What's with the newfound backlash against customs?

[LancerStaff]

People just love jumping into bandwagons. Since the idea of banning customs started gaining popularity, suddenly customs became a bad and "broken" thing .

Are we talking about the same community who does its best to find advanced techs and stuff to further complicate the game?

And? Customs were a bandwagon for quite some time. Which is why they got into EVO.

That's different. Complexity =/= depth. Some techniques are just straight upgrades, like L-canceling or DACUSing. Others are additional options like perfect pivoting. You can say much the same about customs... Many are either straight upgrades or just better every time in X matchup and don't really create tangible depth within a match or CSS counterplay.

 

[Strider755]

Why can't these people who hate "broken" customs try to get those specific customs banned than the whole custom meta? That's a problem that can be solved with a scalpel rather than an ax.

 

[LancerStaff]

Why can't these people who hate "broken" customs try to get those specific customs banned than the whole custom meta? That's a problem that can be solved with a scalpel rather than an ax.

It's a slippery slope, and wether or not a move is "broken" is highly subjective. Plans such as limiting it to one custom or even blanket banning all Uspecials failed because of an all or nothing mentality, too, so clearly to many supporters of customs they'd rather take the axe.

And on top of "broken" there's "ban worthy," which is slightly different. For example, Custom Marth as an option vs. Roy as an option. In default play, Roy is defined as having a much better grab game then Marth at the cost of recovery, to put it simply. But with customs, Marth gets both a better grab game and better recovery, even in one set. Roy's other advantages don't make up for what custom Marth gets, and thus one whole character is made worthless just because Crescent Slash exists. Would the game be better with or without that move existing?

 

[Strider755]

It's a slippery slope, and wether or not a move is "broken" is highly subjective. Plans such as limiting it to one custom or even blanket banning all Uspecials failed because of an all or nothing mentality, too, so clearly to many supporters of customs they'd rather take the axe.

And on top of "broken" there's "ban worthy," which is slightly different. For example, Custom Marth as an option vs. Roy as an option. In default play, Roy is defined as having a much better grab game then Marth at the cost of recovery, to put it simply. But with customs, Marth gets both a better grab game and better recovery, even in one set. Roy's other advantages don't make up for what custom Marth gets, and thus one whole character is made worthless just because Crescent Slash exists. Would the game be better with or without that move existing?

Which is why I put "Broken" in quotes.

 

[LancerStaff]

Which is why I put "Broken" in quotes.

That I understand, but these players aren't interested in a game with these "broken" moves are allowed. So rather then turning them on and let their opinion potentially be drowned out by others who don't want the move banned they'd much rather keep customs off, if that wasn't their goal already.

 

[jmjb]

Why can't these people who hate "broken" customs try to get those specific customs banned than the whole custom meta? That's a problem that can be solved with a scalpel rather than an ax.

that's a horrible idea lol.
play with all the customs. the people complaining are doing so because they faced the custom move once and didn't know how it worked so they said ban customs. I think it's pretty funny since this is the hard-core research community, and these complainers feel overwhelmed lol.

the characters with the best customs, are characters that sucked to begin with. are you afraid the tier list will change? that's really that not big of a deal lol.

if the next big tournament was a customs tourney, the players who didn't want customs will refuse to study them, and only complain when they lose for not understanding the moves. and you can be sure they'll complain about it on smashboards, YouTube and anywhere else they think they'll be heard.

is this the same community that plays Pokemon ? knowing all the crazy stuff you might have to face and having a solution for it is what makes you a good player.
and adding custom moves is like doubling the character select screen. I think ppl are just afraid to learn more than a few match ups.

 

[Gimmick]

I'm sorry, but no. There's no point to adding customs. The vanilla game is already balanced. What's the point of adding customs if they don't do anything, but make the meta more confusing. Characters like Zelda, Palutena, and Ganondorf won't be jumping to a-tier with customs, and top-tiers such as Shiek and Villager also benefit (some times more than bottom tiers). I understand that customs help some characters, but not to the degree that they're actually relevant to the meta. That's also not taking into account that there are still a lot of characters with garbage customs (I know they're being balanced) that pretty much don't benefit at all. *stares intensely at Little Mac* There are also DLC characters that don't get customs at all. What's the point of playing Lucas if I can get all of his benefits in Ness through customs?

Plus how would you even organize customs? Make certain sets of customs like 1233, 3321, 2321, 2222, 3333, etc? That's silly. What if I wanted to use a custom set of 2233, or 3332, or 1313, or 3133? You see the problem? What's the point of giving players the options of customs if you're going to limit there options to a certain set? Especially considering the fact that some players may not like the moves they're are give. What if I'm playing Shulk and I have decisive monado arts in my set, but I wanted hyper monado arts? Do I just get ignored?

Do we only use the best custom moves? Hyper monado is consider to be one of Shulk's best customs, but I've seen a lot of people who prefer decisive monado. So it's obviously a case of opinions. Not only that, but let's say you have a terrible custom and you combine it with a good custom. This allows you to perform infinites, insane combos, and improve ab aspect of a character greatly. This means the custom move that was once considered garbage is now one of the characters best. Yet again, another reason why restricting sets don't work.

But what if we don't restrict sets? Then there's the problem of having to set everything up. You're going to have every player trying to organize what moves they'll want to use during a match. Do you know how time consuming that would be? That's not even taking into account that players usually use more than one character.

We also have to take match-ups into account. Now things just become a huge mess. I have to learn how to play Ryu vs. Marth with 3232, 2323, 1113, 3111, 2333, 3223, 3332, etc? I don't mind having to learn a games meta, but that's just stupid.

That's not even considering the fact that you actually have to unlock these moves. If I pick up a copy of Melee I can start practicing wave dashing right away. If I pick up 4 then I actually have to unlock these moves to get better at the game. And yes you could say the same for characters in some cases, but it's a lot easier to unlock them then it is to unlock customs (that's not even taking into account that unlocking customs is pretty much luck based).

 

[Dinoman96]

Characters like Zelda, Palutena, and Ganondorf won't be jumping to a-tier with customs,

One of these things is not like the others.

EDIT: Since when is Villager "top tier"? Top Tier basically means the absolute best in the game. Sheik, Rosalina, Zero Suit Samus, those characters are top tier. Villager, while really good, isn't exactly on their level. He's the definition of high tier.

 

[Gimmick]

One of these things is not like the others.

EDIT: Since when is Villager "top tier"? Top Tier basically means the absolute best in the game. Sheik, Rosalina, Zero Suit Samus, those characters are top tier. Villager, while really good, isn't exactly on their level. He's the definition of high tier.

I forgot that her moves were completely different. IMO, Villager is underrated. He can do same insane stuff. Not only that, but recently a Villager player in Japan has been wrecking shop. Heck, I think he even beat Nairo's ZSS a couple times.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I would argue that with customs, Villager might be top tier.

 

[LancerStaff]

Mario's either a top tier or really freakin' close and yet he has some of the best customs... I've heard people say he's better then Sheik with customs, even.

 

[Dinoman96]

Mario's either a top tier or really freakin' close and yet he has some of the best customs... I've heard people say he's better then Sheik with customs, even.

what

Sheik is by far the best character in the game. Mario's customs are useful but I don't see how he dethrones her with them.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

what

Sheik is by far the best character in the game. Mario's customs are useful but I don't see how he dethrones her with them.

I agree. She improves with customs, too, with Gravity Grenade and Piercing Needles. The only top tier that doesn't improve much with customs is ZSS. I could see Villager and possibly Mario replace her.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Characters like Zelda, Palutena, and Ganondorf won't be jumping to a-tier with customs

Ganondorf probably jumps a tier or two with customs lol. Wizard's Foot and Dark Fists are significantly better than the defaults, with Wizard's Foot improving his recovery and giving him an actual approach option, and Dark Fists improving his recovery and serving as a powerful out-of-shield option and KO move. Also, custom Palutena is ridiculously good.

 

[Strider755]

I'll be honest. I'm only for customs because I like being able to use Dragon Rush. If Dragon Rush were the vanilla move and Flare Blitz were the custom, i'd be just fine with not having customs.

 

[LancerStaff]

what

Sheik is by far the best character in the game. Mario's customs are useful but I don't see how he dethrones her with them.

I agree, but this isn't some gut reaction people spat out... This is serious thought from some of the smartest players. The fact that this is even considered should give you an idea of what people are seeing in Mario.

Really, you can't say bottom tiers get more then top tiers... Zelda, Mewtwo, Mac, and Puff exist.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Ganondorf probably jumps a tier or two with customs lol. Wizard's Foot and Dark Fists are significantly better than the defaults, with Wizard's Foot improving his recovery and giving him an actual approach option, and Dark Fists improving his recovery and serving as a powerful out-of-shield option and KO move. Also, custom Palutena is ridiculously good.

Don't you mean Wizard's Dropkick? Wizard's Foot doesn't help Ganondorf's recovery at all.

 

[jmjb]

Okay as

I'm sorry, but no. There's no point to adding customs. The vanilla game is already balanced. What's the point of adding customs if they don't do anything, but make the meta more confusing. Characters like Zelda, Palutena, and Ganondorf won't be jumping to a-tier with customs, and top-tiers such as Shiek and Villager also benefit (some times more than bottom tiers). I understand that customs help some characters, but not to the degree that they're actually relevant to the meta. That's also not taking into account that there are still a lot of characters with garbage customs (I know they're being balanced) that pretty much don't benefit at all. *stares intensely at Little Mac* There are also DLC characters that don't get customs at all. What's the point of playing Lucas if I can get all of his benefits in Ness through customs?

Plus how would you even organize customs? Make certain sets of customs like 1233, 3321, 2321, 2222, 3333, etc? That's silly. What if I wanted to use a custom set of 2233, or 3332, or 1313, or 3133? You see the problem? What's the point of giving players the options of customs if you're going to limit there options to a certain set? Especially considering the fact that some players may not like the moves they're are give. What if I'm playing Shulk and I have decisive monado arts in my set, but I wanted hyper monado arts? Do I just get ignored?

Do we only use the best custom moves? Hyper monado is consider to be one of Shulk's best customs, but I've seen a lot of people who prefer decisive monado. So it's obviously a case of opinions. Not only that, but let's say you have a terrible custom and you combine it with a good custom. This allows you to perform infinites, insane combos, and improve ab aspect of a character greatly. This means the custom move that was once considered garbage is now one of the characters best. Yet again, another reason why restricting sets don't work.

But what if we don't restrict sets? Then there's the problem of having to set everything up. You're going to have every player trying to organize what moves they'll want to use during a match. Do you know how time consuming that would be? That's not even taking into account that players usually use more than one character.

We also have to take match-ups into account. Now things just become a huge mess. I have to learn how to play Ryu vs. Marth with 3232, 2323, 1113, 3111, 2333, 3223, 3332, etc? I don't mind having to learn a games meta, but that's just stupid.

That's not even considering the fact that you actually have to unlock these moves. If I pick up a copy of Melee I can start practicing wave dashing right away. If I pick up 4 then I actually have to unlock these moves to get better at the game. And yes you could say the same for characters in some cases, but it's a lot easier to unlock them then it is to unlock customs (that's not even taking into account that unlocking customs is pretty much luck based).

Okay as for limiting which customs sets are already on a console, that's like the name tag roster being full and just accepting it and playing as someone else's name. if the name tag limit is reached just delete someone else's name and add yours, and if your custom set isn't already in the quick select slots, take the 30 seconds to go make it.
I think that settles that..

as for unlocking all the custom moves, yeah it is a lot to unlock, but so? I did mine through grinding and it was a pain, but I've learned about other automated options since. like using a turbo controller and just botting target blast while you sleep, or go out, or literally anything other than playing your wii u. unlike amiibo botting where you need to actually restart it every 99 minutes, you can literally let your wii farm 24/7.
so with that in mind, unlocking all the custom moves becomes WAY less intimidating.

lastly as for learning to play different variations of characters, most of these moves are similar to their original, so you have a general idea how they work. and learning a few moves multiplied by all the characters, would be just as many new moves to learn as if they added a few new characters to the game.

the tier list would change, yes. which means if you're putting all of your focus into a top tier character for the sake of it being top tier, then you're probably feeling like your investment isn't giving you the return you wanted. but a nerf will do the same thing..
the ones who feel like their character doesn't have too many threats to worry about , will be the ones to oppose any change, customs, patches, doubles or otherwise.

having to learn new stuff is intimidating, but once you force yourself to do it you're usually glad you did. people WILL learn if customs become a thing. and after they've learned it, then ask them if they want them or not. I bet many opposed will be for it when it's not just about learning more.

 

[Strider755]

If it's logistics, you could limit customs to 1 per player, and it has to be pre-registered.