What would you change to make Ganon high tier or better in general?

[Swoops]

I would actually be okay with a techable choke if they made follow ups consistent across all of the cast. Like maybe make DTilt a frame or two quicker to connect vs the whole cast on a missed tech.

In general, a few frames here and there on his moveset would mean a lot.

 

[Thor]

If I were put in charge of Ganondorf and had read nothing here, I'd have made jab frame 4 and nair have 12 frames of landing lag, while making fullhop fair autocancel properly.

That said, there's a lot of good ideas in here I hadn't considered, but that's what I originally thought Ganondorf should get to become a lot better.

 

[captain bobo]

I think flame choke buffs are all ganon needs to become really scary and even very competitive, but also still balanced with all his big weaknesses.
You could make it faster, untechable, or even give it super armor. All 3 would definitely be way too broken lol. He'll still have a terrible recovery, slow cqc and oos options, and a hard time with approaching and dealing with campy play. With customs on he might be top tier with those buffs though...

 

[Top Boss]

I have a few things I'd like to do with ganondorf:
Speed up his jab and remove the super weak sourspot.
Fix his back air hitbox so it can hit lower.
Give him more grab range.
Make down throw combo better, give him a kill throw, and make his up throw useful.
And a general speed buff, so he can move around quicker

 

[Swoops]

Again, just 1-2 frames in the right places would help tremendously.

But a couple fun ideas I had:

- make jab similar to Roy's. A lifting palm strike. Would be 4/5 start up with decent FAF, would cover slightly better distance than grab, and it's hitbox would start in front and arc diagonally and above him.

- Side B does not put him in free fall. I see no reason why this couldn't be done, as long as he still has a bit of lag to it. would improve his recovery a good deal

 

[jmanup85]

Again, just 1-2 frames in the right places would help tremendously.

But a couple fun ideas I had:

- make jab similar to Roy's. A lifting palm strike. Would be 4/5 start up with decent FAF, would cover slightly better distance than grab, and it's hitbox would start in front and arc diagonally and above him.

- Side B does not put him in free fall. I see no reason why this couldn't be done, as long as he still has a bit of lag to it. would improve his recovery a good deal

I like the side b idea with no free fall. Fox and Falco got it and it works for them. Falcon, Ganon and Zelda should have side b moves that don't put them in free fall.

 

[verbatim]

frame 3 nair.

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

As a lot of people said, adjusting some startup frames is amazingly good. I have some ideas:

Flame choke has super armor in the air.
Flame choke can now be cancelled in the air to gain momentum (like Ryu's Down B).
Of course, he doesn't go free fall if he does the Flame Choke in the air.
His second jump is higher (pls).
Up B has super armor at the middle to the end of the animation.

 

[Rialdospaldacht]

Crazy mode: Flame Choke gets super armor again, like all grabs had in Brawl. Like, on the grab. Pretty sure it still has it once the animation starts up.

 

[TehMud]

For me, it's Ganon's recovery that's the biggest problem. I think even just granting him his double jump back after a Down-B would help greatly. It's just too easy to gimp a Ganon.

 

[Blobface]

I'm with Verm on this one, Flame Choke should not be techable, especially since tech rolls aren't consistent across the cast while regular getups are (or at least moreso).

And I think I understand the reasoning behind Flame Choke being techable. Ganondorf already racks % faster than anyone else in the game, and I'm guessing that Sakurai figured that him also having a guaranteed kill option off a grab would be a little much. But quite frankly, I'm pretty sure every Ganon would be willing to give up guaranteed followups for untechable choke.

Untechable Choke without guaranteed followups would fit Ganon's design better overall anyway, taking risks and making reads rather than guaranteed combos.

Side note: If anyone wants a seemingly innocuous change that would break Ganon completely, make U-air's hitbox start and end 2 frames earlier/later.

 

[verbatim]

I think the design philosophy behind making Flame Choke techable is that it introduces another layer of depth to Ganon's gameplay, and creates a situation where players are forced to out predict each other.


IDK, if my goal was to make him high tier, I'd make aerial dair untechable (it actually already has a flag making hits on grounded opponetn's untechable), make d-throw like mario's (if they don't air dodge you get a uair followup, if they do you get a guaranteed up-smash), make upthrow kill at 140, and make all of his aerials and jab start 1 and end frame faster.



Realistically I think that if the dev team buff's him again they'll change the angle and knockback scaling on dthrow to give him more followups.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Reflect on Jab. Reflect on Jab.

 

[Blobface]

Reflect on Jab. Reflect on Jab.

If Ganondorf got a reflecting effect on one of his normals it would have to be F-tilt, just for the hilarity of Ganon booting everything from arrows to explosives to giant plasma blasts back at their users.

 

[Twoyears]

For me it's the little things.
1.Why on earth does aerial choke have no hitbox on frames 16-21? Were ganoncides that broken?
2.D-smash still doesn't link properly at times, which wasn't so bad when it was a crap move but ever since the buff I use it more and it gets pretty annoying.
3.Why is b-throw so weak? I'm not asking for ness b-throw here but at least make it kill at 160% near the ledge.
4.Why is his pummel so crap? At least let me get one pummel when they're 40% and below.

 

[Daeyrat]

Just give him Speed+18
His airspeed, groundspeed and jump height will be much better and he'll be able to thunderstorm again.

 

[Garioshi]

All aerials autocancel
PM utilt
Flame Choke is untechable
Flame Choke doesn't put you in freefall

and he's broken

 

[Jyro]

I'd actually like if his grounded Wizard's foot was buffed to beat out projectiles instead of clanking with most of them; it would make many matchup's better. It also goes with his design to attack forward directly instead of having to dodge/defend.
Also, if they reduce the startup and endlag(grab or not) of Dark Dive, it could be used more safely OoS (instead of normal grab) and you could actually follow up after it, also would be harder to punish for recovery.
Reflect on jab is something I've also wanted for a long time, since it comes out the fastest of his grounded moves and makes sense for his character (OoT boss). After a long range projectile is reflected, it gives Ganondorf more stage control and time to approach.
What if they made aerial Flame choke like Fox's illusion?: instead of putting him into special fall, just give him a set amount of time before he can do another move. It would help recovery and offstage gameplay.
If they give him anything, just please make his downsmash reliably combo into itself, and fix some of the action lines on his moves.

 

[shadenexus18]

Make him a little like Melee Ganondorf. Gerudo Dragon, Dark Dive, and Wizard Foot all had great KO potential.

 

[MagiusNecros]

His wizards foot on ground is pretty garbage isn't it?

 

[HeavyLobster]

His wizards foot on ground is pretty garbage isn't it?

It's useful for covering landings and rolls, but its reward is pretty weak overall and it's horrible on block. A slight damage buff could be nice, especially as it is currently punishable on hit at low %s. Not garbage, but not as good as many of his other moves.

 

[MagiusNecros]

It's useful for covering landings and rolls, but its reward is pretty weak overall and it's horrible on block. A slight damage buff could be nice, especially as it is currently punishable on hit at low %s. Not garbage, but not as good as many of his other moves.

It should be plowing through shields. Slowest kick.

 

[HeavyLobster]

It should be plowing through shields. Slowest kick.

At least plowing through projectiles. A single lemon can stop it now.

 

[MagiusNecros]

At least plowing through projectiles. A single lemon can stop it now.

Needs same priority as aerial version. Right now it can be stopped by sissy attacks.

 

[verbatim]

His wizards foot on ground is pretty garbage isn't it?

It actually goes over Ness's PK Fire (not Lucas), but yes generally speaking it's primary use is to punish people that commit to an ultra heavy move far away/read a roll away on a Flame Choke.

 

[Sünta]

The only thing he needs is better jab range, a slight buff on grab range and a move that has high priority to stop projectiles (like his nair)

 

[TOGOpuff]

- increase wizzkick priority / run over some projectiles
- a little faster jab
- better grab rang
- a little more priority on fair and dair on sweetspot (so we could trade sweetspotted dair with rosalina's upair)
- + 0.34 to + 0.5 speed

and we got ourselves a high tier

 

[Kamtheman56]

Speed up Ganondorf's grab and give him much better range, give Ganondorf reflector properties on Ftilt, speed up his jab to be faster than Ftilt (Seriously this needs to happen) and just for laughs and giggles give him Brawl Side B

 

[Romans]

He is not crap like Ike, Charizard, or the Mii Swordfighter.

You talking **** about my boy Ike?

 

[Swoops]

The Ganondorf Buffs Wishlist

• N-Air start up reduced (7f > 5f, other frames adjusted to match)
• N-Air landing frames reduced (18f > 15f)
• All other aerial landing frames reduced by 1f
• Jab start up reduced (8f > 6f)
• Jab FAF reduced (35f > 26f)
• FTilt shield pushback slightly increased
• DTilt start up reduced (10f > 9f, FAF adjusted to match)
• Grounded Side B start up reduced (16f > 14f)
• Up B grab hitbox start up reduced (14f > 6f)
• Super armor added to Up B frames 1 - 5
• Up B and Side B no longer produce free fall state

Everything else is just gravy. I swear if I see this on patch notes day, I'll use my one cry allowed for Ganondorf mains.

 

[_Magus_]

I'd love to see

-Fast, short ranged jab ala Project M
-Untechable Flame Choke

Then I can die happy

 

[IrkenPPG]

You talking **** about my boy Ike?

Before the buff Ike

 

[Top Boss]

what if ganondorf had more frame advantage on flame choke? missed tech=f smash. and he will be able to tech chase characters with longer tech rolls easier. that would make him scurry

 

[Kenith]

Give him his own moveset where he actually performs abilities from Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess-
Oh, you said without making him OP.

In that case, I think giving him damage and knockback buffs would be enough honestly.
Especially on moves like Wizard's Foot and Dark Dive (it is so bad).

 

[MagiusNecros]

Give him his own moveset where he actually performs abilities from Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess-
Oh, you said without making him OP.

In that case, I think giving him damage and knockback buffs would be enough honestly.
Especially on moves like Wizard's Foot and Dark Dive (it is so bad).

They won't be changing movesets.

 

[Kenith]

They won't be changing movesets.

That was pretty clearly a joke.

 

[MagiusNecros]

That was pretty clearly a joke.

Hard to tell.

 

[adom4]

what if ganondorf had more frame advantage on flame choke? missed tech=f smash. and he will be able to tech chase characters with longer tech rolls easier. that would make him scurry

That would be broken beyond belief.

 

[Mr.Dirkins]

I don't think anybody has suggested it yet, but what Ganon needs is even more defense rather than speed.
well, a little speed. maybe at least more responsive attacks and run speed. walking is actually fine. endlag is really bad.
lf you give him Bowsers constant Heavy armor it removes a lot of problems with the smallest projectiles stopping him cold.
It makes sense, with him being as heavy as Bowser, being impervious to anything but the mastersword in his games, and literally wearing heavy armor.
If he is going to be a clone, make him closer to someone in his weight class.

 

[Axel311]

I think Gannon just needs to be faster. He just can't keep up with the top tiers. Better frame better, faster run speed is what he needs. He's too campable. Every time I play gannon no matter what character it's always the same strategy. I run away, camp, wait for him to commit to something and then punish.