What was the balance philosophy behind Mewtwo? Nothing makes sense.

[Goodstyle_4]

He's incredibly light, yet he has a large body, slow to average speed, and average strength attacks. He's a big target, he's very floaty, and nothing about his moveset justifies all these drawbacks.

Usually with a character you have speed, size, weight, and strength being proportional to each other, but with Mewtwo the balance is screwed up in the worst way. I'm starting to think they Sakurai didn't test him out as much as he should have, because based on the facts right now, it really doesn't seem to be clicking with me.

Maybe his moveset all comes together and he's actually amazing, but just looking at the facts (his light weight, his floatiness, his mediocre strength/speed), he's really confusing.

 

[FooltheFlames]

They just assumed everyone wanted him back so much becuz he was enjoyed as a fighter so much in Melee, so they went the safe (Lazy?) route and kept him mainly unchanged.
I never liked how he was one of the biggest targets but one of the lightest either, but felt his recover options kinda made up for this. And now with the new ledge options, he can virtually never be gimped in his recovery!
But I really do hope he that his weight is increased somewhat, while at the same time he retains his floatyness~

 

[Conn1496]

He's the same as he was in Melee. He was floaty and big back then and now because that's Mewtwo for you in a nutshell. Psychic types, yo.

I'm starting to play Mewtwo and I don't see how he's so weak at all, really. Kills at 90%, a good spacing game and a decent combo and pressure game... His fully charged shadow ball deals 25%. 25%! You barely have to charge it for it to start reaching a respectable 10%, too. F-air does 13%, D-air does 14%. You can side-B to F-air for 22% almost guaranteed (Atleast I've never had anyone DI or anything out of it.).

He seems really good to me. -and while it's true, his defense is poor, I feel that he's a character who's defensive is based on his movement and spacing. D-tilt is a good move to space and set-up, and it comes out relatively fast, too... I feel Mewtwo is definately not a character for everyone, but he definately has the tools for the job.

That's just my two cents on it.

 

[Noso]

It's been said before but.. It's day one, the world wasn't discovered in one day, and the entirety of a character won't be either.

He is a fun character and a change up, I haven't touched FG with him yet, just learning what he can and can't do against the cpu before I test my luck with him.

Lifes about the journey, not the destination =)

 

[CryoGX]

It's literally the first day. I personally wouldn't go as far as to find conclusions with its balance within a couple of hours. This version of Mewtwo seems like it'll make all of those qualities that wouldn't seem to work well together, well, work well together.

For conclusions either way, though, we'll still need more time.

My opinion of Mewtwo from today alone is that it's not weak, nor does it seem to have any glaring exploits or is broken. However, this is literally from a few hours of play so I could be dead wrong.

 

[Khao]

I suck with Mewtwo, so I might not be the best one to talk about him, but he feels like a glass cannon, basically.

He hits hard, and most of his moves have ****ing great range, and I've already seen some pretty darn impressive true combos from him.

But he's both easy to hit, and easy to kill.

 

[Bittersweet]

Keep in mind that there's probably a bit more work put into making him accurate than to making him balanced. He's a Legendary Pokemon, so like his source material, he has incredible power, and being Special-oriented reflects his great range in Smash, but being a levitating Psychic, he's very light.

 

[PK Gaming]

Re: You people saying it's the first day

Perhaps, but most of the points that the OP covered are incontrovertible facts, and they're indeed problematic. First day or not. He's absolutely not Melee bad, but I doubt he'll be a strong contender.

 

[greenluigiman2]

"average strength attacks" is not an incontrovertible fact. Mewtwo's attacks are very strong. He's a killer.

 

[itsaxelol]

"average strength attacks" is not an incontrovertible fact. Mewtwo's attacks are very strong. He's a killer.

theyre alright. considering how laggy and unsafe and lack of disjoints and mewtwo being the ****ing second lightest. its pretty bad in that sense

 

[zephyrnereus]

I personally feel that mewtwo's power in smash attacks rivals that of little mac, but unlike him he has a lot of lag.

he's got an amazing jab game too, very similar to palutena's. and the multi hit? it's massive and can really rack up the damage early on.

I feel that just the jab disable combo he has on certain characters is enough to bring him to the mid tiers. he's amazing against medium and large opponents.

 

[Roll-Spamming-Peasant]

As someone who has a pretty mean Jigglypuff in Smash4, Mewtwo's weight is manageable, If you have good DI skills, you'd be really surprised at what these light characters can survive, especially with the recovery mechanics Smash 4 has brought on. When I was a kid (2001) Mewtwo was my only main, so maybe I'm just starry eye'd that the ONE character I have muscle memory for, even 14 years later, feels SO good to me to have back.

 

[LRodC]

Mewtwo is a bit tough to get the hang of at first, but he is definitely not bad. He hits pretty damn hard, has excellent range, and is excellent at forcing approaches. He's not even that tall either, he's around the same height as Zelda and Sheik, not someone like Rosalina.

The only real problem I see with him is the weight, which is incredibly low. He definitely fits the glass cannon archetype pretty well and it seems like this was the developers' intention. I would've made him around fourth or fifth lightest instead of second, but oh well. It's weird that Kirby of all characters outweighs him.

 

[Trifroze]

Mewtwo doesn't have kill power? I think he contends with Ganondorf, except Mewtwo has 4-5 realistic kill moves compared to like 15. He dies early but he kills his opponents just as early, and he should never get gimped while he should be gimping his opponents all the time. Teleport is a get out of jail card in many situations, his first jab combos into grab (and probably utilt and ftilt) at kill %s even on characters with 3 frame nairs like Yoshi, and Shadow Ball might just be the best projectile in the game. You can spam it much faster than Aura Sphere which is already a great neutral b, it travels faster and a longer distance and it kills way earlier unless you're talking 150% Lucario, and you can use it for recovery or shoot it at the opponent while retreating simultaneously because of its recoil. The only downsides are no hitbox and taking about half a second longer to fully charge (137 frames total), which aren't a big deal at all.

Mewtwo's problems will mainly be getting pressured by rushdown characters and being a bit too light. Honestly, they went too far with that but it still isn't a gamebreaker. You'd be surprised to see how little weight actually matters in this game when you start to look at it.

 

[Jrzfine]

In a lot of ways Mewtwo in Smash is a very accurate portrayal of how he played in the games: glass cannon. He has terrible defenses and dies easily, but is extremely potent offensively (and his psychic powers give him range as well). In Smash 'defenses' correspond to weight, and 'offense' translates to damage/knockback. So it only seems logical that they made mewtwo a lightweight killing machine. Like Trifroze said, "Shadow Ball might just be the best projectile in the game", Fair has the speed of Diddy's UpAir and the killing power of a smash attack, Side B BOTH reflects projectiles AND command grabs people, which can lead to followups. His tilts are great spacing tools, all of his smashes kill early, he has not one but TWO killthrows, and the second best recovery in the game. (sorry, but ) Mewtwo fits the bill as the resident glass cannon, and fits it well.

I really wish they would have given him more true combos to complete the offensive package but honestly that may be a bit overkill.

 

[Damianos]

Can someone explain to me why the hell he doesn't simply grab the damn ledge after his second jump while hugging the side of the stage? I can't tell you the last time I got falcon punched. Because of this insanely pointless function of his awkward second jump, I just slide right back onto the stage, waiting for a clean warlock, falcon, or KO punch to come along and destroy me.... This forces me to fight my own DI and be an easy read just to grab the ledge for 2 seconds of safety... His lightness doesn't help whatsoever. Sakurai clearly has no damn clue as to what he's doing.

 

[Timbers]

Can someone explain to me why the hell he doesn't simply grab the damn ledge after his second jump while hugging the side of the stage? I can't tell you the last time I got falcon punched. Because of this insanely pointless function of his awkward second jump, I just slide right back onto the stage, waiting for a clean warlock, falcon, or KO punch to come along and destroy me.... This forces me to fight my own DI and be an easy read just to grab the ledge for 2 seconds of safety... His lightness doesn't help whatsoever. Sakurai clearly has no damn clue as to what he's doing.

are you asking why his midair jump doesn't autosnap to the ledge? because no midair jumps do this.

 

[zephyrnereus]

use a fresh sideB instead of your double jump. if done correctly, you should be able to either hop over their heads or aim for them and drag them down. either that or use upB to autosnap to the ledge. just be careful not to use it too close

 

[Deleted member]

Fair, Dair, Shadow Ball (which is spammable without charge) Uthrow, Bthrow, Fsmash, Dsmash, Usmash (especially this one), are all kill moves that are very powerful and have setups in the form of Jab1, Disable, Down Throw (more read based, but still works), and on a few characters Confusion. He has an amazing second jump and great Up B that also regains stage control if your pressured by a thirsty opponent, and Confusion helps him recover, as well as [B-reversed] Shadow Ball at full charge. Mewtwo has a lot going for him in this game, but his worst match ups are speedy combo characters like my boy that take advantage of floatiness + lightweight and huge hurtbox.

 

[ZomBiehn]

He's been out one day and your all ready complaining? Wow, u kids need to stick to playing on your Xboxes and stop crying

 

[G-Guy]

Can someone explain to me why the hell he doesn't simply grab the damn ledge after his second jump while hugging the side of the stage? I can't tell you the last time I got falcon punched. Because of this insanely pointless function of his awkward second jump, I just slide right back onto the stage, waiting for a clean warlock, falcon, or KO punch to come along and destroy me.... This forces me to fight my own DI and be an easy read just to grab the ledge for 2 seconds of safety... His lightness doesn't help whatsoever. Sakurai clearly has no damn clue as to what he's doing.

if you are sliding up the wall anyways why not just up B? it ledge snaps and is an instant teleport. cannot go safer than that

 

[Goodstyle_4]

"average strength attacks" is not an incontrovertible fact. Mewtwo's attacks are very strong. He's a killer.

He's average overall. The actually percent damage he does is shockingly low and his fsmash and dsmash knock back is OK but nothing special, especially in the face of how slow/laggy those moves are.

Sure he has kill throws, but they pale in comparison to Ness, and his grab range is abysmal, and his fair does kill before most, but its tiny hitbox makes it difficult to connect, and don't even get me started on setting up a Shadow Ball. Also for the love of God, his jab does NOT "combo into" his throw. The guy who said that is wrong wrong wrong.

Mewtwo has some neat kill moves (like his low range and laggy usmash), but I think you guys are waaaay over selling it. I even read that you think his strength is comparable to Ganondorf? Please.

I even wrote in the OP that everything might come together to make a good move set, but at surface value and by just looking at the facts, nothing that went into designing him makes any sense.

PS: Mewtwo is heavier and bulkier than Charizard is in Pokemon, how is making him a glass cannon (more of a glass BB gun IMO) accurate to his character?

 

[Hitzel]

In a lot of ways Mewtwo in Smash is a very accurate portrayal of how he played in the games: glass cannon. He has terrible defenses and dies easily.

I just want to point out that this is untrue. Mewtwo has good defensive stats:

Average stat for fully evolved pokemon > Mewtwo's stat:

HP:
80 > 106

Defense:
83 > 90

Special Defense:
83 > 90

Sources:
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Stats
http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/mewtwo

While Psychic isn't the best defensive typing, it does resist fighting, and that above-average defense is paired with godlike speed and attacking stats. Mewtwo is banned from standard competitive play in Singles (OU) and Doubles (VGC) because he is a near-perfect attacker that's very difficult to KO, and that's before even considering his mega evolutions.

So yeah, if we're going by source material here, Mewtwo is not a glass cannon. Not that it's THAT important, though.

 

[Trunks159]

Yeah, in one day, you should be able ro see if theyre viable imo. Simply look at his stats. With his poor speed, poor dmg, easily killable, and laggy moves, I dont think hes really good.

 

[LimitCrown]

Maybe this Mewtwo doesn't have high IVs/EVs for Defense. Also, in one of his trophies in Melee, it states that because he is levitating most of the time, he is launched very far.

I think that it is too early to judge how viable Mewtwo is.

 

[Quillion]

THREAD HOP:

The philosophy here is that Mewtwo's initial "reward" release is just a gamma test. The more dedicated fans who have both versions will test him out, and then when his normal release comes around, he'll be a lot more balanced then.

But yeah. Mewtwo needs some Project M and Melee SD Remix attributes: heavier, quicker moves, quicker movement, but I don't believe it needs to be huge changes.

 

[Hitzel]

Maybe this Mewtwo doesn't have high IVs/EVs for Defense. Also, in one of his trophies in Melee, it states that because he is levitating most of the time, he is launched very far.

I think that it is too early to judge how viable Mewtwo is.

Mewtwo guaranteed 4IV in gen 6. Sakurai clearly used Pokegen.

 

[LimitCrown]

Mewtwo guaranteed 4IV in gen 6. Sakurai clearly used Pokegen.

Actually, Pokemon in the Undiscovered egg group are guaranteed to have perfect IVs for three stats only.

 

[Hitzel]

Actually, Pokemon in the Undiscovered egg group are guaranteed to have perfect IVs for three stats only.

I guess I was getting good RNG then

 

[DavemanCozy]

Seems they kept him slow but gave him good range. All his moves got buffed in range from Melee, even Dair and jab received larger disjoints.

Teleport over rolling. I firmly think that Teleport is going to play a large role of Mewtwo's game onstage. Has less ending lag when you appear grounded with it than appearing in the air. It's faster than Zelda's Farores and Palutena's Warp, Mewtwo is invincible almost as soon as you activate it and all the way through until he appears.

It's punishable, but due to the flexibility you have with appearing, it takes a read for the opponent to guess where you show up to punish you.

I'm not about to write him off just yet. He has good range, Shadow Ball seems more meaty (capable of beating Aura Spheres), and Teleport has some interesting properties.

 

[megabbaut]

Side B Confusion beats out a lot of approaches, and stops things like Flare Blitz, Falcon Kick, Rollout, Spindash, and Quick Draw.

 

[simpleglitch]

Side B Confusion beats out a lot of approaches, and stops things like Flare Blitz, Falcon Kick, Rollout, Spindash, and Quick Draw.

Does it really? Can any of them act out of it (before mewtwo gets the chance to shield)?

 

[SexySaxLove]

He's incredibly light, yet he has a large body, slow to average speed, and average strength attacks. He's a big target, he's very floaty, and nothing about his moveset justifies all these drawbacks.

Usually with a character you have speed, size, weight, and strength being proportional to each other, but with Mewtwo the balance is screwed up in the worst way. I'm starting to think they Sakurai didn't test him out as much as he should have, because based on the facts right now, it really doesn't seem to be clicking with me.

Maybe his moveset all comes together and he's actually amazing, but just looking at the facts (his light weight, his floatiness, his mediocre strength/speed), he's really confusing.

Mewtwo I think is pretty buff. Yes he is big, yes he is floaty, and yes he's not very strong but his recovery is absolutely amazing, he has a great projectile, great juggle and combo options, and not to mention his range is so big. He can go out really far with a bair and still is able to recovery with ease.

 

[Trunks159]

Maybe this Mewtwo doesn't have high IVs/EVs for Defense. Also, in one of his trophies in Melee, it states that because he is levitating most of the time, he is launched very far.

I think that it is too early to judge how viable Mewtwo is.

Why?

Side B Confusion beats out a lot of approaches, and stops things like Flare Blitz, Falcon Kick, Rollout, Spindash, and Quick Draw.

Can it reliably stop spin dash? Flare blitz and quick draw and rollout and skull bash and whatnot can just be stopped with shield, no risk involved. Its unnnecessary.

 

[Trunks159]

Double post Well, might as well make this post useful.
I think so far Mewtow is low tier. You can throw out all the pros to him you want, you can disregard his cons. Cons weigh much more than pros. Is Mewtwo better than our low tiers? Ex. Wii fit, Palutena, Donkey Kong, Zelda and such? Not imo.

I like Mewtwo and all but they did not do a good job with him. Far too many cons to overlook. (Who knows I might be wrong though...).

 

[LimitCrown]

It seems that the infinite part of Mewtwo's jab cannot be interrupted by any attack that collides with it, even if another attack outprioritizes one of the hitboxes. This might make his jab combo one of the best.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Stop it, stop it right now


You guys are jumping to conclusions that mewtwo is just as bad as melee


Koing mewtwo is thefollwing 70% damage average in melee, now its 115% average to get him.

Shadow claw is more accurate, dash attack has better knockback, and also the other smash attacks have better attack and knockback as well.

Yes hes still light, and he has the lag nerfs, and confusion can be escaped by jumping right at the end, and still not even close to the speed of sonic,



And ofcoare the more important thing is this,

Sakurai changed his mind on ending character tweaks, so mewtwo may get some in the future to fix him up

 

[Trunks159]

Was the purpose of this post suppossd to convince some of us that he isnt bad?You basically just said a bunch of bad things about Mewtwo.

I highly doubt hell get buffed. Nerfs are the only thing that can happen.
Im just waiting for someone to convince me that Mewtwo is since I like him.

 

[PK Gaming]

"average strength attacks" is not an incontrovertible fact. Mewtwo's attacks are very strong. He's a killer.

Hence why I said most

And you're seriously overselling his KO power. He isn't that strong.

 

[BlazGreen]

It will take someone getting top 8 at a major to convince some people. -_-