When to roll

Octorockandroll

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
Messages
98
#1
As a low level-player, one of my top priorities in improving my gameplay is getting rid of bad habits (always grabbing out of shield, only using one type of ledge getup, projectile spam, etc) I think I'm doing okay with it for the most part, but there's been one issue I haven't been able to curb all that well. I roll way too often, all the other people in my community know it and so do I, but no matter how many times I tell myself not to do dumb rolls going into a match I always end up doing them and getting punished for it.

I think my issue is that I don' know when a good time to roll is. I mean, I obviously know to avoid doing it on platforms and such, but aside from clear examples like that I seem to have trouble determining a good time to roll from a bad one. When is rolling appropriate and how can I avoid doing it in bad situations?
 

KirinKQP

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 31, 2017
Messages
224
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Springfield, Ohio
#2
The best time to roll is when you read an attack that you know would kill you or would lead to further combos or shield pressure. I.e. avoid a really bad situation that is too risky to challenge. A bad roll is pretty much a panic roll that the other player can react to and punish, or read and punish.

To avoid those situations, you should get better at the neutral and learn all kinds of setups and traps other characters (or people) do to start combos or kill setups.
 
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Joined
Apr 19, 2017
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ON, Canada
#3
If you see your opponent going for powerful yet laggy options like marth fsmashing in neutral for example, rolling can be a good option as it gives you a good option to evade the attack without the option of having shield pressure put on you. Otherwise rolling often has a better substitute (dashback, wavedash back, etc)
 
Joined
Jul 2, 2015
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681
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#4
Sometimes it may not be knowing when to roll, but the fact you might be doing it predictably.

If you have a tendency to overuse rolling then your opponent is obviously predicting your reaction to the situation. It's important not to panic because you will end up doing stupid things like that, and if you do it enough your opponent will figure it out.

You have to be able to stay calm no matter how bad things get and thinking on your feet is also important.

If you're tired of your rolls getting punished you either need to mix up your options better (instead of rolling try spot dodging or using a quick attack to get them off for example) or you have to start taking note on what they're doing and punish their option. Are you rolling because you know they're going to go for a grab? Are they following your roll and attacking/grabbing after it ends? Are they attacking to the left/right because that's where they think you're going to go? If you can notice how they're punishing it then try using that against them. If you're just rolling because you panic, then like I stated above you have to learn to stay calm and think.

Sometimes a match can get really scary and you may be on the ropes, but the moment you start panicking is when your opponent will surely win. Don't ever let your opponent frighten you or get in your head. You want to be able to do that to them instead.

Never forget losing isn't the end of the world.
 
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sneak_diss
#5
As a low level-player, one of my top priorities in improving my gameplay is getting rid of bad habits (always grabbing out of shield, only using one type of ledge getup, projectile spam, etc) I think I'm doing okay with it for the most part, but there's been one issue I haven't been able to curb all that well. I roll way too often, all the other people in my community know it and so do I, but no matter how many times I tell myself not to do dumb rolls going into a match I always end up doing them and getting punished for it.

I think my issue is that I don' know when a good time to roll is. I mean, I obviously know to avoid doing it on platforms and such, but aside from clear examples like that I seem to have trouble determining a good time to roll from a bad one. When is rolling appropriate and how can I avoid doing it in bad situations?
thats really based on experience and understanding of the neutral.


learn how to move as well. like, play against a lvl 3 cpu for a punching bag and learn how to move and play fluidly.
 
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
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#6
Not rolling is your best option. Some characters can get away with rolling, but those frames don't allow you to do anything else that you could have otherwise done just by walking away.
 

Munomario777

Smash Master
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#7
If you're using rolls a lot for moving in neutral – that is, when both players are in a pretty even stage position and are both looking for a way to land an initial hit to get some momentum going – then that's one big problem. Rolls are very predictable as general movement, since their set distance and endlag make them easily punishable. Try dashing, walking, or sometimes jumping instead. These options give you mobility while still allowing you to react to situations, such as by shielding out of a dash or walk to defend against attacks.

If you're using rolls a lot after shielding an attack, as an attempt to escape pressure, then that can also get predictable. Rolls are a useful tool here, of course, but they're only *one* of your tools. No move in Smash is good if you only use that move. Here, try using other out-of-shield options based on the situation. Grabs, spotdodges, jumps, aerials, up specials, up smashes, and rolls all have their strengths and weaknesses for escaping a shield pressure situation, so try using all of them to get familiar with when you can and can't use them.

If you're using rolls a lot when your opponent aggressively approaches you, the same concept applies. Rolls are handy, but punishable if spammed. Try shielding, attacking, evading (such as with extended dash dances and perfect pivots, if you're able to get those techniques down), or sometimes spotdodging, based on what your opponent is trying to do.

If you're not sure when exactly you're rolling too much, then I'd suggest keeping mental notes of it as you play, and being careful to notice the times you roll and what happened immediately before. Also, watch as many of your own replays as you can, in order to get another perspective without the heat of the moment distracting you.

And as a general way to get rid of bad habits, one thing I think is pretty helpful is formulating a quick plan in your head before you do anything in a match. Just think to yourself, "I'm in my shield and he's attacking me, so I'm going to try and grab him." If you think about what you're doing and why you're doing it before making your move, you'll most likely fall into those bad habits less often.
 
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#8
Not rolling is your best option. Some characters can get away with rolling, but those frames don't allow you to do anything else that you could have otherwise done just by walking away.
generally not a good option yes, but you can make good use of it when your movement is crisp and you're using a character with a useable roll. can be also good for Cross-ups too ( getting behind your opponent).
 

DonOwens

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
39
#9
When I started playing higher echelon smashers I realized the same thing. Now that I've progressed, I may have a solution for you. It seemed to be the problem for me, and reading your post it seems it may be yours as well:
Playing too defensive. Playing casually I noticed I shielded/rolled way less and my neutral game was actually present, while when in any match I felt mattered or was nervous about, I would basically play scared and safe, leaving me cowering in shield and trying to roll. Think more about your other options, like shield grabbing, spot dodging or out of shield attacks.
 

Octorockandroll

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 18, 2017
Messages
98
#10
When I started playing higher echelon smashers I realized the same thing. Now that I've progressed, I may have a solution for you. It seemed to be the problem for me, and reading your post it seems it may be yours as well:
Playing too defensive. Playing casually I noticed I shielded/rolled way less and my neutral game was actually present, while when in any match I felt mattered or was nervous about, I would basically play scared and safe, leaving me cowering in shield and trying to roll. Think more about your other options, like shield grabbing, spot dodging or out of shield attacks.
You know I think you may be right on the money with this one. When I first started playing competitively I was playing way too aggressively and only got better once I became more passive and safe. It's entirely possible I may have just done a 180 and gone too far in the opposite direction and I guess part of the reason I roll so much is being drawn to the prospect of being farther away from my opponent. Really, I should thank all of you who commented, since you've all contributed to my recent rethinking of my playstyle. I've decided that for the next while at the very least I will stop rolling during an enemy approach. Instead I will try to go for shielding (or spot dodging if I anticipate a grab), jumping or as that one guy suggested, perfect pivoting. I'm not sure how useful that last one will be since my character doesn't get a ton of distance off of his pp and has very little in terms of range, but its still worth experimenting with. Not counting tech rolls, your replies have left me with what I think is a pretty good attitude for rolling: to only do it when:

1.) Your opponent is doing something unsafe that you can better punish with a roll than a shield.

or

2.) When you're cornered by the ledge, since at that point you'll be generally putting yourself in a safer position. Even if your opponent punishes your roll in this context, they will have a harder time KOing you since you'll be farther from the edges, something I picked up from watching higher level play.

Thanks once again to those who contributed, I'll be sure to try this new approach at my next weekly and return with my results.
 
Joined
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#11
The key to progressing as a player is realizing that your defensive habits should be part of sequences of moves, rather than standalone. For instance, you could short hop, then airdodge, then land and immediately roll away from your opponent (reacting to your opponent's position just before the roll to decide which way to roll). This is a good sequence because you could win stage control if your opponent moves forward and boxes himself into the corner, or get in a hit if your opponent commits to an attack and you can aerial out of your airdodge (which many good characters can).

In this case, the option you chose wasn't roll.

It was short hop, air dodge, land, roll. This is much more difficult for an opponent to react to or anticipate than just an empty roll in neutral.

Then, to make your rolling even less predictable, you can start to mix up your sequences. Sometimes instead of rolling at the end of your short hop air dodge land sequence, you attack with d-tilt instead. Or maybe you start off the sequence with a roll back, then a short hop air dodge forward, expecting your opponent to come after you to seize the stage control you forfeited by rolling back.
 
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#12
generally not a good option yes, but you can make good use of it when your movement is crisp and you're using a character with a useable roll. can be also good for Cross-ups too ( getting behind your opponent).
True. You just don't have to wait for the animation to finish if you don't roll.
 
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