls level.. ? Not to mention, Pauls isn't anything special vs Marth from what I've seen. Doesn't say much about your skill, now does it.

 

[Atlus8]

LOL, wow, what a big deal! a dsmash is one hit and you can't combo out of it. that's a big reason marth beats peach -- he lives longer than her! peach can't kill him

Peach can sure as hell kill Marth! Also, Marth sure as hell doesn't live longer than Peach!

 

[The___cheese]

I love how Kheffin's better than half the people talking to him like he's an idiot.

 

[ConnorTheKid]

how do you know he's better than half the people talkign to him? I'm really curious.

 

[The___cheese]

Cause some of the people don't place very well.

 

[joeplicate]

kheffin's legit, he beat luninspectra at his 1st tournament

 

[ConnorTheKid]

Cause some of the people don't place very well.

hahaha okay. placing means everything doesn't it?

 

[Nasty_Nate]

And judging skill based on post count/join date is amazing.

I'll concede that I've forgotten about f+b utilt since it doesn't work too well vs Puff, and I've never really tried it vs Peach.

I didnt even judge your skill, I just saw the comments you were making (like the bold for example) and was warning you that to some people you might come off sounding like a complainer, but u apologized so its cool

also f+b utilt ***** vs puff, other floaties, and any character at really high percents

 

[Kouryuu]

Cause some of the people don't place very well.

lol

 

[Adam M!]

On Dsmash- johns

if you can't kill her anyways.

there's no point continuing this back and forth because you have a defeatist mindset and you're just gonna john everything

And I am 100% sure you can't combo off Marth's fthrow after 100.

someone didn't watch cactuar v cort

anyway thanks for derailing the topic (with my help of course)

let's continue on with the productive course this thread was taking (don't worry, i'll ignore any more related -- or non-related -- derailment)

 

[DJMirror]

And I am 100% sure you can't combo off Marth's fthrow after 100.

wow you're stupid

Marth's Fthrow to WD to Fsmash to peach around 100ish

I think it works on puff? around 80? I need to test this out on psychomidget (if he plays puff)




Congrats. now you can kill peach.


Also watch Cactuar vs Ryoko

 

[Cactuar]

If Peach DI's any direction other than one going up at high percent, a near frame perfect wd forward fsmash will connect.

 

[Nashun]

At least explain for the curious what happens when Peach DI's up.

 

[SuperRad]

you miss

 

[bbb]

If Peach DI's any direction other than one going up at high percent, a near frame perfect wd forward fsmash will connect.

I've been seeing a lot of that avatar lately

 

[Fabian]

i've been trying to improve my peach
mainly contributing stuff to my game that ive seen thru paul and armada vids

 

[Kira-]

I really want to get better but at the moment I'm trying to balance the rest of my life as well. I put a lot of time and effort into smash for awhile so I gotta get everything else sorted out now.

On the other hand I am always thinking about ways I could improve my game no matter what I am doing. This tends to help a lot. Even though I'm just playing Cameron or whoever all the time I still get to practice things like wavedashing into shield after my techs to mess up their spacing, staying mobile so it's harder for them to space (instead of being dumb and sitting in my shield all day and letting them space themselves properly), etc etc. I also try to give hints to Cam while I play so that he can beat me back and I can figure out more ways to beat more things. It really helps that Cam is a smart player and knows the game well enough to apply almost anything into his game immediately- I'm pretty lucky to have a good training partner that way. However at the same time I realize that we know each others' habits so well that there's not much in the way of adapting to a completely new style- but we've practiced those little situations so often that we know what to switch to once we can recognize what our opponent is using.


*Note* - There would be a lot of practical use for terminology for this stuff. Like each "situation" and what "things" to switch to and stuff like that. I always think of a marth falling from the air against a dashdancing fox. that's one situation and there are a million "things" that both characters could do to try and win the situation.


just last night I watched my set with zhu and analyzed it because I was really lost as to how I even approach falco (and because Stab did my APM for the first match =P). So I learned a lot about my game in like 20 minutes. I'm also completely convinced that camping, while it's my natural disposition and talent to do so, is counter-productive in terms of trying to improve. So as I'm driving somewhere or walking around campus I go over ways to approach with Sheik. I replay what I've seen Mango do, how Mew2King begins all his matches, ways around what M2K does and ways around the way around it.

one problem though is that my knuckles are starting to hurt. this is probably a combination of 4-5 different things I do that take a toll on my joints but it makes me not want to play very much.

That alot of time you put in, The Great Leon. I only practice 2 hours the most with Jkun, Kira and Psychomidget. My Sheik and Fox will get to Jkun's level soon! With Kira's help, everything is possible! It's just within reach. All you have to do is look, reach and take it with your own bloody hands!

Just a couple more grammar errors and you could've been at Jkun's level.

fixed

Also I am truly trying to get better, but my tech skill is holding me back alot (sad since I play sheik). I do have some controller johns, but thats no excuse

I think if I did the moves I wanted to do, and didn't mess up my spacing, I would be much better (by this I mean I have a pretty good idea of what to do in most situations, but my execution is off)

warm up for a long time before your matches
this solves a lot of my problems as I tend to play freakin amazing by the end of the day (if i'm not tired). then the problem becomes a matter of getting there on time. much easier

Also spacing is hard- if you have good spacing you're just a good player. bad spacing doesn't mean you "messed up".

 

[Adam M!]

kira you are 100% right about being aggressive

i've also been trying to make myself do it for a while but it's HARD. i am just naturally campy. i swear though as i get totally comfortable with my fox, in all my friendlies i'm just going to run in and be aggressive as *** no matter what

that said though, sheik is meant to be played defensively imo. i have also come to believe that just running right at someone is sheik's best approach a la drephen.

ps to approach against falco, nair. that's all mango does and while it sounds stupid, it really freakin works.

and warming up wouldn't work for emil, his tech skill is just that godawful. he needs to get the game and practice, and until he does i won't be truly convinced he wants to get better

 

[Kira-]

that said though, sheik is meant to be played defensively imo. i have also come to believe that just running right at someone is sheik's best approach a la drephen.

ps to approach against falco, nair. that's all mango does and while it sounds stupid, it really freakin works.

lol. i've been trying to run straight at people less. that's all i do to approach, i really need to change it and be less predictable with it. some people camp until they see me start to run, at which point they immediately attack me.

and yeah i need to nair more. but the spacing to do it is pretty precise. either i have to nair to interrupt the laser or nair over the laser, and in both cases i need to be at the right distance. i'm not comfortable with this distance because i'm always worried about either falco attacking me first, or falco backing away so that they laser my nair then get their opening. so i guess that takes a lot of reading skills

 

[Kouryuu]

lol. i've been trying to run straight at people less. that's all i do to approach, i really need to change it and be less predictable with it. some people camp until they see me start to run, at which point they immediately attack me.

You really don't have to. That's the beauty of running straight at them with Sheik. You can run up > Shield and punish them if they miss space their attacks, run up > WD/short hop back and punish if you predict a short hop approach, etc.

You can keep running up all you want since you have many options to work with out of your dash. Not only do you cover ridiculous amount of space but you pretty much put your opponent at the guessing end of what your going to do next.

For example: P would run straight at me when I'm at high percent. I'm obviously looking out for a grab, so when P's Sheik is in boost grab range, I sidestep and he baits it by short hopping back and Fairing me. It's a really nice bait that I've seen many Peach players fall for when they're at high percent.

Long story short: Running straight at them with Sheik is ****.

Correct me if I'm wrong or anything. Just some notes I take when I watch Drepen vids.

 

[Nashun]

I don't really know how Peach plays, but is sidestepping the best option when you predict a grab?

 

[Adam M!]

lol. i've been trying to run straight at people less. that's all i do to approach, i really need to change it and be less predictable with it. some people camp until they see me start to run, at which point they immediately attack me.

less predictable with it, yes. change it? kind of. just add in some tricks. fox trot more. just vary it up.

the great thing about running right at someone is you can do anything you want to **** their response to you. if they throw out an attack when they see you running, shield or wd back. meanwhile you have amazing offensive options like boost grab and dash attack. if they start spot doding those you just run, shield and punish. if they jump to run away then you jump and fair. it's freaking amazing.

but the spacing to do it is pretty precise.

autocancel it

 

[Kira-]

less predictable with it, yes. change it? kind of. just add in some tricks. fox trot more. just vary it up.

then it's no longer "running straight at them". it's not running at them any more than running close to them and dashdancing back is running at them; it's just another bait

the great thing about running right at someone is you can do anything you want to **** their response to you. if they throw out an attack when they see you running, shield or wd back. meanwhile you have amazing offensive options like boost grab and dash attack. if they start spot doding those you just run, shield and punish. if they jump to run away then you jump and fair. it's freaking amazing.

this is the same as any other approach. i dont see how it's different with any other character. mango runs in at the opponent to shield (at the right spacing of course) with almost everyone, it's the same thing

autocancel it

doesnt matter if they time a laser to hit you right before you land. or if you overshoot the nair, they can shine out of shield or grab (or upsmash or any aerial). spacing determines everything. but if i do land, then yeah this works

 

[BobbySiege]

I'm still not ok with bobby siege beating me.

20$ MM Little Boy Siege.

Lol. I remember that. I say no hard feelings. I'll still MM you for pride purposes though.

As long as it's all handshakes and no hard feelings after the match, I'll MM you for something less than $20. Also, **** talk is most definitely allowed, but only from one to another. None of this posse sheez. I always get a laugh from your **** talk.

 

[The Greater Leon]

m2k vs vidjo from a few weeks ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsV4S5ZrvNI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYTHRtT2v44

 

[Lovage]

the more you move the better, going slow is bad 87% of the time

i learned this from link in ssb64

 

[SuperRad]

Lol. I remember that. I say no hard feelings. I'll still MM you for pride purposes though.

As long as it's all handshakes and no hard feelings after the match, I'll MM you for something less than $20. Also, **** talk is most definitely allowed, but only from one to another. None of this posse sheez. I always get a laugh from your **** talk.

i am a part of nk's posse and i will not back down