What would make Zelda a Balanced character? (Open Discussion)

[Darktundra]

Hello fellow Zelda mains! To all users who push her to the highest ceiling obtainable, you have my respect.

This thread was created to give our social the freedom to express what improvements can make Zelda the glass cannon of sm4sh to be feared.

All opinions are accepted under three rules that they must abide by.....

1. You can't change the move into a completely different move.

2. Frame data must be used to justify claimed statements.

3. One must defend their claim by stating why the refurbished move is not broken.

Have fun.

 

[Darktundra]

Nayru's love.

There are many playstyles that Zelda can adapt to, however this is her fastest option for breaking combos.
Nayru's Love hits on frame 13 but has invincibility from frame 5 to 12 giving it 1 frame over Nair and Bait both being frame 6.
Despite its speed, the first few hits have little hitstun so your foe can just hit you through it and have his ending lag cancelled...why?!

I would fix this by expanding the invincibility from frame 5-12 to frame 3-16.
This buff would give Zelda a combo breaking option against foes like Luigi and make a safer retaliation. The two frame drop would be noticeable to all now that Zelda can break combos. The increase from frame 12-16 is there so Zelda is invincible during the first few hits. This will seal the deal with moves and grabs that out prioritized Nayru's.
Nayru's Love buff would not be broken because of its 32 frames of endlag and many players will start to bait Nayru's out combo setups. As for reflection properties, its almost too good as it is reflects frame 5-43 and a FAF of 60.17 frame interval where the opponent can use projectiles against Zelda.

 

[BJN39]

Nayru's love.

There are many playstyles that Zelda can adapt to, however this is her fastest option for breaking combos.
Nayru's Love hits on frame 13 but has invincibility from frame 5 to 12 giving it 1 frame over Nair and Bait both being frame 6.
Despite its speed, the first few hits have little hitstun so your foe can just hit you through it and have his ending lag cancelled...why?!

I would fix this by expanding the invincibility from frame 5-12 to frame 3-16.
This buff would give Zelda a combo breaking option against foes like Luigi and make a safer retaliation. The two frame drop would be noticeable to all now that Zelda can break combos. The increase from frame 12-16 is there so Zelda is invincible during the first few hits. This will seal the deal with moves and grabs that out prioritized Nayru's.
Nayru's Love buff would not be broken because of its 32 frames of endlag and many players will start to bait Nayru's out combo setups. As for reflection properties, its almost too good as it is reflects frame 5-43 and a FAF of 60.17 frame interval where the opponent can use projectiles against Zelda.

Honestly I would say just buffing the intangibility to 5-13 or 3-12 would be appropriate. It only needs to really surpass the hit start by 1 frame to start winning a lot more trades. Then it would be far from possibly broken when it can still lose some trades, only 1 frame overlap. Alternatively giving it only quicker start but no hit-frame overlap. I could only myself really see one or the other.

Also, I wanted to point out that it would be a 20 frame interval for reflecting. 16F of endlag and 4F of non-reflect startup if you do the next Nayru's as soon as possible.

 

[Zylach]

I've been considering how little changes like this to Nayru's Love would make it a lot more usable. I love having an emergency tool to get opponents off of me but have found more and more that using it is just not a good idea. I've tried to stop using it with as much frequency because of how super-punishable it is. I only really have two problems with NL right now.

1. Intangibility should extend to when the hitbox begins so a change like starting frame 3 and ending frame 13 would be ideal since it would actually be fast enough to get us out of stuff (I've been hit 1-2 frames before intangibility begins waaaaaay too often) and also make it so we can't be hit out of the attack as soon as the hitbox starts (something else that's happened waaaaay too often).

2. Rather than reduce the endlag, I actually think a slight range increase would be a little more fitting for the move since it's supposed to be a punishable move. However, with the range it currently has, certain characters can stand right next to us and charge a fsmash to full then release it before we can act again, hit us from past NL's range, and basically instakill us at 50%. Making it so it can't be outranged by so many killing moves would justify its incredible endlag. It would also help the move to do what it was designed to do, punish rolls. I've had people roll around my NL 2-3 times before inputting an attack and never take a tick of damage from it. The small range increase would make this stupid property impossible and would just generally be a good quality of life change above all else because NL has let me down more often than not recently because, while it's one of our best moves, it's still got it's problems (Like, actual problems that make the move function ineffectively at its given role).

This wouldn't be broken because the endlag is still punishable, just not punishable by a fully charged fsmash that outranges it. Furthermore, starting intangibility frames on frame 3 still make it impossible for her to NL through most safe spacing tools. It'd be useful in combo breaking and avoiding grabs, not to get out of everything always.

 

[BJN39]

Mock changelist idea I had for fixing Zelda's Dsmash :D I know the title has Nayru's up, but I was assuming this was more of a free discussion on ways to improve Zelda, so I hope you don't mind.

Dsmash
    front hit hitboxes
hitboxes 1 and 0 IDs swapped
kbg 86 -> 94
size 3.0/4.2 -> 3.5/4.8
    back hit hitboxes
hitboxes 1 and 0 IDs swapped
kbg 96 -> 104
size 3.0/4.2 -> 3.5/4.8

"IDs swapped" is talking about correcting the issue where the sweet-spot (Low angled hit) incorrectly had hitting priority over the sour-spot, (Higher angled hit) meaning the sour-spot basically wouldn't hit. In trade for making the sweet-spot technically harder to hit with both the size and KB were brought back slightly closer to their Brawl incarnations.

The front hit KB would once again be almost the same as Brawl's and the back hit would be stronger than Brawl's, but slightly weaker then the front still, by the difference in damage/KBG. These new sizes are still smaller than Brawl's, but less so now. It would be a tiny range increase though!

Simply based on comparisons to other Dsmashes ranging from very to remotely similar to Zelda's, I simply don't see a frame data buff happening. :\ It's actually comparatively in the middle/not bad as far as Dsmashes like hers' endlag goes, so I don't see how she'd get special treatment.

These changes would in no way make Dsmash broken, its KB and size increases aren't that big as to make the move become silly at all. More than one crutch would still exist in the move.

In addition a sweet-spot ID issue like with Dsmash exists with Ftilt's hit-boxes, but I have not yet thought of ways to alter than move aside the ID swaps, maybe it wouldn't even get more than the sweet-spot system being corrected. Not all of Zelda's moves need to be given good buffs all over, even if more should.

 

[Zylach]

Mock changelist idea I had for fixing Zelda's Dsmash :D I know the title has Nayru's up, but I was assuming this was more of a free discussion on ways to improve Zelda, so I hope you don't mind.

Dsmash
    front hit hitboxes
hitboxes 1 and 0 IDs swapped
kbg 86 -> 94
size 3.0/4.2 -> 3.5/4.8
    back hit hitboxes
hitboxes 1 and 0 IDs swapped
kbg 96 -> 104
size 3.0/4.2 -> 3.5/4.8

"IDs swapped" is talking about correcting the issue where the sweet-spot (Low angled hit) incorrectly had hitting priority over the sour-spot, (Higher angled hit) meaning the sour-spot basically wouldn't hit. In trade for making the sweet-spot technically harder to hit with both the size and KB were brought back slightly closer to their Brawl incarnations.

The front hit KB would once again be almost the same as Brawl's and the back hit would be stronger than Brawl's, but slightly weaker then the front still, by the difference in damage/KBG. These new sizes are still smaller than Brawl's, but less so now. It would be a tiny range increase though!

Simply based on comparisons to other Dsmashes ranging from very to remotely similar to Zelda's, I simply don't see a frame data buff happening. :\ It's actually comparatively in the middle/not bad as far as Dsmashes like hers' endlag goes, so I don't see how she'd get special treatment.

These changes would in no way make Dsmash broken, its KB and size increases aren't that big as to make the move become silly at all. More than one crutch would still exist in the move.

In addition a sweet-spot ID issue like with Dsmash exists with Ftilt's hit-boxes, but I have not yet thought of ways to alter than move aside the ID swaps, maybe it wouldn't even get more than the sweet-spot system being corrected. Not all of Zelda's moves need to be given good buffs all over, even if more should.

It seems that, when it comes to dsmashes overall, Sakurai just thought that none of them would be as good at killing as they used to be. Samus' doesn't kill like it did in melee, Zelda's doesn't kill anymore, I think Ike's got a KB reduction too. Granted, a lot of characters' dsmashes do kill like Mario and Link but I don't think Sakurai likes dsmashes being really good kill moves. That said, I think the change to the hitbox size would be the most beneficial since dsmash is completely overshadowed by NL in terms of a get-off-me move. Increasing the size would make it a second option for Zelda. One that's faster and sends the opponent at a much lower angle. Options are good. Do I get points for tying this directly to our discussion of NL?

 

[ZombieBran]

Nayru's should have its invincibility frames activated a bit earlier if only so Zelda is never hit out of it after the crystal has already appeared.

A small but significant range increase would improve it so much and would still leave it easily punishable; see PM. I understand the vertical limitations but currently its horizontal range is constantly disappointing me.
Of course if the range were to be increased we'd get complaints about how spammy Zeldas are impossible to hit on FG.

 

[Darktundra]

It seems that, when it comes to dsmashes overall, Sakurai just thought that none of them would be as good at killing as they used to be. Samus' doesn't kill like it did in melee, Zelda's doesn't kill anymore, I think Ike's got a KB reduction too. Granted, a lot of characters' dsmashes do kill like Mario and Link but I don't think Sakurai likes dsmashes being really good kill moves. That said, I think the change to the hitbox size would be the most beneficial since dsmash is completely overshadowed by NL in terms of a get-off-me move. Increasing the size would make it a second option for Zelda. One that's faster and sends the opponent at a much lower angle. Options are good. Do I get points for tying this directly to our discussion of NL?

On top of this, I would want

Nayru's should have its invincibility frames activated a bit earlier if only so Zelda is never hit out of it after the crystal has already appeared.

A small but significant range increase would improve it so much and would still leave it easily punishable; see PM. I understand the vertical limitations but currently its horizontal range is constantly disappointing me.
Of course if the range were to be increased we'd get complaints about how spammy Zeldas are impossible to hit on FG.

Even little Mac has low frame moves to escape ground and AIR combos

 

[BJN39]

It seems that, when it comes to dsmashes overall, Sakurai just thought that none of them would be as good at killing as they used to be. Samus' doesn't kill like it did in melee, Zelda's doesn't kill anymore, I think Ike's got a KB reduction too. Granted, a lot of characters' dsmashes do kill like Mario and Link but I don't think Sakurai likes dsmashes being really good kill moves. That said, I think the change to the hitbox size would be the most beneficial since dsmash is completely overshadowed by NL in terms of a get-off-me move. Increasing the size would make it a second option for Zelda. One that's faster and sends the opponent at a much lower angle. Options are good. Do I get points for tying this directly to our discussion of NL?

I mean, the KB increase I set there doesn't even make it KO as early as Brawl's Dsmash, and it was only bordering on early KO move. Hex, there's even vectoring now, which detracts more from horizontal KO moves too. I will be fair and mention there IS rage in this game, but I think it wouldn't be a problem if it got a small KB increase. Besides, it would be in the wake of the low angle being actually spacing-oriented as well. The higher angled hit wouldn't KO as early anyways. Sweet-spots...

It's not like it would become even close to being the earliest KO dsmash or anything. Right now it kills Mario at like, 150% with good vectoring. This would bring it to maybe 130% at the best.

Also, if it is overshadowed by Nayru's Love in many aspects, I...personally don't see anything wrong with it getting something Nayru's doesn't really have...

 

[Macchiato]

Nayru's Love should make Zelda stay in there for ever so she can never get hit, If she can't get hit. Then she is broken and will reach the sassT top tier then we can BAN•ZELDA.

 

[Darktundra]

D-smash: Zelda's.......more physical move
Making this frank, she really needs something more than speed to make this move viable.
Sorry to be a brawl fanatic......

Return leg intangibility
Increase base knockback on both sides slightly
Increase range (who ever thought it needed to be nerfed)
It would be op but give Zelda the only "first place" thing she had; the fastest down smash in melee. I don't even want it to be tied with R.O.B
Make down smash frame 3?!

This will give Zelda the Oos options to knock opponents away at a distance where ZeLDA will be safe in Neutrals.
Because the increase in base knockback, down smash will KO earlier but not really much sooner due to knockback growth. Down smash will have a GTFO purpose rather than assuring the KO. Nauru's love 2.0.

This will be balanced because it will improve neutral meta and be a zone breaker for close up brawlers providing a better, RELIABLE Oos option for Zelda.
While R.O.B has the range and multi hit properties, Zelda's should have speed and knockback. The down smash will still have endlag and be punishable and will eventually be a move to be baited out by people who battle Zelda mains

Nayru's Love should make Zelda stay in there for ever so she can never get hit, If she can't get hit. Then she is broken and will reach the sassT top tier then we can BAN•ZELDA.

Get the percent advantage then use Nayru's.
Time out opponent.
Zelda becomes a "brain dead" character

 

[ZombieBran]

Get the percent advantage then use Nayru's.
Time out opponent.
Zelda becomes a "brain dead" character

Then she becomes the first character to be top two on the tier list at once.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

honestly the only thing Zelda needs is the ability to camp. like really camp. not that "My opponent can't shoot me! *spams Dins*" or "I have X percent lead! *spams Dins*"

If Zelda could camp and force the approach she would be fine and i know how this could be achieved

Dins
*increase movement speed>Dins Flare speed
*allow full range of motion
*allow Zelda to shield cancel out of it
*decrease Dins BKB by a bit.

I want Dins to essentially stay the same just move quicker and allow Zelda full control over direction not just up or down. what this does is make Zelda a ranged threat because she can put Dins to explode where ever. opponents w/o a projectile will have to approach her if she has a lead because Zelda can spin Dins in place and people can't just mindlessly run past it. making it shield cancellable adds depth to Zelda. because she can do things like spin it once and shield cancel it going forwards to assist in her approach if she has to approach. this isn't a broken chance because.

Dins can still be cancelled out by attacks.
Dins isn't huge anymore and the BKB decrease means it won't kill as early as it could so people can't complain about it being an OP projectile.
Dins doesn't have a hitbox till Zelda lets go of the button or Dins goes its max distance

Phantom
*increase HP 13%>%20
*add unsummon on button press
*increase active time for being on screen/make permanent
*increase HP regen speed when unsummoned
*add fall speed to summoned phantom in air

Phantom just needs to be a better wall. holding charge is cute but its still a very telegraphed easy to avoid projectile. kind of like DH Gunman, the difference is gunman is harder to block the shots and refreshes faster. If Phantom had more HP he would be better at guarding Zelda from the front and blocking rush ins. being able to unsummon phantom would allow Zelda to re position Phantom if she needs to move to camp elsewhere or prevent him from being destroyed. this would also make her a better teammate because she has a better wall to block with. phantom fall speed makes it where Zelda is a monster at the ledge. she can time phantom to fall in front of the ledge so her opponents can't grab it or run into phantom on recovering giving her a perfect opportunity to spike. this isn't broken because:

phantom can still be destroyed and has a 10 second respawn time.
phantom fall speed makes it where people can't complain about phantom hogging the ledge because he can only do that if timed correctly.
phantom still has deadzones.

i think these two changes will push Zelda to midtier because it solves one of her major problems. she can still lose to rushdown and swords but now she can actually not be forced to approach 90% of the time with her bad approach options. there are lots of other things that should be tweaked but to me this is the most important issue she has that has NEVER been addressed.

 

[PUK]

DownSmash: little more range on the front it, both hit do 12%
Nayru's love: intangibility 4-31, reflect box 4-40, slight range increase on the last hit.
Make the intangibility start a little sooner (remind, a frame 3 or 4 aerial is not rare) and never end until the end of the animation. Since there is few hitbox on top and under zelda, she will be safe
Din's; like ike and some other's freefall inducer the move AC at a certain height
No way this move hit a sober opponent ever. But being able to exploit the little respect it demands would be nice.
Phantom: Huge lag reduction, zelda is able to move at the end of the slash with a uncharged phantom. Light increase of the startup lag (min charge time: 14 frames), more hp (16,5%)
See din
Nair: 13 frame landing lag
See everyone frame data, there is a low landing lag aerial, or one whith a huge AC window. I don't want fair or bair to be like those, but nair is clearly designed to be like them.
Uair: 12-15 frame, IASA 42
Allow zelda to avoid retaliation after an AD, less start up to make the set up less frail. Otherwise the move is still slow and not that powerful
Dair: 12-22, IASA 42, Bkb and kbg increase on sourspot
Same thing bu the move is good, so let's make it awesome
Fair: slight kbg increase, IASA 44
Bair: idem
These are weak and punishable compared to Falcon Fair. Which has a better sweetspot
Ftilt: tipper does 13,5%, IASA 34
The move needs something to sell over Fsmash. When i see a move with 12 frame of start up and a sweetspot mecanic i expect something good to compensate. Like low end lag or big reward.
With IASA at 34 there is still more than 20 frame of lag
Dtilt:3,8%, IASA 18
It's a combo tool, with low range. Right now the only thing you can hit with after using dtilt is dtilt
Utilt: 8%
Nothing justify the lack of punch (otherwise a very small buff)
Bthrow: 12%
Kill earlier
FG Wind: BkB strongly reduce on FGW2 (90->68), KbG increased (70->84)
I expect Zelda to be able to stand without a jank move, so let nerf it a bit.

 

[Darktundra]

DownSmash: little more range on the front it, both hit do 12%
Nayru's love: intangibility 4-31, reflect box 4-40, slight range increase on the last hit.
Din's; like ike and some other's freefall inducer the move AC at a certain height
Phantom: Huge lag reduction, zelda is able to move at the end of the slash with a uncharged phantom. Light increase of the startup lag (min charge time: 14 frames), more hp (16,5%)
Nair: 13 frame landing lag
Uair: 12-15 frame, IASA 42
Dair: 12-22, IASA 42, Bkb and kbg increase on sourspot
Fair: slight kbg increase, IASA 44
Bair: idem
Ftilt: tipper does 13,5%, IASA 34
Dtilt:3,8%, IASA 18
Utilt: 8%
Bthrow: 12%
FG Wind: BkB strongly reduce on FGW2 (90->68), KbG increased (70->84)

The true power behind such a moveset sounds nice I would like to hear justification over the frame data soon.

 

[Zylach]

TBH, I don't wanna see huge changes to Zelda. All she needs are a few changes and she can become a lot better.

Nair: 13 frames landing lag, front and back hits both do 2% per tick, range increase. Honestly, characters that use their limbs to attack in the air have better disjoints than our nair which is meant to be a disjointed attack. If it was given something like half of what Marth has on his nair, I'd be a lot happier with it. The landing lag reduction is necessary to make the move usable for what we're using it for now, spacing and kill setups. As it stands, having nair AC is nice but that only helps us if we hit confirm or are far enough away from the opponent that they can't rush us down anyway meaning the use of the move was nonexistent. The hitbox ends too early for the AC to mean anything because the opponent can start rushing us down as soon as the hitbox ends which is around the peak of her SH meaning she has a lot of time before she lands where she just can't do anything. Reducing the landing lag so we don't have to rely on ACing means we can actually safely space with the move and it's not super punishable on shield. The range increase would help this as well. This change would give us our only good spacing tool because, as it stands, Zelda is not able to space out most characters making her neutral game a train wreck.

Jab: Hitbox starts frame 5 or 6. Jab is not good. Our dtilt is our jab and we can't followup from dtilt on smart opponents because of the endlag combined with the fact that our only other followups on an opponent that's above 20% start on frame 11 or later giving the opponent plenty of time to jump out unless they're heavyweights and heavyweights often get to the ground and can shield before our jab even comes out (They can shield before another dtilt comes out until maybe 15%. I haven't tested this). The decrease in frames would also mean we wouldn't have to predict what the opponent is doing in order for the attack to land. We can't use it as a reactionary attack because basically every character's jab is faster than ours. We also can't use it to stuff approaches when the opponent isn't approaching us. Against a Sheik for example, she can space fairs against us all day and throwing out a jab to try and catch her at just the right moment will rarely work plus she is able to react to that and punish us before we can do anything.

Nayru's Love: I've already discussed what I want to see in Nayru's Love. See above.

Farore's Wind: Ok, I know the elevator gets us ridiculously early kills but hear me out on this one. FW should not kill. This is a big change which undermines my earlier comment that she only really needs small changes. Basically, this would make her a high-mid tier or high tier threat. Part of the gimmick of this move is that the elevator is really the only way Zelda can utilize it to kill unless she is facing an incredibly laggy projectile user like Robin because the reappear occurs on frame 41 meaning an opponent can react to it long before it comes out. There is no surprise factor to a FW snipe. It's a punish tool and that's it. What Zelda could really use is an approach/mobility tool which is why it should lose its kill potential in place of low endlag. 41 frame reappear? Fine by my if the endlag is 12-15 frames. Honestly, even this isn't enough to make the gimmick of the move less gimmicky because a 41 frame reappear is ludicrous. I don't know any Zelda main that thinks 41 frames is too short to decide what direction to angle Zelda to get back to the ledge. We can aim it for recovery in 20 frames. Make the reappear come out on frame 25 or 30. It gets more of a surprise factor and the lesser endlag means we can followup from it making it a combo starter rather than yet another killing move (Honestly, Zelda doesn't need this many kill moves).

Imagine using FW to punish a projectile like Link's boomerang, doing 7% with it and popping him up into a Lkick for 27% or a nair if you're not feeling precise. Nothing else in the game works like this and would make Zelda truly unique. Sheik has a teleport whose startup and reappear both do damage and the startup can kill. Metaknight has a teleport that he can control opting for a kill option if he sees an opportunity for a punish or a great mobility tool to get around. Zelda would have the only teleport combo starter in the game and this kind of attack isn't unheard of in other fighting games. Mortal Kombat anyone? It still wouldn't be broken because Zelda still needs precision to get kills off of it (plus at higher percents, it would send the opponent to high to true combo into anything and she'd need an airdodge bait to get a kill but could still reliably followup kinda like ROB's dthrow) and the startup for the teleport would still take 11 frames meaning we can't use it to get out of combos. For that we'd have Nayru's Love. Moreover, it's not like 12-15 frames of endlag is even unpunishable. If the Zelda player is dumb and mindlessly tries to snipe her opponent (4 player ffa perhaps which I know Sakurai wants to balance the game around) she will still get punished with a plethora of moves whose startup is significantly less than 12 frames.

Din's Fire: I like JigglyZelda's idea. 10/10 would use.

Phantom: Endlag needs to be reduced on this and the charge time for it needs to be reduced as well. As of right now, it's slow, predictable, and useless. It needs to be a reliable wall/spacing tool allowing Zelda to actually camp. That along with a better ability to space against opponents (nair and NL changes) immediately bumps her up to mid tier.

The changes to phantom, din's, NL, nair, and jab make her mid tier. The change to FW make her high tier.

 

[DoctorDub]

Look, I want Din's to not put us into freefall so I can provide SOME kind of pressure to let me land for once. Teleporting doesn't cover landing because we lag a whole lot when we do that. It would be risky anyway, as it'd be a commitment and would open me up offstage. Would also allow a really nice B-Reverse without risking accidental death.
And JigglyZelda's idea for Dins is also really great. The ability to shield cancel the move would be a godsend, really. It'd actually allow the defensive character to play defensively. Who'd have thunk it?
I'd also make an argument for making the Phantom storable. Think of how Samus holds her charge beam.

I don't know if this breaks your first rule, but I don't think it's too drastic a change, but such a thing would mean a few changes to the properties of the move itself.

I think if it was made storable, then it should be locked at whatever state we charge it at. For example: We charge it for only a second and then shield cancel it. We cannot continue the charge, but instead need to let our currently stored phantom go before building a new one. This would force us to think about when it would be safe to charge us said move and not just make us Samus 2.0; just rolling and charging up ever so slightly each time while our opponent tries to chase after us on stage. Become an opportunist.
Also we shouldn't have characters without tethers grab us through our phantom like he's not even there. That sucks and shouldn't happen.

Naryu's love would be great if the aforementioned changes were made. A good combo breaker would boost Zelda up in the meta game really well. As long as it wouldn't be a free "GTFO" move for literally any situation, I like it.

Oh and get rid of Ftilt's dead zone. That'd be really nice. Here is where I want to suggest something odd though, but hear me out. I wouldn't want them to give the dead zone the full effect of the ftilt, no. I'd want it to be a sourspot. I think it'd be really good for jab locking, but then I dunno if it's even possible to hit a laid out opponent with the dead-zone. But I digress, the trade off would obviously be that accidentally hitting the sourspot mid match... well, we're all Zelda players. We know what happens next.

Spoiler

Also all this talk of frame-data is making me feel really out of place and stupid. I've not got a clue what any of this "KBG" and "IASA" lingo means and looking it up isn't really helping. RIP me.

 

[Zylach]

lol, the frame data and other stuff is for us data nerds. KBG is knockback growth which affects how knockback scales with the opponent's percent as opposed to BKB which is base knockback, the amount of knockback the opponent takes when at 0%, you're at 0% and no staling has been done. I can't really remember what IASA stands for but it's basically how fast you're able to act out of an attack which isn't directly related to endlag or landing lag. One good example I can think of is Roy's fair which has a ton of landing lag and some endlag but inputting an action at a particular point basically cancels the lag and, instead, inputs the command so Roy can fair and use his second jump almost immediately afterward making his fair quite safe.

Stuff like startup frames and FAF (First actionable frame) which basically tells you how much endlag a move has before you can shield are all frame data stuff saying how fast or slow a move is. I'm sure some other folks can explain it better. All that stuff is the tangible, numerical representation of what us players experience so people like me can look at it and see all the little details of the game which can help us make decisions. There are people that don't much care for looking at data and I applaud those people because I personally can't get better without seeing and understanding it.

 

[DoctorDub]

lol, the frame data and other stuff is for us data nerds. KBG is knockback growth which affects how knockback scales with the opponent's percent as opposed to BKB which is base knockback, the amount of knockback the opponent takes when at 0%, you're at 0% and no staling has been done. I can't really remember what IASA stands for but it's basically how fast you're able to act out of an attack which isn't directly related to endlag or landing lag. One good example I can think of is Roy's fair which has a ton of landing lag and some endlag but inputting an action at a particular point basically cancels the lag and, instead, inputs the command so Roy can fair and use his second jump almost immediately afterward making his fair quite safe.

Stuff like startup frames and FAF (First actionable frame) which basically tells you how much endlag a move has before you can shield are all frame data stuff saying how fast or slow a move is. I'm sure some other folks can explain it better. All that stuff is the tangible, numerical representation of what us players experience so people like me can look at it and see all the little details of the game which can help us make decisions. There are people that don't much care for looking at data and I applaud those people because I personally can't get better without seeing and understanding it.

Yeah, nah. Even with this explanation, I don't really get it. I mean, I get the gist, but... Maybe it's because I don't understand what the use is of knowing what frame you can cancel things out is due to how impossible it seems to execute frame perfect actions. It sort of refuses to compute in my mind.

And with Knockback growth and base etc. How do you actually use these numerical values to determine what happens in game? Like, if the KBG for example is something like 20, what on earth does that even mean? Same for base? How do you figure out what said values even translate to? Are you able to just see these numbers and picture it in your head? I don't get it. Also with size being "3.4" or whatever. I haven't the slightest in what the measuring units are or anything. Confusion.

I think it'd be useful to learn all this, as a lot of people will progress past me with this knowledge and I still want to be as good as I can. Maybe I'll get someone to teach me next time it's brought up...

 

[Zylach]

Personally, I look at everything relatively. So, I'll look at a move that I'm familiar with, understand what kind of knockback it does, see what number corresponds to it. Then, I'll see what other attacks are relative to that. Looking at KB, the numbers don't help very much in the middle of a game since KB is affected by so many factors like rage, whether the opponent is charging a smash attack, staling, etc. The numbers are especially helpful with sm4sh though because of the patches that Sakurai conveniently doesn't explain to us so evaluating those numbers and the changes that occur to them tell us what actually changed.

 

[Kyzon Xin]

I only want one thing. to be able to pocket a Phantom Charge.

 

[frest123]

Make Zelda's FW always have the amount of lag she has when she edge cancels it. If they want to butcher the KB on it, please do. In fact, make the KB so low that it combos! Haha. I would request the shield stun remain though. This would allow Zelda to pressure shields and possibly break them with a lightning kick due to the reduced lag but maintained shield pressure. This would not be broken because Zelda needs to reappear close to someone to get max shield stun and this would equate to her having a harder time following up with a lightning kick.

Since this change basically kills the Zeldavator and all uses of the first hit, why not make the first hit into a windbox like FW Squall? I mean it's Farore's WIND right?

Note: Making the first hit have a windbox does not make FW Squall useless... Maybe they could tweak that to have more range and more windbox throughout the whole move? But whatever, who cares about Zelda's customs anyway?

 

[Novarante]

As much as it would suck having to relearn Zelda again (I'm probably not as good as most people on here) I agree with pretty much everything Zylach said. The ability to teleport as a combo starter sounds freaking amazing. I also really like the idea of holding your charge of Phantom and not being able to continue charging it once you cancel it early. This topic rules.

 

[ZombieBran]

I only want one thing. to be able to pocket a Phantom Charge.

This would be the biggest buff. It would vastly improve Zelda's defense and give her a constant well ranged threat.

I don't expect it in a patch, sadly. afaik no move has ever been that changed in a patch.
Maybe in SSBNX!

 

[SanAntonioSmasher]

Remove shiek from game. Have Zelda's down B transform into shiek. Give it a timer or something so you can be shiek for like half the time.

Fixes 2 characters, and yes I'm being serious. This game needs at least 1 character that can transform anyways.

 

[Darktundra]

I hope Sakurai and his team fixes Zelda's jab. It's frustrating when someone falls out or doesn't receive the last hit. They could buff the last hit to around 2.5-3% that would be nice. Also make jabs hit box larger above and below her.
If her jab is moved down to frame 5 like Roy's ( not the koopling ) and had an IASA of 18, man that's scary.

Dash attack
Frames 6-7, 8-10
IASA 39
Damage 12%/9% early 6% late
Zelda's dash attack has very little active frames compared to other characters.
What it lacks in duration is compensated in both speed and power. Despite its pros, Zelda's dash attack is horrible for her moveset because she has no safe moves to protect her after the move.
Changes that would be better
Remove 6% hitbox and make it 12%/9%
Increase sourspot duration to frame 14
Make sweetspot hitbox larger
Remove sourspots from beginning of dash attack.

F-tilt
Frame 12-13
IASA 40
Damage 12%/10% sourspots
F-tilt is the go to move when you staled f-smash bad. Its has great horizontal knockback and KO potential at the edge of the stage. While the move is nice, I believe the end lag is absurd for the time it takes to come out.
Changes to be made
Remove the blindspot, I'm pretty sure that Sakurai's playtesters would notice this.
Move IASA down to 32, I justify this claim by looking at the FE character F-tilts. Marth's and Roy's f-tilts comes out frame 8-10/11
Roy's IASA is 32 and Marth's IASA is 36.
Not only do they act sooner, they end sooner and have more kill potential.
Make f-tilt frame 9
Increase disjointed hitbox very slightly
Make arm intangible

U-tilt
Frame 7-18
IASA 33
Damage 7.2%
Nice move but needs more uses in meta.
Changes to be made
Increase from 7.2%-> 9%
Decrease base knockback and increase knockback growth
Increase priority
Increase range by .5
Uses: Juggling, racking up damage, and anti-air.
Inspiration: Fox's u-tilt

D-tilt
Frames 5-11
IASA 25
Damage 4.5%
Great move possibly her best move but far from effective.
Changes to be made
Damage from 4.5%-> 5.5%
Decrease knockback growth and increase base knockback
IASA 22
Uses: damage racker, combo starter, bait opponent.

F-smash is balanced because to can get a ko but you can also put yourself in danger. It's a dual edge axe and one should know what they are risking when using it.
Changes to be made
No move falling out of it point blank

Up smash
Frames 9 12 15 18 25 27 29 32
IASA 64
Damage 15.4% total
Recently got buffed in power and size
Its slightly more powerful than Brawl's in terms of base knockback and knockback growth. Not much to change.
Changes to made
Increase vertical range on frame 9 and 25 so shorter characters have to crouch to avoid the move.

Down smash
Frames 5-6 and 13-14
IASA 41
Damage 12% front 10% back
I already ranted about this move once.
Changes to be made
Frame 5-6,13-14-> 3-4,11-12
Increase knockback growth
IASA 39
There are moves that comes out frame 3 does 12% and KO opponents, zss up tilttilt and lil' mac's forward tilt.
Uses: get off move, don't try to shield grab move.

 

[BJN39]

Uh @ Darktundra maybe I should've brought it up sooner, but double (or multi) posting is technically against the rules of SWF. If you'd like to do another move before another user has posted the edit function is there at the bottom of any of your posts, and very handy for this. I didn't bring it up initially because technically double post post reservations after the first post aren't breaking that rule...

I'll just merge these...

 

[Darktundra]

Uh @ Darktundra maybe I should've brought it up sooner, but double (or multi) posting is technically against the rules of SWF. If you'd like to do another move before another user has posted the edit function is there at the bottom of any of your posts, and very handy for this. I didn't bring it up initially because technically double post post reservations after the first post aren't breaking that rule...

I'll just merge these...

Ok

 

[JigglyZelda003]

the only thing jab really needs is to reconfigure the percents on the hitboxes. Either make it one hit for 6%, or up the individual hitbox damage from 2-4. Its rare for all 3 hitboxes to connect anyway so if someone happens to take 12% from Zelda's jab they shouldn't have ran into it. I would also like if the last hitbox got a size increase to better stuff aerial approaches though.

 

[BJN39]

the only thing jab really needs is to reconfigure the percents on the hitboxes. Either make it one hit for 6%, or up the individual hitbox damage from 2-4. Its rare for all 3 hitboxes to connect anyway so if someone happens to take 12% from Zelda's jab they shouldn't have ran into it. I would also like if the last hitbox got a size increase to better stuff aerial approaches though.

Or they could just correct the multi-hits issue instead of buffing something that isn't working. Judging from their patch track record (1.0.6, Fsmash corrected. 1.0.8, Usmash corrected.) it's not too far off from possible.

I was actually thinking about that recently, and it really wouldn't be too hard to remedy and do so in Sakurai's style of patching. :3

Jab
    all looping hitboxes
        sdi x1.0 -> x0.5
    looping hitbox 1
        wkb 30 -> 24
    looping hitbox 2
        angle 80 -> 92
        size 4.0 -> 4.5
    final hitbox 0
        size 6.0 -> 6.5

First there's a slightly arbitrary, but why not since it improves the connecting capability slightly SDI halving.

Next a slight reduction of the WKB on the outermost Sakurai angle loop hitbox. Sometimes this particular hitbox knocks too far and is a big contributor to it whiffing either hit 2 or both the other hits. The number was sort of arbitrary but the point is that it was lowered a little.

The outermost loop hitbox has its angle brought to not-at-all outwards hitting, and done matching the designs of lots of other Jabs. An angle of 92 would be enough to at least prevent it dropping characters if only the very top of the outermost hitbox connects.

Negligible size increases to the outermost hitboxes for further help connecting slightly. This was my personal touch also since it very very slightly increases the range

That way the move will connect and be useable as a combo tool at low percents reliably. The SDI reduction cod technically be dropped without ruining these changes, but why not ave it? If they have it why not it help odder multi hits like jab?

Instead of buffing a broken design, why not fix it? :3

 

[Macchiato]

Very few tweaks would make her so much better

Fair-Bair: Give the Sourspot more knock back and damage so it actually does something, kinda like Palutenas fair do she would have an approach. Also make it SHAC

Din's Fire: Give it a traveling hitbox so people can't just run through it.

Nair: Give it 11% on both sides or even better make it do 14% in the front and 11% in the back. For a move with 19 frames of landing lag, it needs better reward or maybe 12 frames of landing lag.

I feel like that would help her so much already.

 

[Darktundra]

Very few tweaks would make her so much better

Fair-Bair: Give the Sourspot more knock back and damage so it actually does something, kinda like Palutenas fair do she would have an approach. Also make it SHAC

Din's Fire: Give it a traveling hitbox so people can't just run through it.

Nair: Give it 11% on both sides or even better make it do 14% in the front and 11% in the back. For a move with 19 frames of landing lag, it needs better reward or maybe 12 frames of landing lag.

I feel like that would help her so much already.

I bet money they will decrease the landing lag in August

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

We'll Sakurai thought he could make zelda more balanced by making her lightning kick do 20% instead of 21%, because Sakurai logic.

 

[BJN39]

We'll Sakurai thought he could make zelda more balanced by making her lightning kick do 20% instead of 21%, because Sakurai logic.

Actually, her sweet-spot can do 21% in smash 4. It only ever did 21% in Brawl due to the fresh move mechanic, where the first time a move is landed, it does a tiny bit more damage. This mechanic has carried over into smash 4, so landing a sweet-spot in non-training, on the first use of LK should award you 21% in SSB4 as well.

The move's base damage on the sweet-spot, in all three smash iterations with Zelda, is 20%.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

I got smash 4 on 3ds and wii u at launch. And I have played zelda as a secondary for a while now. I have landed more then enough lightning kicks to notice the nerf. It has been nerfed since at least since Lucas, ryu and Roy were made available.

 

[BJN39]

I got smash 4 on 3ds and wii u at launch. And I have played zelda as a secondary for a while now. I have landed more then enough lightning kicks to notice the nerf. It has been nerfed since at least since Lucas, ryu and Roy were made available.

No buffs or nerfs or changes have been made to lightning kicks in patches in smash 4. We literally have the data files to back that up.

Also, I went into my 3DS just now,

Went to a vs mode match vs a CPU bowser,

Landed a LK sweet-spot on the first usage,

It did 21%.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

I don't understand this anymore, I think either zelda was nerfed or the way moves stale was changed, because before the updates zelda could do 63% with any combination of 3 forward or back airs.

 

[PUK]

I don't understand this anymore, I think either zelda was nerfed or the way moves stale was changed, because before the updates zelda could do 63% with any combination of 3 forward or back airs.

That's impossible unless against Bowser jr., shulk, or palutena
The way moves stale didn't change since the beginning of smash 4.
Zelda Fair and Bair didn't change at least since 1.0.6.

 

[Macchiato]

I don't understand this anymore, I think either zelda was nerfed or the way moves stale was changed, because before the updates zelda could do 63% with any combination of 3 forward or back airs.

Training mode is different than actually matchs fyi

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

I have still noticed a change, could you explain how it is impossible unless on bowser jr, shulk, or palutena, do they take more damage or something.

I did the 3 forward airs in a row in a match against a lvl9 CPU before the updates started making them better.