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Which fighters do you think would not have returned if Ultimate was different?

Mogisthelioma

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Since there are many returning veterans in Ultimate, the space for newcomers was very limited. Sometimes I'd like to image what newcomers would have made it if this was not the case, if not everyone was here. If Ultimate did not have this treatment, which fighters do you think would not have made the cut?

:ultcorrin::ultdoc::ultduckhunt::ultgreninja::ultlucina::ultmiifighters::ultpichu::ultdarkpit::ultroy::ultsnake::ultwiifittrainer::ultyounglink:
 

staindgrey

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Man, you make a lot of threads.

:ultpichu: is really the only certainty.
 

letsgetsmashing

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Cut
Okay so for sure :ultpichu::ultyounglink: would've been cut. To me, Snake, Ivysaur, Squirtle, Wolf, and Ice Climbers were all actually missed and stood a chance of coming back even if Ultimate didn't have every character. Pichu and Young Link kind of just came back so they could say "Everyone is Here!". It's telling when the other cut Melee characters, Roy, Dr. Mario, and Mewtwo, all came back in some form during Smash 4's lifespan.

I think :ultcloud: might not have made it because he was the WTF DLC. To address the other DLC 3rd parties, I don't think they would've cut :ultbayonetta: or :ultryu:. Bayonetta is basically a 1st party now and Platinum Games and Nintendo are close. Ryu is a really big character and it would be kind of weird for Nintendo to ask to bring Mega Man back but not Ryu.

I think :ultdarkpit: and :ultdoc: would've been made alt costumes because of the backlash of their inclusion in Smash 4. Lucina would've stayed because of how popular she is. I mean in the actual Fire Emblem community she's arguably more popular than Marth.

:ultcorrin:, :ultrobin, or :ultroy: all had the chance of getting cut, at least one of them would've. Sakurai has stated he thinks there's too many FE characters. I think if everyone had not came back, he would've at least removed one. Roy is the most popular, but Corrin and Robin have unique movesets. I'd say Corrin would be cut though because Sakurai was practically forced to include him in the game, so he likely had no attachment to the character.

Now I'm going to address some characters that many think had the potential of being cut, but I don't. Bayonetta and Ryu will not be included here as I already addressed them.

It's hard to say if :ultsnake: would've returned or not, because we don't know if :ultsimon: would've made it into the game if everyone had not returned. But I think due to Konami and Nintendo's growing relationship, if Simon made it, Snake would've too.

:ultmewtwo: and :ultlucas: would've definitely returned because there was backlash when they were initially cut. Sakurai noticed this and decided to have them return. They're both more popular than others in their series so I doubt they would've been axed once again.
:ultmiifighters: would've 100% returned and here's why. Sakurai included them to exemplify the fact that you can fight as anyone in Smash Bros. He wouldn't take that idea away, especially after he worked so hard for it to come true. Plus the Miis are still a big part of Nintendo's image as all, even if they are fading.

All the retro characters (:ultduckhunt::ultgnw::ulticeclimbers::ultrob:) would've return because they represent what is so amazing about Smash. All of these forgotten favorites getting to come together and battle is what makes the game so interesting. Plus, they all have incredibly unique movesets that surely took a long part of Sakurai's time. Unlike others, like Link or Kirby, who practically have moves made for Smash in their games, these characters required a ton of thinking by the development team to come up with innovative moves.

Transformation characters were cut in Smash 4 due to 3DS limitations. So with that out of the way, I do honestly think:ultpokemontrainer: would've returned whether the game was branded as Ultimate or not. Charizard was criticized for feeling out of place without his two partners, and the trainer was one of Smash's best ideas to date.

:ultwiifittrainer: Wouldn't have been cut for the same reason as the retro characters. It's an extremely fun idea that represents what Smash is.

After doing this, I kind of theorized why the game became Smash Bros Ultimate. I think with the 3DS limitations not in the way anymore and Sakurai realizing the popularity of so many cut characters, he realized that the amount of characters he actually didn't plan on bringing back (probably just Pichu and Young Link, and maybe Snake) was not a great enough amount to just bring everyone back. Ice Climbers and Pokemon Trainer were both always coming back in Ultimate, Wolf was popular and greatly missed, and Snake was also a fan favorite.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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Everybody that was absent in Smash 4 except for :ultsnake: as the sole returning veteran. Probably cutting :ultlucario::ultroy::ultwiifittrainer: outright. Also :ultjigglypuff: had been nearly cut in every game so her too. I don't think the Everybody Is Here hook would have impacted the decisions regarding what to do with clones, so :ultdoc::ultlucina::ultdarkpit: are either safe or made into Alph/Koopaling style costumes.

But man am I glad they decided to get everybody back. They wouldn't be able to fight the urge to sell us back characters we used to be able to play as and that's scummy.
 
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Archimedes

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Not many if any at all from the smash 4 roster. Smash wasnt that long ago and it would be very upsetting for many if especially the original characters to that game didnt return. Which is probably part of the reason they made "everyone is here" a priority.
 

staindgrey

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:ultcorrin:, :ultrobin, or :ultroy: all had the chance of getting cut, at least one of them would've. Sakurai has stated he thinks there's too many FE characters.
Okay, when and where.
 

Mariomaniac45213

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:ultyounglink:, :ultpichu:, :ultsnake: are the only 3 I was certain would never have made it back before Ultimate. Everyone else I could see returning eventually, yes even :ultcloud: to my dismay.
 

staindgrey

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Here's a recap of the English translation of the article he wrote in Famitsu following the release of Corrin and Bayonetta
https://nintendoeverything.com/saku...-corrin-and-bayonetta-in-smash-bros-wii-u3ds/
it's the 496th volume of his Famitsu writing's if you want to look up the original version for yourself
Thank you. Though your summary wasn't exactly correct; it doesn't say anywhere there that Nintendo pressured him into putting in Corrin. That's a yarn pushed by the anti-Corrin community that's never been corroborated.

It's still interesting, though, considering they still added Chrom to Ultimate. Clearly either Sakurai had a change of heart during the process of developing Corrin, or the ballot really showed a desire for Chrom.
 
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letsgetsmashing

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Thank you. Though your summary wasn't exactly correct; it doesn't say anywhere there that Nintendo pressured him into putting in Corrin. That's a yarn pushed by the anti-Corrin community that's never been corroborated.

It's still interesting, though, considering they still added Chrom to Ultimate. Clearly either Sakurai had a change of heart during the process of developing Corrin, or the ballot really showed a desire for Chrom.
I think Sakurai felt bad about adding Corrin because in the Smash 4 cycle, Robin and Lucina were both added to the game and Roy returned, which made a lot of fans mad. But really when you think about it, Robin was the Fire Emblem Awakening rep, Lucina was a clone which requires little time, and Roy had come back from Melee as a part of DLC, so the series wasn't really as overrepresented as many like to believe. I think Chrom got in as an echo because Sakurai didn't want to add him as a full blown unique fighter because he knew there would be backlash and he probably wasn't as requested as the top priorities like King K. Rool and Ridley.
 

Gyrom8

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:ultyounglink: and :ultpichu: for sure. I mean it's great everyone's back, but those two definitely felt like side-effects of 'everyone's here' as unlike Ice Climbers, Snake or Wolf I can't imagine they had much of a presence at all in the ballot.
 

TheTrueBrawler

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I would defiantly say the following would be cut.
:ultyounglink:, :ultdarkpit:, :ultlucina:, :ultpichu:, :squirtle:, :ivysaur:, :ultwiifittrainer:, :ultryu:, :ultsnake:, :ultcloud:, :ultbayonetta:, and :ultmiifighters:.

Probably the following would be cut as well.
:ultdoc:, :ultwolf:, and :ultpacman:.

The following could go wither way to be honest.
:4charizard:, :ultduckhunt:, and :ulticeclimbers:.
 

Mogisthelioma

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I remember my friends and I were so sure the Miis, WFT and Dark Pit would be cut. When I say WFT in the E3 video before Snake showed up I thought everything had gone to ****.
 

SmasherMaster

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Ultimate Returning Tier List

Tier 1- Ha, as if they would be cut.
:ultbowser::ultfalcon::ultdiddy::ultdk::ultfox::ultkingdedede::ultlink::ultkirby::ultluigi::ultmario::ultmarth::ultmetaknight::ultolimar::ultpeach::ultpikachu::ultpit::ultsamus::ultwario::ultvillager::ultyoshi::ultzelda:

Tier 2- Even if it isn't a port, I doubt these guys getting cut.
:ultbowserjr::ultduckhunt::ultfalco::ultganondorf::ultike::ultlittlemac::ultlucario::ultmiifighters::ultgnw::ultpalutena::4charizard::ultrob::ultrobin::ultrosalina::ultsheik::ultshulk::ultwiifittrainer::ultzss:

Tier 3- Probably coming back but who knows if legal stuff stop them from appearing.
:ultbayonetta::ultcloud::ultmegaman::ultpacman::ultryu::ultsonic:

Tier 4- I can see being cut, but I think that this a port, so probably not.
:ultcorrin::ultdarkpit::ultdoc::ultgreninja::ultjigglypuff::ultlucas::ultlucina::ultmewtwo::ultness::ultroy::ulttoonlink:

Tier 5- Even if it is a port, they'll probably be on the characters for it, like King Boo or Bowser Jr for Mario Kart 8 Deluxe.
:ulticeclimbers::ultwolf::ivysaur::squirtle:(either solo or with Trainer)

Tier 6- Konami please?
:ultsnake:

Tier 7- I thought they just gave him a name change and graphic update?
:ultyounglink:

Tier 8- Never coming back.
:ultpichu:
 
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Swamp Sensei

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Wii Fit Trainer staying was obvious even before the reveal of Everyone is Here.

Miis too.

I've yet to see an actual good argument for why they should be cut.

Only reason people think they'd go is that they don't like them.
 

Yitsul

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Sticking with the 1 moveset rule...
:squirtle::ivysaur: in other words, Let Charizard fly solo!
To reduce redundancy
:ultpichu::ultdoc::ultyounglink:
 

Oddball

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Dr. Mario feels like he's here to stay. I really don't see him disappearing for good.

Dark Pit though, him I can see getting worked back into just being a costume.

Other than that Young Link and Pichu like everyone else said.
 

Michael the Spikester

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Tough to say but :ultpichu:and:ultyounglink:are easily no brainers.

:ultsnake:probably wouldn't had returned either. :ultdarkpit:maybe since there was so much backlash against him.

I would imagine :ultroy: and :ultwolf:also not returning either.
 

smashingDoug

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How I could actually see the roster be made if cuts had to be made to do limitations

Cut
:ultcloud::ultlucario::ultmegaman::ultryu::ultbayonetta::ultroy::ultdarkpit::ultyounglink::ultsnake::ultpokemontrainer::4charizard::ultsheik::ulticeclimbers::ultrob::ultgnw::ultduckhunt::ultwiifittrainer::ultvillager:

Remade
:ultluigi::ultganondorf::ultkingdedede:

Wouldn’t be a newcomer
:ultchrom::ultdarksamus::ultsimon::ultrichter::ultisabelle:

Maybe cut
:ultrobin::ultcorrin::ultbowserjr::ultrosalina::ultjigglypuff::ultfalco::ultwolf::ulttoonlink:

One or the other
:ultmarth::ultlucina: IMO Marth would make the cut...again as he got over the other Main lords back in melee
:ultness::ultlucas: IMO Ness would make the cut... again


Would be in the Final roster with the icons I have to choose from
:ultmario::ultluigi::ultpeach::ultbowser::ultlink::ultzelda::ultganondorf::ultkirby::ultmetaknight::ultkingdedede::ultpit::ultpalutena::ultfox::ultshulk::ultyoshi::ultwario::ultfalcon::ultolimar::ultdk::ultdiddy::ultkrool::ultsamus::ultzss::ultridley::ultsonic::ultpacman::ultpikachu::ultmewtwo:Gen 8 marketing Pokémon :ultmarth::ultike: new Main Character or Avatar
 
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Blackwolf666

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Definitely wouldn't have returned
:ultyounglink::ultpichu:

High chance to be cut (IMO)
:ultroy::ultlucina::ultdarkpit::ultcloud::ultmiifighters::ultdoc: (the concept of :ultpokemontrainer: and switching pokemon)

May have not returned (IMO)
:squirtle::ivysaur::ultryu::ultsnake::ultmewtwo::ultbayonetta::ultgreninja::ultwolf::ultbowserjr:
 
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EricTheGamerman

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I think without the Everyone is Here angle we get another handful of cuts and most of the previous cuts remain in effect:
:ultpichu::ultyounglink::squirtle::ivysaur: all would probably have stayed off the roster. I think Pokemon Trainer is a lot of work despite his mechanic and it would have been easier to just keep Charizard as his own thing.
:ultsnake: has a lot of variables in play, but I'd honestly just expect him to remain out of the game even with Simon Belmont making it in. Maybe due to the Konami and Kojima situation, maybe because he was supposed to remain a one time special guest.

From Smash 4 I think we cut:
:ultroy::ultlucas::ultcorrin::ultwiifittrainer: - These characters seem the most expendable to me of the roster generally speaking. I know that Lucas and Roy came back to Smash 4 via fan demand, but I think they were both cut in the first place because they're a little more expendable as semi clones. Corrin has the most backlash of arguably any character and is another Fire Emblem rep, so they might go. Wii Fit Trainer is admittedly unique. but I'm not sure she has the staying power of the retro reps to keep in the game.
:ultryu::ultcloud: - The it's complicated third parties. I think Sonic, Mega Man, and Pac-Man are a pretty solid three third parties for the franchise to keep around and have various reasons for being there. Ryu and Cloud do too, but they also are probably the easiest to cut if the licensing issues are just beginning to add up. I wouldn't necessarily say that they're out, but they have a chance of not making it too.
:ultdarkpit::ultlucina::ultdarksamus::ultrichter::ultdaisy::ultchrom: - I think Echo fighters are largely a by-product of this focus on Everyone is Here. To add more characters to the game when the unique newcomers are limited and to satisfy fan demands. I think Dark Pit and Lucina are certainly made back as alts. Daisy, Dark Samus, and Chrom just remain recolors for their base characters or costumes at most. And I think Richter doesn't even exist at all without the advent of Echo fighters.

While I don't think necessarily all of these cuts have to be made in a more typical Smash game, I do think this is more likely the path taken as we cut several characters and don't even bother with some of the other returning ones. This list alone would put Ultimate down 11 unique characters (or at least primarily numbered ones) if all cuts are made and the clones effectively annihilated. A big departure, but I think a more traditional approach to the new game would demand more sacrifice and the sense of priorities would likely be very, very different.
 
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