Which newcomer do you expect to be top tier?

[xxMiles]

I'm betting on Greninja. What about you?

 

[wafflini]

I think Mega Man as well.

Little Mac will probably be mid high, but only because of his poor air game.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Idk which one will be top tier, but I CAN state why none of them will be top 5.

1. Villager
The main obvious flaw is in his recovery. For the most part, every top tier has had a decent recovery. Considering nearly every character has at least one multi hit move, popping those balloons will be easy. There could be other flaws that this character has, but they are unseen at the moment.

2. Mega Man
This things lacks close range moves that are safe. Mega Upper is likely not a safe move. Any character that breaks his projectile wall can and will get in on him. Things like Marth and Fox will close in on him and eat him alive. There could be other flaws that this character has, but they are unseen at the moment.

3. Wii Fit Trainer
Large hitboxes? Yes. Disjointed? No. She'll lose the spacing game vs. a lot of characters, especially swordsmen/whip users (cough zss cough). Also she seemingly lacks a decent approach. There could be other flaws that this character has, but they are unseen at the moment.

4. Rosalina and Luma
This chick suffers the Mewtwo problem. Tall, floaty, lightweight. She'll be dying at 65-75% by most characters off the top. She'll be hit easily because of her size, she'll be comboed and juggled easily, and she can be KOed easy. Another thing. Once Luma is dead, from what I learned from the Rosalina trailer, her wand twirl is her summon Luma, and it takes FOREVER. Yes she does it again, but Luma is out attacking. This could be compared to Olimar in Brawl, who could always do Pikmin Pluck, but if he already had 6 pikmin, then no pikmin would be plucked. Just a blank animation. There could be other flaws that this character has, but they are unseen at the moment.

5. Little Mac
This man is juggle BAIT. And he will not recover at all. Possibility of being gimped under 30% is very real. There could be other flaws that this character has, but they are unseen at the moment.

6. Greninja
This dude is just all visual aesthetics. Half of his moves are all for show, and they have fairly heavy ending lag. Up Smash especially. Other laggy moves include forward air, forward smash, Shadow Sneak, Substitute, etc. Also, a fully charged Water Shuriken doesn't seem to be a fast moving projectile. Kinda easy to dodge. There could be other flaws that this character has, but they are unseen at the moment.

 

[Phaazoid]

I'm betting on Greninja. What about you?

First let me say, I hate you and all that you stand for. (I'm assuming you're a fan of the new star of ultimate spiderman)

Second, Imma say Either Greninja or Rosalina look the best of the newcomers right now, but Little Mac looks strong as well. Hard to tel from what we know.

 

[xxMiles]

First let me say, I hate you and all that you stand for. (I'm assuming you're a fan of the new star of ultimate spiderman)

Second, Imma say Either Greninja or Rosalina look the best of the newcomers right now, but Little Mac looks strong as well. Hard to tel from what we know.

I am a fan of Ultimate Spider-Man. What, you don't like Miles Morales, right?

And yeah, I think I can agree with those three you listed.

Little Mac will probably rise in the tiers if pros find a way to get past his weak air game and recovery problems.

 

[josh bones]

was top tier in melee. Recovery isn't a big deal

 

[victinivcreate1]

I'm pretty sure Greninja is probably the weakest of the newcomers. He brings nothing new to the table. I.e, his style has already been done. We know how to fight it. While things like Mega Man, Mac, or Rosalina, we have never had an extreme camper, an extreme rush down, or an Remote Control character.

@ josh bones
Falco's offensive capacity was unreal. I'd say it is better than Fox's offense. Villager has yet to demonstrate something like this.

 

[Gameboi834]

Idk which one will be top tier, but I CAN state why none of them will be top 5.

1. Villager
The main obvious flaw is in his recovery. For the most part, every top tier has had a decent recovery. Considering nearly every character has at least one multi hit move, popping those balloons will be easy. There could be other flaws that this character has, but they are unseen at the moment.

2. Mega Man
This things lacks close range moves that are safe. Mega Upper is likely not a safe move. Any character that breaks his projectile wall can and will get in on him. Things like Marth and Fox will close in on him and eat him alive. There could be other flaws that this character has, but they are unseen at the moment.

3. Wii Fit Trainer
Large hitboxes? Yes. Disjointed? No. She'll lose the spacing game vs. a lot of characters, especially swordsmen/whip users (cough zss cough). Also she seemingly lacks a decent approach. There could be other flaws that this character has, but they are unseen at the moment.

4. Rosalina and Luma
This chick suffers the Mewtwo problem. Tall, floaty, lightweight. She'll be dying at 65-75% by most characters off the top. She'll be hit easily because of her size, she'll be comboed and juggled easily, and she can be KOed easy. Another thing. Once Luma is dead, from what I learned from the Rosalina trailer, her wand twirl is her summon Luma, and it takes FOREVER. Yes she does it again, but Luma is out attacking. This could be compared to Olimar in Brawl, who could always do Pikmin Pluck, but if he already had 6 pikmin, then no pikmin would be plucked. Just a blank animation. There could be other flaws that this character has, but they are unseen at the moment.

5. Little Mac
This man is juggle BAIT. And he will not recover at all. Possibility of being gimped under 30% is very real. There could be other flaws that this character has, but they are unseen at the moment.

6. Greninja
This dude is just all visual aesthetics. Half of his moves are all for show, and they have fairly heavy ending lag. Up Smash especially. Other laggy moves include forward air, forward smash, Shadow Sneak, Substitute, etc. Also, a fully charged Water Shuriken doesn't seem to be a fast moving projectile. Kinda easy to dodge. There could be other flaws that this character has, but they are unseen at the moment.

Basically all of this, although I feel like you (and many others; myself included) underestimate Villager. If there's any underdog I have a feeling it's gonna be Villager.

 

[BioZelink]

1-Greninja-he seems to have fairly good air and ground game, Shadow sneak is really fast and you can act right out of it. Sakurai even said he could freely teleport while charging attacks, so every attack could possibly be done right out of teleport. His projectile seems pretty good and i'm sure hit lag won't be that much, you probably can act before the animation is over completely, kind of like megaman's up/down smashes. His recovery seems really good with the teleport, and xtreme speed. Don't know about down b, it could be a simple counter, or maybe he just teleports leaving a substitute. It could be possible that the thing could be thrown and used as an item. I can't see any real weakness. He could just teleport and spam projectiles to build damage, so he could be very annoying. Hit lag seems a little large though, not too much.

2-Wii Fit Trainer-her normal attacks seem to have large hit boxes, and from the animation it seems like she almost always hits from both sides, she would require good spacing. The attacks also come out really fast. Her sun salutation looks like a really good projectile, it seems powerful and it comes out and moves fast. It's also pretty big. She also has the soccer ball, which could be a nice projectile and mind game tool(potentially harmful though), and the deep breeding if it gives a lot of power could be really useful. He/she could potentially be number one, but i like Greninja more ;p
Can't think of any real weaknesses, i can't say a thing about hitboxes, because we don't have substantial information and assumptions would be groundless. Recovery seems to go pretty far.

3-Little mac-I think he could even be higher than 3, maybe even the best. he doesn't have a good air game, but the thing is, he has super armor on all of his special moves, and it is pretty long. He would easily avoid juggling by simply doing a special, sure he would take a hit, but he would touch the ground. His biggest weakness will definitely be when he is on the lower side outside of the stage, he doesn't have a good option. As i said all of his special and it seems smash attacks have super armor, so attacking through attacks would be an awesome strategy, as he will definitely do more damage. he also has 3 different forward smashes, and that would give him a lot of options. His jolt hay-maker seems to be an awesome move for approaching and it also dodges attacks. his counter is really fast, so it would be useful for avoiding damage and...well countering. his recovery is pretty bad but really good for attacks. And up angled side smash to up b seems to be great, and it is a nice option for juggling(super armor and all). and his straight lounge seems powerful, plus it charges the one hit KO. It comes out extremely fast for what it is, and you can save it. So it's basically a free stock if used correctly. Also it's charged by getting hit and hitting, it's pretty good. Also Snake was supposed to have a bad air game, keep that in mind.


4-Rosalina-she seems to have an extremely good air game with pretty big hit boxes(it looks like it). Having luma could potentially mean that she would have an infinite grab and she would be good for mind games. Ground game looks pretty bad, but luma's looks pretty nice. She has gravitational pull, but it doesn't look very useful, if anything it would be great for item characters. her projectile star bits blowout looks pretty useless, it's short range and shot from Luma. Also doesn't seem to have any substantial knock back. Recovery seems good, but could be problematic if you're close to the stage. Luma shot seems useful, but the problem is Luma will move on his own on the stage. She would either be really good or really bad. I guess pretty good, great for mind-games if nothing more.

5-Mega-man- he is pretty low on my list, and the only reason is because he doesn't seem to have neither a close range good option or a good kill move. His projectiles, especially the metal blade are nice, but it moves pretty slow, and can be cough It can be thrown in 8 directions though, also doesn't come out too fast. Sticky is nice, but easily can be placed on MM, leaf shield could be a great option for close range, but it comes out too slow in the current version. recovery seems pretty good, kind of like Sonic's, it could get creative. most of his normal attacks are projectiles, they could be really great if used correctly, but don't look like a good close range option. Smashes look nice, but neither look like they have good knock back. The only one with good knock back is his mega upper, and it seems extremely unsafe, his slide too. Up and down smashes seem to make a lot of damage, but have almost no knockback. I kind of thing he might end up being the number one on the tier list, only because Mew2King said he would main him :D

6-Villager-his smashes are really laggy, his tilts other than his down seem laggy too. Down smash looks good for trapping under the tree, but one could escape in 2 seconds(at least from DK's).air game will definitely be bad, because he has an random attack generator on his up and down air, side air game could be good though. B moves seem good, but his down B will be completely useless. Not only does it take 4 times to attack, but the tree can be knocked out easily. His pocket seems pretty good, against projectile characters. side be looks really good, but a lil laggy and not too damaging. Nice for recovering it seems. His recovery move is pretty awful, after a hit he's basically dead. Laggy moves, random number generator, bad recovery and a tree.

This is my list, but then again what do i know? Until we get the game we can't know for sure. And also i am a firm believer that every single smash character (other than Pichu...) is viable in the right hands.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I don't understand why people think Greninja is good. Like really. The man loves ending lag. No other newcomer has serious ending lag issues like he does. Even though I am biased towards him, I do think Mega Man will be one of the better characters.

The thing has 7 projectiles, including a range spike. This could function similar to edgeguarding with Pikachu's Thunder. You could dair, Up B, then dair again. Two walls in a short amount of time. Note that Mega Man's Up B doesn't put him in helpless.

 

[xxMiles]

I don't understand why people think Greninja is good. Like really. The man loves ending lag. No other newcomer has serious ending lag issues like he does. Even though I am biased towards him, I do think Mega Man will be one of the better characters.

The thing has 7 projectiles, including a range spike. This could function similar to edgeguarding with Pikachu's Thunder. You could dair, Up B, then dair again. Two walls in a short amount of time. Note that Mega Man's Up B doesn't put him in helpless.

What makes Mega Man look so good?

And well, Greninja is fast and has a teleport, can attack out of teleports, etc. He just has the top tier feel to him.

And I think Mega Man is gonna be mid tier at best. It depends, really.

 

[dimensionsword64]

I would say Little Mac or Rosalina. They both seem to be deadly in the hands of a pro.

 

[victinivcreate1]

What makes Mega Man look good?

Why was Olimar good in Brawl? Camp ftw.
Why is Link/Zelda good in PM? Camp ftw.

Mega Man? Camping on steroids. And he still has close range options. Now they obviously aren't the best ones. But his air game is pretty dang good. Marth forward air, MK back air, a huge up air hitbox, a projectile dair, a gimping nair, etc.

Greninja like I said, is aesthetic pleasure. He looks cool, but his moves are really not that amazing. Plus, does he really have any KO moves? The only newcomer shown with legitimate KO moves are Mac, Mega Man (dair bruh), and I think Rosalina. Ninjas are known for speed, not power. Now before you bring up MK, note MK had several powerful moves, but he mainly KOed by gimps/stage spikes. Dair, ASL, nair, etc. Greninja doesn't seemingly have gimping tools besides water shuriken, which can be only thrown straight forward. Mega Man has Metal Blade, which is a damn good gimp tool. It can be thrown at any angle. Another thing he could do is overwhelm the space between him and the opponent with projectiles. None of them are particularly quick, so it'll be easy to do so. Greninja can't really camp with his projectile. He has to get in close to do some real damage. And while he is very mobile and quick, and Shadow Sneak is a great move, has it been clearly stated that he can attack out of it, like Mewtwo's Teleport in PM? I don't think so. And this move will probably have some elaborate ending lag with Greninja doing this cool ninja pose before he strikes down his opponent. AKA AN OPENING FOR THE FOE TO STRIKE.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'd guess WFT will be the best of the newcomers. She's kinda the opposite of Pit, in the sense that she has sword reach with arms while Pit has arm reach with his bow.

Anyway, WFT has better reach then most past high tiers, fairly fast moves, a pretty decent kill move projectile and another projectile we don't know much about yet. (Sun Salutation and the WF soccer ball, respectively.) And most of her alot of her moves hit on both sides, effectively giving her more moves then the rest. It really depends on how effective Deep Breathing is, but she's basically Marth - sword + projectile.

The rest look like they have VERY exploitable problems. Villager's poor recovery and slow moves, Megaman's practically combo-free game and the lack of good CQC, Rosalina's floatyness and presumably low HP Lumas, Mac's horrible recovery and air game and useless gimmick in the super armor, (grabs >>>>> super armor, as Stone and Aether will attest to, and the moves are slow to boot) and Greninja's general lack of substance.

Really, how many past high tier characters have been anything less then well rounded? Melee Fox and Falco had somewhat exploitable recoveries, but nowhere near to how exploitable Villager and Mac's are. The ICs could be separated, but they have effectively touch of death combos. Rosalina will most likely lack such in a more balanced game. Pit's arrows in Brawl were the one projectile to rule them all and he had a pretty decent close-up game too, but Megaman has tons of projectiles for something of the same effect and almost no close-up moves.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't care how bad a character Greninja may end up being with all his ninja posing and crap, I'm still maining him.

Otherwise, I think Wii Fit Trainer will be pretty good, but I honestly don't think any assumptions can be made about viability at this point.

please don't kill me...

 

[Golden Gallade]

I think Rosalina will be very good. or at least Rosalina high-mid. She seams to have extreme combo potential.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I'd guess WFT will be the best of the newcomers. She's kinda the opposite of Pit, in the sense that she has sword reach with arms while Pit has arm reach with his bow.

Anyway, WFT has better reach then most past high tiers, fairly fast moves, a pretty decent kill move projectile and another projectile we don't know much about yet. (Sun Salutation and the WF soccer ball, respectively.) And most of her alot of her moves hit on both sides, effectively giving her more moves then the rest. It really depends on how effective Deep Breathing is, but she's basically Marth - sword + projectile.

The rest look like they have VERY exploitable problems. Villager's poor recovery and slow moves, Megaman's practically combo-free game and the lack of good CQC, Rosalina's floatyness and presumably low HP Lumas, Mac's horrible recovery and air game and useless gimmick in the super armor, (grabs >>>>> super armor, as Stone and Aether will attest to, and the moves are slow to boot) and Greninja's general lack of substance.

Really, how many past high tier characters have been anything less then well rounded? Melee Fox and Falco had somewhat exploitable recoveries, but nowhere near to how exploitable Villager and Mac's are. The ICs could be separated, but they have effectively touch of death combos. Rosalina will most likely lack such in a more balanced game. Pit's arrows in Brawl were the one projectile to rule them all and he had a pretty decent close-up game too, but Megaman has tons of projectiles for something of the same effect and almost no close-up moves.

I agree and disagree with this statement. While I do agree that MM has a free combo game, Rosalina's survivability is bad, Greninja is all flash, and Mac is juggle bait, the things that they can do, they do them with incredible ability. Mega Man can outcamp anything. Greninja will probably be hard to hit, Rosalina has great combo potential and Mac is lightning quick on the ground.

 

[Wanderer from Roseyard]

While it's too hard to tell without knowing the minutia of each character, I think Greninja has high tier written all over him. He has at least two specials that teleport him, as far as I can gather, and one of them goes a variable distance, for surprise factor. I can see that being very appealing to competitive players.

 

[Jigglymaster]

You guys seem to have a good grasp on how these characters play. Do you have your hands on the game already?

I understand this is all speculation, but lets try to not act like we already have played the game to jump to such harsh conclusions.

 

[Lugubrious]

I can't say that I know enough about any of the characters to accurately predict. As everyone and their mother have observed, Little Mac is an offensive powerhouse, but his recovery will be his downfall. Victini has said repeatedly that Greninja is neutered by its ending lag on its moves (at least the one's we've seen, mind you) but if you can charge Shadow Sneak while other moves are being executed then I imagine this problem might be mitigated somewhat. It'll depend on whether other moves can be canceled into Shadow Sneak or not.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I think the problem is that despite the fact that we know so much on the game, we know so little about the characters themselves. For all we know, Mega Man could have a very serious combo game stemming from his so far unseen throws, Mac could have incredible hitstun on his aerials allowing for excellent air to ground transitioning, Greninja could have no lag on any of his moves allowing a street fighter-esque character to go ham with, etc.

 

[Vintage Creep]

Little Mac is going to surprise a lot of people when it turns out he sucks.
I'm betting everything on Villager and Wii Fit Trainer.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I think WFT will be good, but she does lack an approach. And no, Sun Salutation is not a good camping projectile. Villager? Naw. I just don't think he has it. Many of his moves are slow in start up. The shovel attack is quick though. That'll be something.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

I'm kind of expecting Rosalina to have an infinite. In fact as soon as possible I'm going to see if one infinite works. (You assign specials to the C stick) Rosalina grabs with Luma in front of her. Don't throw wait for them to be released. Just before have Luma side b at your grabbed opponent. The opponent is then in hit stun from the attack so Rosalina can run up and grab again. There's no way of knowing if this will work yet but if Rosalina has an infinite she'll be high tier.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I'm kind of expecting Rosalina to have an infinite. In fact as soon as possible I'm going to see if one infinite works. (You assign specials to the C stick) Rosalina grabs with Luma in front of her. Don't throw wait for them to be released. Just before have Luma side b at your grabbed opponent. The opponent is then in hit stun from the attack so Rosalina can run up and grab again. There's no way of knowing if this will work yet but if Rosalina has an infinite she'll be high tier.

Won't work. Cuz when you control Luma, Rosalina starts commanding Luma. I don't think you can control both if you decide to control Luma. Also, you don't have to ground release. Air releases exist too.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I wouldn't look to recovery as a good predictor. Melee Falco and Brawl Olimar both have generally awful recoveries and are very good anyway; all the good things they can do on-stage end up mattering a lot more.

Balance is going to change a lot, and this is all really unpreditable. Here's what I've gleaned from trailers though...

Mega Man looks super strong. The short version of how he works is that he seems to be able to move easily while covering wherever he wants with projectiles. An extremely defensive Mega Man seems like he could be very, very strong (get a lead, fill the screen with garbage, wait for 8 minutes), and if Sakurai balances around time mode where failing to actually end the opponent's stock for a super defensive character might matter, Mega Man benefits massively. I'm also still waiting to see what exactly beats Leaf Shield; so far, I'm seeing hitboxes circle the user that seem to win every clash and remembering how impossible beating Mach Torando was for most of the cast in Brawl.

Little Mac looks really strong too. Charging that uppercut will not be that hard, and in general, his speed and power seem really overwhelming. Just think about the basic dynamics here. Little Mac runs away a bit and starts charging the uppercut. As soon as you try to do an approach, he counters with his own approach, and he's probably better at offense than you. He can force his opponents to stop playing defensively due to the threat of having a full uppercut, and he's well built to win in offense vs offense. Even if you try to just counter with projectiles, he has a move clearly designed to deal with that. Fundamentally, it seems hard for his moveset to be anything but good.

Villager is the character I feel third best about. He has a lot of powerful looking gimmicks, and if even one of them is good in the long run, he ends up being a strong character. I haven't really seen anything on him that seems well suited to dealing with very aggressive rushdown which is somewhat of a limiter, and in general his wacky moveset is hard to predict, but I'm optimistic about him.

Rosalina is a funny one. Most people see the obvious ICs power stuff, but I fear that she might be a bit too easy to separate from her Luma and a bit too helpless after that happens. We definitely need to see more of her and get some playtime, but she definitely hangs on the point of whether she can realistically maintain control of the match. If she can, she could be great, but it seems likely the faster characters will be able to shut her game down which would make her pretty bad.

Greninja is someone I have fairly little optimism for. We know so little about him so clearly new revelations could change things, but I see a mobile character with a lot of really elaborate moves so far. I worry that he'll end up being really punishable on block or whiff, and getting routinely punished is kinda the biggest predictor of being a bad character.

Wii Fit Trainer seems to have a really dull moveset with a lot of really awkward normals. That's just not good, and I'm just not seeing the thing that makes me say "oh, that's this character's unique strength that makes it all worth it".

 

[victinivcreate1]

I wouldn't look to recovery as a good predictor. Melee Falco and Brawl Olimar both have generally awful recoveries and are very good anyway; all the good things they can do on-stage end up mattering a lot more.

Balance is going to change a lot, and this is all really unpreditable. Here's what I've gleaned from trailers though...

Mega Man looks super strong. The short version of how he works is that he seems to be able to move easily while covering wherever he wants with projectiles. An extremely defensive Mega Man seems like he could be very, very strong (get a lead, fill the screen with garbage, wait for 8 minutes), and if Sakurai balances around time mode where failing to actually end the opponent's stock for a super defensive character might matter, Mega Man benefits massively. I'm also still waiting to see what exactly beats Leaf Shield; so far, I'm seeing hitboxes circle the user that seem to win every clash and remembering how impossible beating Mach Torando was for most of the cast in Brawl.

Little Mac looks really strong too. Charging that uppercut will not be that hard, and in general, his speed and power seem really overwhelming. Just think about the basic dynamics here. Little Mac runs away a bit and starts charging the uppercut. As soon as you try to do an approach, he counters with his own approach, and he's probably better at offense than you. He can force his opponents to stop playing defensively due to the threat of having a full uppercut, and he's well built to win in offense vs offense. Even if you try to just counter with projectiles, he has a move clearly designed to deal with that. Fundamentally, it seems hard for his moveset to be anything but good.

Villager is the character I feel third best about. He has a lot of powerful looking gimmicks, and if even one of them is good in the long run, he ends up being a strong character. I haven't really seen anything on him that seems well suited to dealing with very aggressive rushdown which is somewhat of a limiter, and in general his wacky moveset is hard to predict, but I'm optimistic about him.

Rosalina is a funny one. Most people see the obvious ICs power stuff, but I fear that she might be a bit too easy to separate from her Luma and a bit too helpless after that happens. We definitely need to see more of her and get some playtime, but she definitely hangs on the point of whether she can realistically maintain control of the match. If she can, she could be great, but it seems likely the faster characters will be able to shut her game down which would make her pretty bad.

Greninja is someone I have fairly little optimism for. We know so little about him so clearly new revelations could change things, but I see a mobile character with a lot of really elaborate moves so far. I worry that he'll end up being really punishable on block or whiff, and getting routinely punished is kinda the biggest predictor of being a bad character.

Wii Fit Trainer seems to have a really dull moveset with a lot of really awkward normals. That's just not good, and I'm just not seeing the thing that makes me say "oh, that's this character's unique strength that makes it all worth it".

This game is closer to Melee speed, so I don't think Mega Man is top of the list TBH. Faster game=Less chances to camp. Honestly I think Mr. Mac is the best of them. The man can bumrush every single newcomer. Only Greninja rivals Mac in mobility.

 

[LancerStaff]

I wouldn't look to recovery as a good predictor. Melee Falco and Brawl Olimar both have generally awful recoveries and are very good anyway; all the good things they can do on-stage end up mattering a lot more.

Balance is going to change a lot, and this is all really unpreditable. Here's what I've gleaned from trailers though...

Mega Man looks super strong. The short version of how he works is that he seems to be able to move easily while covering wherever he wants with projectiles. An extremely defensive Mega Man seems like he could be very, very strong (get a lead, fill the screen with garbage, wait for 8 minutes), and if Sakurai balances around time mode where failing to actually end the opponent's stock for a super defensive character might matter, Mega Man benefits massively. I'm also still waiting to see what exactly beats Leaf Shield; so far, I'm seeing hitboxes circle the user that seem to win every clash and remembering how impossible beating Mach Torando was for most of the cast in Brawl.

Little Mac looks really strong too. Charging that uppercut will not be that hard, and in general, his speed and power seem really overwhelming. Just think about the basic dynamics here. Little Mac runs away a bit and starts charging the uppercut. As soon as you try to do an approach, he counters with his own approach, and he's probably better at offense than you. He can force his opponents to stop playing defensively due to the threat of having a full uppercut, and he's well built to win in offense vs offense. Even if you try to just counter with projectiles, he has a move clearly designed to deal with that. Fundamentally, it seems hard for his moveset to be anything but good.

Villager is the character I feel third best about. He has a lot of powerful looking gimmicks, and if even one of them is good in the long run, he ends up being a strong character. I haven't really seen anything on him that seems well suited to dealing with very aggressive rushdown which is somewhat of a limiter, and in general his wacky moveset is hard to predict, but I'm optimistic about him.

Rosalina is a funny one. Most people see the obvious ICs power stuff, but I fear that she might be a bit too easy to separate from her Luma and a bit too helpless after that happens. We definitely need to see more of her and get some playtime, but she definitely hangs on the point of whether she can realistically maintain control of the match. If she can, she could be great, but it seems likely the faster characters will be able to shut her game down which would make her pretty bad.

Greninja is someone I have fairly little optimism for. We know so little about him so clearly new revelations could change things, but I see a mobile character with a lot of really elaborate moves so far. I worry that he'll end up being really punishable on block or whiff, and getting routinely punished is kinda the biggest predictor of being a bad character.

Wii Fit Trainer seems to have a really dull moveset with a lot of really awkward normals. That's just not good, and I'm just not seeing the thing that makes me say "oh, that's this character's unique strength that makes it all worth it".

I doubt we'll get characters remotely as unbalanced as before, and characters have to be balanced for both sides of the skill spectrum. If simply spamming projectiles is all it takes to win at higher levels with Megaman, he would be OP at lower levels. Leaf Shield... It's slow, and Megaman can't move while using it. And it's safe to assume it'll automatically get fired off after a moment, as is the standard for these kinds of things.

Charging the uppercut won't be hard? Somebody did the math and found out it took about three minutes to charge. I wonder what happens when Mac is KOed... I have yet to see anything that could hit somebody on a ledge while he's grounded, and he has basically no air game. Ledge camping against Mac could be viable. One good hit and he's in the air, begging to be juggled or combo'd off.

Meh. Villager could end up with a powerful gimmick, but he could also end up without a powerful gimmick at all.

I agree for Rosalina and Greninja...

But WFT doesn't have any glaring weaknesses. She has two projectiles, one presumably for camping, the other for KOing. She has better reach against most of the cast. She appears to be an all-around good character, as most high tiers are.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

You can move away as easily as you can move toward. Just remember Brawl Wario who was so fast and used it all to run away, and heck, just think about how most Peach players approach Melee which is not exactly an offensive showcase (as someone who has played the Jigglypuff vs Peach match-up a lot in Melee, I can say that the word "offense" has so little to do with it). In general there's no reason to assume game speed will lead to offense, and while certainly offensive characters can use speed to move in and create hard pressure, zoners can use it to move out and exert control of space quickly. Melee's offensive metagame was more about the particulars of its characters than about the engine, and even then, there's more campy and defensive play in Melee than most people seem to like to admit.

I think a good example here is actually not a smash game. Street Fighter 2 is a way faster fighter than any smash game. Dhalsim is that game's top zoning character; his limbs stretch half the screen, but he's really weak and slow compared to everyone else. Dhalsim is top tier in SF2 mostly because it turns out he's "fast enough" for his gameplay to work and the pure control over the match his limbs give him matters more than most of what the other characters can do. Heck, O.Sagat was top tier too, and he pretty much just stood there shooting projectiles really fast! I can so easily see Mega Man, who zones on seemingly a far deeper level than any previous smash character and further has that whole obnoxious run-away angle seemingly on lock, fitting into a similar niche and ending up at the top.

EDIT: When was it confirmed Leaf Shield prevents Mega Man from moving? You can probably still drift around after using it in the air anyway.

More importantly, I feel like people are looking at it backward with strengths and weaknesses. It's more important to have strengths than to not have weaknesses. Melee perhaps confused some people because its top characters were build like specialists except didn't have any of the downsides those archetypes would normally have, but look at Brawl's balance other than MK. Olimar has a horrible air game. Snake is honestly pretty slow. Diddy has terrible kill power. ICs revolve entirely around one gimmick and fall apart if it gets disrupted. Wario has pretty much zero range on all of his good moves, and his offense has an awful flow. All of those characters are still awesome; they're good showcases of how important having those strengths is since when you have major strengths you push those, define the game on the terms of those strengths, and make your weaknesses not matter so much no matter how large they are. I see a clear path for Mega Man to do that, and while clearly the balance is still up in the air and will depend on so many unknown particulars, I feel reasonable in being more optimistic about him than about any of the others... though Little Mac does seem strong too.

 

[victinivcreate1]

@ Amazing Ampharos -I've actually never thought of it like that tbh. Now I actually see Mega Man being top 5 material. And not to mention Mega Man does have the air of elusiveness. His Up B is fantastic. Its sends him very high, and he can act out of it too. Nice escape options. Up B, throwing Metal Blade at an angle to ward off attackers. His rolls are quick too.

@ LancerStaff
I doubt spamming projectiles will win MM matches. I think its the way you create your walls that'll win high level matches. MM reminds me of Snake. Snake in low level play is spamming grenade, and spams tilts and the random mine. Snake in high level play is this (below

Scenario


c4 here
_________

landmine here (in shield holding grenade)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(cursing Snake's name because Snake just ledgetrapped him).


Snake here is ledge trapping a Marth. Snake plants his C4 on the top platform, he plants a land mine on the main platform, and he stands back a bit, in his shield holding a grenade. This Marth cannot do much. He is essentially trapped. This would not be seen in low level play. Same goes for Mega Man. Most new players would spam his buster, but the smarter Mega Mans would create walls where there were few, if any openings at all. And lets not forget, there are likely advanced techs in the game that we don't know yet, and some old techs may return, like recoil specials or glide toss.

 

[KoRLumen]

Won't work. Cuz when you control Luma, Rosalina starts commanding Luma. I don't think you can control both if you decide to control Luma. Also, you don't have to ground release. Air releases exist too.

It's not total control. The extent is basically if Rosalina attacks, Luma attacks. But because it's synced like that, an infinite will still be pretty difficult to do.

 

[Ryan.]

So far I'm thinking Rosalina or Mega Man.

 

[LancerStaff]

You can move away as easily as you can move toward. Just remember Brawl Wario who was so fast and used it all to run away, and heck, just think about how most Peach players approach Melee which is not exactly an offensive showcase (as someone who has played the Jigglypuff vs Peach match-up a lot in Melee, I can say that the word "offense" has so little to do with it). In general there's no reason to assume game speed will lead to offense, and while certainly offensive characters can use speed to move in and create hard pressure, zoners can use it to move out and exert control of space quickly. Melee's offensive metagame was more about the particulars of its characters than about the engine, and even then, there's more campy and defensive play in Melee than most people seem to like to admit.

I think a good example here is actually not a smash game. Street Fighter 2 is a way faster fighter than any smash game. Dhalsim is that game's top zoning character; his limbs stretch half the screen, but he's really weak and slow compared to everyone else. Dhalsim is top tier in SF2 mostly because it turns out he's "fast enough" for his gameplay to work and the pure control over the match his limbs give him matters more than most of what the other characters can do. Heck, O.Sagat was top tier too, and he pretty much just stood there shooting projectiles really fast! I can so easily see Mega Man, who zones on seemingly a far deeper level than any previous smash character and further has that whole obnoxious run-away angle seemingly on lock, fitting into a similar niche and ending up at the top.

EDIT: When was it confirmed Leaf Shield prevents Mega Man from moving? You can probably still drift around after using it in the air anyway.

More importantly, I feel like people are looking at it backward with strengths and weaknesses. It's more important to have strengths than to not have weaknesses. Melee perhaps confused some people because its top characters were build like specialists except didn't have any of the downsides those archetypes would normally have, but look at Brawl's balance other than MK. Olimar has a horrible air game. Snake is honestly pretty slow. Diddy has terrible kill power. ICs revolve entirely around one gimmick and fall apart if it gets disrupted. Wario has pretty much zero range on all of his good moves, and his offense has an awful flow. All of those characters are still awesome; they're good showcases of how important having those strengths is since when you have major strengths you push those, define the game on the terms of those strengths, and make your weaknesses not matter so much no matter how large they are. I see a clear path for Mega Man to do that, and while clearly the balance is still up in the air and will depend on so many unknown particulars, I feel reasonable in being more optimistic about him than about any of the others... though Little Mac does seem strong too.

Back in MM2, simply pressing a direction fires the shield, even in the air. If LS turns out to be practically unbreakable, it'll probably be balanced out by not being able to move with it at all.

It's just that for the most part, characters' weaknesses in past games didn't make much of a difference. Snake had lighting fast tilts and a potent DACUS. Diddy has to just deal more damage to make up for the weaker kill power. Olimar was just that broken, and his recovery wasn't even supposed to be that horrible either. We have actual balancing being done now.

 

[victinivcreate1]

So glad Olimar got huge nerfs

 

[Dr.Megaman]

Little Mac

 

[DakotaBonez]

It's only a matter of time until someone learns how to exploit Luma to initiate an infinite chain grab, then the metagame goes downhill from there...

 

[victinivcreate1]

It's only a matter of time until someone learns how to exploit Luma to initiate an infinite chain grab, then the metagame goes downhill from there...

It hasn't been confirmed but I doubt Luma can grab. Rosalina has been shown grabbing, but not the Luma.

EDIT: 333rd post. Yay for me.

 

[KoRLumen]

It hasn't been confirmed but I doubt Luma can grab. Rosalina has been shown grabbing, but not the Luma.

EDIT: 333rd post. Yay for me.

Lol grats.

As for chaingrabs, I'm thinking maybe you could grab, pummel, release, hitstun with luma (if it has such a move), regrab? This would only work if you can control Luma's attacks even when Rosalina herself is in a state where she can't attack.

 

[Gameboi834]

Back in MM2, simply pressing a direction fires the shield, even in the air. If LS turns out to be practically unbreakable, it'll probably be balanced out by not being able to move with it at all.

It's not unbreakable; each leaf takes a hit, like three red shells hovering around your kart, but with four leafs instead of three.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Little Mac strikes me as kind of the "Ike" of Smash 4.

He will be the guy all the new players love rolling in FFA matches with the one singular goal to spam smash attacks until they catch 1-2 people up in their OHKO move. Like seriously, whether they win or lose and no matter by how much, if they can just land one KO spamming the attack that will satisfy them enough to say that playing him is badass.

You all know an "Ike", don't lie.