What would brawl be like with air blocking?

[Pikaville]

Another thread gave me this idea.What would it be like of you could "block" in the air as well as airdodging?

I mean it might make combo's less effective,and maybe even mess up the whole combat system altogether but,with this new "expanded aerial combat" may be air blocking could be a good idea.It could open up a whole new level of depth and advance techs to the game.Im still kinda undecided.

Discuss.

 

[Mr.GAW]

Eh. It might happen, but I would prefer sticking with airdodging.

 

[Hoboman725]

I think that if this were implemented it would remove the need for airdodging. Airblocking sounds like it would be to effective to really work, and keep the game balanced, but it would be pretty cool.

 

[Andromeda]

The game would be a whole lot easier!

 

[Superstar]

But to do that, we would have to free up a button, and I wouldn't like the prospect of that.

I would prefer that they kept airdodging, but removed the ending "paralysis", to actually make it at least slightly useful. Of course, one per jump. Just my suggestion though.

 

[Zink]

IMO airdodging is fine, because it's
attacks>grabs
grabs>sheilds
sheilds>attacks
and airdodging is a good enough sheild. The invul frames are balanced by the loss of movement.

 

[Feryx]

might work if they added air grabs too, to counter it. Balancing all that would be difficult though.

 

[WaterTails]

Wouldn't they need to slow the falling speeds then? Or would the shield just have no lag in the air?

 

[RVD_fan]

But there'll probably be a fair bit of lag online, which would make it pretty tricky to pull of effectivley

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

NO WAY!

The whole point of being in the air is that it's a double edged sword!
You can pull of some sweet air moves like spikes, but at the same time you're also
vulnerable! Putting in air shielding will break the game and ruin the entertainment of combo videos!

 

[FreakoFreako]

I agree.. That's why I also think Air Dodge should still have that state where you can't do anything.

 

[Burning Lava]

Interesting thought. I don't know... it probably would just mess everything up. Then again, people shield bubbling in the air and getting smacked and juggled around could be interesting. Who knows.

Something related I've been thinking about for sometime is air grabs, and they could potentially be pretty awesome. All that would need to happen is that favor be given to aerial attacks over aerial grabs, so people don't spam grabs in the air and make for boring throw fests. One cool thing about air grabs would be that whatever direction you throw in the air, you get propelled (at least a little) in the opposite direction. Imagine coming back to the stage and grabbing your edge guarding opponent and throwing him out into the abyss, while propelling yourself to safety in the opposite direction.

Eh, not necessary, but could be fun if they balance it right.

 

[Adi]

Yeah I agree, it's definetely a better idea to not implement something like that

 

[Time/SpaceMage]

When I first saw this mention of air blocking, I thought of allowing aerial attacks to "clank". I'm not sure how well that would work though, and while thinking about it my mind started to wander and I remembered the concept of "super armor" on the heavier characters. I expect that in midair it would work like Yoshi's double jump (but for other heavy chars) and this resistance to damage is similar in concept to a shield. I think it would help with balance since they wouldn't be interrupted as easily by the fast chars like Sheik, especially on recovery.

 

[fryd]

I like the idea of air blocking. I think it would be cool if the effectivness of the airblock depended on your DI. If your DI is dead on maybe the other person would be stunned and open for a cool combo. I'm not sure it would work but I have faith in Nintendo. Also they wouldn't need another button cause some of the buttons do the same thing. Maybe if your DI way off during the block you would be imobilized.

 

[dizzy]

Adding an air shield could do really good things for Brawl's defensive game, but you'd have to make sure you balance it on the offensive end as well.

For example, if you just take SSBM and randomly toss in an air shield, you basically give every character an all-purpose flying god-block, which would be incredibly lame for all sorts of reasons. With the addition of the air shield, there would also have to be some way to penetrate the air shield, such as an air grab. Whether or not we'd want air grabs in SSBB is another discussion altogether.

Also, even if the air shield could be countered by some kind of air grab or other unblockable attack, it would still be an all-purpose mobile shield. That's huge, because unless your name is Luigi or the Iceez or some such thing, you can't move while you're in a ground shield. A mobile aerial shield would definitely be capable of ruining all sorts of juggles and giving new and potentially broken meanings to "Wall of Pain," which wouldn't necessarily be fun either. So the mobility of the air shield needs to come at some sort of price. For instance, an air shield should shrink faster, suffer larger shield stun, have greater shield knockback, or have less counterattacking options than the ground shield.

If I were designing Brawl, Brawl would be a very strange game indeed... but anyway. In my twisted vision of Brawl that would include the air shield, the air shield would figuratively transform a character into a giant beachball. Basically, you would take no damage from attacks, but you would still suffer significant (if reduced) knockback, meaning that the opponent could kick your air-bubbly shield *** about the stage--or even off of it--if you don't block intelligently. This creates some interesting juggling and edgeguarding scenarios, because suddenly you have the option to take no damage, but you have to decide whether it's worth giving the opponent so much control over your location onstage. Add in the risk of getting air grabbed and thrown off would only add to the fun.

... My head hurts a little, but now that I think about it, I think an air shield could work really well.

 

[Sensai]

Interesting idea....haha.

I assume you can only do the air-shield if you have control of your character. Does it count as a jump? How does one perform it?

Anyways, I don't see it doing too much...I see it possibly being used to psyche an opponent out, but other then that...when would you use it?

 

[Burning Lava]

Once again, hello Sensai! Here to post right after you once again. (WTH?)

Dizzy: Yeah, I see where you're going with that stuff, and it's sort of like I was saying about getting your shield bubble smacked around. "Work really well"? Well, maybe. It would be really hard for them to balance such a drastic new technique, that it might not actually be cool until the NEXT Smash Bros, but I agree that it has potential to work. Do we really even care, or want it? Eh, not really, but yeah it's cool to kick these ideas around. Smash is already (even to this day) such an innovative fighter, that adding some super ridiculous craziness like that would both make sense, and not be necessary. I don't know where I'm going with this anymore. Basically I think you got some good ideas, and I'm just commenting on them without a strong opinion. Forgive me I'm tired. Must bed. Peace in the Middle East.

 

[dizzy]

"Work really well"? Well, maybe. It would be really hard for them to balance such a drastic new technique, that it might not actually be cool until the NEXT Smash Bros, but I agree that it has potential to work..

Doesn't that kind of apply to any kind of drastic and new technique? Besides, SSBB isn't going to be extremely well balanced no matter what we do, so we might as well create some new options. Intelligently, of course.

In case anybody hasn't noticed, I don't agree with the "don't-fix-what-ain't-broken" attitude as far as SSBB is concerned. Even SSBM's strongest aspects are a far cry from perfection.

 

[Infil]

dizzy, you understand the general metagame of fighters. I think your discussion at the top of this page is quite valid and interesting conjecture.

I'm not sure I agree with changing airdodging, as was earlier suggested, to once per jump or just removing paralysis. Once per jump would effectively eliminate paralysis before the second jump has been used (otherwise, how will you jump?), which could create a host of problems. Not to mention, the Jiggly metagame would be greatly expanded; the wall of pain could be a wall of invincibility. Additionally, once per jump would give every character extra distance for their recovery. I just don't see this being a great idea. I think airdodging, as it is, is based on solid fighter design in terms of balancing positives and negatives, especially considering that you often have a better option that airdodging unless you're in a spot where the paralysis isn't too bad anyway.

What they SHOULD do, though, is give Falcon a proper ledge grab. I don't know why I brought that up here, but I'm bitter about it. If my head is above the ledge, I should be grabbing that sucker.

In agreement with dizzy, I do not support the "don't fix what isn't broken" mentality. Fighting games create diversity, excitement, and generate interest simply by changing what works in other fighters... even within the same franchise. Melee compared to SSB64 is such a vastly different game, yet they are both equally playable on a competitive scale. Can you imagine if the designers never tried anything new for Melee's engine? What features will we be discussing in a year that are different from Melee, but feel right at home in the Smash universe when Brawl is released? In games, and especially fighters, intelligent change is good.

 

[ChrisLionheart]

even though it would be a cool concept, i don't think air blocking would be such a good idea. It would encourage turtling a whole lot more. One good example of new implementation of air blocking would be the shift from SF2 to SF alpha. The alpha series introduced air blocking where one player could last a significant amount of time by just backjumping and holding back for the air block. SSBB would start to become really slow and would not be the fast and frantic SSBM we know today.

I thought of air blocking before too... I think deeper aerial attacks would be more exciting!

 

[Faith]

I'd rather see a counter attack move for in the air then a block. Like when somebody wants to dair you, you press a button and you can counter it with some timing needed ofcourse.

 

[Zodiac]

Maybe it would be that instead of just full on blocking the attack you could be sent flying only 75% of the distance flying you normally would and take half the damage, this way it wouldnt totally mess up combos, add to this airdgrabbin and....

 

[Burning Lava]

Doesn't that kind of apply to any kind of drastic and new technique? Besides, SSBB isn't going to be extremely well balanced no matter what we do, so we might as well create some new options. Intelligently, of course.

In case anybody hasn't noticed, I don't agree with the "don't-fix-what-ain't-broken" attitude as far as SSBB is concerned. Even SSBM's strongest aspects are a far cry from perfection.

You'll get no argument from me there. I hope you weren't assuming that I'M one of the people with that kind of attitude. I really DO want a new game that isn't just a tweaked Melee. I've been posting crazy ideas for cooperative multi-player/side scrolling adventure stuff, and stuff like air grabs, as well as a weird "wonder around vast side scrolling levels online with lot's of other people." Adding new mechanics to the fighting is something that is almost a MUST for Smash to stay innovative. Totally agreed. I hope I didn't come off sounding like "unorthodox moves will ruin Brawl." I was just kind of commenting on... stuff.

 

[Superstar]

I'm not sure I agree with changing airdodging, as was earlier suggested, to once per jump or just removing paralysis. Once per jump would effectively eliminate paralysis before the second jump has been used (otherwise, how will you jump?), which could create a host of problems. Not to mention, the Jiggly metagame would be greatly expanded; the wall of pain could be a wall of invincibility. Additionally, once per jump would give every character extra distance for their recovery. I just don't see this being a great idea. I think airdodging, as it is, is based on solid fighter design in terms of balancing positives and negatives, especially considering that you often have a better option that airdodging unless you're in a spot where the paralysis isn't too bad anyway.
.

Oops, I worded it wrong. I meant once per jump CYCLE, so it would not be too powerful. I never use airdodges except for wavedash, as it makes you extremely vulnerable, and you are better off not using it unless you are close to the ground. It would also be used to try to avoid edgeguarding, using it to dodge and punish, that stuff. In once per jump cycle, its not as useful as you said for Jigglypuff, although looking at it, it would benefit her recovery to really strong amounts. I don't mean every time she jumps, she gets an airdodge, that would be extremely scary.

About the thing of balancing the airdodge, the effect of the paralysis is so great, it almost completely negates it, I don't know much, but to me at least, it makes the airdodge almost useless [cept for wavedash].

Of course, unparalyzed airdodges is not something I support wholeheartedly, just something I thought, and I would not care if it appeared in Brawl or not. The downside would be that aerial attacks are given less priority to stop occurences like juggling, so I don't even know if I WANT unparalyzed airdodges. It would also destroy Pikachu's thunderfilps [and the whole idea of thunder], because you could not be punished as easily if you airdodge it.

 

[Burning Lava]

What they SHOULD do, though, is give Falcon a proper ledge grab. I don't know why I brought that up here, but I'm bitter about it. If my head is above the ledge, I should be grabbing that sucker.

Haha, no joke man.

I thought of air blocking before too... I think deeper aerial attacks would be more exciting!

And not just aerial, but overall deeper fighting. Like, I know this is vague, but some way to make the fighting more like real fighting... and then throw something totally wacky in there to spice it up. Maybe for a bit more depth, give more characters high, mid, and low attacks (ground) so that you can try to do the same move to to "clank" with them. Yeah, I know, bad example, but something that will encourage close range battle back and forth not just people taking turns combo-ing or whatever. Instead of jumping on my crappy ideas, just help me expand them! What if people could every once in a while get locked together (two people trying to grab at the same exact time?) and they have to do some kind of specific struggling attacks to inflict damage, and avoid damage at the same time. Like the have to do a "knee, gut, or face" attack while in this locked grab struggle. Yes, this would suck to have too much of, but it would be hard to grab at the same exact frame, so this would only happen once in a while. That's all I got for now.

 

[Johnknight1]

I am for it, but only if it balances perfectly! You should probably only be able to use this once per jump cycle, and would be a great new feature to the game. But if done wrong it could be used the whole drop down, and making you pratically invincible. Or if too weak it only blocks like for 1/2 a second. I say it should last up to like 1 or 2 seconds, and you should still be air dodging. If it's in SSBB, I'll still probably do air dodging, but c'mon how cheap is it getting hit after doing a perfect air dodge!

Considering it Sakurai, I think he can pull it off nicely. Plus considering Brawl will probably have a lot better air combat, and have a better air combat system, I wouldn't be surpirised to see it in Brawl. I want it done right, or not at all!

Want a good idea about this? Read Burning Lava's post right above mine as to how the air combat would work! ^^^^ Deeper fighting, especially air fighting, grabs, wall jumps, slowing down game speed, counters, and counter-grabs need the most work! I expect all of these will be heavily improved, as well as the game all around! I have faith in Sakurai and his team!

 

[Vampirekain]

I would actually love airdodging cause it might be a bit hard to master at first (cause as easy it may sounds it may have to do something with slightly pushing a button or i dont know what) but it could elevate the gaming speed and tactics to a new level of excitement :D

 

[TastelessRamen]

even though it would be a cool concept, i don't think air blocking would be such a good idea. It would encourage turtling a whole lot more. One good example of new implementation of air blocking would be the shift from SF2 to SF alpha. The alpha series introduced air blocking where one player could last a significant amount of time by just backjumping and holding back for the air block. SSBB would start to become really slow and would not be the fast and frantic SSBM we know today.

I thought of air blocking before too... I think deeper aerial attacks would be more exciting!

Imma have to disagree, if someone tried to turtle in the fashion that you just described they would be knocked very far due to the propsed "beach-ball" air blocking scenario, so if you attempted to turtle by back jumping and blocking you'd find yourself off of the stage and in a vulnerable position very quickly.

Many people would have said that adding in air dodges in melee was a mistake, because they would unbalance the game from the perspective of original smash. However, it's pretty obvious now that that was the right decision.

Something like an air shield is really not any more game altering than air dodges were, so it isn't wrong just because it's new.

 

[PDOT]

Another thread gave me this idea.What would it be like of you could "block" in the air as well as airdodging?

I mean it might make combo's less effective,and maybe even mess up the whole combat system altogether but,with this new "expanded aerial combat" may be air blocking could be a good idea.It could open up a whole new level of depth and advance techs to the game.Im still kinda undecided.

Discuss.

Like Streetfighter..

 

[toasty4you]

Air Blocking would be great, but we would need something to make it a whole lot different then Air Dodging. The move would probably take longer to execute, and the player could grab the attacker and throw him/her/it away therefore causing minimum damage.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

How can you enhance aerial combat by negating it?

I have to say no to this.It can potentially break the physics engine.

 

[dizzy]

How can you enhance aerial combat by negating it?

Introducing an air shield would only create a new way to defend against aerial attacks. It's certainly not the same as negating them. Besides, who says that aerial defensive options aren't part of aerial combat?

I have to say no to this.It can potentially break the physics engine.

Are you kidding? "Break the physics engine?" It's not going to cause the game to crash, silly.

Sure, an air shield COULD throw off the balance between offense and defense in the game. But the same thing might have been said about air dodging, which turned out just fine. Of course, the developers would have to be careful when making such a major addition, but unless they're completely stupid, they're not going to let the air shield become some sort of universal flying god-block. Don't be so quick to dismiss new ideas.

 

[Hydde]

What about implementing air blocking but this way:

it works lets say... with the Z button...... and when you are hitted in the air and you block, you receive a knockback. In this way, if you are returning to stage and block, you will be forced to go further from the stage. On stage the block will send you farther and continue playing.

With this, the air dodge will still be usefull since you can dodge an attack and still land on stage, and the block will be more usefull SOMETIMES on stage than the dodge

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Introducing an air shield would only create a new way to defend against aerial attacks. It's certainly not the same as negating them. Besides, who says that aerial defensive options aren't part of aerial combat?

Are you kidding? "Break the physics engine?" It's not going to cause the game to crash, silly.

Sure, an air shield COULD throw off the balance between offense and defense in the game. But the same thing might have been said about air dodging, which turned out just fine. Of course, the developers would have to be careful when making such a major addition, but unless they're completely stupid, they're not going to let the air shield become some sort of universal flying god-block. Don't be so quick to dismiss new ideas.

When I say that,I mean that implementing better aerial physics and attacks can easily be negated just simply blocking in the air,which could make it more difficult to hit your opponent.If you hit your opponent,and he/she DI's away,the ability to catch the opponent and combo him will be negated,and even if you manage to attack him/her,they will be able to block in the air,then counter attack..But then again,I am contradicting myself,because this can further enhance the combat system.

My only concern is for the falling physics would work.Would it be like Foxes reflector?Who knows.But i'm preety sure that such an idea can be implemented.After all..the development team consist of many graphics design professionals.

=D

 

[PrinnyFlute]

Well, they could make it work perfectly if they wanted to, and make it fun. We're talking about cream-of-the-crop professionals here. Personally speaking, though, I think taking the emphasis away from always having to move in the air would slow air combat down, which is something I'm not crazy about.

 

[ImDaTroof]

I think it would suck, if someone air blocked you wouldn't be able to do anything to them.

Unless there was an air grab, this would also suck.

Also those two moves would be overused and nothing would be able to be done about it.

 

[Johnknight1]

I think Sakurai could do it rite, plus how annoying is i after using your final jump, and you can't defend yourself? It's cheap as hell, plus could add new dynamics to the series. Since SSBB is probably more airborn, it will probably become more and more of a question and the game is further developed, if not already added. I find it to be a freat question and probably a great new adition, but must have a 1 or 2 time use limit (or 2-3 second limit).

Overall it just has to be perfectly balnced, and be a perfect balance that will hopefully be a perfect or nearly perfected balanced SSBB! I don't think air grabs should be includedm but they should only block 2 attacks at most, and has to have a balance that fits the game perfectly. Otherwise, no!

 

[Banks]

air blocking would be completely new so there is no way to know what it would be like, but i doubt theyll include it.

 

[Burning Lava]

air blocking would be completely new so there is no way to know what it would be like, but i doubt theyll include it.

That sums it up well enough. Also, just a reminder for everyone... It's obvious that you should have your right to suggest an idea, but when doing so, expect feedback and don't be down on someone for saying they don't think it would work very well (if said person is polite and gives reasons) because they also have the right to suggest NOT having certain moves/techniques. Just a little something I saw going on, and I thought I'd bring it up.