Who are the cut-veterans and newcomers with the best and worst tier potential?

[QuintonShark8714]

This is just opinion and observation, but some cut-veterans and newcomer characters do seem to have better tier potential than others.
The full list of returning cut-veterans and newcomers, for reference:
Ice Climbers
Pichu
Young Link
Snake
Pokemon Trainer (alongside Squirtle and Ivysaur)
Wolf

Inkling
Daisy (echo of Peach)
Ridley
Simon
Richter (echo of Simon)
Chrom (echo of Roy)
Dark Samus (echo of Samus)
King K. Rool
Isabelle
Ken (echo of Ryu)
Incineroar

Piranha Plant is too early to judge

My opinion for high-tier or maybe top-tier (tho the latter is a bit of a stretch) potentially: Inkling, Simon/Ricther, Ken, Snake, and Young Link
My opinion for mid-tier potentially: Pokemon Trainer, Daisy, Ridley, King K. Rool, Isabelle, Ice Climbers, and Wolf
My opinion for low-tier or worse bottom-tier pontentially: Pichu, Chrom, Dark Samus, and Incineroar

IMO, people are overestimating Pokemon Trainer and King K. Rool, as well as Zelda, Ike and Roy (i could potentially be wrong on any of these)
remember what happened to Smash 4 Bowser pre-launch and Smash 4 Bayo post-patch?

 

[Izanagi97]

I honestly think people are sleeping on Chrom just because of his recovery

 

[Arrei]

- For cut vets, Yink and Pichu look like they have potential to me, as fast characters with good kits, though how successfully Yink will be able to play keepaway in Ultimate's engine where you don't get to airdodge for free remains to be seen IMO.

-For new characters, Ken won't be too far from Ryu so both are disgustingly strong. K. Rool looks good, but people like to mention his armored moves like Nair a lot and I feel like the armor breaking mechanic may lead to his armor ending up a weakness instead of a strength against more aggressive players, especially those using a disjoint or projectile character who can bait and chip at the armor more safely, making those moves a liability instead of an asset.

 

[Deleted member]

I honestly think people are sleeping on Chrom just because of his recovery

I wouldn't necessarily say Chrom is bad, he has an INCREDIBLY good ground game, but...

One gimp and he's over. Literally just a B/F-throw and a solid hit from an aerial and he's done

 

[Izanagi97]

I wouldn't necessarily say Chrom is bad, he has an INCREDIBLY good ground game, but...

One gimp and he's over. Literally just a B/F-throw and a solid hit from an aerial and he's done

Except Chrom can still air dodge towards the stage (if his second jump wasn't used) and recover from below since Soaring Slash (which has super armor and a nasty spike) goes quite high and Chrom can make it under the stage pretty easily due to having Roy's air speed (which is only beaten by 3 characters). I saw one guy who was labbing Chrom via 1v1 matches drag do some crazy off stage **** against K Rool.

This is starting to sound eerily similar to the early impressions of Cloud when he first came out as DLC in Smash 4.

 

[Deleted member]

Except Chrom can still air dodge towards the stage (if his second jump wasn't used) and recover from below since Soaring Slash (which has super armor and a nasty spike) goes quite high and Chrom can make it under the stage pretty easily due to having Roy's air speed (which is only beaten by 3 characters). I saw one guy who was labbing Chrom via 1v1 matches drag do some crazy off stage **** against K Rool.

This is starting to sound eerily similar to the early impressions of Cloud when he first came out as DLC in Smash 4.

DAD is super laggy though and an easy punish, so using it for recovery isn't a very good idea especially if you've already air dodged a lot

Also Cloud has Limit Climhazzard which at least turns his bad recovery into a situationally good one (though Limit is being nerfed so idk anymore)

 

[Arrei]

A much more apt comparison is Little Mac, whose viability did end up hamstrung by his recovery. Climhazzard isn't a good recovery, but I think having Aether as his sole option is even worse. His fall speed means he'll be forced to air dodge to avoid opponents challenging him offstage even at low percents, or else he'll be gimped by just about any hit. This also forces him to use Soaring Slash, which like Aether is too long of a move. It may have armor on startup but is also exceedingly vulnerable to any hitboxes thrown between him and the apex when he initiates the jump portion. The opponent can also stay on stage and spike him at the apex, prepare certain projectiles to finish him during the lengthy animation, repel the spinning attack with a counter move, or, the one that haunts me to this day, push him right off the stage with FLUDD, Hydro Pump, or Water Gun, if Aether's vulnerabilities from Smash 4 carried over. And this situation will repeat every single time Chrom gets thrown offstage because he has no other options.

I think it's also worth noting that Cloud himself may end up in this situation a lot more frequently than in 4 as well, by nature of the fact he can't airdodge for free while recovering. Besides only getting one airdodge, they carry more endlag than they used to and directional dodges have even more, potentially making Climhazzard unable to reach the ledge if he uses one - stuck between a rock and a hard blast zone.

 

[Idon]

DAD is super laggy though and an easy punish, so using it for recovery isn't a very good idea especially if you've already air dodged a lot

Also Cloud has Limit Climhazzard which at least turns his bad recovery into a situationally good one (though Limit is being nerfed so idk anymore)

He'll still have it for 15 seconds after "getting" it so that's plenty of time he could possibly use it. Limit usually doesn't last more than ten seconds to begin with anyways.

 

[Izanagi97]

A much more apt comparison is Little Mac, whose viability did end up hamstrung by his recovery. Climhazzard isn't a good recovery, but I think having Aether as his sole option is even worse. His fall speed means he'll be forced to air dodge to avoid opponents challenging him offstage even at low percents, or else he'll be gimped by just about any hit. This also forces him to use Soaring Slash, which like Aether is too long of a move. It may have armor on startup but is also exceedingly vulnerable to any hitboxes thrown between him and the apex when he initiates the jump portion. The opponent can also stay on stage and spike him at the apex, prepare certain projectiles to finish him during the lengthy animation, repel the spinning attack with a counter move, or, the one that haunts me to this day, push him right off the stage with FLUDD, Hydro Pump, or Water Gun, if Aether's vulnerabilities from Smash 4 carried over. And this situation will repeat every single time Chrom gets thrown offstage because he has no other options.

I think it's also worth noting that Cloud himself may end up in this situation a lot more frequently than in 4 as well, by nature of the fact he can't airdodge for free while recovering. Besides only getting one airdodge, they carry more endlag than they used to and directional dodges have even more, potentially making Climhazzard unable to reach the ledge if he uses one - stuck between a rock and a hard blast zone.

Except Little Mac is not a good comparison because I'm pretty sure he was held back by more than just a really bad recovery (some examples being easy to combo for a lightweight, most of his moves being unsafe on shield, and having the worst air game of any character).

 

[Sabertooth]

Off topic but related, it's quite a shame that Chrom and Ken turned out to be the only echo fighters with differences worth mentioning. I love the little differences you'd normally find in clones like Young Link and Falco, so it's disappointing not to see those discrepancies in Daisy, Dark Samus, and Richter Belmont.

 

[Deleted member]

Off topic but related, it's quite a shame that Chrom and Ken turned out to be the only echo fighters with differences worth mentioning. I love the little differences you'd normally find in clones like Young Link and Falco, so it's disappointing not to see those discrepancies in Daisy, Dark Samus, and Richter Belmont.

Damus has a better up smash then Samus, doesn't she?

 

[maxistrife]

Zelda, Ike's and Roy's changes make them a bit scary, and I will not go easy on players playing them. I feel K Rool is going to be a monster in the right hands and I will not underestimate one of those either. I think the Belmonts are a tad clunky and easy to play around with a faster character, but slower, heavier characters will have a hard time against them. My biggest worry is Ridley, because he is HUGE, but he is mid weight...maybe even the lower end of mid weight. Even if he is fast and powerful, what good will that be if Jigglypuff can 100% land rest on his behemoth sized frame with that low weight XD

 

[zeldasmash]

These are my opinions.

: Hard to judge but I think since desyncing isn't as easy to do as in Brawl (it's been shown that it is possible), they will be placed low for a while until someone manages to make desyncing work in a competitive environment.
: Massively improved from Brawl. Down B being so many times faster allows for more creative combos and control of neutral depending on the Pokemon and all of them have situations where they excel at. Probably high tier, though I can see some counter-play.
: He's been called top tier for quite a bit by a lot of players. I think if he truly ends up top tier, I don't think he'll stay in it for long. Will probably still end up in the higher section of the tiers.
: I think this guy is a sleeper character. His air mobility is amazing and due to the general lack of lag in aerials in this game, his combo game will probably be better then others. High tier at least.
: Nerfed from Brawl but I wouldn't count him out. C4 is too much of a threat once stuck and will basically give Snake complete control of the neutral at that point. I also think he'll be one of the deadliest characters in the ledge due to being unable to be passed through shield, making his tech chase throws more deadly or giving him a free C4 stick. I think he'll be high tier, but among the lower section of it.
: I think they'll be high tier due to their decent mobility and ink neutral. Due to the ink, everyone will have to play A LOT more defensively in a game that is based on aggression. I think other zoners can reliably counter play them, though (Link, Mewtwo, etc).
: Basically will be on the same level as Peach which is said to be high at the moment.
: Has some good things about him (being a pretty fast heavy is a good trait to have, good edge-guarding and a Down B that can switch the momentum instantly in his favor if it connects) but I think he'll be in the mid tier section. Combo food for a lot of the cast due to having the largest frame in the game and his recovery is very easy to edge-guard.
: Either lower end of high or highest end of mid tier. Anti-zoners by design and can do their job effectively and will be nightmares for lower mobility characters, but fast characters can make mincemeat of them due to them being pretty slow themselves.
: Easily would be one of the best characters in the game were it not for his recovery but even then he is still one of the scariest characters to challenge in neutral due to how safe his pressure is (his aerials are all safe and from what I hear is Up Aerial is bonkers). Up B is a good OoS option, especially after a parry, with a free 22%, has really damaging combos and seems to have ways to confirm them into his kill moves. I think he'll be among the high tiers and if patches buff his horizontal recovery, consider him an easy top tier.
: Will be the same as Samus and I think they will be in the mid tier section. Buffed missiles help her in the camping section, Charge Shot now being air chargeable gives her a more threatening neutral and edge-guard game and now has a kill throw + a faster grab. Problems are that she has lost some of her combo set ups, particularly with Dash Attack which makes racking up damage harder in theory.
: Can see really high in the beginning, but I think will drop throughout the metagame. He definitely has some really good stuff (a counter for a heavy is pretty good, Neutral B is a solid projectile that can be comboed into, decent mobility for a heavyweight) but I think he'll see some decrease once people play enough against him to develop counter-play, particularly in exploiting his super amor.
: Tricky to judge but will probably end around the same as Village though I think a little higher.
: Same lane as Ryu. Slightly weaker then Ryu but having mobility in this game is much appreciative. Both will be high tier, maybe top tier (especially in Ryu's case due to how bonkers his damage seems to be).
: Low tier, if not bottom. Terrible recovery, worst mobility in the game, seems to have pretty bad range, absolutely no way to deal with edge-guarding and due to bad range, doesn't seem to have any good neutral options either. He's probably looking as the single worst character in the game right now.

EDIT: Whoops, forgot Pichu. XD: Pichu looks very promising. The buffs Pichu received help it out a lot in giving it a very deadly rushdown game and in a game where aggression is favored, this really benefits it. Having a move that consistently trips makes it very scary up close because if that thing hits you, it's a free anything. I think Pichu is in the high tier section, however I'm not sure if for long or how long it will take to get there because of Pikachu (kinda like how Lucina was in Smash 4).

 

[QuintonShark8714]

These are my opinions.

: Hard to judge but I think since desyncing isn't as easy to do as in Brawl (it's been shown that it is possible), they will be placed low for a while until someone manages to make desyncing work in a competitive environment.
: Massively improved from Brawl. Down B being so many times faster allows for more creative combos and control of neutral depending on the Pokemon and all of them have situations where they excel at. Probably high tier, though I can see some counter-play.
: He's been called top tier for quite a bit by a lot of players. I think if he truly ends up top tier, I don't think he'll stay in it for long. Will probably still end up in the higher section of the tiers.
: I think this guy is a sleeper character. His air mobility is amazing and due to the general lack of lag in aerials in this game, his combo game will probably be better then others. High tier at least.
: Nerfed from Brawl but I wouldn't count him out. C4 is too much of a threat once stuck and will basically give Snake complete control of the neutral at that point. I also think he'll be one of the deadliest characters in the ledge due to being unable to be passed through shield, making his tech chase throws more deadly or giving him a free C4 stick. I think he'll be high tier, but among the lower section of it.
: I think they'll be high tier due to their decent mobility and ink neutral. Due to the ink, everyone will have to play A LOT more defensively in a game that is based on aggression. I think other zoners can reliably counter play them, though (Link, Mewtwo, etc).
: Basically will be on the same level as Peach which is said to be high at the moment.
: Has some good things about him (being a pretty fast heavy is a good trait to have, good edge-guarding and a Down B that can switch the momentum instantly in his favor if it connects) but I think he'll be in the mid tier section. Combo food for a lot of the cast due to having the largest frame in the game and his recovery is very easy to edge-guard.
: Either lower end of high or highest end of mid tier. Anti-zoners by design and can do their job effectively and will be nightmares for lower mobility characters, but fast characters can make mincemeat of them due to them being pretty slow themselves.
: Easily would be one of the best characters in the game were it not for his recovery but even then he is still one of the scariest characters to challenge in neutral due to how safe his pressure is (his aerials are all safe and from what I hear is Up Aerial is bonkers). Up B is a good OoS option, especially after a parry, with a free 22%, has really damaging combos and seems to have ways to confirm them into his kill moves. I think he'll be among the high tiers and if patches buff his horizontal recovery, consider him an easy top tier.
: Will be the same as Samus and I think they will be in the mid tier section. Buffed missiles help her in the camping section, Charge Shot now being air chargeable gives her a more threatening neutral and edge-guard game and now has a kill throw + a faster grab. Problems are that she has lost some of her combo set ups, particularly with Dash Attack which makes racking up damage harder in theory.
: Can see really high in the beginning, but I think will drop throughout the metagame. He definitely has some really good stuff (a counter for a heavy is pretty good, Neutral B is a solid projectile that can be comboed into, decent mobility for a heavyweight) but I think he'll see some decrease once people play enough against him to develop counter-play, particularly in exploiting his super amor.
: Tricky to judge but will probably end around the same as Village though I think a little higher.
: Same lane as Ryu. Slightly weaker then Ryu but having mobility in this game is much appreciative. Both will be high tier, maybe top tier (especially in Ryu's case due to how bonkers his damage seems to be).
: Low tier, if not bottom. Terrible recovery, worst mobility in the game, seems to have pretty bad range, absolutely no way to deal with edge-guarding and due to bad range, doesn't seem to have any good neutral options either. He's probably looking as the single worst character in the game right now.

your forgot Pichu

either edit your post (with a notice that you edited it) or do a response

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I honestly think people are sleeping on Chrom just because of his recovery

It's worse than Ike's and Ike's recovery is pathetic. They have good reason to, especially since he doesn't have Ike's side B.

 

[Rocketjay8]

It's worse than Ike's and Ike's recovery is pathetic. They have good reason to, especially since he doesn't have Ike's side B.

this man can recover that low from the blastzone and still have some height over the stage with up b

airdodge broke pic.twitter.com/RqTz5lXBhP

— james @ MAGfest (@Rivers3k) November 28, 2018

I think that people are vastly overrating how bad his recovery is.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Incineroar isn't bottom tier lol. Ridiculously good moves all around, even his recovery is genuinely decent because he can mix it up and side b apparently barely has any recovery so he can act out of it very fast. Really good frame data and reversal options makes him good in close quarters, and also got good disadvantage between armor on up b, revenge, frame 5 nair and lariat. His specials are busted, his buttons are busted, his throws are busted and his damage output is busted.

His mobility is atrocious but he probably bodies anyone that can't zone him out. Don't wanna see anyone here counting this character out.

 

[Arrei]

I think that people are vastly overrating how bad his recovery is.

When people say Ike's recovery isn't good, they're not talking about the raw distance he travels. In that regard, Quick Draw and Aether are pretty good. They're talking instead about how Ike only has linear options, and one requires charging in a vulnerable state while the other has a variety of weaknesses like all the ones I listed before. And also Quick Draw was a finicky piece of trash with whiffing deadzones the size of a continent who programmed these hitboxes hragrhagrhagrgh

Now you have Chrom, and he has even less options. With only Soaring Slash to rely on, he cannot mix up his recovery. That trajectory you see him taking to recover in the clip is more or less his ONLY recovery path. He cannot choose to go high, he cannot vary his timing to throw off his opponent, and if his air jump is challenged, he must airdodge or risk getting gimped by the flimsiest of trades... and lest we forget, airdodges have been nerfed hard and now have more endlag than many aerial moves. This in turn makes it easy for mobile characters to knock him out of his recovery now that he has no choice but to use Soaring Slash, or for other characters to bait out an airdodge and punish. In this Twitter clip, Chrom even burned his airdodge to get some extra distance, which put him at serious risk. If Pichu hadn't decided to chase after him using Skull Bash (?????) for some inconceivable reason, that would have been the easiest gimp in the world.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

this man can recover that low from the blastzone and still have some height over the stage with up b

airdodge broke pic.twitter.com/RqTz5lXBhP

— james @ MAGfest (@Rivers3k) November 28, 2018

I think that people are vastly overrating how bad his recovery is.

He can use side B to delay fall? I thought they removed that, guess I was wrong. my bad.

 

[Arrei]

He can use side B to delay fall? I thought they removed that, guess I was wrong. my bad.

I'm fairly certain he used an upward airdodge to get that initial upward boost. Hence the "airdodge broke" part of the tweet.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I'm fairly certain he used an upward airdodge to get that initial upward boost. Hence the "airdodge broke" part of the tweet.

Notice how right before he used up B he used side B to stop all horizontal motion. That's what I'mm talking about.

 

[Arrei]

Notice how tight before he used up B he used side B to stop all horizontal motion. That's what I'mm talking about.

Oh, that IS his Up Special. Chrom doesn't throw his sword like in Ike's Aether, he uses a quick strike that knocks the opponent upward then jumps to chase his opponent with the spinning attack.

Which I'm now realizing also means he can't protect his flank with a backwards sword toss against edgeguards. Oof.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Oh, that IS his Up Special. Chrom doesn't throw his sword like in Ike's Aether, he uses a quick strike that knocks the opponent upward then jumps to chase his opponent with the spinning attack.

Which I'm now realizing also means he can't protect his flank with a backwards sword toss against edgeguards. Oof.

Whoops. I thought Chrom's Up B was Ike's but with no horizontal movement.