What would make Zelda a Balanced character? (Open Discussion)

[BJN39]

I have still noticed a change, could you explain how it is impossible unless on bowser jr, shulk, or palutena, do they take more damage or something.

Each of them can take more damage from attacks under certain circumstances:

• Bowser Jr's actual body takes more damage, while his car takes less at all times.

• Palutena when in lightweight takes more damage in trade for the massive speed boost.

• 2-3 of Shulk's Monado arts make him take more damage in return for alternate benefits.

 

[PUK]

I have still noticed a change, could you explain how it is impossible unless on bowser jr, shulk, or palutena, do they take more damage or something.

I did the 3 forward airs in a row in a match against a lvl9 CPU before the updates started making them better.

Bowser Jr has a 1.15 damage modifier if you hit the bowser, but 0.88 if you hit the car (it's actually a very important thing to know).
Shulk has damage modifier as well with some arts, and in custom palutena has a damage modifier with lightweight.
Still, excuse me but i'm more confident in proof like data than your memory alone.
Ninja'd

 

[ZombieBran]

Very few tweaks would make her so much better

Fair-Bair: Give the Sourspot more knock back and damage so it actually does something, kinda like Palutenas fair do she would have an approach. Also make it SHAC

Din's Fire: Give it a traveling hitbox so people can't just run through it.

Nair: Give it 11% on both sides or even better make it do 14% in the front and 11% in the back. For a move with 19 frames of landing lag, it needs better reward or maybe 12 frames of landing lag.

I feel like that would help her so much already.

If any of these happen I will worship the ground Sakurai walks on.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

The 3 lightning kicks could have possibly been on bowser jr, but since this thread is about how to make Zelda's moves better, fix her stupid up air, sure it is a disjoint but when you use it it just sits there.

 

[ZombieBran]

Uair either needs a startup buff (frame 9 like PM's electric finger addition, basically) or KB close to Brawl Uair.
Right now it's slow to start up and doesn't kill when Dthrow > Uair is less easy for opponents to avoid.

 

[Darktundra]

Balanced Zelda pt.2
Grab
Zelda is infamous for having the poorest non tether grab frame data in the game. Not only does it start up slower than standard grabs of similar range but also have higher end lag.
Changes to be made
Standing grab
Frame 10-11->7-8
IASA 38->32
Dash grab
Frame 11-12->9-10
IASA 47->41
Pivot grab
Frame 11-12->9-10
IASA 45->38

These stats come from averaged out frame data between Marth and Mewtwo. While zelda has the exact grab range of Marth, it should be made clear that she has high damage out put from throws.
This data really is not a buff, it is the act of fixing something that is broken.

Forward throw
Changes to be made
Decrease endlag
Decrease knockback growth

This will increase options for early combos and facilitated edge guard meta at higher percents.

Up throw
Changes to be made
Increase hitstun
Decrease base knockback
Decrease endlag

This will allow for all percent follow ups like G&W's down throw.

Back throw
Changes to be made
Base knockback 60->70
Knockback growth 80-85

This buff will secure ko's earlier.

Down throw
Damage 6%->9%
Decrease endlag
Increased hitstun

This buff will allow for early combos and KO set ups.
Aerials
Nair
Changes to be made
First hit frame 6->5
Landing lag 19->11
IASA 44
Increase range by .25
Increase priority

this will make nair more reliable to where it will be on par with sword wielders and villager's nair.
Up air
IASA frame 47
knockback growth 90->105

This will make SH up air a thing and increase the power of up air to almost Brawl's up air
Forward air
IASA frame 45

Breaks 2/3 of shield
Knockback growth 95-104
Sour spot 4%->6%
Base knockback 5->10

Enable SHAC and makes shield grabbing risky.

Back air
Breaks 2/3 shield
IASA frame 45
Knockback growth 96-105
Sour spot 4%->6%
Base knockback 5->10

Shield breaks and KO's sooner
Pt.3 specials coming soon.

 

[BJN39]

I made a few revisions to the jab tuning still keeping the style of Sakurai patching.

Jab
    all looping hitboxes
        angle 361/361/80 –> 20/20/92
        sdi x1.0 –> x0.5
    looping hitbox 2
        size 4.0 –> 5.0
    all final hitboxes
        sizes increased by 0.5

The wkb is not actually an issue aside a 1-pixel margin on specific characters. The final hit's small hitboxes actually don't reach on hit three if you tipper with the top of them, so a size increase on hit three, which should've been a thing in the first place, is in order.

FYI the 20 degree angles are double advantageous to Sakurai angles on hits 1-2. They knock airborne opponents lower than a Sakurai angle, which helps connecting, and they actually bring grounded opponents a micro amount off the ground, preventing grounded hit stun animations from ducking below the other hits, AND it also makes the final hit more advantageous a lot more often.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Ok, this might sound a bit weird, but...

Aerials
• Nair totally auto-cancels, no landing lag
• Nair 60% bigger hitboxes (almost as big as Roy's nair
• Nair, Fsmash and Usmash link better
• Nair last hit is a semi-spike
• Fair/Bair do 20% and increased knockback (like a lot)
• Less landing lag on fair/bair by approx 9 frames
• Less landing lag on dair by approx 13 frames
• Up air autocancels
• Frame 6 Up air

General
• Much better air and falling speed
• Sliiiightly faster dash
• Leans over in crouch, ducks under SH PK fire (Lucas)
• When in rage, flame effects on wrists, like Lucario's aura (just aesthetic), same effects from up taunt (or side taunt?)
• Double jump like Mewtwo, just an effect, sound effect of Din's fire leaving hand

Smash attacks
• F smash more range (like 50% bigger)

Tilts
• F-tilt 20% more range
• U-tilt animation sped up, less cooldown (Like Falco's up-tilt)

Throws:
• Back throw kills slightly earlier
• Up throw kills
• Forward throw is more horizontal
• Down throw combos until like 100% with up air

Specials
Okay.

• Din's Fire has like, 4-7 frames of cooldown, but that's it. Almost no endlag
• Din's fire is much faster, travels like Link's arrows fast
• Explosion slightly bigger, does more shield damage
• Teleport has no endlag if you land with it.
• Phantom Strike comes out almost immediately. Works like Ike's side B; if it meets something, it hits. Much bigger hitbox, large crescent slash. Almost breaks shields if fully charged.

Alt Costume
• something like the Hyrule Warriors attire, but regal blue instead of pink, and a triforcy chestplate.

 

[PUK]

You basically want to make a zelda tier with both versions of zelda in it.

 

[SpandexBullets]

You basically want to make a zelda tier with both versions of zelda in it.

There's already a Shiek tier

 

[Darktundra]

Balanced Zelda pt. 3 Specials.

Nayru's Love
Hit frame: 13-28
Reflection frame: 5-43
Intangibility frame: 5-12
IASA: 60
Great reflector with a poor multiplier.
Falco's trip
R.o.b's does 18% has mobility and KO potential
Pit's can block attacks
Mario's turn its opponent to the opposite direction.
Changes to be made
Intangibility 5-12->3-18
Increase size by .75
Increase knockback growth 100->150
First hit has high priority and 1.5 hitstun
This will stop opponents from grabbing/attacking/KOing her while using this move.
She can now break combos that would destroy her and can knock opponents away to a distance that would be safe.
Also, rolls can be punished more efficiently.
Din's Fire
IASA 71 minimum charge
Hit frame 16 upon release
Special landing lag 21 frames
Changes to be made
IASA 71->45 minimum
Hit frame upon release 16->8
Speed up and double length that Zelda glides
Landing lag 21->10
This move is so powerful but its basically useless in competitive gameplay because of its endlag.
The fact that Zelda has such a poor projectile is one of many reasons she gets ran over. There are not many projectiles that are easier to avoid.
These changes will decrease her vulnerability. And improve her projectile game. The new gliding buff will give her another recovery option. Yes, I support no free fall din's but being realistic Nintendo will think the change too drastic.
Farore's wind
Great move. I think its over powered but its on a poor character so...
Changes to be made
Decrease SDI multiplier 1.0->0.5 on first hit
Drastically increase cliff sweetspot range upon reappearance
Enable free fall animation after reappearance
Landing lag 30->25
IASA 81->65
Gasp! These are buff to a jank move. But this is Zelda's sole recovery option unlike Luigi who has three specials to assist him and jigglypuff who has six jumps. In the end its a punishable move but a safer recovery and more reliable finisher.
PHANTOM SLASH
IASA 72 Minimum
Hit frame: 11-24 from released charge
Changes to be made
IASA 72->60
Fix the friggin hitboxes to match the animation
Invincibility while attacking, the phantom
Make hit 1 knock opponent into hit two
Make phantom KO 25% sooner
Release animation 21->9
This will help Zelda and improve her offstage game and be a random viable element in the heat of battle.
The new power buff will make the charge time worth whileal and cause alot of lols.
With new endlag one could combo the full phantom to farore's and get a guaranteed shield break that would be epic on stream.
A true glass canon

 

[JayWon]

Wrote this awhile ago

My ideal wishes that will never come true:

• First of all why does her down special even break in the first place? It's nowhere near decent or useful of a move to the point that just the thought and consideration for this move to break should have NEVER occurred. I don't really get it. Does this move all of a sudden become overpowered and all of a sudden be more frustrating to deal with than Luma if it didn't break? Not that Zelda will be vastly improve if her down special didn't break but since it does break for some bizarre reason, at least let Zelda store her Down-special charges and the freedom to release whenever to just let her have **more options in the neutral.** So funny cuz, Zelda can't even hold her down-special indefinitely like Rosalina's charge shot.
• Holy amazing balls it would be miraculous if Zelda's up-special has the option to reappear laglessly without a hitbox just like Meta knight's down special! **It would be so cool if she had more dynamic options**! Up-special pressure mindgames teleporting behind your shielding opponent cuz they fear of the usual strong KO hitbox of Farore's Wind but SIKE! Lagless no hitbox free grab yay! And I literally die inside when I miss the ledge by 1 mm with her upspecial but her aerial movement when freefalling all of sudden is worse than little mac.
• Never played PM Zelda and I have no idea what is going on but that PM Din's Fire is witchcraft and I need it. But forget about witchcraft. Let's stay reasonable.
• No free fall after Din's fire. This is just straight up bull**** and Zelda absolutely does not deserve this. Why Sakurai? Does using her side-b to assist her recovery without free falling destroy the universe? Is not free falling just unreasonable/unfair/broken/OP/annoying? Why? Seriously WHY? In general, just **more viable control/mobility options** rewarding mastery of technique of the her side-b aerial momentum; let it be a **viable option to space** similar to peach yet unique; let her approach/travel along with her Din's fire; Give us more freedom, options, control, and moves that have PURPOSE. GIVE US TOOLS FOR US TO BE CREATIVE. Currently, I just question why they even bothered adding that laggy gliding mechanic with her Din's Fire? Slow start up, slow explosion, unacceptably completely unviable amounts of end lag. This move literally is always a mediocre option; seriously, do something else. What did they expect us to do with this? Why is everything so damn punishable?
• Super armor on her neutral-b and have some **degree of control of Nayru's Love's duration** (Like Ryu's Focus Attack or Meta knight's Neutral B). C'mon! All the top tiers have the luxury to bask in endless discussion/hate on whether they are OP or not. Zelda deserves at least one decent move that raises people's eyebrows! This isn't even asking for much at all. I get so upset for Zelda when she gets knocked away but you can see Nayru's Love spinning around her in hitstun while she is getting rekt and rush downed. Does having more priority in her neutral-b make her OP/broken? Let me remind you Pit has a reflecting super armor that moves him forward and KILLS and can be used as a recovery option! WHY SAKURAI ARE YOU SO CONSERVATIVE WITH HER BUFFS?
• Better aerial game... Change either the F-air or B-air completely to a safer longer range spacing tool PLEASE! Zelda spacing with N-air is the most depressing thing of all time. And yeah the reduced landing lag is nice, and that 11% N-air (if it all connects) is cool too but still doesn't do enough justice in terms of balance design and trade off when you compare it to Luigi/Ness's N-air that comes out wayyyy faster, tremendous priority, auto cancels and does 12%/11% on the SPOT. I am not a game developer nor an expertise on balance but to me this does not make sense; Either the damage output for Ness/Luigi is too high and/or Zelda's is too low.

In summary, Zelda needs more drastic buffs and straight up complete redesigns though it'll never happen. She is a Lightweight, Slow movement/frame data, Tall character that "zones" with the slowest most punishable projectiles, supposedly having "good" KO powers THAT DOESN'T EVEN FULLY CONNECT SOMETIMES (thank god for up-smash buff). I reluctantly understand (I GUESS) the balance concept they were intending, but right now in terms of trade offs, she is a mess and far from balanced and her "strengths" are nowhere near capable to make up for her weaknesses. She is FORCED to approach with one of the WORST run speed with no approach options and too many of her moves are similar and similarly *bad*. U-tilt, N-air, Nayru's Love, Down Smash all very close NO range moves that pretty much share similar utility of hitting both sides of her but all with terrible priority, poor damage output, all literally with below average frame data and below average end lag. F-air/B-air practically exactly the same. Din's Fire and her down-special serve similar situational SLOW long range purposes that everyone can see from miles away and you bet she'll be punished for using it. I know everyone loves to say "XXXX has potential!" but Zelda's potential ceiling is clearly visible and pretty low and practically already reached because of the severe lack of options. I discourage complaining and am fond of encouraging people to adapt but guess what? All the top tiers can adapt to Zelda right back with superior tools and superior options. Even just dealing with needles and luigi's spamming fireballs are one the many stressful things to overcome with as Zelda; on the other hand your opponent literally just pressed the B button and it was super damn effective. How can you ever expect or dream of Zelda not being in low tier in the future meta when she's always 2 steps behind, with crappy punishable tools with terrible priority? [It's not even sad, it's disgustingly cruel.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVnuQEC-pyI) Adapting is not enough. All Zelda mains deserve to and should complain LOUDLY! ENOUGH with all the small humble requests! DREAM BIGGER! ZELDA NEEDS MAJOR CHANGES!

 

[Crudedude]

Jab- let it connectWhat's up with her whiffing with attacks that she needs I will increase the range or knock back because this move screams out "Get Back" to me.
ftilt-that dead zone should hit and it should knock them forward while hitting with her hand should pop people above her head like previous games if she gonna keep her a combo uptilt. It should also be able to collide against items and attacks (She magically enhance her hand) just to make this move stand out from F-smash
downtilt-give back that 7% damage I don't see what was so bad about this move racking up damage 7%.
Naryu's Love- I like how PM gave this move less end lag and allows punishment/set up which zelda needs. Also I recall Melee and/or Brawl stating something like this (not word for word), use this to reflect projectile. It can also be used as an offense. So stay true to your words.
Din's fire- faster and further the way it is I can't move it where it makes a difference and its range is completely out shine by it's customs. No free fall.
Phantom Slash- No longer a projectile Yay, let it be a summon like an assist trophy. I get annoyed seeing this piece of armor swing mid way and get reflected, it don't make sense to me how can you reflect a sword. Where it is going maybe but when it's swinging it's flat out ridiculous. This move will still be useless because it charges too long and it is easy to read. faster start up.
Fair and Bair- less lag and that goes for nair too (Have it the same lag frame as dair?). make the sweet spot vertically bigger maybe twice the size it is since dair being horizontally twice as big as it was in brawl made it into a good spike hopefully this would do the move some good because fair and bair is not really worth the risk as it is. Increase sourspot damage to 7% because she's putting all the effort to kick.
D-Smash- More range it's perfect in brawl sigh but if this had more range it'll be seen more often.
B-throw- Kill somewhere around 110-120%, most of zelda's throws are meh and having a kill throw at 140% is like having no kill throw at all with Zelda's A moves and B moves. So having KB on B-throw just give her more option and more reason to grab other than down throw or up throw.
F-throw- I don't know why would I use this expect to throw people back off stage with a 12% most useless grab she has. I believe more KB would be best it hurts and the KB should fit the visual.

 

[Rizen]

IMO Zelda needs some practical moves. Most of her move set is situational and committing; high risk/reward that doesn't work vs good players. Give her things like a fast Fair with low landing lag but no sweet/sour spots. A low end-lag Ftilt for safe pokes. Maybe a Uair that is weaker but sweeps like Peach's or Zelda's Utilt. Din's that works more like Pit's arrows with no free falling. A weaker but store-able phantom. And boost her dash speed.

 

[Hentai_Kittie]

Well. I don't mind how Zelda is designed at all. Being a tall, light, glass cannon with sweet spots in her attacks is fine. The moveset is good (except for phantom, he's redundant) so i don't have a problem. But what i do hate is that she's got all the weaknesses she's supposed to have, but very little of the strengths that she needs to function. Namely, she has far too much lag for a character of her type.

Side-B
I don't mind that it's slow and sorta telegraphed, the free fall is fair if the attack is strong (Brawl), i guess that's the point of it. I don't even mind so much about it having a sweetspot now (even though i still hate it). But what needs changing is the sour spot being too weak. It doesn't even kill at 300% and thats very very very bad. Not to mention that the sweetspot isn't even strong enough to have a sour spot that weak. As of right now the sweet spot should be killing at 50%.
To fix this: It needs to travel abit further, increase it's radius abit, and at least boost the sourspot KB so that it kills at least by 150%. Also it needs an endlag reduction.
OR: Give the sourspot a stun effect. At long range it won't help that much but close up it would be pretty handy
OR-2: Get rid of the sweetspot, currently it's helping no one...

Up-B
This move is fine, although i'm quite sure that this move alone is the reason why all her other attacks are worse then her brawl self. I'd rather this move be nerfed so that all her others could be buffed.
To fix this: slight endlag reduction

Down-B
I hate the thought of this move, I wish she had got some sort of magic mine instead. However, This move is so seriously heldback in every way it hurts. I know what they were trying to do but wow, it's bound, gagged and gimped. This move is supposed to give her some middle-range options and buff her projectile defense, i see that. I also like the idea that it can be destroyed, that's incredibly unique even though nerfing it's timer is not fine. The problem is, is that the charge time is far too long, too much lag at the end of it to make any type of use of it, it's HP is WAY too low, and it has a massive blindspot in front of her.
To fix this: reduce the charge time in half, increase it's HP to 25, either have the blindspot push the enemy past the range of it's attack, or have it drag them along to get hit, have the respawn timer back to it's pre-nerf self. Also reduce the endlag by 4/5ths. However, i'd like that the longer you charge it, the less endlag it has. That would make it pretty interesting.
OR: Make it holdable and reduce the endlag slightly

Neutral-B
For the most part, this move is fine, But I don't like how all of it's "functions" are delayed. Nothing hits and nothing reflects when you first use it even though you can clearly see the crystal. I don't know what words to say about how to fix that... but FIX THAT.

Up-Smash
After the patch it's actually not that bad, i've been able to actually make some use of it. Of course i prefer it's brawl version but hey...
To fix this: just raise it's hitbox so it's not at the top of her scalp. It should at least stop SOME jump-ins that aren't that ranged.

Down-Smash
This move has absolutely no range. It has the range of a pomeranian sticking it's tounge out. It's got ok power, it needs abit more though
To fix this: all it needs is increased range. The hitbox is far too close to her body

Forward-Smash
There is still the issue of some characters falling out of it, but for the most part it's fine.

Up-Tilt
I don't mind the change from brawl, i can see what they intended but it's rarly useful since Up-Smash could and still sorta can do the job. I'd say forget the combo thing, and just give it it's powerback since she's lacking in kill moves now. I guess this move is ok though.

Down-Tilt
This move is fine. I prefer the tripping version though

Forward-Tilt
Please fix the blind spot. But other then that this move is fine

Jab
I don't see why people have a problem with it being delayed, it's not really a problem. at least, i've never noticed any issue with it and i use it alot.

Neutral-Air
Ok. NORMALLY this move would be a pretty great move for any other character. However with Zelda, it's her only air move that the enemy
To fix this: It needs to do 2% front and back and give it some vertical range.
OR: Just have it auto-cancel. This would give her plenty of opportunities to be aggressive.

Up-Air
Why is the hitbox so small? I rarely use it because i miss half the time and i know i'm a pretty accurate person.
To fix this: Make the hitbox slightly bigger

Down-Air
This move is fine

Forward/Back-Air
Now, I understand why this move is the way it is and has the lag it does so i've got no problems. However, i'd wish that they give the sourspot slightly more knockback so that the enemy at least moves abit when hit.

I don't know much about he throws. But all of these changes should cause her to be middle tier. None of these changes are drastic either, they are really just fixes to what should already have happened

 

[LRodC]

Din's Fire needs some serious changes. It is far too laggy and poor as it is now. In order to be viable, it needs to be faster, have less end lag, have the ability to detonate earlier, and it should do more shield damage. It needs at least something to make it a decent poking projectile, something Zelda would really benefit from.

Lightning Kicks also need more powerful sour spots (and possibly sweet spots as well). It's very easy to get heavily punished by lightning kick whether you land it or not since the sourspot is so weak and doesn't push the opponent at all. Even Falcon's Knee does that somewhat. I would be okay with the landing lag if the reward was greater.

Back throw should be a killing throw, maybe slightly less or equal KB to Ness. It would make sense considering she's somewhat of a mighty glacier, and it would really help her out.

N-air should have less landing lag or a larger hitbox. Either one or the other, but both would be nice.

Up air should kill earlier. If that's not feasible, then allow down throw to link into the current up air better so that it's either a true combo or a close enough follow up that can't be easily DIed from.

There's more that needs to be done in my opinion, but these are the main things in mostly descending order. Phantom was on this list, but most of the issues I had with with it have been rectified. Storable Phantom would be nice, but we can't anticipate something like that until the next game.

 

[Rebel13]

It's very easy to get heavily punished by lightning kick whether you land it or not since the sourspot is so weak and doesn't push the opponent at all. Even Falcon's Knee does that somewhat. I would be okay with the landing lag if the reward was greater.

Back throw should be a killing throw, maybe slightly less or equal KB to Ness. It would make sense considering she's somewhat of a mighty glacier, and it would really help her out.

N-air should have less landing lag or a larger hitbox. Either one or the other, but both would be nice.

Up air should kill earlier. If that's not feasible, then allow down throw to link into the current up air better so that it's either a true combo or a close enough follow up that can't be easily DIed from.

I agree with this. I kinda wish lightning kicks were like marth's tipper smashes, where they have more lag when tipper/sweetspotted (her current lag) and less on the sourspot.

So you know, for Dthrow to Uair, currently it does actually true combo from about 100% to 140% on some mid weight characters and fast fallers (C. Falcon, ROB, Fox, etc.). You just have to frame perfect buffer it out of the throw and anticipate the DI if they go left or right, which makes it less practical, but I've gotten plenty of kills off it.

 

[LRodC]

I agree with this. I kinda wish lightning kicks were like marth's tipper smashes, where they have more lag when tipper/sweetspotted (her current lag) and less on the sourspot.

So you know, for Dthrow to Uair, currently it does actually true combo from about 100% to 140% on some mid weight characters and fast fallers (C. Falcon, ROB, Fox, etc.). You just have to frame perfect buffer it out of the throw and anticipate the DI if they go left or right, which makes it less practical, but I've gotten plenty of kills off it.

I get kills with it too occasionally, but the DI prediction gets pretty annoying and makes it tough to consistently land the combo. A good compromise without borking it would be to give down throw less ending lag, similar to what Charizard got this patch. That would allow us to act into our n-air or up air faster and allow more consistent follow ups without giving her a "finger bang hoo-hah".

 

[Sailor Mercury]

I agree with the OP about the nayru's love change. I'd also like to see nayru's love have a little less ending lag. It seems to have a noticeable change in terms of end lag from brawl to sm4sh. This makes love jumps a lot less reliable, whereas in brawl that was probably zelda's best recovery option. I'll find myself doing a perfect love jump, only to be hit at the end of it due to the terrible end lag of nayru's love. Other times, it'll go through perfectly and even hit the opponent away from you just like a normal nayru's love does. When that happens, there is no better feeling.

Love jumps are still great in sm4sh, however, the end lag really makes us suffer from using it, since you can rarely add anything onto the end of it unless you use it when you're high in the air. I'd like to be able to string on an air dodge or even a back/front air after a love jump, like you could in brawl. With love jumps not being able to move you as high up as they could in brawl(in sm4sh I've only noticed being able to do a directional love jump rather than one going straight up),it's a bit of a let down.

In the end, what could it hurt? In terms of the meta game, I think that it would definitely help zelda against some of the tougher match ups. So many characters have tons of options and zelda's are limited, so I think it would be pretty fair to make such a change. Doubtful to see it happen, but one can wish.

EDIT: I agree with the lightning kicks. I actually have a big problem with them in this game. In one of the tips it said they are "easier" to land in sm4sh than in brawl, but I could not disagree more. I feel like they were much easier to land in brawl AND they had almost no end lag. Not only did this help zelda's entire kit be more fluent, it also allowed us to have some extremely reliable combos..Such as a sour spotted bair>half of a nair>sweet spotted bair. It's in Jujux's broken heels combo video for brawl many times. I can't tell you how many kills I've gotten from that combo, and it doesn't even exist in sm4sh. It's a huge let down. The end lag of lightning kicks now is just terrible.

 

[Darktundra]

I agree with the OP about the nayru's love change. I'd also like to see nayru's love have a little less ending lag. It seems to have a noticeable change in terms of end lag from brawl to sm4sh. This makes love jumps a lot less reliable, whereas in brawl that was probably zelda's best recovery option. I'll find myself doing a perfect love jump, only to be hit at the end of it due to the terrible end lag of nayru's love. Other times, it'll go through perfectly and even hit the opponent away from you just like a normal nayru's love does. When that happens, there is no better feeling.

Love jumps are still great in sm4sh, however, the end lag really makes us suffer from using it, since you can rarely add anything onto the end of it unless you use it when you're high in the air. I'd like to be able to string on an air dodge or even a back/front air after a love jump, like you could in brawl. With love jumps not being able to move you as high up as they could in brawl(in sm4sh I've only noticed being able to do a directional love jump rather than one going straight up),it's a bit of a let down.

In the end, what could it hurt? In terms of the meta game, I think that it would definitely help zelda against some of the tougher match ups. So many characters have tons of options and zelda's are limited, so I think it would be pretty fair to make such a change. Doubtful to see it happen, but one can wish.

EDIT: I agree with the lightning kicks. I actually have a big problem with them in this game. In one of the tips it said they are "easier" to land in sm4sh than in brawl, but I could not disagree more. I feel like they were much easier to land in brawl AND they had almost no end lag. Not only did this help zelda's entire kit be more fluent, it also allowed us to have some extremely reliable combos..Such as a sour spotted bair>half of a nair>sweet spotted bair. It's in Jujux's broken heels combo video for brawl many times. I can't tell you how many kills I've gotten from that combo, and it doesn't even exist in sm4sh. It's a huge let down. The end lag of lightning kicks now is just terrible.

I agree with your statement in terms of frame data regarding lightning kicks and Nayru's Love. Between Brawl and Sm4sh, Zelda has better Attributes in Sm4sh and better frame data in Brawl.
Lightning kicks need to be broken that's my take.
Brawl lightning kicks were not much harder to land and were safe because she could act sooner.
Nayru's Love needs so love by the game developers and playtesters, Sakurai also. Range buffs could eliminate 75% of the problems. Stupidly good intangibility would so fix all problems. But now its OP but its on a below average character.