• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Which newcomer do you expect to be top tier?

Status
Not open for further replies.

victinivcreate1

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
1,628
Location
New York City
NNID
Wiiu4ssb4
3DS FC
3007-8585-6950
People like comparing the potential brokenness of these characters to brawl characters like Olimar and Snake, saying things like they had bad recoveries and air games. Just to note, Olimar's air game was very good. It just wasn't as good as say, Marth, Meta Knight, Lucario or Zero Suit Samus. Same with Snake. His aerials were not bad. They just were wayyyyy inferior to his unrealistically good ground game. Snake stays grounded not because his air game is bad, its because his ground game is gdlk. Diddy and Olimar have the same things. MK is the only top tier that has a better air game than ground game, and thats a no brainer.
 

spader13

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
Messages
431
It'll depend on exactly how tall and floaty Rosalina is with the mechanics, but she seems to have the potential for top tier, and is certainly one of the more likely characters to have an infinite combo/grab.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
Olimar's air game really was pretty bad; his aerial mobility was bad, none of his aerials were really all that fast and were only all that strong with purples, and jumping in general was setting yourself up for a gimp if you got hit which of course was all bad. Snake likewise had overall a pretty lousy set of aerials. Sure they hit really hard, but you could expect to pay very, very dearly if you didn't hit since they were the most committed aerials in the game by far. They didn't even come out all that fast so you had moves that came out at mid-slow speeds that spelled a huge punish against you if you missed with them or were blocked; if Snake had to rely on this as his primary gameplan (let's say he traded his ground game for Jigglypuff's), he'd be bottom tier for sure. It's not to say that these characters couldn't make use of their aerials or that those aerials were worthless; that certainly isn't true. However, it's hard to say that either had anything but a weakness in the air when just about all of the other characters were better up there. Yeah, they could deal with their weaknesses and work around them; they wouldn't have been good if they couldn't. However, the weaknesses did exist, and there's no reason smash 4 top tiers won't be the same way especially with more thoughtful design this time that's going to avoid characters like MK who lack any sort of significant weaknesses unless they're going for a Mario sort of "the lack major weaknesses is offset by a similar lack of major strengths" which is almost never the recipe for a top tier.

Also, a mechanical quirk I feel I need to emphasize to those who mostly play Melee. In Melee, fall speed dictates your resistance to being killed outright off the top, but that is NOT true in Brawl at all. In Brawl, weight is the only really significant factor to all launches. Given that the weight versus fall speed mechanics in Melee were really counter-intuitive and further only served to hurt the game's balance (they were more than a little unfair to Bowser...), I don't see Melee's mechanics returning here . That means that Rosalina being floaty is not going to make her particularly more susceptible to dying off the top than any other character in her weight class, and I don't see her as being among the lightest characters but more probably in Marth or Zelda's weight range. She has plenty to worry about, but I don't think being light and floaty is going to be all that big of a problem for her.
 

RascalTheCharizard

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
987
Until I get to play the game for myself, I'm betting on at least one of these guys:

Megaman - If Smash 4 becomes a decently defencive game, I can only imagine that Megaman would stand out above many characters. He has heaps of ranged attacks, including 3 specials, 2 or 3 aerials and so on. Also his basic shots flinch opponents and are fired foward, a la Falco. Metal Blades even count as an item so if Glide Tossing makes a return, Mega will have even more ways to send stuff at his opponents. His recovery appears to be decent too.

Rosalina - Unlike Ice Climbers, Rosalina can get her "partner" back without losing a stock. She has an excellent recovery move in Launch Star based on footage and Sakurai's brief description in the Direct. It appears that she'll have good combo potential as well. On top of all of this, I inferred that controlling Luma won't be as technically-demanding as the Ice Climbers (both Melee and Brawl), as Ros's gameplay style seems to be made with the intent of simply using Luma Shot and attacks without need for any of that crazy Desynching business. Lastly, Gravitational Pull looks handy.

Little Mac - In both Melee and Brawl, we have learnt that FAST offensive characters always have high/top-tier potential. Think Fox (M), Sheik (M), Meta Knight (B), Marth (M&B) and Pikachu (M&B). Fox in particular is noteworthy for his average (albeit easily edgeguarded) recovery. So clearly you don't have to have Meta Knight's recovery to be #1 as long as you are a powerhouse. However, Smash 4 isn't Melee or Brawl lol, so maybe my comparisons are flatout stupid. Anyway, Straight Lunge actually increases the KO Meter (wow), so it's not like it can really be drained. More to the point, it has been confirmed that it charges with both damage taken AND damage given, so unless it has a long charge time it completely eclipses Lucario's Aura mechanics IMO. Also has anyone seen just how far Mac flies across the stage to deliver the KO Uppercut? *shudder* Final point, Mac's down-angled FSmash is a confirmed combo move, delivering damage and a lot of stun, with little knockback, easily transitioning into other Smashes. Likewise I think Mac's poor knockback on his aerial moves might actually be useful, depending on how comboing works in Sm4sh. It could be possible that Mac could do a landing aerial and then combo into something else. I believe that Wolf could legit combo a landing Nair into Dtilt in Brawl, for example.
 

victinivcreate1

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
1,628
Location
New York City
NNID
Wiiu4ssb4
3DS FC
3007-8585-6950
Olimar's air game really was pretty bad; his aerial mobility was bad, none of his aerials were really all that fast and were only all that strong with purples, and jumping in general was setting yourself up for a gimp if you got hit which of course was all bad. Snake likewise had overall a pretty lousy set of aerials. Sure they hit really hard, but you could expect to pay very, very dearly if you didn't hit since they were the most committed aerials in the game by far. They didn't even come out all that fast so you had moves that came out at mid-slow speeds that spelled a huge punish against you if you missed with them or were blocked; if Snake had to rely on this as his primary gameplan (let's say he traded his ground game for Jigglypuff's), he'd be bottom tier for sure. It's not to say that these characters couldn't make use of their aerials or that those aerials were worthless; that certainly isn't true. However, it's hard to say that either had anything but a weakness in the air when just about all of the other characters were better up there. Yeah, they could deal with their weaknesses and work around them; they wouldn't have been good if they couldn't. However, the weaknesses did exist, and there's no reason smash 4 top tiers won't be the same way especially with more thoughtful design this time that's going to avoid characters like MK who lack any sort of significant weaknesses unless they're going for a Mario sort of "the lack major weaknesses is offset by a similar lack of major strengths" which is almost never the recipe for a top tier.

Also, a mechanical quirk I feel I need to emphasize to those who mostly play Melee. In Melee, fall speed dictates your resistance to being killed outright off the top, but that is NOT true in Brawl at all. In Brawl, weight is the only really significant factor to all launches. Given that the weight versus fall speed mechanics in Melee were really counter-intuitive and further only served to hurt the game's balance (they were more than a little unfair to Bowser...), I don't see Melee's mechanics returning here . That means that Rosalina being floaty is not going to make her particularly more susceptible to dying off the top than any other character in her weight class, and I don't see her as being among the lightest characters but more probably in Marth or Zelda's weight range. She has plenty to worry about, but I don't think being light and floaty is going to be all that big of a problem for her.
Olimars aerial frame data
Nair-8
Uair-8
Fair-7
Bair-11
Dair-9

Snake's aerial frame data
Nair-10
Uair-10
Fair-23
Bair-6
Dair-4

Slow aerials? Bar Snake's fair, nope.

Sakurai has confirmed that she will be a light weight. Marth has always been a borderline middleweight, and Zelda a middleweight in Melee and barely a lightweight in Brawl. Rosalina has no meat on her. Which is why ZSS da bess she'll be dying wayyyyy quick. I'm willing to bet she'll die off the top from Fox's up smash uncharged at 70.

Another thing Amazing Ampharos. Fall speeds DO impact vertical endurance in Brawl. Samus, being a heavyweight floater was really hard to KO off the sides, but dumb easy to Star KO. Link and Snake have two of the best vertical endurances in the game, with 185% and 188% respectively. The higher your falling speed, the better your vertical endurance. Now before you say Fox, Fox is a lightweight. He'll die off the top easily to begin with.
 
Last edited:

Starbound

Worlds Apart, But Still Together.
Joined
Jan 31, 2012
Messages
4,083
Location
Canada
Rosalina.

She'll likely start off like Olimar with a weak metagame as players still try to figure her out, but when people see how to use her she'll jump up to top tier.
 

Phaazoid

Basket
Joined
Aug 29, 2006
Messages
7,719
Location
Mr. Sakurai's wild ride
NNID
Mr.Grike
3DS FC
4854-6444-0859
I am a fan of Ultimate Spider-Man. What, you don't like Miles Morales, right?

And yeah, I think I can agree with those three you listed.

Little Mac will probably rise in the tiers if pros find a way to get past his weak air game and recovery problems.
It's not that I dislike Miles. It's that they tried to replace peter parker as spiderman.
 

BioZelink

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Messages
186
NNID
Biozelink
3DS FC
4811-7130-3977
What makes Mega Man look good?

Why was Olimar good in Brawl? Camp ftw.
Why is Link/Zelda good in PM? Camp ftw.

Mega Man? Camping on steroids. And he still has close range options. Now they obviously aren't the best ones. But his air game is pretty dang good. Marth forward air, MK back air, a huge up air hitbox, a projectile dair, a gimping nair, etc.

Greninja like I said, is aesthetic pleasure. He looks cool, but his moves are really not that amazing. Plus, does he really have any KO moves? The only newcomer shown with legitimate KO moves are Mac, Mega Man (dair bruh), and I think Rosalina. Ninjas are known for speed, not power. Now before you bring up MK, note MK had several powerful moves, but he mainly KOed by gimps/stage spikes. Dair, ASL, nair, etc. Greninja doesn't seemingly have gimping tools besides water shuriken, which can be only thrown straight forward. Mega Man has Metal Blade, which is a damn good gimp tool. It can be thrown at any angle. Another thing he could do is overwhelm the space between him and the opponent with projectiles. None of them are particularly quick, so it'll be easy to do so. Greninja can't really camp with his projectile. He has to get in close to do some real damage. And while he is very mobile and quick, and Shadow Sneak is a great move, has it been clearly stated that he can attack out of it, like Mewtwo's Teleport in PM? I don't think so. And this move will probably have some elaborate ending lag with Greninja doing this cool ninja pose before he strikes down his opponent. AKA AN OPENING FOR THE FOE TO STRIKE.
Sakurai did say he can attack right out of it in a picture of the day. He also said he can charge a move and then teleport while he is charging it(smash attacks). He also can teleport at different distances depending on how long u hold the button. Also the ending lag animation on his moves is not as long as it seems probably. You can see that megaman vents out air and transforms his arms right after he down smashes, and it takes a lot of time for him to return to idle, but you can clearly see he can move out of the animation, so that's probably just a new ascetic change. Sakurai won't leave greninja's up b have 3 seconds of end lag. And Megaman has a lot of projectiles, but they all move slowly and straight on a line. Most of em look easy to dodge, and his meteor smash won't be that great of a kill move for opponents that expect it. Megaman as of what we've seen now has no good kill options, kind of like Sonic but even worst, because his smash attacks have verry little knockback as of right now, Only good kill move seems to be up tilt, but it's laggy afterwards and quite obvious.
 

Shradow

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 27, 2014
Messages
7
I feel like Rosalina & Luna will be absolutely insane in the right hands.
 

victinivcreate1

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
1,628
Location
New York City
NNID
Wiiu4ssb4
3DS FC
3007-8585-6950
@ BioZelink BioZelink

Falco's lasers travel straight. People get hit by those anyway. Mario's Fireballs are slow and travel straight on the ground. You still get hit anyway. Besides, the pressure that a wall of projectiles has is unreal. You can't approach. Plus, slower projectiles allow more effective walls. Anyone wo has played Brawl Minus Falco knows what I'm saying. You can't approach him once he starts shooting. The lasers move slow.
 

BioZelink

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Messages
186
NNID
Biozelink
3DS FC
4811-7130-3977
@ BioZelink BioZelink

Falco's lasers travel straight. People get hit by those anyway. Mario's Fireballs are slow and travel straight on the ground. You still get hit anyway. Besides, the pressure that a wall of projectiles has is unreal. You can't approach. Plus, slower projectiles allow more effective walls. Anyone wo has played Brawl Minus Falco knows what I'm saying. You can't approach him once he starts shooting. The lasers move slow.
Not nearly as slow as Megaman's. Also i'm not talking about just movement speed, but also the fact that MM's B moves have slow start up. His a projectiles are fast without lag, but have little distance. All the projectiles in the world won't matter if he doesn't have good close up game, the only move that seems viable as of right now is forward and maybe back air, for close and approaches. Once the opponent get's close, and starts pressuring him from up-close it will be extremely hard to gain momentum back. But then again M2k said he will main him, so he could pretty much become top tier.
 

Aninymouse

3DS Surfer
Joined
Jan 21, 2007
Messages
2,570
Location
Akron, OH
3DS FC
3540-0120-0225
Exactly. Mew2King has people thinking that Mewtwo is broken in Project M.
But Mewtwo isn't broken in PM, at all. M2K is just THAT good with Mewtwo, or pretty much any character. really. I've seen so many videos of PM Mewtwo where the person using him gets their butt handed to them, and it's clear that the character's strengths are nowhere near enough to compensate for poor player skill.
 

Rockaphin

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Messages
2,490
Location
Rogueport
NNID
Rockaphin
3DS FC
2595-0113-8473
Who I want top tier:
  • Villager
  • Rosalina & Luma
  • Greninja

Who I think will be top tier:
  • Megaman
  • Little Mac
  • Rosalina & Luma
Who I find underrated:
  • Villager
  • Wii Fit Trainer
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
That Olimar aerial frame data is pretty mediocre; they're not "slow", but they're sure not "fast" either. Snake's bair and dair are actually fast to come out which is my bad for not recognizing that, but all three of the others are sluggish (10f for a uair and a nair, usually fast aerials on other characters, is fairly poor) and the point stands that they take forever to resolve to the point that if Snake doesn't hit he's basically completely free to a punish with them.

I'd also like to reference this oldie but goodie:

http://smashboards.com/threads/internal-character-mechanics-values.244329/

First of all to finish the previous point about air games, both Snake and Olimar have awful aerial mobility ("awful" is probably too kind of a word for Snake's aerial mobility...). Mobility is just as important as aerials for a good air game, and they lack. I mean, I'm not goin to deny that overall both are excellent characters; they're just excellent characters who are weak in certain important areas which is the formula I believe we're going to see with smash 4 characters in general. If not for Meta Knight, Brawl would have already been the first test case really.

The bigger reason I bring up that thread is the weight stuff. In terms of weight out of 39 characters, Marth ranks 27th in Brawl while Zelda and Sheik are tied for 28th. I don't see how both could be called anything but lightweights; they aren't as light as Jigglypuff, but they're still significantly lighter than a typical character. I would not be surprised at all to see Rosalina in this weight range, and it wouldn't contradict anything we've been told. Zero Suit Samus is the lightest full sized human in Brawl, and at rank 32/39, I think that's about the floor for how light a character of that size is ever going to be in a smash game.

In terms of resistance to vertical KOs, it does have some effect, but I recall it being pretty small. I decided to do some in-game testing on this point to see what the numbers say...

Mario's uncharged no DI training mode usmash lowest integer kill percent on Final Destination (weight in parenthesis):

Samus (108): 128%
Captain Falcon (104): 136%
Bowser (120): 137%
Falco (82): 116%
Olimar (82): 114%

This tells us a few things. Both weight and fall speed are factors in your overall vertical KO resistance. Weight is the dominant factor and determines the general neighborhood you're in, and if you're a lightweight, fall speed has pretty little impact (Falco falls so much faster than Olimar, and it's only a 2% difference even from Mario's fairly weak usmash). On the other hand, if you're heavy anyway, fall speed can play a bigger role; Samus is still harder than most characters to kill off the top, but she doesn't get the same kind of protection that heavy and fast falling Captain Falcon has, protection so strong it is barely worse than what Bowser has! This kinda does prove the point I was making that Rosalina won't be especially scared of vertical KOs since she's a lightweight and with Brawl mechanics she's going to be about as well off as any other lightweight, but this also does prove that I left out a significant part of the story for which I do sincerely apologize (I really do hate spreading misinformation).

Well, that was fun; I haven't disagreed with someone on these boards and done in-game testing in years (I used to do it all the time!). Man, I sure look forward to smash 4 coming out so we can have these sorts of disagreements in earnest and then I can post walls of text mixed in with numbers from that game!
 

victinivcreate1

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
1,628
Location
New York City
NNID
Wiiu4ssb4
3DS FC
3007-8585-6950
That Olimar aerial frame data is pretty mediocre; they're not "slow", but they're sure not "fast" either. Snake's bair and dair are actually fast to come out which is my bad for not recognizing that, but all three of the others are sluggish (10f for a uair and a nair, usually fast aerials on other characters, is fairly poor) and the point stands that they take forever to resolve to the point that if Snake doesn't hit he's basically completely free to a punish with them.

I'd also like to reference this oldie but goodie:

http://smashboards.com/threads/internal-character-mechanics-values.244329/

First of all to finish the previous point about air games, both Snake and Olimar have awful aerial mobility ("awful" is probably too kind of a word for Snake's aerial mobility...). Mobility is just as important as aerials for a good air game, and they lack. I mean, I'm not goin to deny that overall both are excellent characters; they're just excellent characters who are weak in certain important areas which is the formula I believe we're going to see with smash 4 characters in general. If not for Meta Knight, Brawl would have already been the first test case really.

The bigger reason I bring up that thread is the weight stuff. In terms of weight out of 39 characters, Marth ranks 27th in Brawl while Zelda and Sheik are tied for 28th. I don't see how both could be called anything but lightweights; they aren't as light as Jigglypuff, but they're still significantly lighter than a typical character. I would not be surprised at all to see Rosalina in this weight range, and it wouldn't contradict anything we've been told. Zero Suit Samus is the lightest full sized human in Brawl, and at rank 32/39, I think that's about the floor for how light a character of that size is ever going to be in a smash game.

In terms of resistance to vertical KOs, it does have some effect, but I recall it being pretty small. I decided to do some in-game testing on this point to see what the numbers say...

Mario's uncharged no DI training mode usmash lowest integer kill percent on Final Destination (weight in parenthesis):

Samus (108): 128%
Captain Falcon (104): 136%
Bowser (120): 137%
Falco (82): 116%
Olimar (82): 114%

This tells us a few things. Both weight and fall speed are factors in your overall vertical KO resistance. Weight is the dominant factor and determines the general neighborhood you're in, and if you're a lightweight, fall speed has pretty little impact (Falco falls so much faster than Olimar, and it's only a 2% difference even from Mario's fairly weak usmash). On the other hand, if you're heavy anyway, fall speed can play a bigger role; Samus is still harder than most characters to kill off the top, but she doesn't get the same kind of protection that heavy and fast falling Captain Falcon has, protection so strong it is barely worse than what Bowser has! This kinda does prove the point I was making that Rosalina won't be especially scared of vertical KOs since she's a lightweight and with Brawl mechanics she's going to be about as well off as any other lightweight, but this also does prove that I left out a significant part of the story for which I do sincerely apologize (I really do hate spreading misinformation).

Well, that was fun; I haven't disagreed with someone on these boards and done in-game testing in years (I used to do it all the time!). Man, I sure look forward to smash 4 coming out so we can have these sorts of disagreements in earnest and then I can post walls of text mixed in with numbers from that game!
Good read and fun debating with ya. I applaud your efforts.
 

bigbro2233

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
443
Location
Inside of a Wii Remote
Little Mac will be the one who is all about power. Many people prefer melee attacks, and well, Little Mac certainly fits the description. His OHKO move is also certain to be feared, as everyone will know its power. I think he will rise up the ranks well.
 

victinivcreate1

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
1,628
Location
New York City
NNID
Wiiu4ssb4
3DS FC
3007-8585-6950
Little Mac will be the one who is all about power. Many people prefer melee attacks, and well, Little Mac certainly fits the description. His OHKO move is also certain to be feared, as everyone will know its power. I think he will rise up the ranks well.
But Smash is a spacing game, and Little Mac's lack of disjointed hitboxes, plus a lackluster air game and recovery make me wonder. Also his ground game doesn't scream stage control like Olimar/Diddy/Snake either. It is just fast and powerful. Yes he moves lightning quick on the ground and can interrupt spacing easily, but grabs (more specifically shield grabs) should hard counter him. Grabs go through any type of armor minus invincibilty (would that count as an armor?) and up throw sets up juggles. Just block his attacks (unless they have high shieldpush or break shields in one hit) and up throw him. Then Little Mac can be carried off stage and gimped.
 
Last edited:

bigbro2233

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
443
Location
Inside of a Wii Remote
But Smash is a spacing game, and Mac's lack of disjointed hitboxes, plus a lackluster air game and recovery make me wonder. Also his ground game doesn't scream stage control like Olimar/Diddy/Snake either. It is just fast and powerful. Yes he moves quick on the ground and can interrupt spacing easily, but grabs should hard counter him. Grabs go through any type of armor minus invincibilty (would that count as an armor?) and up throw sets up juggles. Mac can be carried off stage and gimped.
But if you catch someone off guard, you can destroy them. It's like Captain Falcon, but even more powerful ground moves.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

Old rivalries live on!
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
22,477
Location
Mushroom Kingdom
NNID
TPitch5
3DS FC
5327-1637-5096
At this point, it's still too early to be talking about tier placements. At least wait until after E3 2014 before making this kind of topic.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom