What's with the newfound backlash against customs?

[Strider755]

I've noticing that more and more people are against allowing customs in competitive play, and I do not understand why. I always enjoyed the diversity of the movesets that customs brought (or i'm thinking too much like a pokemon player) and that some lower-tier characters got significantly more viable with customs (Zard, Palutena, to name a couple).

What is with the backlash? Is it because of Villager, Pika, and DK? If so, can't that problem be fixed with a scalpel rather than an ax?

 

[Lily♫]

Newfound?

But really, it's because it makes some characters much stronger then all the others, and because it takes so long to unlock all of them.

 

[Strider755]

So then what's stopping people from unlocking them? I unlocked all the customs one at a time.

 

[MOI-ARI]

People don't like fun change.

 

[CCTANK93]

I actually do like customs for tournaments as well. It opens up unique new strategies and you see characters you normally wouldn't otherwise. They should especially be ok now since we know that the balance team is willing to nerf or buff customs as of this latest patch. I guess some people don't want to worry about having to unlock the customs themselves to practice, which honestly doesn't take that long (a week in the 3DS version for me). Or maybe it's because it can make certain characters even more powerful over the rest of the cast, which is a pointless complaint since other characters can use customs just as efficiently. I don't know man but I'm hoping we can keep the customs for tournies.

 

[Lily♫]

So then what's stopping people from unlocking them? I unlocked all the customs one at a time.

Time really. The amount of time it takes to unlock every custom for every character, because you can get duplicates, is massive. I would be all for customs if they were easily attainable, but since they're not I don't play with them.
At a tourney, if they had them unlocked I would gladly play with them though.

 

[Raijinken]

A week active, two weeks casual, or however much longer completely passively is hardly an issue.

But alas, it isn't a new dislike.

There are plenty of people who like 'em, but unfortunately, we're basically too scattered to really make strong scenes for them. So unless Sakurai does something cool in the menus to make them easier to unlock and use, AND some big-name TO stops listening to whiners and decides to do something good for the game, we're probably not going to see them back in the big scheme of things. Which would suck.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

But really, it's because it makes some characters much stronger then all the others

Except it really doesn't, though. Top-tiers generally don't get that much more top-tier than they already are (unless their name is Rosalina), and lower-tier characters get some useful new tools to play with. Also, all the custom moves that people complain about being "jank"? They're all quite possible to work around and aren't in any way unstoppable. Kong Cyclone for instance? The windbox doesn't flinch and the damaging hitbox takes a fair while to come out, so he's really just giving you a nice opening to hit him. Most NAirs will serve the purpose quite nicely.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It is a pain to unlock them, so that is a logistics issue for some people that don't want to bother with.

Some of them aren't balanced with many pseudo infinites with some of them and "cheesy" kills at 50%. Some great degenerate gameplay, villager with customs, though still beatable.

It messes with the game a lot in ways TOs and top players aren't fond of. Which is why many people turn them off.

Adding reason to this, not really advocating one side of the other with this post.

 

[LancerStaff]

For most, they're just not as fun. There's legitimately a lot more cheese to deal with, and for many characters it's seen to be not worth it for said character.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

It is a pain to unlock them, so that is a logistics issue for some people that don't want to bother with.

Some of them aren't balanced with many pseudo infinites with some of them and "cheesy" kills at 50%. Some great degenerate gameplay, villager with customs, though still beatable.

It messes with the game a lot in ways TOs and top players aren't fond of. Which is why many people turn them off.

Adding reason to this, not really advocating one side of the other with this post.

Are there still any actual pseudo-infinites? I thought every last one of them had been patched out by this point. Pikachu's Thunder Wave can no longer infinite, at least, and that's the main one I know of. Can you "infinite" someone with Villager's Timber Counter sapling?

Also, I keep seeing that term "degenerate gameplay" thrown around. What do people even mean by that? Camping is a legitimate strategy in most fighting games. Facing an opponent with a near-unstoppable offence? Get one solid hit in and stop pressing buttons, just guard and dodge. And you know what? Fighting game fans eat that stuff up. Playing full defence when your opponent is already up in your face actually creates hype. Most fighting game communities won't actively boo someone for camping. They'll cheer for the other side, sure, and sometimes the commentators will point out how monotonous doing the same move over and over again has to be, but other than that they won't boo or cuss you out. Going for the time out is a perfectly acceptable way to pull out a clutch victory. So why is it that the Smash community calls any playstyle that lacks any major degree of offence "degenerate"?

Is it legitimately easier for Villager to spam exploding balloons forever than it is to stop him from doing so, or have people just decided they don't want to have to learn?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I think the main problem with the customs has to do with the fact that it's very time-consuming to unlock all 376 custom specials; only Palutena and the Miis are given their custom specials right off the bat.

Another problem is that none of the DLC characters have any custom specials at all, which means that they can't modify their special moves in a customs ON bout.

Lastly, some custom specials may be considered too powerful, despite being able to help counter some of the fighter's flaws. For an example, Rosalina normally has the advantage against the Wii Fit Trainer, but if the Wii Fit Trainer is using the Jumbo Hoop custom special, that can pose problems for Rosalina and her Luma.

Similarly, while Ganondorf typically has one of the worst recoveries under default conditions, the combination of Wizard's Dropkick and Dark Fists greatly improves his recovery.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I think the main problem with the customs has to do with the fact that it's very time-consuming to unlock all 376 custom specials; only Palutena and the Miis are given their custom specials right off the bat.

Another problem is that none of the DLC characters have any custom specials at all, which means that they can't modify their special moves in a customs ON bout.

Lastly, some custom specials may be considered too powerful, despite being able to help counter some of the fighter's flaws. For an example, Rosalina normally has the advantage against the Wii Fit Trainer, but if the Wii Fit Trainer is using the Jumbo Hoop custom special, that can pose problems for Rosalina and her Luma.

Similarly, while Ganondorf typically has one of the worst recoveries under default conditions, the combination of Wizard's Dropkick and Dark Fists greatly improves his recovery.

The first two points make sense as a negative side to custom moves, but how is the last one bad? I would think custom moves that fix a character's flaws should be generally welcome... Is it just because you're a Rosalina main?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The first two points make sense as a negative side to custom moves, but how is the last one bad? I would think custom moves that fix a character's flaws should be generally welcome... Is it just because you're a Rosalina main?

What I'm saying is that without customs, some fighters actually perform worse than if customs were allowed.

Ganondorf pretty much needs Wizard's Dropkick and Dark Fists, since Wizard's Dropkick offers Ganondorf better horizontal travel distance in the air, while Dark Fists gives Ganondorf super armor upon executing, AND is quite powerful whenever it hits opponents.

However, even though Wizard's Dropkick and Dark Fists greatly improve Ganondorf's recovery, some people find this to be very distasteful, as Ganondorf's recovery is normally supposed to be very bad, and those two special moves change everything on how to counter Ganondorf's recovery.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

What I'm saying is that without customs, some fighters actually perform worse than if customs were allowed.

Ganondorf pretty much needs Wizard's Dropkick and Dark Fists, since Wizard's Dropkick offers Ganondorf better horizontal travel distance in the air, while Dark Fists gives Ganondorf super armor upon executing, AND is quite powerful whenever it hits opponents.

However, even though Wizard's Dropkick and Dark Fists greatly improve Ganondorf's recovery, some people find this to be very distasteful, as Ganondorf's recovery is normally supposed to be very bad, and those two special moves change everything on how to counter Ganondorf's recovery.

That's kinda the whole point though, is that low-tier characters generally benefit more from customs than top-tiers do.

Those two moves not only do amazing things for Ganondorf's recovery but also for his approach and OoS options.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

That's kinda the whole point though, is that low-tier characters generally benefit more from customs than top-tiers do.

Those two moves not only do amazing things for Ganondorf's recovery but also for his approach and OoS options.

That's the thing. There are people out there who are sour about custom specials for the fact that some of them are too powerful, and yet those very moves can also be very beneficial to some of the lower-ranked fighters in the game.

Without Wizard's Dropkick and Dark Fists, Ganondorf's recovery is just very awful as a whole.

Similarly, Charizard's horizontal recovery is improved with Dragon Rush, as it can't be stopped prematurely, and it doesn't hurt Charizard either.

On the other hand, some of the high-ranking fighters do get some good benefits out of their custom specials as well. In Rosalina's case, Shooting Star Bit makes it easier for her to put pressure on slower fighters who lack reflectors (such as Ganondorf and Robin), while Guardian Luma helps her deal with fighters who lack projectile attacks better (such as Meta Knight and Captain Falcon).

 

[CrazyPerson]

Uneducated speculation from someone who keeps trying to find time to go lose a tournament but never finds it when one is scheduled.

For the record: I think that having some tournaments with, and some without, would be the best option for the game. People with a strong preference one way can avoid the other, and those who like both can play both.


As people have said the unlock system... the only unlock stuff system that I have hated more than this game was advance wars 1... it takes forever, involves game modes that get stale and boring quickly.

That plays a lot into it...

I suspect there is some habit involved with a lot of tournament rule sets. Stuff like "It was this way in previous games so let's do it that way now."

Had the game cube controller then so let's use it now and ban others. (llegitimate issues with wireless controllers... but don't other games find ways to use them?)

Didn't have walk offs before so let's ban them. (Though legitimate balance issues can be cited here... but I'd say characters with no recovery should have some counter picks that favor them the way the floating stages hurt them)


Had this many legal stages before so let's not go higher than that now. (A formerly legal level must be replaced when a better one is patched in... instead of added giving more options.)

Had no customs before so let's not use them now.

I think another issue is set up time. There are only 10 slots for a ton more combinations. (I am not doing that math.) I know some events set 10 that players could choose from... but it can be argued that standardizing them like that defeats the point of customs... but not doing so mean's someone who uses an unorthodox set needs to take the team to leave the smash menue, go to customs, set it up, then play... then may need to do it again if they switch charecters... then if someone wants the set up that is deleted later they need to go back for it.

As I read tournament rule sets, part me me thinks that habbit from former games is setting a lot... which doesn't allow each game to bring it's uniqueness to the field of play.

That's the thing. There are people out there who are sour about custom specials for the fact that some of them are too powerful, and yet those very moves can also be very beneficial to some of the lower-ranked fighters in the game.

Without Wizard's Dropkick and Dark Fists, Ganondorf's recovery is just very awful as a whole.

Similarly, Charizard's horizontal recovery is improved with Dragon Rush, as it can't be stopped prematurely, and it doesn't hurt Charizard either.

On the other hand, some of the high-ranking fighters do get some good benefits out of their custom specials as well. In Rosalina's case, Shooting Star Bit makes it easier for her to put pressure on slower fighters who lack reflectors (such as Ganondorf and Robin), while Guardian Luma helps her deal with fighters who lack projectile attacks better (such as Meta Knight and Captain Falcon).

There is a case for that...

But the thinking is a bit of a double edged sword. If they are applying it it customs why not apply it to characters who are really powerful without them?

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

That's the thing. There are people out there who are sour about custom specials for the fact that some of them are too powerful, and yet those very moves can also be very beneficial to some of the lower-ranked fighters in the game.

Without Wizard's Dropkick and Dark Fists, Ganondorf's recovery is just very awful as a whole.

Similarly, Charizard's horizontal recovery is improved with Dragon Rush, as it can't be stopped prematurely, and it doesn't hurt Charizard either.

On the other hand, some of the high-ranking fighters do get some good benefits out of their custom specials as well. In Rosalina's case, Shooting Star Bit makes it easier for her to put pressure on slower fighters who lack reflectors (such as Ganondorf and Robin), while Guardian Luma helps her deal with fighters who lack projectile attacks better (such as Meta Knight and Captain Falcon).

Charizard's Rising Cyclone seems to be a really good move too. It does bad things to his vertical recovery, but it doesn't really hurt that much since Fly's vertical is already kinda awful. In exchange, it's a really powerful kill move, especially in the air. Dragon Rush > turnaround Rising Cyclone is good, at least according to StylesX2's "Custom Lizards" videos. (That said, he once did the same combo with aerial Flare Blitz into Fly, deliberately whiffing Flare Blitz so that the hit animation still triggered and the explosion sent the foe behind Charizard as Charizard tumbled back to meet them.)

On the subject of Rosalina, Luma Warp is also nuts.

Edit: Also also KOs in the 40-80% range happen pretty often in Smash 4 because meteor smashes and pillar combos are how the game works, at least in high-level play.

 

[Raijinken]

The fact that MLG allowed moves that some perceive as Customs may have contributed to the renewed crusade against fun.

That's the thing. There are people out there who are sour about custom specials for the fact that some of them are too powerful, and yet those very moves can also be very beneficial to some of the lower-ranked fighters in the game.

Without Wizard's Dropkick and Dark Fists, Ganondorf's recovery is just very awful as a whole.

Similarly, Charizard's horizontal recovery is improved with Dragon Rush, as it can't be stopped prematurely, and it doesn't hurt Charizard either.

On the other hand, some of the high-ranking fighters do get some good benefits out of their custom specials as well. In Rosalina's case, Shooting Star Bit makes it easier for her to put pressure on slower fighters who lack reflectors (such as Ganondorf and Robin), while Guardian Luma helps her deal with fighters who lack projectile attacks better (such as Meta Knight and Captain Falcon).

I would like to correct that, by standard opinion, without Wizard's Dropkick and Dark Fists, Ganondorf (noun, not adjective) is just very awful as a whole. As has been his entire archetype for the history of Smash, because the entire design point of the mighty glacier archetype fails in games like Smash where mobility and survival is so central to a character's ability to perform well (happens in other games, too, of course).

You could take Needle Storm and give it to Ganondorf and I doubt he'd jump past mid tier. But where the difference in view and perception comes into play, between players who actually have views besides "This isn't fun to me," is that some (such as myself) are more than willing to give a bad character a good move and let them average out to okay, and even give a good character a good move in exchange, than have a bad character be permanently bad by design. Others are willing to accept the arbitrarily default way that the cookie crumbles, so to speak.

I think another issue is set up time. There are only 10 slots for a ton more combinations. (I am not doing that math.) I know some events set 10 that players could choose from... but it can be argued that standardizing them like that defeats the point of customs... but not doing so mean's someone who uses an unorthodox set needs to take the team to leave the smash menue, go to customs, set it up, then play... then may need to do it again if they switch charecters... then if someone wants the set up that is deleted later they need to go back for it.

There are several solutions to that issue.

For small tournaments, setup time shouldn't be an issue. There are two approaches to this. On one hand, the most pro-customs of scenarios is that everyone uses a unique moveset (there are 81 combinations per non-DLC character, though by virtually all opinions not all of these are even "worth consideration"), and in a worst-case logistics consideration (proper from a planning stance but unrealistic), you end up with a massive time sink. However, in this case, the time sink is even across contestants, few, if any, players should feel reasonably slighted, as they themselves were given their share of setup time.

On the other hand, there's the approach that customs "aren't widespread and thus create inconvenience." In my absolutely biased viewpoint, this defeats itself. If customs create an issue, but people don't use customs, the issue cannot manifest at a larger scale, and thus provides no cause for banning. In a related train of thought, is me taking half a minute to make a set (provided the ruleset allows thus instead of forcing the Moveset Project sets, addressed below) any worse than my opponent pondering between Sheik or Diddy for the same amount of time? Until I see a tournament get held up, and that hold up be solely and completely attributable to the implementation of custom moves, it's impossible for me (as a logistics expert) to use that as a justification against customs.

Lastly, the idea of the moveset project limiting "secret techniques" or however you want to term the idea of a pocket strat built around customs not in the top ten voted sets. It's an unfortunate side effect of tournament scale, but ultimately, "if you don't vote, you can't complain." But you can, if your life circumstance permits, just go to a tournament that will allow you to show your pocket strat and maybe win with it.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I know that certain custom specials are not worth using at all, but I can at least name a couple that are pretty usable...

• Fast Fireball: Easier to spam, despite dealing less damage and knockback.
• Gust Cape: Same pros as the Cape, but with the addition of having windboxes.
• Boomerang: Can be used for offense better, as it won't pull opponents toward Link.
• Whirling Leap: Although it doesn't have a hitbox, it really helps Link's recovery in that it offers better air speed.
• Upper Cutter: Although the move leaves Kirby helpless, it won't mess up his horizontal recovery.
• Heavy Skull Bash: Travels faster, which does improve Pikachu's horizontal recovery.
• Quick Feet: For those who have a hard time handling Quick Attack.
• Lasting PK Thunder: Opponents can't stop this move by coming into contact to it, making it more effective for Ness's recovery.
• Fast Capsule: Easier to spam, despite dealing less damage and knockback.
• Breezy Sheet: Same pros as the Super Sheet, but with the addition of having windboxes.
• Dark Fists: Gives Ganondorf super armor before execution, and is actually quite effective for offense.
• Wizard's Dropkick: Offers better horizontal distance when used in the air, which helps Ganondorf's recovery.
• Blade Coaster: Covers more distance for Meta Knight with its more horizontal movement.
• Shield Piercer: Harder to punish with its unblockable properties.
• Rose Waft: Takes less time to charge up, and can leave damaging flowers on opponents, which makes up for its reduced knockback.
• Unyielding Blade: Slower, but gives Ike super armor, and it deals more damage as well.
• Aether Drive: Gives Ike some horizontal movement, which does help his horizontal recovery a bit.
• Dragon Rush: Although it deals less damage than Flare Blitz, it's harder to punish with its ability to deliver multiple hits, and doesn't get stopped prematurely if Charizard hits anyone, making it much more useful for horizontal recoveries. And of course, it doesn't hurt Charizard at all.
• Fly High: Although it doesn't deal any damage, the increased vertical recovery does help if Charizard is below a ledge.
• Taste Test: King Dedede will spit out his opponent immediately, making it impossible for the opponent to break free.
• Hardy Pikmin Pluck: Although they take longer to pull out, the Pikmin are more resilient to damage.
• Winged Pikmin Jump: Sends Olimar upwards quickly, regardless of his Pikmin supply.
• Mighty Winged Pikmin: Olimar will travel a set distance, regardless of his Pikmin supply.
• Rising Slash: Gives Toon Link some more vertical height upon finishing.
• Burning Spin Dash: Deals more damage, despite not jumping as high as the default Spin Dash.
• Auto-Spin Charge: You only have to hold the special move button to charge the attack, making it more convenient to use than the standard Spin Charge.
• Luma Warp: The Luma warps instantly at a set distance, making it easier for Rosalina to set up attacks with it. It also can't be reflected.
• Shooting Star Bit: Fires long-ranged Star Bits that travel fast, making the move quite useful against slower opponents who lack reflectors. Additionally, the speed of the Star Bits makes the move quite easy to spam.
• Guardian Luma: The Luma can sponge hits, and damage anyone that touches it. Useful against fighters who lack projectile attacks.
• Angelic Missile: Improves Palutena's horizontal recovery.
• Back Slash Leap: Better vertical reach, and has less startup lag.
• Koopa Drift: Although less powerful than the default Clown Kart Dash, its ability to deliver multiple hits makes it harder to punish.
• Impatient Mechakoopa: More useful as a projectile attack, and the Mecha-Koopa can't really be used against Bowser Jr., as it'll automatically self-destruct upon touching ground.
• High-Explosive Shot: Travels further, and the player has better control over when the can will explode as well.

Some of these might be debatable though.

 

[Raijinken]

While some of these I agree are largely upgrades, at least to the point I'd take them almost all the time, they have their downsides as well:

• Fast Fireball: No downward coverage, inflicts no hitstun at long range
• Gust Cape: Slower than the Cape for both recovery stalling and reflecting, consequently harder to time but more rewarding.
• Boomerang: Better as a straight projectile, loses out on windbox shenanigans.
• Whirling Leap: No hitbox, unsafe but long-range recovery that could help his offstage more than his actual recovery.
• Upper Cutter: Loss of an already situational projectile.
• Heavy Skull Bash: Damage falls off significantly over distance. Not that this is in any way worse than the terrible default.
• Quick Feet: Sacrifices flexibility (and, to my limited Pikachu knowledge, ledge cancel functionality) for simplicity.
• Lasting PK Thunder: Less damage from PK Thunder and 2, not effective as an attack itself.
• Fast Capsule: See Fast Fireball.
• Breezy Sheet: See Gust Cape, but on an already slower character.
• Dark Fists: Is better for all non-stage-spike purposes than its garbage original.
• Wizard's Dropkick: Loss of the meteor hitbox and high shield damage from Wizard's Foot.
• Blade Coaster: Sacrifices his most reliable kill move against many characters.
• Shield Piercer: Weaker on hit, less flexible as a recovery.
• Rose Waft: Roughly even trade-off, better recovery, comparable or better total damage, loss of a kill move.
• Unyielding Blade: Significantly slower, easier to punish or intercept.
• Aether Drive: Almost entirely preference/playstyle based swap from default. Lose some dthrow combo options.
• Dragon Rush: Less likely to destroy someone who actually gets hit, but still an excellent move.
• Fly High: No damage on one of Charizard's better punish kill moves.
• Taste Test: Significantly reduced chance of under-stage shenanigans or Dededecide.
• Hardy Pikmin Pluck: Can't as quickly pluck to make up for lost Pikmin
• Winged Pikmin Jump: No recovery flexibility, and still no hitbox.
• Mighty Winged Pikmin: Situational sidegrade.
• Rising Slash: Weaker recovery in exchange for a kill read.
• Burning Spin Dash: Deals more damage at the expense of a great portion of Sonic's camp game.
• Auto-Spin Charge: Laziest special in the game, but I don't Sonic enough to know if there's a pro or con to either version.
• Luma Warp: Major blind spot at mid range, and Luma steps back part way after the warp.
• Shooting Star Bit: Falco's Laser that gets locked at a certain firing height. Better than default.
• Guardian Luma: Never seen this move actually used regardless of the opponent.
• Angelic Missile: Trade off Superspeed (or the situational Reflect) for an unneeded interceptable sidegrade to her recovery.
• Back Slash Leap: Less horizontal range. Possibly more reliable as a punish, but less flexible.
• Koopa Drift: Harder to combo off the impact due to the jump's reduced height. Probably a functional sidegrade, haven't used it much.
• Impatient Mechakoopa: More traditional projectile at the cost of unique stage control. Likely better against Rosalina, sidegrade otherwise.
• High-Explosive Shot: Stronger at the cost of any sort of stage control functionality. Potentially decent, but I can't see it being better than the other two.

 

[Strider755]

The main reason I like using customs is Dragon Rush. If Dragon Rush were the standard and Flare Blitz were the custom, i'd be fine with no customs. I don't use any other customs regularly.

That said, customs are much easier to unlock on the 3DS. If it's a logistics issue, why not simply provide an incentive for 3DS players to come and make and transfer sets?

 

[Raijinken]

The main reason I like using customs is Dragon Rush. If Dragon Rush were the standard and Flare Blitz were the custom, i'd be fine with no customs. I don't use any other customs regularly.

That said, customs are much easier to unlock on the 3DS. If it's a logistics issue, why not simply provide an incentive for 3DS players to come and make and transfer sets?

Something like that contributing to a venue fee discount would be super awesome.

Not like it'd matter to me since there's all of one custom tournament in my entire state, four hours away, but that's a cool idea anyway.

 

[Tino]

I guess they never heard of the term "things change"

 

[Saikyoshi]

Why the backlash? Simple. ZeR0 doesn't like them, so his worshippers blindly follow suit.

I stand by what I say; if he advocated banning Battlefield, people would suddenly start coming up with tons of plausible-sounding arguments supporting that out of nowhere.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

I don't understand why tournaments don't do something along the lines of what AmazingAmpharos did and have preset custom sets on all the consoles used in the tournament. Hell, this only really needs to be done once, anyways; as long as those consoles stay in rotation, all the custom sets would remain on each system unless somebody wanted to remove them.

Setup wouldn't be an issue if you set the customs up on the consoles at the beginning of the month the tournament took place in, or late the month before for early-bird tournaments. Pre-setting the sets a while before the tournament begins effectively negates the supposed time issue.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Why the backlash? Simple. ZeR0 doesn't like them, so his worshippers blindly follow suit.

I stand by what I say; if he advocated banning Battlefield, people would suddenly start coming up with tons of plausible-sounding arguments supporting that out of nowhere.

You mean like this?

 

[Kero the Invincible]

I think a good part of it is wanting to simplify the meta-game rather than complicate it.

Basically, it's easier to turn off customs and just form a meta-game based around the default move-sets, than have to worry about developing counters to Explodey Balloons or a Ganon that can actually recover.

It's the nature of a meta-game to form counters to popular strategies, and even "broken" moves can have their flaws figured out over time (or indeed, taken down a notch through patching). But, if you're a tournament player who's in it to win it, you probably want to minimize the number of things you have to memorize/plan against, rather than increase them, thus the support for a "vanilla" game amongst some high-level players.

Personally, I'm all for customs, and I really liked the look of the latest patch changes. Things like, toning down aforementioned Explodey Balloons' hitbox, while buffing lesser-used things like Ice Slasher. I just think it'd be kinda sad if they put work into balancing the customs only to have them ignored.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

As for the whole "jank" excuse, it really is just an excuse. "Jank" is almost synonymous with "unfair", and there is absolutely no custom that can be considered unfair. Not even incredibly good customs like Wizard's Dropkick, Dragon Rush, Kong Cyclone or Heavy Skull Bash are unfair; Dropkick is good, but Ganon still has his worst issues to deal with. Rush is really good, but it's not as potent of a kill move, Kong Cyclone is only good when DK's using it on the ground and Heavy Bash is powerful, but Pikachu has other, more viable kill setups than it at most percents.

The idea about customs wasting time at tournaments is problematic; once the tournament starts, nobody's going to spend much time tinkering with settings or custom sets; they'll just quickly pick their preferred moveset and go. It adds maybe a couple of seconds to the timer, at worst.

Besides, if it's a matter of inconvinience, the optimal strategy would just be to use AmazingAmpharos' strategy; having predetermined sets on the system beforehand that all the participants can use. You only need to do that once, anyways.

 

[Gimmick]

Why do we even need customs when the main roster is already balanced? That's not even considering the fact that most top tiers benefit from customs as well. Not only that, but customs obviously weren't made with balance in mind, and lead to cancerous, or jank game play (some times both). Plus customs is a chore. Why not just wait until the game is finishing be balanced and then try to implement customs?

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Why do we even need customs when the main roster is already balanced? That's not even considering the fact that most top tiers benefit from customs as well. Not only that, but customs obviously weren't made with balance in mind, and lead to cancerous, or jank game play (some times both). Plus customs is a chore. Why not just wait until the game is finishing be balanced and then try to implement customs?

Nice buzzwords there, mate. "cancerous", "jank". Why don't you provide actual evidence instead of just throwing around buzzwords? I hate "cancerous" in particular.

And in what way are customs "obviously [not] made with balance in mind"? Keeping in mind that the balance team has gone out of their way to buff underutilized custom moves in the latest patch and then enabled them for online tourneys, and have also nerfed some of the previous worst offenders, I don't think we can simply pretend that they aren't being balanced around.

 

[Gimmick]

Nice buzzwords there, mate. "cancerous", "jank". Why don't you provide actual evidence instead of just throwing around buzzwords? I hate "cancerous" in particular.

And in what way are customs "obviously [not] made with balance in mind"? Keeping in mind that the balance team has gone out of their way to buff underutilized custom moves in the latest patch and then enabled them for online tourneys, and have also nerfed some of the previous worst offenders, I don't think we can simply pretend that they aren't being balanced around.

You don't think that Pickachu infinite, Shulk killing at 20 percent, Villager going camping, and DK cyclone are cancerous? Even if some of this stuff was altered it still doesn't make for healthy play. The fact that customs weren't allowed in tournaments in the first place should tell you how unbalanced the were. Not only that, but this will most likely make new players not want to get into the competitive scene, seeing how they'll have to unlock all the customs and then learn how a majority of them work. People say that high level players just don't want an evolving meta, but never think about new players.

 

[Dinoman96]

You don't think that Pickachu infinite, Shulk killing at 20 percent, Villager going camping, and DK cyclone are cancerous? .

...even though that was patched out?

You claim that customs weren't made with balance in mind, yet you ignore the fact that Sakurai and his team dedicated the last patch to balancing customs. That atleast shows that Sakurai is kinda taking them seriously now.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

You don't think that Pickachu infinite, Shulk killing at 20 percent, Villager going camping, and DK cyclone are cancerous? Even if some of this stuff was altered it still doesn't make for healthy play. The fact that customs weren't allowed in tournaments in the first place should tell you how unbalanced the were. Not only that, but this will most likely make new players not want to get into the competitive scene, seeing how they'll have to unlock all the customs and then learn how a majority of them work. People say that high level players just don't want an evolving meta, but never think about new players.

Pikachu infinite was patched out a while ago. Villager goes camping anyway, and Exploding Balloon Trip, which enabled his ridiculous (but still conquerable) planking, has been nerfed hard. Shulk killing at 20% with Hyper Smash Power Vision isn't really something to worry about because the chances of him landing that are ridiculously low. If he does somehow land it via a mistake on his opponent's part or an excellent play on his part (or, most likely, both), he definitely deserves that kill. Kong Cyclone is easy to get past once you realize that the hitbox comes out super late and the windbox doesn't flinch at all. Oh, sure, it's great for punishing a whiffed move from 1/4 of the way across FD, but spamming it won't get DK anywhere against a competent player.

Also, re: "the fact that customs weren't allowed in tournaments in the first place should tell you how unbalanced they were", appealing to tradition does not a logical argument make. Not only that, but notice that even you were forced to use the past tense there: "how unbalanced they were".

Edit: More importantly, I don't think that's what "cancerous" means in any context.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

You don't think that Pickachu infinite, Shulk killing at 20 percent, Villager going camping, and DK cyclone are cancerous? Even if some of this stuff was altered it still doesn't make for healthy play. The fact that customs weren't allowed in tournaments in the first place should tell you how unbalanced the were. Not only that, but this will most likely make new players not want to get into the competitive scene, seeing how they'll have to unlock all the customs and then learn how a majority of them work. People say that high level players just don't want an evolving meta, but never think about new players.

You can't say they're cancerous and then ignore all of the other custom moves that don't have that sort of thing. And if Kong Cyclone is "cancerous", then so is Dragon Rush, Wizard's Foot, Dash Slash and any other move that's an upgrade to the default.

And new players should be looking up tips and guides for the game anyways; it's like Competetive Newcomer 101 at this point to look for guides as a new player to a fighter. This is a non-issue for them to learn how customs work. People didn't even want customs off because they were unbalanced, it was because they weren't ready to adapt to a new meta.

You can't just hinge the entire argument on one reason, either. Saying that "this is how it's always been, it should stay this way" is a terrible argument and it always has been in most situations.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

You can't say they're cancerous and then ignore all of the other custom moves that don't have that sort of thing. And if Kong Cyclone is "cancerous", then so is Dragon Rush, Wizard's Foot, Dash Slash and any other move that's an upgrade to the default.

And new players should be looking up tips and guides for the game anyways; it's like Competetive Newcomer 101 at this point to look for guides as a new player to a fighter. This is a non-issue for them to learn how customs work. People didn't even want customs off because they were unbalanced, it was because they weren't ready to adapt to a new meta.

You can't just hinge the entire argument on one reason, either. Saying that "this is how it's always been, it should stay this way" is a terrible argument and it always has been in most situations.

It's too bad that the game tips only tell you about the default special moves; no tips are given about the customs in any way.

 

[Dinoman96]

It's too bad that the game tips only tell you about the default special moves; no tips are given about the customs in any way.

The custom moves for Palutena and the Mii Fighters are mentioned, to be fair.

 

[Reila]

People just love jumping into bandwagons. Since the idea of banning customs started gaining popularity, suddenly customs became a bad and "broken" thing .

I think a good part of it is wanting to simplify the meta-game rather than complicate it.

Are we talking about the same community who does its best to find advanced techs and stuff to further complicate the game?

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

It's too bad that the game tips only tell you about the default special moves; no tips are given about the customs in any way.

Following what Dinoman96 said, Mega Man's custom special moves are also mentioned by the in-game tips.

 

[Dinoman96]

Following what Dinoman96 said, Mega Man's custom special moves are also mentioned by the in-game tips.

Though, those aren't exactly the same thing. MM's customs don't appear among his fighter tips like Palutena's and the Mii Fighters. They're under Original Games/Settings, exclusive to the Wii U version. They're mainly mentioned because unlike the majority of custom moves, Mega Man's are actually direct references to some of his abilities in his series. The tips are more about what they reference and what the move in question comes from, not actual gameplay tips like Palu/Miis.