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When is killing animals right?

When is killing animals right?


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Brother AJ

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If humans are equal to animals, and it is wrong to kill animals, then animals are wrong for killing animals. By this logic, my dog is evil because he kills squirrels/rabbits/anything he catches in the yard. He doesn't kill because he's hungry, he kills because it is his instinct. If it's ok for animals to kill because it is their instinct, and humans are animals, then it is ok for humans to kill animals.
There's no two ways with this. We're either above animals and are in the position to dictate when they live or die, or we are on the same level as them and the rules that apply to them apply to us. If the latter is true, then we're just animals killing animals, which is a perfectly natural occurrence.
I actually already explained this on the post above, but allow me to elaborate.

“If animals kill animals then humans should be able to kill animals.”

Why doesn't this argument work? Because, even in a world where everyone is considered "equal" certain rights can be given and taken away based on the various biological and mental capacities possessed by the individuals within that world. Equality is never absolute, nor should it be.

For example, children are not given the right to vote because they lack the necessary mental faculties to comprehend the political process. We do not charge the mentally insane or deficient and young children for murder, even if they did kill someone, because they lack the capacity to understand the ramifications of such an act or even know what “wrong” means. Despite these individuals not having all the same rights and consequences as sane and fully functioning adult humans do, they do, however, possess a similar capacity to suffer from harm and so their right to be free from harm is "equal" to that of the adult human.

This is where we come to animals (animals besides humans). Animals should have the right to kill other animals and not be imprisoned for it because they need to do so to survive, and, similar to a human who is mentally insane, do not possess the capacity to fully understand the ramifications of their actions. Humans, on the other hand, should not be allowed to kill other animals because they possess the biological capacity to not consume them, as there are plenty of nutritious alternative foods available (plants), as well as the capacity to both empathize with and maliciously harm all creatures. In this respect at least, we cannot be said to be "equal" to other animals.

Animals don't possess the capacity to vote or drive but they do possess the capacity to suffer from harm and so their right to be free from such should be regarded "equally" without prejudice.
 
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Welshy91

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Has it occurred to you that there are fates worse than death? Starvation is a terrible way to die, and if certain species overpopulate, they will suffer far more than what they would if they were shot and killed. Is it wrong to kill to prevent suffering? It is our responsibility as the top of the food chain to keep other species under control. To neglect that duty is to inflict needless, prolonged suffering of entire populations.

But to answer the question posed by the thread, I believe it is okay to kill animals so long as it isn't just for fun.
 

Brother AJ

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Has it occurred to you that there are fates worse than death? Starvation is a terrible way to die, and if certain species overpopulate, they will suffer far more than what they would if they were shot and killed. Is it wrong to kill to prevent suffering? It is our responsibility as the top of the food chain to keep other species under control. To neglect that duty is to inflict needless, prolonged suffering of entire populations.

But to answer the question posed by the thread, I believe it is okay to kill animals so long as it isn't just for fun.
Okay, this has nothing to do with what I just posted, but I can address this issue as well.

This is incorrect actually. Hunting primarily exists today because it is a traditional pastime. "Sport" enthusiasts enjoy the chase and challenge of taking down other animals. It is not necessary for controlling wildlife populations or for most people to obtain sustenance.

The issue here is that wildlife agencies across the world have a financial incentive to sell hunting licenses, and because of this they must continually artificially boost animal populations so that hunters may be able to continue hunting for generations to come. It is not possible for natural breeding to sustain the hunter's desire for, what can only be called, blood lust.

Source: http://ideas.time.com/2013/11/27/hunting-isnt-the-answer-to-animal-pests/

So, a good start would definitely be to refrain from artificially boosting wildlife populations for the sole purpose killing of them, but even then I wouldn't suggest that we necessarily must solve the problem of "overpopulation" through lethal means.

If we absolutely feel we must interfere there are many things that could be done other than hunting or killing to maintain animal populations, and this includes the handling of invasive species, such as birth control, deterrents (for when they enter human communities), and relocation.

I think we should keep in mind that generally humans do not know what they are doing when they mess with nature, and so sometimes the best solution is to do nothing. Naturally, when over-population occurs within certain species, it is disease, infertility, and starvation that reduce their numbers. The strong will survive. This is an unfortunate reality, but nevertheless it is how these species continue to grow, adapt, and evolve. Obviously we are not going to be able to save every animal on the planet from starving to death, and these are not even the animals that hunters go for since they prefer strong and healthy trophies.

Wat is this
IDK. What is you? :D
 

Smash G

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When I'm hungry. And I'm actually pro-animal testing if it's got clear benefits and isn't just torture. We've had two types of animal testing. The first is helpful and does indeed create treatments and medicines for humans that can save lives. The second is just terrible and is used for things like makeup or just doesn't have a real chance of helping.

Honestly, I'm under the belief that humans >>> animals (I know Humans are animals :p). I'd kill 1000 dogs if it saved one human life. However, I'm liberally a conservationist and want to CONSERVE and treat animals with respect except in the most needed areas (food, legit medical testing, etc). No killing off species for resources. Blablabla. The animal testing probably makes me sound a lot more conservative in this area than I am.
Also I try to take into account intelligence. No, I don't know where the line is but I really don't want to kill whales and apes. Intelligent species get a free pass in my book. Kind of arbitrary and if aliens who are 1000x more intelligent come along and decide to farm us for food I might have to re-evaluate my thoughts ;p.

But still. Even when it comes to whales and apes I'd still value any human (besides Hitler and other *****) as infinitely more valuable. If we can experiment on 100 apes and find a cure for a disease I'm kind of for it. The problem is knowing if something is actually going to be useful. Tons of animal experiments did nothing.


Overall I'm really unsure about it. I'll never give up meat but I'd sway more either way with good info.
 

Professor Pumpkaboo

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Well If my pet dog turnd on me and started to bite my arm, you are sure I am going to try ANY way possable to get him away, including death. I think you HAVE to put dmestic dogs down after that had tasted human blood, If I remember right.
 

Planet Cool

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For sustenance or self-preservation. Or if your dog is suffering from a terrible, incurable disease and you need to put him down or something. Killing animals for fun / sport is morally reprehensible.
 

FirestormNeos

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When the alternative is getting mauled to death by a 600+ pound grizzly bear.

Not that it was the smartest idea to go into the woods looking for deer crap, but hey, a dumb person is still a person.
 

LightlyToasted

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I'd like to pose that the reason killing other animals for food is fine but humans isn't is for the preservation of our species. The majority of people are OK with eating meat, but if they were told it was a human it would unsettle them. A smaller portion of the population would eat food, then be disturbed by finding out what they were eating is animal meat. I'm not saying that's not a bad way to think, but its just what I naturally feel. Now if animals could prove sapience, I and probably a lot of other people would probably much more unsettled to eat animal.

And preservation of our species extends to preservation of other species because they provide other valuable resources, whether physical or mental. Like dogs, which relieve stress provide companionship and other things, which we consider more valuable than their would be stringy meat and less than comfortable coats. So I guess you could relate it all back to Maslow's Hiearchy of needs, and how other species fit into ours. (See Wikipedia since I can't post links Still)

There are cases where emotional needs can surpass physical needs. One interesting power of the human brain, that not a lot of other species can achieve.
 

OmegaSorin

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Animals kill each other to survive, its the circle of life.

Humans are Animals.

Animals eat other animals.

Killing animals is natural.

Its nature.

Ask yourself, if a Tiger was hungry, would it think for a second that 'Maybe eating this human is wrong'.. No, it would attack, kill, and devour you instantly.

Now, I follow an Indian way of life. You kill, you use everything, you never kill what you don't need. A lot of people don't follow this, specifically sport hunters, and I believe if a species becomes overpopulated they should be quelled (This includes humans, but meh).

Its Natural to kill animals to survive, much like its natural to procreate, and natural to live in suitable conditions.

Overkilling is not cool though.
 

Sucumbio

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Animals kill each other to survive, its the circle of life.

Humans are Animals.

Animals eat other animals.

Killing animals is natural.

Its nature.

Ask yourself, if a Tiger was hungry, would it think for a second that 'Maybe eating this human is wrong'.. No, it would attack, kill, and devour you instantly.

Now, I follow an Indian way of life. You kill, you use everything, you never kill what you don't need. A lot of people don't follow this, specifically sport hunters, and I believe if a species becomes overpopulated they should be quelled (This includes humans, but meh).

Its Natural to kill animals to survive, much like its natural to procreate, and natural to live in suitable conditions.

Overkilling is not cool though.
Technically this is a 'bad' argument because it appeals to nature, and we're not supposed to derive moral truth from what we observe in nature, as it is considered getting an "is" from an "ought" which is bad.
 

Sehnsucht

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Technically this is a 'bad' argument because it appeals to nature, and we're not supposed to derive moral truth from what we observe in nature, as it is considered getting an "is" from an "ought" which is bad.
I read this in the voice of Mister Mackey.

To expand, the reason it's bad is because appeals to nature ("X is natural") can't supply moral information. That X is natural for us to do, or for life in general to do, tells us nothing about whether we should encourage or excuse X. There's a gap in the progression of the A->B->C premises, hence the fallacy that is the Appeal To Nature.

Also, I should try my hand at this thread's topic. Probably tomorrow or something. I trust to see you there. 8)
 

TOAST!!!

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I have to agree with OmegaSorin. It is nature, but that is what hunting and eating animals is, right? Killing animals is right if there is no personal connection. If you are killing your pet dog ,for example, that is wrong because you severed a bond with a living being that personally knew you.
 

no1butmenotu

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As a volunteer at the SPCA, the issue of animal killing is a huge shade of grey to me (This focuses primarily on domesticated animals), because there are countless scenarios in which a person may consider killing an animal. For example, I have seen footage and pictures of severely mutilated animals due to being abused by their previous owners. These animals are mutilated to the point that they aren't able to function at all without any type of major assistance. The only comparable thing that I can think of is keeping an individual alive who is in the state of being a living vegetable or pulling the plug (I understand that this is a very sensitive issue, but this is the only example that I can think of at the moment).

There are other cases in which animals are suffering from severe depression, or are acting violently towards humans, making them adoptable. There are also those that are suffering from rabies or any other type of diseases. What I understand is that the SPCA uses euthanasia as a last resort.

Personally, it's hard to say. We need animals for food, so killing for food is fine with me. What troubles me is the balancing aspect of this act. For everything that individuals take, they probably should also give back in order to balance out nature. Taking too much can lead to extinction, but then again so can natural selection.
 

Brother AJ

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Personally, it's hard to say. We need animals for food, so killing for food is fine with me. What troubles me is the balancing aspect of this act. For everything that individuals take, they probably should also give back in order to balance out nature. Taking too much can lead to extinction, but then again so can natural selection.
I agree with most of what you said, but this notion that we "need animals for food" is quite false.

American Dietetic Association - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864

You can read more links on this issue on page 1 post #23.
 

KACHOW!!!

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We should kill animals who are experiencing intolerable suffering (painlessly, quickly, and humanely), animals that taste good, rabid animals, invasive species that threaten ecosystems, and dinosaurs if we ever encounter a Jurassic Park scenario.
 

Brother AJ

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I have to agree with OmegaSorin. It is nature, but that is what hunting and eating animals is, right? Killing animals is right if there is no personal connection. If you are killing your pet dog ,for example, that is wrong because you severed a bond with a living being that personally knew you.
Sounds like rather twisted logic based on nothing more than prejudice. Would it be acceptable to kill a dog simply because she/he was a stray? Most people would not say that it is.

We should kill animals who are experiencing intolerable suffering (painlessly, quickly, and humanely),
This I agree with.

animals that taste good,
Are you joking? Seems to be a poor reason to kill another.

rabid animals,
Assuming there is no way to cure them, then yes, but people don't seem to understand how rare these cases are.

invasive species that threaten ecosystems,
Humans cause more damage to ecosystems than any other species on the planet. There has to be a better way to address these concerns without calling an executioner.

and dinosaurs if we ever encounter a Jurassic Park scenario.
LOL! That was random.
 
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KACHOW!!!

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Humans cause more damage to ecosystems than any other species on the planet. There has to be a better way to address these concerns without calling an executioner.

What about the out of controll wild boar populations that are growing in the United states? I've never heard anyone (even people who understand the environment and ecology) say anything other than : "Yeah, we should exterminate as many of these as possible." Assuming i'm not misinformed. Honestly, this is the type of question (the one posted that started this thread) that there's probably many many cases in which we'd all agree that each of our proposed solutions would actually be agreed upon by most if not every rational person as the best course of action. But you raise a lot of good counter points Bro AJ
 

Claire Diviner

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Humans cause more damage to ecosystems than any other species on the planet. There has to be a better way to address these concerns without calling an executioner.

What about the out of controll wild boar populations that are growing in the United states? I've never heard anyone (even people who understand the environment and ecology) say anything other than : "Yeah, we should exterminate as many of these as possible." Assuming i'm not misinformed. Honestly, this is the type of question (the one posted that started this thread) that there's probably many many cases in which we'd all agree that each of our proposed solutions would actually be agreed upon by most if not every rational person as the best course of action. But you raise a lot of good counter points Bro AJ
Ironically, said invasive species are the result of people introducing them into said ecosystem, so the fault lies not with the animal invaders. The cane toad in Australia is a very good and serious example.
 

TOAST!!!

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Bro Aj I am not saying killing any animal that i see, like a stray dog. When I said I agreed with OmegaSorin, I meant the whole thing about killing for food and when necessary.
 

erico9001

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I've come up with new points against Veganism and Vegetarianism.

From a diet perspective, smaller amounts of meat are good. In America, society tends to overeat meat, whereas the healthy diet is primarily non-meats with some meats. This is the healthy and easy diet because no special pills or special foods are needed to overcome the lack of different types of protein that meat provides. If smart, you can have a diet with no meat, but this is a pointless effort.

Eating meat bought from a grocery store does not kill animals.

The huge amount of food that is thrown out by grocery stores renders the morality side of the 'don't eat meat' argument invalid.
http://www.businessinsider.com/why-grocery-stores-throw-out-so-much-food-2014-10

Your purchase has absolutely no impact because there's a buffer zone. The animals are still killed whether or not all the meat sells. If you don't buy the meat, it's going in the dumpster. Furthermore, grocery stores aren't going to report that their meats are down by one package for this shipment.

Right now I can see you saying, 'Well, if I can convince a lot of other people to be vegan I can have an impact.' You are right about that. However, you would probably save more cows if you were trying convince people that they should be eating less meat rather than trying to make them completely stop. People in American society are somewhat obsessed with health - hence the success of many health news programmings (Dr. Oz) and websites. If people learned that 'eating less meat is a fast way to fight belly fat' they would go for it. Rather than a complete lifestyle change (and core principles change if you argue from morality perspective), it's a fluctuation in lifestyle - something manageable that will make you healthier.
-----
This thread aims to answer whether or not it is 'good' to eat an animal. This is not really answerable.

The reason we believe it is not okay to kill animals like cats, dogs, etc is mostly due to cultural influence. Other cultures such as Switzerland and China do not have this. People tend to dehumanize China due to this, but this ignorant; the people there are fully human. It is shocking and grotesque to think about (I've got a cute cat sleeping on my blanket 5 feet from me), but consider the pig. Pigs are smarter than dogs and the smaller pig breed (pot belly pigs) are great pets, but yet pig meat is the most commonly consumed meat worldwide. Well, why do you find it okay to eat pigs but not cats, why do other countries find it okay to eat cats, and why do many religious people find it wrong to eat pig? Culture.

Honestly, telling someone it's wrong to kill animals is basically saying 'my select culture finds this wrong.' It's not really an argument though.

When you get down to the core of it, removing cultural influence, the only wrong things to eat are human (unless in time of survival) and things that will get you sick or kill you. Not hurting other humans is wired into our biology - a product of evolution. For obvious reasons too - eating others of your species will reduce the population and increase extinction. This lowers the chance that any of the species will pass on their genes. You could also say that eating others in a group environment would lower your personal chance of survival in the wilderness.
 
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Sucumbio

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That's kinda like saying if I don't vote a Republican is still gonna win. Or if i don't drink and drive someone else still will. Ir something. Just cause grocery store meat is abundant doesn't mean animal rights activists don't have a case. Quite the opposite it seems. Killing animals for food is okay in my book so long as it's not wasted.
 

erico9001

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That's kinda like saying if I don't vote a Republican is still gonna win. Or if i don't drink and drive someone else still will. Ir something. Just cause grocery store meat is abundant doesn't mean animal rights activists don't have a case. Quite the opposite it seems. Killing animals for food is okay in my book so long as it's not wasted.
You're using false analogy. My argument is not like saying those things.
 

Sucumbio

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Seriously?

The huge amount of food that is thrown out by grocery stores renders the morality side of the 'don't eat meat' argument invalid.
The animals are still killed whether or not all the meat sells. If you don't buy the meat, it's going in the dumpster. Furthermore, grocery stores aren't going to report that their meats are down by one package for this shipment.
Don't stop eating meat because whether you do or not, the store is still going to just throw away the excess anyway.

Don't do X because your individual decision won't change the situation.

How is that not what you're saying?

Incidentally, the rest of your post has already been addressed quite well by BroAJ but to put a finer point on it - the argument against killing animals is a matter of respect for a fellow living being. It is "wrong" to kill people, it is "wrong" to kill animals, and to assume an ideology that okays one and not the other, is to be a hypocrite.

I do give you full marks for coming up with an alternative to vegetarianism. I agree fully that people in the US should learn to control themselves at the dinner table. Moderation and exercise are fundamental to living a healthy lifestyle. Trouble is much of America lives with untreated depression which is exacerbated by poor diet and laziness.
 

erico9001

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Seriously?





Don't stop eating meat because whether you do or not, the store is still going to just throw away the excess anyway.

Don't do X because your individual decision won't change the situation.

How is that not what you're saying?

Incidentally, the rest of your post has already been addressed quite well by BroAJ but to put a finer point on it - the argument against killing animals is a matter of respect for a fellow living being. It is "wrong" to kill people, it is "wrong" to kill animals, and to assume an ideology that okays one and not the other, is to be a hypocrite.

I do give you full marks for coming up with an alternative to vegetarianism. I agree fully that people in the US should learn to control themselves at the dinner table. Moderation and exercise are fundamental to living a healthy lifestyle. Trouble is much of America lives with untreated depression which is exacerbated by poor diet and laziness.
All you're trying to do is form my argument into different ones, say those are wrong, and therefore mine is wrong. The flaw here is they are not the same, and I can show why.

With not voting and drunk driving (especially the second one), there is the possibility that your action will change the situation. This would render the statement of "don't do X because your individual decision won't change the situation" false for these topics (mostly the second one, again). However, this possibility does not exist with buying meat, because the store is going to throw away the meat if you do not buy it.
Your purchase has absolutely no impact because there's a buffer zone. The animals are still killed whether or not all the meat sells. If you don't buy the meat, it's going in the dumpster. Furthermore, grocery stores aren't going to report that their meats are down by one package for this shipment.

Right now I can see you saying, 'Well, if I can convince a lot of other people to be vegan I can have an impact.' You are right about that. However, you would probably save more cows if you were trying convince people that they should be eating less meat rather than trying to make them completely stop. People in American society are somewhat obsessed with health - hence the success of many health news programmings (Dr. Oz) and websites. If people learned that 'eating less meat is a fast way to fight belly fat' they would go for it. Rather than a complete lifestyle change (and core principles change if you argue from morality perspective), it's a fluctuation in lifestyle - something manageable that will make you healthier.
-----
This thread aims to answer whether or not it is 'good' to eat an animal. This is not really answerable.

The reason we believe it is not okay to kill animals like cats, dogs, etc is mostly due to cultural influence. Other cultures such as Switzerland and China do not have this. People tend to dehumanize China due to this, but this ignorant; the people there are fully human. It is shocking and grotesque to think about (I've got a cute cat sleeping on my blanket 5 feet from me), but consider the pig. Pigs are smarter than dogs and the smaller pig breed (pot belly pigs) are great pets, but yet pig meat is the most commonly consumed meat worldwide. Well, why do you find it okay to eat pigs but not cats, why do other countries find it okay to eat cats, and why do many religious people find it wrong to eat pig? Culture.

Honestly, telling someone it's wrong to kill animals is basically saying 'my select culture finds this wrong.' It's not really an argument though.

When you get down to the core of it, removing cultural influence, the only wrong things to eat are human (unless in time of survival) and things that will get you sick or kill you. Not hurting other humans is wired into our biology - a product of evolution. For obvious reasons too - eating others of your species will reduce the population and increase extinction. This lowers the chance that any of the species will pass on their genes. You could also say that eating others in a group environment would lower your personal chance of survival in the wilderness.
 
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final lap

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My definition of morality is to do what we would have others do. (golden rule)

Your decision alone might not change anything, but if everyone thinks that way then of course nothing will ever change. That is unacceptable. Also, just because you as one person does not change anything, that does not mean it is morally right to simply not even bother. If you saw two of your friends bludgeoning someone to death in an alley, and you fail to convince either of them to stop, does that still mean you should join them? Should you envy them for not being burdened by the moral responsibility to not kill and abuse?

Furthermore, if what you do or don't do doesn't reflect what you believe, then you can never influence others to do the same. Simply by politely declining an offer for meat because you are vegan, despite "accomplishing nothing" in the short term you are nonetheless creating conversation and increasing visibility.
 
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erico9001

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My definition of morality is to do what we would have others do. (golden rule)
I think you may have just accidentally left this part out, but the golden rule is to do what we would have others do to ourselves. I don't know it that's how I would define morality, but that certainly is a moral principle.

Your decision alone might not change anything, but if everyone thinks that way then of course nothing will ever change.
And my decision has no effect on their decisions, so if I were vegan it would still change nothing. It is true this point only works for myself personally, which is why I then say this.
quote="erico9001, post: 18176514, member: 255713"]Right now I can see you saying, 'Well, if I can convince a lot of other people to be vegan I can have an impact.' You are right about that. However, you would probably save more cows if you were trying convince people that they should be eating less meat rather than trying to make them completely stop. People in American society are somewhat obsessed with health - hence the success of many health news programmings (Dr. Oz) and websites. If people learned that 'eating less meat is a fast way to fight belly fat' they would go for it. Rather than a complete lifestyle change (and core principles change if you argue from morality perspective), it's a fluctuation in lifestyle - something manageable that will make you healthier.[/quote]

Also, just because you as one person does not change anything, that does not mean it is morally right to simply not even bother.
How?
If you saw two of your friends bludgeoning someone to death in an alley, and you fail to convince either of them to stop, does that still mean you should join them? Should you envy them for not being burdened by the moral responsibility to not kill and abuse?
So I'm out going for a walk and I see two friends beating somebody to death. I try to convince them to stop but I fail. Now ... shouldn't I be trying to forcibly stop my friends? I don't see why you think I would be joining in - there's no benefit in joining in. Why would I envy them for being able to beat somebody to death? What are you even saying?:facepalm:
 
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final lap

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I think you may have just accidentally left this part out, but the golden rule is to do what we would have others do to ourselves.
That is correct, but I used the Golden Rule as an example to apply to morality and beliefs. It is arguably hypocritical to believe something while wanting others to believe something else, or to do something while wanting people do differently. So I guess you can say I take the golden rule but take if farther than what it actually means.

I don't see why you think I would be joining in - there's no benefit in joining in.
1) rhetorical question. 2) There's no benefit to NOT joining in. Apply that example to meat... everyone's doing it, thereby creating a complete and utter diffusion of responsibility, meaning that you can do meat and feel like you haven't done any wrong.

Why would I envy them for being able to beat somebody to death?
Again, these were rhetorical questions I was posing.
 

Sehnsucht

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Here are some thoughts on the ethics of animal treatment.

[collapse=Framing the Issue]
First, I think the thread question is curiously framed. Why not ask when is it wrong to kill animals? Or when it is expedient? Or when it is most likely to maximize personal amusement?

The more productive question, I'd say, is whether non-human animals are deserving of moral consideration -- which would answer, in turn, how we should (or should not) approach the wellbeing of other species. With this in mind, there are already several things we can infer.

Morality concerns choices -- what we should or should not do, for Situation X. And choices are perpetuated by agents -- entities that are self-aware, and are capable of reflection and introspection. If you can't reflect and consider a situation and its possible outcomes, then you can't deliberately "choose" one outcome over another.

Humans are capable of these processes, and can thus be considered agents. So we can say, at the very least, that humans are both capable of moral action, and capable of possessing moral consideration. We can shorthand this by saying that a human is a person (a close synonym with agent, in this context).
[/collapse]

[collapse=On Personhood and Morality]
Are non-human animals agents? Are they people, capable of considering the variables of a scenario and making choices accordingly? Well, this clearly depends on the animal species at hand. Let's take the most intelligent non-human species we know of -- species like cetaceans, great apes, corvids, pachyderms, etc. If we were to find that any or all of these species were indeed self-aware, and thus constitute as agents, then would they be worthy of moral consideration?

I would say that yes, they would be. If, for instance, a Bottlenose Dolphin was an agent (and thus, a person), then they would both be capable of moral action and reasoning, and also be capable of considering we humans under a moral lens (just as we could do the same for them). If morality concerns people, and humans and dolphins classify as people, then morality would concern both, so we'd all need to act accordingly.

Since we're a pro-social species by our nature, we (tend to) value pro-social acts and behaviours, and (tend do) vilify to anti-social acts and behaviours. So we can consider "right" and "wrong" actions and behaviours by the consequences they entail.

The killing of another person (human or otherwise) will tend to be in the wrong, under this social-metric of consequential ethics. All human action is driven by desire. We tend to want what we want, and tend to dislike that which impedes the fulfillment of those desires. And if most people share common desires, then the likelihood of maximizing desire-fulfillment will be greater (especially in the long run) if we all cooperate, helping each other satisfy what we want, rather than everyone going at it alone.

If most people want to survive as long as possible, then we can say that such things as murder is wrong -- and therefore, that one shouldn't murder non-human persons. If most people don't want to be harmed or injured, then we can say that self-defense is right, but that initiating aggression or force is wrong. So don't go punching elephants in their peanuts.

As for killing for sustenance or resources, then we can say that it's right to do so -- only with the consent of the non-human person (i.e. a dolphin consents to have itself killed and processed for food). If you try to kill a person, human or otherwise, for food without their express consent, then it's a violation of their autonomy, and would thus be a morally reprehensible act.

So long as you hold to this metric of pro-social, desire-driven consequential ethics, then you can easily derive edicts to guide how to treat with non-human persons.
[/collapse]

[collapse=On the Treatment of Non-Persons]
What about non-human species that don't possess agency, or personhood? Who cannot reflect on their own choices, acting and reacting purely by dint of instinct? Who cannot engage in moral reflection and reasoning, and thus cannot be subject to moral consideration, both in themselves and for their actions and behaviours?

So would it be right or wrong, for instance, to curb-stomp a chipmunk? By all observations, chipmunks don't appear to possess self-awareness. So it's improbable that they could be classified as agents.

But if that's the case, it would neither be right or wrong to kill a chipmunk -- because they can't possess moral consideration. Morality doesn't apply to non-persons.

So it's not about whether it's right or wrong to kill a chipmunk. You can, if it is your desire. Or you can refrain from doing so, if it is your desire. You can domesticate, rear, and slaughter livestock for nourishment, if you want. Or you can not do that, if you are so inclined.

However.

I would say that it might be better to treat non-persons pro-socially, when you can. So you're going to be kind to a fellow human, but be cruel to a dog? Why would you do this? This kind of selective empathy seems dangerous, since being selective in your empathy is a habit that could end up bleeding into how you treat actual persons. And being selective in your empathy toward humans is both inconsistent, and something to be discouraged (under the pro-social edicts established thus far).

Ants aren't agents. But in order to reinforce and exercise your sense of empathy, best not to crush them indiscriminately. If you have an ant infestation in your house, and you value not having an infested living space, then you might consider killing them. Killing or not killing ants (or insects generally) is neither right nor wrong; it's about whether you value your desires over the livelihood of these non-agents (insects, plants, reptiles, birds, whatever else).

Plus, mass mistreatment of animals (directly or indirectly) can lead to such things as dwindling of populations, which can affect ecosystems, which can come back to bite us in the human ass. So globally, treating populations in the environment with undue cruelty is a riskier gambit than leaving them be, or encouraging their preservation.

So basically, while non-persons aren't capable of being deserving of moral consideration, is there any reason to treat them poorly (via their killing or otherwise)? I can't think of any.

I will make an aside concerning animal meat, livestock, etc. The mass slaughter of domesticated livestock may be an inconvenience to these animals, but we value their meat more than their life (which is neither right nor wrong). However, I would say that it might be in our best interest to both consider how much meat we might actually need, and to ensure that livestock living conditions are humane (an especially salient point, since poor conditions can lead to things like contaminated meat, wasteful and inefficient use of resources, etc.).
[/collapse]

[collapse=On Aliens]
Since I'm here, I'll throw in musings on how morality might apply to extra-terrestrial persons.

Our morality is a social one (along a pro/anti continuum). The most intelligent species we know of besides us (e.g. apes, cetaceans, pachyderms, etc.) exhibit stronger social wiring as well. So in the event those species classify as persons, it would be much easier to treat with them under a social-moral paradigm.

What of non-human species, from Earth or elsewhere, whose fundamental wiring is not based in sociality? Such as an alien species that doesn't (and can't) care about individual lives, or doesn't understand the difference between order and chaos or life and death (for themselves and others), or a hive mind where individual personhood is a foreign concept? Or a species whose experience is so strange that we can hardly fathom it?

Our pro-social morality is an emergent one -- emergent from our ingrained behaviours, senses, experiences, and instincts. As per the above, however, it is possible that other alien species could exhibit emergent moralities that don't align along a social, mammalian continuum.

So how to treat with such beings will depending on multiple factors, such as whether mutual intelligibility is possible, whether the species in question can be reasoned with, and working out sets of moral edicts for the dealing of distinct species.

But even so, we can still follow our pro-social inclinations in dealing with such persons. Treat them as you would treat a person; and if they violate your autonomy (in what is an anti-social action), then you have cause to discourage or vilify this violation, and react accordingly.
[/collapse]

In summary:

-A pro-social, desire-driven consequential model of ethics is both the most rational and practical model for humans, and is the most apt one for the treatment of non-human animals;

-If the non-human animal is a person, then they are subject to morality. They must thus be treated accordingly. Unless it is with the person's consent, or in self-defense, then the killing of animals should not be pursued;

-If the non-human animal is not a person, then they are not subject to morality. It is therefore neither right nor wrong to treat them one way or another. However, we might as well treat them as pro-socially as we can, since it would be more beneficial to acquire the habit of consistency in how we apply our empathy, than to be inconsistent in its application.

So there you have it (as finally promised, @ Sucumbio Sucumbio ;)).
 

Sucumbio

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All you're trying to do is form my argument into different ones, say those are wrong, and therefore mine is wrong. The flaw here is they are not the same, and I can show why.

With not voting and drunk driving (especially the second one), there is the possibility that your action will change the situation. This would render the statement of "don't do X because your individual decision won't change the situation" false for these topics (mostly the second one, again). However, this possibility does not exist with buying meat, because the store is going to throw away the meat if you do not buy it.
Except when the meat sells out which happens all the time, at least at my local grocery store.

And stores only order enough to meet demand. It's a poor business decision to throw away too much because that comes at a cost to the grocer, its not as if meat suppliers reimburse walmart when walmart buys 100 times too much beef. This whole idea is absurd: continue to buy meat, or else I'm throwing it away. What? No... And I'm not saying excess isn't discarded, of course it is. That's impossible to avoid. But it's not SO much that choosing to be vegetarian will cause MORE waste. It just means less will be ordered to begin with.
 

erico9001

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Except when the meat sells out which happens all the time, at least at my local grocery store.

And stores only order enough to meet demand. It's a poor business decision to throw away too much because that comes at a cost to the grocer, its not as if meat suppliers reimburse walmart when walmart buys 100 times too much beef. This whole idea is absurd: continue to buy meat, or else I'm throwing it away. What? No... And I'm not saying excess isn't discarded, of course it is. That's impossible to avoid. But it's not SO much that choosing to be vegetarian will cause MORE waste. It just means less will be ordered to begin with.
It is a bad practice for the environment for stores to overstock, so it would be good if your stores do not do so. However, that's not the reality for most stores. The article I linked to gives lots of information on why the stores do this
http://www.businessinsider.com/why-grocery-stores-throw-out-so-much-food-2014-10
Grocery stores see customers as more likely to buy product if it is at full stock. Additionally, they want to make sure there is always stock of what the customer wants so that the customer does not go to a different store. Stores also throw away foods days before their sell-by dates to avoid being seen as stocking old food. Finally, the tossing of 'damaged' products also play a part.

Just to make sure: are you sure your store does not overstock/throw away meat? It might seem like they ran out of stock if they just threw it away.
 

Sucumbio

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Wow. First learn to vet your sources. They explored nyc grocers, the most major metropolitan in this half of the world. Here, the grocer has a butcher that prepares packages 3 times a day to meet demand and to reduce write offs.

Secondly, grocery store waste per that article accounts for only 10 percent of total waste in the us. Not exactly alarming.

Not even my original point. You used one poorly vetted article to somehow justify and suggest a position of total moral apathy concerning killing animals for food. If we're to seriously consider the notion that it's okay to do, the last reason you'd wanna give is: because of the way the retail industry works.
 

final lap

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It does not matter unless you go around buying up everything in a grocery store just so it doesn't go to waste. If you don't, then there is no need to treat animal products any differently from non-animal products.

If a store's customers stopped purchasing meat it's safe to say that the store will stop carrying it, because most stores don't like wasting money.

One also needs to look at it another way. Let's pretend that the store will carry meat no matter what and everything not sold will be thrown out and wasted. Even in such a case it is not necessarily justifiable to purchase the meat, since you're still purchasing it and therefore allowing them to monetize their idiotic business practice, while also funding the farms where it came from. To absolve yourself of moral responsibility, the store would have to give out the meat FOR FREE, but even then you could argue against accepting it, if doing so it would simply cause the store to purchase even more meat to give away.
 

Kenith

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Nice work, I read the whole thing. I agree completely.
I have one, possibly irrelevant question, though, about the classification of people.
Is there an "in-between" in definition, a group of animals that would be self-aware, but not meeting all the requirements to be classified as a person?
For instance, maybe some animals like cats and dogs would be like this, while most insects would not.

EDIT: Also, Can someone help me disable my signature here?
 
Last edited:

Sehnsucht

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Nice work, I read the whole thing. I agree completely.
I have one, possibly irrelevant question, though, about the classification of people.
Is there an "in-between" in definition, a group of animals that would be self-aware, but not meeting all the requirements to be classified as a person?
For instance, maybe some animals like cats and dogs would be like this, while most insects would not.
The state of personhood, sentience, sapience, consciousness, and so on are more likely to be continua than they are to be strict binaries. It's not that there's an "in-between", or a grey area; there's a spectrum of shades along which all things would be categorized

So it could be the case that a human is "more" self-aware than a chimpanzee, for instance. However, the base requirement of personhood is that an entity be capable of considering their actions, to simulate or extrapolate the consequences of their potential actions on themselves and others, be able to acknowledge that there exist persons aside from the self, and so on. If an entity satisfies these conditions, then we can classify them as a person.

As such, I don't think it makes sense to say that a human is "more" of a person than a chimp, if both satisfy the criteria of personhood. Though I agree that self-awareness doesn't necessarily entail agency; you could be aware of yourself relative to everything else, but not be capable of conceiving the impact of your actions on others, or be able to think of others as possessing equal personhood (though I don't think any living creature on Earth currently exhibits these traits, to my knowledge).

Would such entities be worthy of moral consideration, if they lack the capacity of moral reasoning, yet nonetheless are self-aware? Either way, it doesn't matter; the answer (as per my deliberations) would still to be to treat with them ethically, whether they constitute a person or not (ethically inasmuch as is possible, all factors considered).

If you're interested in topics of sentience, sapience, and the like, check out this post I made (and feel free to contribute to the thread if you have more to add).

EDIT: Also, Can someone help me disable my signature here?
A user's sig always shows up for their first post in a thread's page, then is hidden for all subsequent posts on the page.

Unless you're saying you want to mask your sig when posting in the Debate Hall section specifically. In which case I don't know how you'd go about that, or if it's at all possible.

Your sig has no objectionable quality to it, if you're thinking that it clashes with the srs bsns clime of the Debate Hall. Besides, this is a Smash-themed forum site, so it's not out of place or anything. 8P
 

AUS

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This has always been one of the hardest questions to answer, honestly I have never thought the killing and eating of animals is right, these are beings in which think and we are more or less killing them off for our personal meals when we do have many alternatives to it. We choose to eat animals not because we need to (Unless you are in a circumstance of survival) but because we want to, there are always option that will give us the same amount of protein that we need. However cutting out meat is hard for most, I personally, despite feeling bad for it ,eat meat almost everyday, that's because its a habit we have. We are alright with the more or less slaughter of cows and pigs but we recoil at the idea of a cat or dog being eaten only because these are household pets that we are used to thinking as domesticated animals with feelings, but what really separates the eating of a common household pet with a cow living on a farm...not much.
 
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