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When to use Counter to block recoveries.

Rango the Mercenary

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By habit, it seems that Ike players tend to do three major things when most of their opponents are recovering back on-stage:

1) Eruption. This is a kill move at under 100% for anyone in the game. Requires strict timing, but can throw even the best of players off.
2) Walk-off Fair and Dair. Used horizontally from the opponent or below the ledge for a kill-spike, perhaps as a last resort.
3) Let them get back on. Punish accordingly to the ledge recovery with USmash, grab, or Nair.

But Counter? Why would the slowest Counter in the game be useful for recoveries? Because it's an option that throws off a very small percentage of the roster. Two characters come to mind - Luigi and Donkey Kong.

Luigi has three methods to recover with. Green Missile, Luigi Cyclone, Super Jump Punch. All three of these can be Countered. More importantly, Luigi has a clear advantage on you in the neutral. For one completely inexperienced in the matchup, it can feel like a 7-3 advantage. Luigi recovers quickly, punishes everything you do, and seems to disrespect and disregard your defense and spacing. But take him off the stage, and the matchup turns to your favor. Counter will kill his Green Missile and hurt him with the easy opening of Luigi Cyclone. That leaves Up B, which is also very punishable with proper timing. Granted, he won't be doing this all the time and will adapt to find ways to mixup your Counter. That's where the previously listed 3 options come in. But with his wonky recovery and ability to stall you, he is one of those exceptions where Eruption isn't practical.

Donkey Kong is another. Up B is his only recovery option, and with an active hitbox, you will assuredly nail him with Counter if he recovers horizontal. That's when they'll be conditioned to go below the ledge and attempt a vertical recovery. At this point, you're shooting fish in a barrel because there is no one easier to hit with Eruption, in no small part due to the slow speed of his recovery.

Consider what I call the "1% rule." This is the rule that will help you greatly in odd matchups. What you can do to 99% of the roster, there will always be that 1% you can't. Free gimping to characters off stage? Ganondorf is the 1% that you don't thanks to his Side B turning the match in his favor. Want to go aerial against an opponent and space them with Fair and Bair? Rosalina is the "1%" that you are better off staying grounded and punishing her moves with shield and jabs.

We can talk more about the "1% rule" in another thread. But for now, focusing on Counter and when to use it will be a saving grace for our matchups against tough characters who beat us out in the neutral. Luigi and DK are the primary characters to use it on. I would argue Diddy Kong is as well, but many of them are too smart to recover low and prefer to get near the edge and simply tap Up B, leaving us no time or space to react. Lastly, Ryu seems to be a prime candidate to try it on thanks to his Tatsumaki Senpuu for similar reasons.

There are more, but who else is affected?
 
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Romans

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Wii fit is pretty vulnerable, but has the ability to hug the stage and approach vertical to make executing the counter more difficult.
Roy is pretty susceptible with his up-B being slower than marth and lucina's relatively, plus he is a fast faller so he can't stall off stage much - he's forced to up-B quick.
Link and Toon Link are vulnerable when approaching too low to tether. Same foes for ZSS, but her up-B requires more precision.
Fox and falco's firefox is also pretty straightforward, but most of the time they'll just side B.
Charizard is pretty susceptible.
Donkey is definitely #1 tho.
 

Routa

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Counter is amazing while edgeguarding Ike as Ike. In Ike dittos it is your best edgeguarding tool by far. Also it is good against Dark Fists Ganondorf. They tend to "linger" their Up-B (when you press down with pad after using Up-B it will not grab the ledge but continue going upwards). Yeah I'm not good at explaining but I hope you understood what I ment.
 

GhostUrsa

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I find it useful against most of the cast that can Shark the stage, as most that do don't snap to the ledge right away but go over the edge slightly first. This allows Ike to nail them, and allow Ragnell to lead them to their doom. It doesn't work all the time, as Lucina, Marth and Mario can Shark the stage and snap if they are right against the stage when they use it (for example), but I find that even in these cases it prevents some getup attacks. Plus with Ike's slightly smaller Ending Lag, it can be harder to punish him if they try to bait the Counter, miss the attack (they snap without sharking) and try to capitalize on the counter's ending.

You don't want to make it your end all, as it does nothing if they go over you or snap the ledge (predictability is doom), but it definitely needs to be mixed into our repertoire for Edge Guarding.
 
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Rango the Mercenary

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Wii fit is pretty vulnerable, but has the ability to hug the stage and approach vertical to make executing the counter more difficult.
Roy is pretty susceptible with his up-B being slower than marth and lucina's relatively, plus he is a fast faller so he can't stall off stage much - he's forced to up-B quick.
Link and Toon Link are vulnerable when approaching too low to tether. Same foes for ZSS, but her up-B requires more precision.
Fox and falco's firefox is also pretty straightforward, but most of the time they'll just side B.
Charizard is pretty susceptible.
Donkey is definitely #1 tho.
Gotta be careful with Wii Fit Trainer. She has about three ways to spike you if you flub it.
 

yo-yo_guy

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How could you forget Ness and Lucas?!? One of the most predictable recoveries that has a very strong hitbox, it's great for that match-up! Also little Mac, since his recovery options are difficult if not impossible to sweetspot the edge with it's also pretty good with that. It works pretty well against Roy too, you just need to drop down from the ledge first.
 

san.

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It's really useful IMO and a bit underutilized. Ike can counter most hitbox recoveries in the game and it'll kill or gimp/set up for gimps after like 70%. You get the best effect when mixing it with eruption, onstage dtilt/ftilt, offstage aerials/aether, and ledge trumps.

It's better on horizontal recoveries and not so useful against opponents recovering from below if they move fast enough. However, if you counter around the ledge area, you have a very good chance of hitting them during the 2 frame ledge vulnerability anyways.
 
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Arrei

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How could you forget Ness and Lucas?!? One of the most predictable recoveries that has a very strong hitbox, it's great for that match-up! Also little Mac, since his recovery options are difficult if not impossible to sweetspot the edge with it's also pretty good with that. It works pretty well against Roy too, you just need to drop down from the ledge first.
The only problem with Ness and Lucas is that countering them too close to where they make the initial burst just misses them entirely. If you mess it up with Ness the blast could easily kill you, and with Lucas the hit might not be strong enough to kill him. It's generally easier to use Eruption instead.
 

Rango the Mercenary

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Fought my Charizard friend in grand finals and he almost beat me. The ending blow on Game 5 was to use Counter against his Fly. He always goes very low with it and practically hugging the area of the platform. I'm trying to find ways where we can just go down and Counter right against the edge of the stage. Like, jump, fastfall, Counter right when we get near the ledge. This will avoid getting hit by a potential stage spike as well as knocking the player away, and even better if we know the player used their last jump. This could work on Mario, Charizard, Link, Toon Link, Little Mac, Shulk, Marth, and others. I'd also consider trying it against Luigi since, once they realize not to bother using Green Missile or Luigi Cyclone to recover, they will be forced to go low into Super Jump Punch.

However, again, we are risking a stage spike or even a counter Dair spike if they get back on stage and leave us offstage.

Hypothetically speaking, however, it could make a fantastic option if you jump into it first. Knock them offstage, and then jump. This causes your opponent to go low. Follow them and go low, hitting Counter right when you're at the edge and they're below you. They only have so much time to use Up B before they miss the timing and die. If you know they're out of jumps, you've run them dry to their last resort. If Counter hits at 70%, it's Game Over.


Trying some Counter practice against Mario. He loves to go deep and rarely NEEDS to use his second jump unless he's right at Up B range. Close enough to the wall, he won't be able to tech anyway. Otherwise, you want to hug the wall and get in front of him as much as possible.

Warning that doing this and him recovering gives him the chance to partial-charge FLUDD you if you're not careful. Granted, given Mario's aerial mobility, recovery options, and his own edgeguarding, simply trying to edgeguard Mario is an endeavor in and of itself.
 
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san.

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You don't need to go deep to counter. You can even begin counter parallel with the ledge if you're positioned correctly. Takes a short hop to position yourself for it though
 
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A2ZOMG

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It's better on horizontal recoveries and not so useful against opponents recovering from below if they move fast enough. However, if you counter around the ledge area, you have a very good chance of hitting them during the 2 frame ledge vulnerability anyways.
Ledge drop counter...

I swear, why does nobody do this? In general positioning from the ledge is easily one of the best ways to edgeguard as Ike in many situations where Eruption is less viable given how many options you can cover reactively.

Ike also notably doesn't risk as much as most characters going for ledgedrop edgeguards given it can be very difficult to ledge pressure Aether.
 
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san.

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Ledge drop counter...

I swear, why does nobody do this? In general positioning from the ledge is easily one of the best ways to edgeguard as Ike in many situations where Eruption is less viable given how many options you can cover reactively.

Ike also notably doesn't risk as much as most characters going for ledgedrop edgeguards given it can be very difficult to ledge pressure Aether.
True, we just don't use ledge drop enough in general. Ledge drop to double jump bair is also simple a lot of the time and really quick+fast since we can time it better, or ledge drop aether.
 

AvoiD

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Think it's great against characters who don't automatically clip the ledge if not sweetspotted. Mac, ZSS, possibly MK(?), etc. Though against Mac, it might be better just to time a dtilt and fair. It'll send them far enough to not be able to recover also. Don't think that running offstage and countering is that useful tbh, or even a great idea to begin with except against specific characters. Just situational and character dependent. It's a good mixup definitely, and characters like Ness/Lucas, Marth/Lucina/Roy, DK, and whoever will have an easier time landing it upon. I'd rather stick to trump bair or reading the get up instead of risking a possible gimp.
 

Rango the Mercenary

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Ledge drop counter...

I swear, why does nobody do this? In general positioning from the ledge is easily one of the best ways to edgeguard as Ike in many situations where Eruption is less viable given how many options you can cover reactively.

Ike also notably doesn't risk as much as most characters going for ledgedrop edgeguards given it can be very difficult to ledge pressure Aether.
Ledge drop is difficult since you fall away from the stage. The natural momentum has you "walking" off the stage before you fall. If you could just drop straight downwards into Counter, it would make it harder for opponents to slip past and underneath when you try to Counter them.
 

A2ZOMG

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Ledge drop is difficult since you fall away from the stage. The natural momentum has you "walking" off the stage before you fall. If you could just drop straight downwards into Counter, it would make it harder for opponents to slip past and underneath when you try to Counter them.
Preemtively instant ledge grab and wait. It's not hard. It's difficult to recover high against an Ike on the ledge unless you have extraordinarily good movement options given Ike can always jump back on stage and use his large hitboxes to control options. And ledgedrop counter vs most low recoveries is not hard to time.

I don't consider my Ike exceptional, but down here in SoCal, I've beaten Oki's Roy (in friendlies admittedly) significantly more than he's beaten my Ike, just simply because it's really easy to ledgedrop counter Roy's recovery. And Oki is overall a stronger player than I am who is on the list of candidates to be PR in my region.
 
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XDaDePsak

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By habit, it seems that Ike players tend to do three major things when most of their opponents are recovering back on-stage:

1) Eruption. This is a kill move at under 100% for anyone in the game. Requires strict timing, but can throw even the best of players off.
2) Walk-off Fair and Dair. Used horizontally from the opponent or below the ledge for a kill-spike, perhaps as a last resort.
3) Let them get back on. Punish accordingly to the ledge recovery with USmash, grab, or Nair.
4) Achieve glory

 
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