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Where would Bowser Jr be on the tier lists if...

FlabbyOrb

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 15, 2015
Messages
41
NNID
amacadaeg
where would the koopalings be on the tier list if they had a command grab as their neutral-b instead of the cannonball? one similar to warios that comes out super quick, essentially giving junior the ability to grab out of jump cancelled kart.
This eliminates jr's worst problem, shielding.
 

Duck SMASH!

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 5, 2015
Messages
418
Location
Ontario, Canada
NNID
C.Piglet
This is a hypothetical scenario that will never happen because Sakurai will NOT be completely retooling moves for anyone.
Hitbox adjustment, maybe. But brand new moves? Forget it.

And although you are right in that Jr. is an offensive character who cannot deal with shields, I don't think a command grab is what we need anyway.
 

Conn1496

Smash Ace
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TBH I'd rather they just up shield damage on stuff like canonball... *shrug* TBH that damn thing should shatter shields if it's fully charged. Right now to 'reliably' shield break we have to lock them up with a MK then side-b and hit all 3 hits of up-b including hammer while they're still stuck because of MK placing. I mean, I guess there's other methods, but that's the only one I've hit out on several occasions with D-smashes after pressure being a close second.

I think a command grab would be excessive, TBH. You'd just literally not use normal grabs, and it'd have to be an insane command grab to be worth using over just, say, good spacing with stuff like f-air (-and really, you want a command grab that's possible to use when your opponent is most likely to shield? Excessive, much?). Characters that have command grabs generally already have decent enough normal grab options too. Koops just ain't grapplers, that's just the unfortunate side effect of playing them, which is exactly why their shield pressure should be better - no sane player shields half of the good shield damaging stuff we have with exception of D-smash, and that's a shield finisher at best. Sure we have some lingering hitboxes that can pressure really nastily in the right circumstance, but it's still not enough for reliable shield pressure.

Then again, you could argue that since no sane person shields, say, mechakoopas, they have to roll, or jump, and those options can be capitalised on too, I suppose(?). It's just a very weird topic because although our shield pressure is just awful I've never suffered really because of it.

I've said it before, but Koops is like... Set-up after set-up after set-up. It's difficult, but you have to just get an opening and seize it.

That being said, Jr. did shield break Mario in his reveal with what was obviously a f-smash, so, you feel that would be more prominent in their play... What's with that, Sakurai? Huh? You gonna-- uhh?.. -live up to that idea? Huh?.. Ryu basically insta-breaks shields with a dumb move, and Marth can't even do that properly anymore, why can't we?
 

Reverbo

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 7, 2014
Messages
23
I honestly agree that a command grab would take him to the next level. He already has an outstanding combo game, is fairly heavy compared to his size, and has great spacing tools. His frame data and out-of-shield options would still be an issue, but being able to side b jump > command grab would be an amazing answer to his big issue with shields.
I might put him top 20.
 

pikazz

Smash Lord
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Sweden, Umeå (Currently in Seattle)
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pikamaxi
I dont think Jr needs a command grab, sure it would help him.
but using what he already has, he needs a better grab and what happens after grab! its similiar to how Jigglypuff works. jigglypuff is really weak on shield due her grab has no kill throw and no follow up what so ever.
Jr is in that boat except his BThrow kills earlier than Jigglypuff BThrow.

if he gets a guarantee follow up from a grab and/or a much more reliable kill throw, he would have better on shield
 

FlabbyOrb

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 15, 2015
Messages
41
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amacadaeg
I think a command grab would be excessive, TBH. You'd just literally not use normal grabs, and it'd have to be an insane command grab to be worth using over just, say, good spacing with stuff like f-air (-and really, you want a command grab that's possible to use when your opponent is most likely to shield? Excessive, much?). Characters that have command grabs generally already have decent enough normal grab options too.
what do you mean excessive??
 

Conn1496

Smash Ace
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692
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3DS FC
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what do you mean excessive??
It's a bit over the top - it'd likely be broken - being able to guarantee a punish on a shield is already something we have going for us with mechakoopas. Sure, it's awkward, and it's a punish with awful throws, but it's still basically free damage if they shield it.
 
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