When Will the "Big 5" End Their Reign

[Darklink401]

One can hope o3o

I wanna check out Laffen videos now tho, from how everyones praisin him XD

Speakin of, does anyone think there's a chance Ken and KDJ might go back to their former glory, or are they stuck just being "Great, but not AMAZING players" now?

 

[DtJ SmithZzz]

After Big House 4 I think it's clear that Mango is still leagues above any smasher atm. M2K is still a significant threat as is PPMD.

I think more and more players are starting to figure out Armada and Hungrybox relative to the other big 5.

dude cmon i know u better then that, we just gotta wait for kevin to come out of the shadows at apex

 

[victra♥]

yo man mangonation forever haha

 

[42rockjock]

I think the next 5 greats will be axe, leffen, westballs, fly, and shroomed

 

[Sketch]

I think the next 5 greats will be axe, leffen, westballs, fly, and shroomed

I personally think you're insane to think a pikachu will be top 5 . Only people on there way out of top 5 is hungrybox and ppmd( due to inactivity) and leffen is looking to go huge this year . then the other spot could be up in the air for hax,lucky, or westballz. ( but of course just my opinion)

 

[victra♥]

20xx is closing upon us. Fox, Falco, and Marth Trinity is the future.

 

[Darklink401]

I personally think you're insane to think a pikachu will be top 5 . Only people on there way out of top 5 is hungrybox and ppmd( due to inactivity) and leffen is looking to go huge this year . then the other spot could be up in the air for hax,lucky, or westballz. ( but of course just my opinion)

You say that, but Axe is number 6 right now so if HB drops, Axe can take over.

 

[Patrick Ray]

No new gods because melee is dead. #Kony2012

 

[Crawfiish]

You say that, but Axe is number 6 right now so if HB drops, Axe can take over.

"Axe is number 6"
It's pretty common knowledge that Leffen is by far #6 in the world right now. Axe is more around #11-15 I'd say.

I love Axe, but this year hasn't been his year. After EVO, we haven't seen good performance from him at all.

 

[Oskurito]

I would love to see more of axe's falco. I think his falco could serve him well if he works on it. He should be fine if he can keep his pika in good shape as well.

 

[Darklink401]

"Axe is number 6"
It's pretty common knowledge that Leffen is by far #6 in the world right now. Axe is more around #11-15 I'd say.

I love Axe, but this year hasn't been his year. After EVO, we haven't seen good performance from him at all.

Oh, so he dropped since 2013?

Huh...

 

[B-Will]

"Axe is number 6"
It's pretty common knowledge that Leffen is by far #6 in the world right now. Axe is more around #11-15 I'd say.

I love Axe, but this year hasn't been his year. After EVO, we haven't seen good performance from him at all.

It hasn't been his year? What are you talking about?

I agree that Axe is probably not number 6, but he is DEFINITELY NOT in the 11-15 range. I would put him firmly at #7 (behind Leffen), and I am not sure it is debatable.

Looking at 2014, he has placed very well. Placings such as 5th at Evo 2014, 4th at Zenith 2014, 5th at Super Sweet, and 5th At MLG Anaheim are elite at nationals. He had a few "slip-ups" if you want to call them that, e.g. Big House 4 and Pat's House 2 (placed 9th and 7th, respectively), both of which he placed outside of the top 5. I know that there are other tournies, but I am giving these as examples.

I don't think the guy places outside the top ten anymore at any tourney, national or not. And, don't quote me on this, he has beaten more gods than anyone else, outside of Leffen. Who else boasts taking sets off of more than one god (Wobbles doesn't count because he's retired) besides Leffen? Even if I am wrong about this, who possesses the track record and consistency that Axe has?

I have:
6. Leffen
7. Axe
8. Hax
9. Westballz
10. Is up for grabs. It could be anyone from Lucky to Shroomed to PewPewU to Nintendude to Kels to Fly to KirbyKaze to SFAT, etc. I am pretty certain of 6-9 though. (IMO)

That being said, any of these aforementioned guys has the potential to sneak into the top 5!

EDIT: I was thinking about this a little more, and I am sure someone could come up with an compelling argument that axe isn't #7 but to say he falls outside of the top ten in the world is just wrong in my eyes. That being said, I still have him at #7!

 

[Massive]

The likelihood of established players increasing their ability is high, but keep in mind that the top players are where they are because of their ability to adapt to new and unorthodox strategies. To remain on top, they constantly have to work to innovate or at least maintain their dominant playstyle. Unless they willingly step down, they are not going anywhere any time soon.

When one steps down whoever is waiting in the ranks will take their place. However, any "new gods" would probably arise from some black swan event. They will seem to come out of nowhere, and will dominate as if they were wired to play this game.

With the influx of new players we are receiving, I'm willing to bet we will probably see a new pro-level player arise within the next 2-3 years at the latest.

 

[Darklink401]

I've heard a lot about this Wobbles guy. Was he really that amazing at this game or what? o.o

 

[B-Will]

I've heard a lot about this Wobbles guy. Was he really that amazing at this game or what? o.o

He invented, or at the very least, was the first person to successfully use wobbling in tournament, hence his name. He was the best ice climber player in the world before he retired last year. He was consistently a top ten threat at every national for many years.

At Evo 2013, afaik was his last major tourney that he attended, he had beaten not one not two but three of the five gods on his way to second place (Mango, Hungrybox, and Dr. PP). I don't think anybody else, including Leffen, can boast that. Too bad he retired. (Anybody, please correct me if I am wrong on anything I posted above!)

EDIT: But yeah, I had wobbles ranked #6 in 2013 until he left. Players like Leffen and Axe weren't as established a year ago.

 

[Darklink401]

Wow, that's pretty cool. Wish he was still around, then, but might watch some of his matches.

BTW, since all the 'new gods' all had better skills than the first gods...would that mean that the NEW gods in a couple of years will eat Mew2King and such as if it was a Mew2King vs. Ken battle in 2014? x-x


I assume at some point, humans will just be able to do TAS-stuff in Melee. After we have microchips inplanted in our brains.

 

[strawhats]

He invented, or at the very least, was the first person to successfully use wobbling in tournament, hence his name. He was the best ice climber player in the world before he retired last year. He was consistently a top ten threat at every national for many years.

At Evo 2013, afaik was his last major tourney that he attended, he had beaten not one not two but three of the five gods on his way to second place (Mango, Hungrybox, and Dr. PP). I don't think anybody else, including Leffen, can boast that. Too bad he retired. (Anybody, please correct me if I am wrong on anything I posted above!)

EDIT: But yeah, I had wobbles ranked #6 in 2013 until he left. Players like Leffen and Axe weren't as established a year ago.

Wobbles had also beaten M2K at apex 2012 in bracket and at another tournament i'm not remembering in pools. So he's beaten 4 out of the 5 top players...also Armada has admitted that Wobbles is the hardest ICs player he has ever had to play...terrifying. Had Wobbles not retired and kept his positive/nothing to lose/EVO 2013 mindset going forward he would've definitely cemented himself as a top 5/6 player. No Doubt in my mind about that.

P.S. Darklink, We're already seeing about 20-35% of TAS levels of play with guys like Hax, Westballz, SW, Armada, and even sometimes mango with his pressure game doing insane ****. Even some of the stuff i see PP and m2k do with marth is ridiculous nowadays compared to what we were seeing say back in 2007. Same with fly trying to actually unlock more of ICs potential...God i wish Wobbles would just play more(he has the skill to actually make ICs pundits truly have something to complain about "ICs are broken"

 

[B-Will]

Wobbles had also beaten M2K at apex 2012 in bracket and at another tournament i'm not remembering in pools. So he's beaten 4 out of the 5 top players...also Armada has admitted that Wobbles is the hardest ICs player he has ever had to play...terrifying. Had Wobbles not retired and kept his positive/nothing to lose/EVO 2013 mindset going forward he would've definitely cemented himself as a top 5/6 player. No Doubt in my mind about that.

P.S. Darklink, We're already seeing about 20-35% of TAS levels of play with guys like Hax, Westballz, SW, Armada, and even sometimes mango with his pressure game doing insane ****. Even some of the stuff i see PP and m2k do with marth is ridiculous nowadays compared to what we were seeing say back in 2007. Same with fly trying to actually unlock more of ICs potential...God i wish Wobbles would just play more(he has the skill to actually make ICs pundits truly have something to complain about "ICs are broken"

ah. I didn't know that he had beaten m2k as well. Yeah, I wish Wobbles didn't retire either!

also, @ Darklink401 and @ Crawfish - you guys talking about axe reminded me about this article I had read a while ago:
http://meleeiton.me/2014/08/20/lemme-axe-you-a-question/
I found it an interesting read if you guys haven't read it already!

 

[Crawfish]

ah. I didn't know that he had beaten m2k as well. Yeah, I wish Wobbles didn't retire either!

also, @ Darklink401 and @ Crawfish - you guys talking about axe reminded me about this article I had read a while ago:
http://meleeiton.me/2014/08/20/lemme-axe-you-a-question/
I found it an interesting read if you guys haven't read it already!

i have actually! cool!

 

[Darklink401]

Huh.....that WAS interesting. Axe is cool, specially cuz he uses PIKACHU

 

[Pwii]

Man, I just checked out Lucky vs Mang0 at BH4 because of this thread. That was the best set I've seen in a super long time. Lucky is definitely the most swaggin fox since KDJ.

 

[BTmoney]

just remember that leffen already is a god. how many non-god people have beat hungrybox, armada, and pp lol?

no one

 

[MudkipUniverse]

I think "having a wife and child to take care of" is not a valid excuse to stop playing smash, It's not like Mang0 will not have any free time.

S Tier (In between Demi-god and God, it's sorta like how IC's need their own tier):
Axe
Leffen
Lucky (he almost beat mang0 when mang0 was playing his best.)

A Tier (The top-tier of the demigods):
Fly Amanita
Westballz (if this tech skill was put to use, then holy shiz)
Silent Wolf (he is the best player in my state of Washington, and one of the most technical players ever)
Hax
Shroomed

B Tier (will have to put in a lot to be God tier):
Plup
aMSa

C Tier (On their way to becoming demi-gods, this tier is also full of inconsistent players):
Nintendude
s2j
Fiction
Col Bol
The Moon
DJ Nintendo

 

[MudkipUniverse]

"Axe is number 6"
It's pretty common knowledge that Leffen is by far #6 in the world right now. Axe is more around #11-15 I'd say.

I love Axe, but this year hasn't been his year. After EVO, we haven't seen good performance from him at all.

Placings don't mean ****, but wins over higher players mean something. Axe almost knocked M2K into losers at TBH4.

Leffen being "without a doubt" #6 is kind of exaggerated, Yes, he is probably #6, but he holds that title along with other players.

 

[Crawfiish]

Placings don't mean ****, but wins over higher players mean something. Axe almost knocked M2K into losers at TBH4.

Leffen being "without a doubt" #6 is kind of exaggerated, Yes, he is probably #6, but he holds that title along with other players.

Except placings DO mean something, they mean a lot. Axe hasn't placed well enough to be called #6, 7, or 8.

And if you want to pull the "wins over higher players" card, I can tango this dance too baby. You didn't even give me a win, you gave me an "almost win". You know what almost winning is called? LOSING.

I did make a bit of an overstatement to say he is #11-15, but he just didn't do very well this year.

 

[Darklink401]

Except placings DO mean something, they mean a lot. Axe hasn't placed well enough to be called #6, 7, or 8.

And if you want to pull the "wins over higher players" card, I can tango this dance too baby. You didn't even give me a win, you gave me an "almost win". You know what almost winning is called? LOSING.

I did make a bit of an overstatement to say he is #11-15, but he just didn't do very well this year.

This is where we pull out facts

MELEE-FC10R Legacy August 12th-14th, 2012 3rd 3rd Kage
Kings of Cali November 10th, 2012 3rd 5th OkamiBW
Apex 2013 January 11th-13th, 2013 9th 25th V3ctorman
Kings of Cali 2 April 13th-14th, 2013 7th 4th OkamiBW
Project AZ Melee June 1st, 2013 1st 2nd V3ctorman
EVO 2013 July 12th-14th, 2013 13th — —
Southwestern Justice November 24th, 2013 1st 2nd V3ctorman
Kings of Cali 3 December 14th-15th, 2013 4th 3rd OkamiBW
Apex 2014 January 17th-19th, 2014 9th 9th Kage
Southwestern Justice 2 February 22nd, 2014 1st 5th Tag
SoCal Regionals 2014 February 28th-March 2nd, 2014 4th — —
Mayhem 3-8 March 8th, 2014 1st 2nd OkamiBW
Pat's House 2 May 24th-25th, 2014 7th 4th OkamiBW
Super SWEET June 7th-8th, 2014 4th 5th Drephen
MLG Anaheim 2014 June 20th-22nd, 2014 5th 9th OkamiBW
EVO 2014 July 11th-13th, 2014 5th 13th V3ctorman
Zenith 2014 August 2nd-3rd, 2014 4th 2nd ZeRo
Tipped Off 10 September 20th-21st, 2014 5th 3rd ESAM
The Big House 4 October 4th-5th, 2014 9th 5th SFAT



1st is singles, 2nd is doubles. Look at his singles record ever since MELEE-FC10R

1st place 4 times, 3rd place 3 times, 4th place 3 times, 5th place 3 times.


Sure, tournament record isnt EVERYTHING, but he HAS taken sets off of two of the "Five Gods" (Hungrybox and Mew2King), and individual games off of the other three (Mango, Armada, and PPMD).

The man is most DEFINITELY in the top 10, if not the top 8.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Except placings DO mean something, they mean a lot. Axe hasn't placed well enough to be called #6, 7, or 8.

And if you want to pull the "wins over higher players" card, I can tango this dance too baby. You didn't even give me a win, you gave me an "almost win". You know what almost winning is called? LOSING.

I did make a bit of an overstatement to say he is #11-15, but he just didn't do very well this year.

Axe places top 5 in nearly every big tournament. The reason He didn't at TBH4 is because he lost against m2k

And I don't mean taking sets, I meant just winning.

 

[Darklink401]

I think "having a wife and child to take care of" is not a valid excuse to stop playing smash, It's not like Mang0 will not have any free time.

S Tier (In between Demi-god and God, it's sorta like how IC's need their own tier):
Axe
Leffen
Lucky (he almost beat mang0 when mang0 was playing his best.)

A Tier (The top-tier of the demigods):
Fly Amanita
Westballz (if this tech skill was put to use, then holy shiz)
Silent Wolf (he is the best player in my state of Washington, and one of the most technical players ever)
Hax
Shroomed

B Tier (will have to put in a lot to be God tier):
Plup
aMSa

C Tier (On their way to becoming demi-gods, this tier is also full of inconsistent players):
Nintendude
s2j
Fiction
Col Bol
The Moon
DJ Nintendo

BTW, wouldn't Amsa moreso be C tier, or do you think he's worth the move up to B? =P

 

[JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines)]

Except placings DO mean something, they mean a lot. Axe hasn't placed well enough to be called #6, 7, or 8.

And if you want to pull the "wins over higher players" card, I can tango this dance too baby. You didn't even give me a win, you gave me an "almost win". You know what almost winning is called? LOSING.

I did make a bit of an overstatement to say he is #11-15, but he just didn't do very well this year.

If you look at how Axe placed in the last year in nationals and in regional tournaments, it is safe to say he is a consistent player who is atleast #8.