What I've gathered from Sheik so far...

[Missile]

I want to express my opinion/share my experience on Sheik. First, a little background to put things in perspective:

WALL OF TEXT, BEWARE.

I come from Melee, started playing in 08, using Samus and Captain Falcon. What I liked about Samus was her range on most of her attacks, whereas Captain Falcon was fast and strong.

It wasn't until a few months ago that I realized Sheik was a good compromise between both of these characters, and she fit into my playstyle really well. I've been able to improve as a player thanks to him/her (I like to refer to the character as a her, which I'll do from now on). Someone I know that is very, very adept at smash, a veteran most would say (Lord HDL) put my experience into words that I couldn't have been able to put together: "[Sheik] let me focus on fighting the player in front of me rather than focusing on executing everything perfectly[...]" I'm not an exemplary players by any means, I don't have optimal reactions nor do I fully understand the character down to each frame, but I've managed to obtain a good feel of her and how she works over the albeit short time that I've been using her.

With that said, I began using Sheik in Project M recently. I've seen many posts of people complaining about how she feels very different in Project M (most of the time using the word "worse" instead of "different") and to an extent I will agree, but the developers also have given her some positive aspects, mainly her new back throw properties which I love.

However, I have found a bunch of things wrong with her which, in my opinion, are unreasonable given the current "low risk high reward" state of the cast in general. I will try to address them in an orderly fashion, so here goes:

1. Side-B: My current main gripe with Project M is the fact that a vast part of the cast have various recovery options, and many characters have a tether option (or two), or a very safe horizontal recovery move. Some examples of both of these occurences:
a. Captain Falcon's side-b either grabs the ledge, or raises him when he hits any kind of hurt box.
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b. Zero Suit Samus has up-B that meteors(?) on hit and can be used multiple times in the air without leaving her in special fall. She has her side-b which either hits (pretty damn hard) or tethers the ledge, and to top it off she has her new down-b that can be used before the second jump for extra horizontal range.
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c. Lucas has a really good recovery, combining down-b for extra horizontal travel (hits the opponent if they get too close, sending them towards the blast zone if he's facing the stage), a very good second jump and an air-dodge to tether game that makes him, for the most part, recover with invulnerability.
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d. Link and Toon Link have a tether, plus glide toss bomb jumps that can be used to interrupt an edge guard, plus up-b bomb jumps, plus an up-b that surround them with a hit box, protecting them for the most part.
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e. Diddy Kong has arguably the best up-b in the game in terms of recovery range, and he has a side-b that either command grabs, hits or sweetspots the ledge.
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f. Sonic... I cannot stress how incredibly good his recovery game is. He doesn't need a jump to return from any stage's blast zone. He only needs sub-par DI and neutral b + up-b and he will return from almost anywhere, given he has already used his spinshot technique. His neutral b will hit an edgeguarding opponent that isn't invulnerable if edge guarding is attempted.


I could keep going, but I think that is good enough. Just think of Mario, Wolf, Luigi, Peach, R.O.B., Snake, Ike, etc. as a few other examples of characters with more than one option of recovering.

Sheik, however, has her same, single option for recovery as she does in Melee. I am looking at Sheik for Sheik, and dismissing the fact that she can turn into Zelda, because in more than enough situations it is not optimal to transform into Zelda to recover.

Sheik has her second jump, to up-b. Why? Because her side-b tether from Brawl was REMOVED. Why was this particularly done? I watched some brawl videos recently and it is such a good recovery option that I cannot grasp the reason why her side-b tether was removed. Someone please explain why. Also, Zelda was given an additional hitbox on her up-b and I don't see why Sheik didn't receive the same treatment on her easily edge-hogged up-b.

Moving on to point 2.

2. The character model for Brawl is so different that I find myself whiffing follow-up forward and back airs that I do NOT whiff at all in Melee, on the same character (e.g. Marth, Fox, Falco, Samus)

I cannot explain why this is, particularly, but I can say that I find myself having to pause for a moment during jumping to land either aerial, risking reaction after the hitstun ends, or committing way too much by reaching in further than I have to, when compared to performing the same followup on the same character in Melee. An example of this is an 80% f-tilt to fair on Marth. Normally, I'd need to f-tilt Marth and full-jump f-air him instantly, but I keep whiffing that same followup on Marth in Project M. I will continue playing to try and see if this really negatively impacts me as much as it feels like it does.

3. Down-throw: I don't see why her down-throw was changed to the PAL version.

I read the reason in the change log but it still makes no sense to me. I feel as if it was an intentional nerf to her grab game. The receiving end can DI away at basically any percent and escape a deadly followup, making me have to resort to a potentially less lethal tech chase re-grab, and attempt an otherwise unnecessary mix up with backthrow and hope for bad DI on my opponent's part. You could say I'm complaining about not having "free" stuff anymore off of a throw, but I would only agree if a lot of other characters didn't have chain throws added to their repertoire (Lucas, Ness, Pit for example) or guaranteed moves out of throws which are always lethal past certain percentages (Toon Link, Ness, Lucas) or characters with hit confirms into free kills (Toon Link's bomb to up-b, boomerang to smash attack, etc.) or even ridiculous throws like Olimar's down-throw that you cannot DI behind him at all, or Snake's down-throw that is a free tech chase at any percent. I think it is a sad excuse to say her down-throw was broken and needed fixing/"adjusting to further improve her grab game".

Her back-throw improvement is beautiful. I love it. Her down-throw change... not so much.

4. Needle properties "fixed" + hurtboxes on the ground removed.

I think this is an unnecessary change and should be reverted/made to Melee standards. Sheik's needles are her only defense against projectiles like Mewtwo's Shadow Ball and Samus' charge beam, and are a good counter to many many projectiles in the game. Again, a lot of characters have anti-projectile projectiles themselves, plus a plethora of good things like recovery option variety, hit confirms, chain throws etc. so I see this change as completely unnecessary, and is simply a nerf for the hell of it.

As I understand it, the hurt box of the needles now overlap the hit box, making them "breakable" projectiles with a now incredibly wide variety of moves, whereas before they had their hurt box way behind their hit box, which meant that they went though most of everything. The downfall to such good projectiles was the necessity of charging them (giving up movement most of the time) for them to be really effective, or just a one-time deal with a single, quick needle.


5. None of her aerial moves received any particular buff or change whatsoever, and I think that with two changes to two different aerials she would have an improved aerial game.
a. Her down air should be given properties similar to that of Sonic's down air (reminiscent of her new d-air in Smash 4, or Brawl ZSS' d-air). I think the d-air as-is has limited usage in the new environment, and it would be good for her to speed up her movement/aerial mobility more, giving her an extra tool to try and get out of juggles, like a lot of characters possess (C.F. Falcon Kick, Ganon Wizard's Foot, Link & Tink Bomb and D-air, Sonic d-air and up-b, MK d-air, Falco d-air, etc)
b. The back air sourspots should be given either more knockback or more hitstun; in general, made stronger than it is. My reasoning behind this is that most characters in Project M don't have extremely weak sourspots on really laggy moves. There are even some particular examples where the b-air either does one of two extremely good and strong options, like Lucas' own b-air which either meteors or hits really hard backwards.

Characters with no sweetspot on b-airs with similar usage, speed and/or range as Sheik's: Sonic's B-air, ZSS-s B-air, MK's new B-air, Tink's b-air, Diddy's b-air, Ness' b-air, Wolf's b-air, and so on.

Last but not least:

6. Sheik is I believe one of a handful of characters that does not possess a down-ward killing move of any sort (meteor or spike regardless). Needle gimps do not count as down-ward kills, because Mario fireballs and pills have a similar use.

Wario, Mario, Luigi, DK, Diddy, Falcon, Wolf, Falco, Fox, Ice Climbers, Zelda, Link, Toon Link, Ganondorf, Mewtwo, Lucario, Ivysaur, Charizard, Samus, Zero Suit Samus, Lucas, Ness, Pit, Rob, Kirby, DDD, MK, Ike, Marth, Roy, G&W, Snake and Sonic ALL have moves that can meteor, spike, or send you below the horizontal plane in a way or another.

Off the list are Peach, Bowser (though his down-air could count), Yoshi, Pikachu, Squirtle (not too sure about this one), Olimar (not completely certain) .

EDIT: How could I forget Yoshi's f-air meteor? Olimar also has a meteor, both removed from the exempt list, bringing it down to 5, potentially 4 characters with no meteors.

I am not asking for a meteor. I am simply pointing this fact as a means to prove the point that a lot, if not the majority, of characters have an unfair variety of options when compared to some other, select few characters.


One last thing. Were the Melee Top Tier characters left either unchanged or received nerfs for any particular reason (to go as far as increase the blast zone range so to nerf Fox's early up-smash kills) or what exactly happened?

That is all for now, I hope you read everything before commenting, I will be participating in a tournament tomorrow and I will use Sheik once more to try and use her Project M-ness.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

By the way Pikachu's up-air (depending on the hitbox part that connects), Olimar's down-air and Yoshi's forward-air are downward killing moves.

 

[Missile]

By the way Pikachu's up-air (depending on the hitbox part that connects), Olimar's down-air and Yoshi's forward-air are downward killing moves.

I completely forgot about Yoshi's meteor f-air. Pika's u-air isn't a meteor which is why I didn't count it.

 

[ECHOnce]

In a lot of these points, Sheik deserved the nerf/lack of change. They definitely would make her a stronger character, but stronger =/= better. They'd sort of be a bit broken, and it'll just take some adjusting and getting used to as they are now.

- - -​

(1) Side-B Tether: On this, I would agree. Sheik is among the few in the cast that didn't receive a buffed recovery (as far as I know), and even in Melee, many considered her Up-B to be mediocre at best. More options would be nice. Regarding a second explosion following her reappearance...well, it definitely is easily edge-guardable, whether they're just edge-hogging without invincibility or taking advantage of the abysmal landing lag. But that doesn't necessarily mean it should be buffed; Sheik is a goddess around the ledge. Characters all need weaknesses to provide some means of being countered. But...if anything, I'd say that they should just reduce the landing lag. Plenty of other characters have far more easily edge-guardable recoveries (in diff ways), so we shouldn't necessarily complain about what we have (DK? Falcon, even if it was buffed a bit?)

(2) Size of Character Model: This is definitely a thing that bugs most people in the Melee --> PM transition, but unfortunately, it's just something you'll have to get used to. The whole cast suffers from this universally - Brawl just used larger char. models - but in the end, it's all in your head. Most of the Melee top tiers were scarcely changed, so concerning messing up combos out of F-tilt or whiffing aerials, that's just you not bring used to how large she appears. The actual hitboxes/distance traveled/etc. is all the same data-wise.

(3) D-Throw Chaingrab: You sort of counter your own logic here a bit. Chaingrabs were, for the most part, removed across the entire cast. Those that remain, like the ones you mentioned, don't work universally across the cast, but rather, in just a few MUs, so long as you DI properly. They're still there, just not as easily abused. Spacies have to deal with chaingrabs/tech-chase chaingrabs from just about everyone; that's just something they'll have to deal with as Spacies. IK that Sheik's D-throw still chain-grabs at least Bowser, who also has to deal with lots of them universally across MUs. IDK. I realize that a good chunk of her Melee meta revolved around her grab-game, but the amount of % she could wrack up on characters is so broken that, back in the day when Melee Sheik was god tier, her D-throw chain was essentially what Metaknight is to the Brawl tiers. Their placement was, for the most part, based on however well a character could deal with them. And while several other factors play into it, Sheik's D-throw remains as one of the big reasons a lot of characters are lower on the Melee tier list. It's pretty broken.

Further, you list that at least other characters now have solid combo ender/kill follow-ups after grabs. Sheik still does. If characters don't bounce that high after D-throw, she can F-tilt --> F-air. If the bounce a little higher, she can just F-air from there. If they go really high, like with floaties or at high %s, she can either U-air out of D-throw, or B-throw into F-air/U-air. In that regard, she can still follow up well.

(4) Priority of Needles: It definitely was one of her few means of countering projectiles. But it was extremely broken. Most characters have to either dodge/shield/power-shield to deal with projectiles; sure there are some with reflectors, but those are few and far between. Sheik? All she had to do was tap B, and the threat was gone. M2 or Samus could've spent a good few seconds charging it, but it's gone regardless. If sheik put the time into charging anymore than just one needle, it'd not only make their projectile useless, but immediately punish them for it in a way that they can't react to. At least with reflectors, they have a chance to dodge/shield/power-shield it as well. Now Sheik is just like any other character that has to deal with projectiles normally, which is most of the cast. (Disregarding that needles still cancel chargeable projectiles if they're only charged for a short time, which seems fairly reasonable as an equivalent to needle strength)

(5a) D-air: No. Her D-air is an amazing combo starter option, and is probably the only one she has while airborne (other than needles, but those are for diff scenarios). Her stall-then-fall Brawl D-air, as is the case with most stall-then-falls that aren't very strong, are extremely easily punishable. The only good application of it is to reach the ground quickly and to hit things below you, but she already has good fast-falling speed and aerials + needles to hit things below and protect her while doing so.

(5b) B-air: Here's a reason why it has sour-spots - it has lingering hitboxes to make up for it. Which makes it one of her best spacing tools, which she has few of. More applications/options from just a single move? I'll take that any day over a guaranteed finisher, which it still can be as long as you position yourself well. Especially when we already have 2 other aerials with guaranteed high KB on hit.

(6) Downward KB Moves: Hey, we can't have it all. F-air is by far one of the best non-sweetspot aerials in terms of horizontal KB. Along with Needles and falling N-airs/B-airs, she really doesn't need a spike/meteor to edge-guard any better. They're already more than enough to give her what is debatably the best edge-guarding toolset in the game.

Also, Peach and Bowser both have D-airs that usually hit upward, but the last hitbox send them downwards, iirc. Pikachu's U-air has a downward (but mostly forward) hitbox that's a little hard to get, but it's definitely usable. And Squirtle has Bubbles (Down-B) when used in the air, which sends people downward-forwards. It's basically Sheik Needles, but close-ranged and with more KB.

- - -​

Melee top tiers were left mostly unchanged because they didn't need to be changed. Project M aimed to balance the cast. Instead of nerfing the top tiers that the majority of players would be used to, they decided to buff everyone else up until they could be used against the Melee top tiers viably.

 

[Missile]

In a lot of these points, Sheik deserved the nerf/lack of change. They definitely would make her a stronger character, but stronger =/= better. They'd sort of be a bit broken, and it'll just take some adjusting and getting used to as they are now.

I don't think any melee top tier character is deserving of any nerf if the modus operandi will be "buffing everything else to make them 'viable' ".

- - -​

(1) Side-B Tether: On this, I would agree. Sheik is among the few in the cast that didn't receive a buffed recovery (as far as I know), and even in Melee, many considered her Up-B to be mediocre at best. More options would be nice. Regarding a second explosion following her reappearance...well, it definitely is easily edge-guardable, whether they're just edge-hogging without invincibility or taking advantage of the abysmal landing lag. But that doesn't necessarily mean it should be buffed; Sheik is a goddess around the ledge.

But she is no longer the character with arguably the best edge guard game of the cast. Right now, her edge game is "decent" at best.

Characters all need weaknesses to provide some means of being countered. But...if anything, I'd say that they should just reduce the landing lag. Plenty of other characters have far more easily edge-guardable recoveries (in diff ways), so we shouldn't necessarily complain about what we have (DK? Falcon, even if it was buffed a bit?)

Which is the main problem of this game. Characters have very little weaknesses and most moves are high reward with little to no risk.

(2) Size of Character Model:

This is definitely a thing that bugs most people in the Melee --> PM transition, but unfortunately, it's just something you'll have to get used to. The whole cast suffers from this universally - Brawl just used larger char. models - but in the end, it's all in your head. Most of the Melee top tiers were scarcely changed, so concerning messing up combos out of F-tilt or whiffing aerials, that's just you not bring used to how large she appears. The actual hitboxes/distance traveled/etc. is all the same data-wise.

It does not feel the same as Melee to me. I play Melee and Project M daily, and I switch from one to the other very frequently.

(3) D-Throw Chaingrab:

You sort of counter your own logic here a bit. Chaingrabs were, for the most part, removed across the entire cast. Those that remain, like the ones you mentioned, don't work universally across the cast, but rather, in just a few MUs, so long as you DI properly. They're still there, just not as easily abused.

We must not be playing the same game then. I see all kinds of chain grabs from characters like Ness, Lucas, Pit, Olimar, Wolf, Diddy. I can DI out of them after certain percentages, having used characters like Fox, Wolf, Sheik, Marth, Captain Falcon and Roy to name a few.

Spacies have to deal with chaingrabs/tech-chase chaingrabs from just about everyone; that's just something they'll have to deal with as Spacies. IK that Sheik's D-throw still chain-grabs at least Bowser, who also has to deal with lots of them universally across MUs.

"That's just something they'll have to deal with" is not something that I agree with. Sheik can ONLY chain throw Bowser... Everyone else just gets away from it.

IDK. I realize that a good chunk of her Melee meta revolved around her grab-game, but the amount of % she could wrack up on characters is so broken that, back in the day when Melee Sheik was god tier, her D-throw chain was essentially what Metaknight is to the Brawl tiers. Their placement was, for the most part, based on however well a character could deal with them. And while several other factors play into it, Sheik's D-throw remains as one of the big reasons a lot of characters are lower on the Melee tier list. It's pretty broken.

Melee has no way of receiving any improvements. It's a lost cause. However, nerfing her down throw because it is broken in Melee alone is not a good enough reason to do so, primarily because the rest of the cast has been substantially improved.

Further, you list that at least other characters now have solid combo ender/kill follow-ups after grabs. Sheik still does. If characters don't bounce that high after D-throw, she can F-tilt --> F-air. If the bounce a little higher, she can just F-air from there. If they go really high, like with floaties or at high %s, she can either U-air out of D-throw, or B-throw into F-air/U-air. In that regard, she can still follow up well.

Sheik has no free post-throw kill move. It is really mostly dependent on the bad DI of your opponent. Toon Link has a free down-throw -> up-b kill setup, similar to what Sheik had in Melee, but Sheik's got nerfed on the grounds that it was 'broken', yet Toon Link's is not? How can you explain that?

(4) Priority of Needles: It definitely was one of her few means of countering projectiles. But it was extremely broken. Most characters have to either dodge/shield/power-shield to deal with projectiles; sure there are some with reflectors, but those are few and far between. Sheik? All she had to do was tap B, and the threat was gone. M2 or Samus could've spent a good few seconds charging it, but it's gone regardless. If sheik put the time into charging anymore than just one needle, it'd not only make their projectile useless, but immediately punish them for it in a way that they can't react to. At least with reflectors, they have a chance to dodge/shield/power-shield it as well. Now Sheik is just like any other character that has to deal with projectiles normally, which is most of the cast. (Disregarding that needles still cancel chargeable projectiles if they're only charged for a short time, which seems fairly reasonable as an equivalent to needle strength)

Needles are not extremely broken. Please explain how they would be broken in Project M. Most of the cast have different ways of dealing with projectiles. Her needles went from anti-projectiles to Samus homing missile tier.

(5a) D-air: No. Her D-air is an amazing combo starter option, and is probably the only one she has while airborne (other than needles, but those are for diff scenarios). Her stall-then-fall Brawl D-air, as is the case with most stall-then-falls that aren't very strong, are extremely easily punishable. The only good application of it is to reach the ground quickly and to hit things below you, but she already has good fast-falling speed and aerials + needles to hit things below and protect her while doing so.

Airborne, she can land u-air at about the same percents that d-air will pop up to follow up with a combo. D-air is not very useful. It has a lot of start up and is very punishable.

(5b) B-air: Here's a reason why it has sour-spots - it has lingering hitboxes to make up for it. Which makes it one of her best spacing tools, which she has few of. More applications/options from just a single move? I'll take that any day over a guaranteed finisher, which it still can be as long as you position yourself well. Especially when we already have 2 other aerials with guaranteed high KB on hit.

I'm not saying it's bad that it has sour spots. I'm saying that those sour spots need a little love on the knock back side of things. The sour spots are still unnecessarily weak. Something not very problematic in Melee due to a mindless approach, but in Project M safe, mindless approaches are a dime a dozen. The problem with Project M is that most mindless approaches are hit confirms that are extremely safe, and her main spacing, anti-approach move is no longer her f-tilt as much as it was in Melee.

(6) Downward KB Moves: Hey, we can't have it all. F-air is by far one of the best non-sweetspot aerials in terms of horizontal KB. Along with Needles and falling N-airs/B-airs, she really doesn't need a spike/meteor to edge-guard any better. They're already more than enough to give her what is debatably the best edge-guarding toolset in the game.

I used this point as a means of portraying why I think this game needs a little more thought be put into the balancing aspect of it. Some characters have everything, while others have to make do with very, very limited, repetitive options.

Also, Peach and Bowser both have D-airs that usually hit upward, but the last hitbox send them downwards, iirc. Pikachu's U-air has a downward (but mostly forward) hitbox that's a little hard to get, but it's definitely usable. And Squirtle has Bubbles (Down-B) when used in the air, which sends people downward-forwards. It's basically Sheik Needles, but close-ranged and with more KB.

Unless you know something that I don't, Peach's d-air doesn't send down AT ALL. Meanwhile, Bowser's d-air just drags you down with him as he hits you, it neither raises nor lowers you upon consecutive hits, and no single hitbox has a downward trajectory.

- - -​

Melee top tiers were left mostly unchanged because they didn't need to be changed. Project M aimed to balance the cast. Instead of nerfing the top tiers that the majority of players would be used to, they decided to buff everyone else up until they could be used against the Melee top tiers viably.

I could argue the same with many characters. I think many Brawl characters simply needed to be tried out with Melee mechanics before going out of their way and have their move set completely revamped.

 

[foxygrandpa]

Sheik is not the best in this game for sure. She's probably upper mid, but this game is balanced to the extent where it doesnt make a difference. Sheik is still a good character. Her grab system is also not worse, just different in this game.

What character besides mewtwo (who is blatantly overpowered) beats sheik on the edge? And sheik has only a decent edge game? You must not be very proficient with the character, otherwise pushing someone off the edge with sheik is either a ton of free percent or in most cases a stock. Her edge game is actually better than it was in melee. RAR makes it much easier and faster to take the edge while approaching it, and sheik can now grab the edge with the flip of her up b while facing backwards.
I also play both games daily. I live in a house with 3 other brothers, all of which play both melee and pm at a respectively high level. I have absolutely zero problem switching in between games, other than tech chasing with grabs, which usually takes me about 3 minutes to get used to. The sprite makes absolutely no difference, and even if it did, it wouldnt be enough to win or lose a game, or even a stock. Adapt. There's little to no chance that theyre changing the sprite.
As for sheik's grab game, her melee downthrow was very balanced in the developed metagame. Among top tier characters, it was fine. But. sheik's dthrow more or less gave the top tiers their spots. She really shouldnt be able to chaingrab 70 percent of the cast in a game striving to be balanced. Her new grab system is pretty cool though, I encourage you to just give it a chance. If you mix up the d throw and back throw, theres a 50 percent chance of a regrab on most characters. Also, back throw, if DI'd incorrectly leads straight into upsmash. Sheik's fair does not kill characters like it used to. The viability of heavy characters makes them live longer to the sides. However, bthrow into upsmash can kill reliably on everyone except fast fallers. And even if you dont want to take advantage of this better mechanic, bthrow or dthrow still lead into fair. The throws are too fast to react to. A player has to spontaneously DI to avoid them, and some characters can still be combo'd by it nonetheless.
The needles werent extremely broken. But they're not terrible the way they are. You know, if there's shadow ball coming after you, you could always just move? Or shield? I would like the needles back too, but it's not that big of a deal. And if it was for you, work around it.
Dair is not used as a good combo starter. It is extremely easy to crouch cancel and punish. However, it is still good at continuing combos. it has good stun on it and doesn't send as far as upair. It's really easy to follow up from and lead into.
The smaller knockback on her back air is fine the way it is. The weak hits of back air are actually beneficial to a good sheik player. Reverse bair into forward air works more often than not, and more bairs as well. It actually helps her edgeguards too. More knockback, especially with the recoveries in pm so strong, would actually hit the opponent too far and let them come back. The weak hit of back air keeps them close to sheik and under her pressure. It was the same in melee too, learn to use it and you'll improve immensely.
It's true that approaches in pm are strong. However, you shouldn't be trying to play any kind of neutral game with sheik. You should be in their face, where sheik is best. She can't play in the neutral in melee either, and many characters dependence on the neutral actually helps sheik matchup wise. Playing against a good sheik
Why would sheik need a downward knockback move? All her attacks launch into each other...that would be pointless...as for killing, she can edgeguard and kill of the bottom without it.

What sheik may need however, is maybe a slightly better option against crouch canceling. Heavy characters can crouch cancel to some insane percents. Snake and squirtle gained crawl attacks, and I think she would benefit from one too.

The balance in this game is pretty good bud, you just need to learn how to use sheik in some ways she wouldn't need to play before. I used to think sheik's grab system in this was bad too, but then I realized how good it still is. It's not necessarily better or worse, just different. It's annoying that out of the melee supers she's the only one that has to play slightly different, but don't be so quick to pass her off as bottom tier. She's not as good as many people suggest her to be, but she's still good in the hands of a good player and I doubt she's getting any major changes, so you should probably just get used to her the way she is. If not, you could always just switch. It was pretty easy for me to pick up pit from sheik, you can try him if you'd like.

 

[Missile]

Sheik is not the best in this game for sure. She's probably upper mid, but this game is balanced to the extent where it doesnt make a difference. Sheik is still a good character. Her grab system is also not worse, just different in this game.

Sorry but this game still needs tons of work on the balance aspect. It is not only I who says this, too.

What character besides mewtwo (who is blatantly overpowered) beats sheik on the edge? And sheik has only a decent edge game? You must not be very proficient with the character, otherwise pushing someone off the edge with sheik is either a ton of free percent or in most cases a stock. Her edge game is actually better than it was in melee.

Mewtwo is overpowered since Emukiller took Sktar3 now? Hadn't seen those two together ever, until now. (mewtwo and overpowered I mean).
Her edge game is better than it was in melee, but all characters, save a very small handful, have substantially better recoveries, so it's a moot point to me.
You can gimp a select few characters, particularly fast fallers, just like in Melee. Most others will return regardless of any attempts at gimping.

As for sheik's grab game, her melee downthrow was very balanced in the developed metagame. Among top tier characters, it was fine. But. sheik's dthrow more or less gave the top tiers their spots. She really shouldnt be able to chaingrab 70 percent of the cast in a game striving to be balanced.

Melee is Melee, and Project M is Project M. Nerfing the down throw on the grounds that it is broken in Melee is not applicable to Project M, since the casts of both games are really different. She really should be able to chain grab 70% of the cast (more like 30% in Project M, though, since the roster is larger), mainly because there are characters that chain grab an actual 70% of the Project M cast. Off the top of my head, Pit's down-throw and up-throw chain grab different weights.

Sheik's fair does not kill characters like it used to. The viability of heavy characters makes them live longer to the sides. However, bthrow into upsmash can kill reliably on everyone except fast fallers. And even if you dont want to take advantage of this better mechanic, bthrow or dthrow still lead into fair

Like I said, I am dedicating more time to try and find ways around this seemly lackluster f-air.

The needles werent extremely broken. But they're not terrible the way they are. You know, if there's shadow ball coming after you, you could always just move? Or shield? I would like the needles back too, but it's not that big of a deal.

There's a bunch of other things that simply destroy needles now, not just the Shadow Ball and Charge Shot. The hurt boxes while they're on the ground shouldn't have been removed. It was a way to slow down players' moves by extending hit boxes. It really bothers me how they are right now. They're not useless, just not as big in her game as they used to be.

Dair is not used as a good combo starter. It is extremely easy to crouch cancel and punish. However, it is still good at continuing combos. it has good stun on it and doesn't send as far as upair. It's really easy to follow up from and lead into.
The smaller knockback on her back air is fine the way it is. The weak hits of back air are actually beneficial to a good sheik player. Reverse bair into forward air works more often than not, and more bairs as well.

It was the same in melee too, learn to use it and you'll improve immensely.

It's true that approaches in pm are strong. However, you shouldn't be trying to play any kind of neutral game with sheik. You should be in their face, where sheik is best. She can't play in the neutral in melee either, and many characters dependence on the neutral actually helps sheik matchup wise. Playing against a good sheik
Why would sheik need a downward knockback move? All her attacks launch into each other...that would be pointless...as for killing, she can edgeguard and kill of the bottom without it.

She can't play neutral game in Melee, so she shouldn't play neutral game in Project M either? Again, another instance of sometimes separating the two games, and other times not doing it.

Either she's Melee Sheik, or she's Project M Sheik, but removing her side-b tether because it's no in Melee, removing her down-throw chain throw because it's broken in Melee, and leaving her with no neutral game because she has none in Melee are all instances of contradictions and shows conflicted opinions on what should be done in regards to her balance by the PMBR.

What sheik may need however, is maybe a slightly better option against crouch canceling. Heavy characters can crouch cancel to some insane percents. Snake and Squirtle gained crawl attacks, and I think she would benefit from one too.

She has an option against crouch cancels, her grab. She could benefit from a reduced KB d-tilt, but increased speed/spamability as a tool to increase pressure/counter crouch-cancel counters.

The balance in this game is pretty good bud, you just need to learn how to use sheik in some ways she wouldn't need to play before. I used to think sheik's grab system in this was bad too, but then I realized how good it still is. It's not necessarily better or worse, just different. It's annoying that out of the melee supers she's the only one that has to play slightly different, but don't be so quick to pass her off as bottom tier.

I do need to use Sheik more and adapt to her new feel. However, the game is not balanced. I don't mean that her grab game is bad, it was just adjusted in an unnecesary way. She could've been perfect with the b-throw tweak plus keeping her NTSC d-throw. Finally, no one is bottom tier in this game. The worst character, at the worst, is as bad as Samus in Melee is, which is not really that bad.

She's not as good as many people suggest her to be, but she's still good in the hands of a good player and I doubt she's getting any major changes, so you should probably just get used to her the way she is.

I don't want to "get used" to a worse Sheik. You shouldn't eliminate the possibility of improving her in the near future. Other characters have received major buffs, where as Sheik is full of negative changes with no improvements. In the hands of a good player, that good player will have to put in MUCH MORE effort to perform as good as an equally good player with a Brawl character lol.

If not, you could always just switch. It was pretty easy for me to pick up pit from sheik, you can try him if you'd like.

That's not the way to handle this....

 

[foxygrandpa]

Mewtwo was overpowered when people took notice of his overly safe options. This game is not perfectly balanced, as it's a work in progress, but it's far more balanced than melee was. And thats pretty much agreed upon.
First off, aspects from melee that were essential to sheik's gameplay were kept intact.
I secondary pit. He can not chain anyone in this game (except fastfallers) to past 20%. He can't reliably chaingrab with upthrow at all as a matter of fact. The most potent chaingrabber in this game is snake, who cant regrab most characters past 40 percent. If you're telling me that it's fair to take stocks off of one simple grab on anyone other than fox or falco, you do not know what game balance is. Aside from a character being good, the character also has to take skill to use. 0-death off of one grab is not skill demanding at all.
I can gimp nearly every character in this game, with very little exception. If you think sheik can not keep characters off stage, it's an indicator of not being good with the character. We're playing with the same character after all, if I can do it and you can't, its simply the inability of the player to execute properly. You need to work on your edge game immensely. It's really core to the character as a whole.
She does not need the tether. If you think this would be fair in any sort of way, you don't know the character well. Large invincible up b that can snap to the edge. Literally the only flaw on her up b is the fact that it has lag landing on stage. The tether would mitigate this to an unfair extent.
She does not need a neutral game. It's not core to her playstyle. If you want to play a character with a good neutral, sheik is not the character for you. Although some things were changed from melee, her basic playstyle is the same. She still plays mainly focusing on attrition and forcing people into disadvantageous postiions.
You do realize that sheik has to attack once in a while. She can't only grab. Crouch canceling was her weakness in melee as well, and it was kept that way. If anything about her warrants a buff, its that.
Again, I've beaten players that used brawl characters. It's true that some of the character from brawl are better than sheik, but if you can efficiently use her, you can beat them. The truth is that sheik's probably going to stay the way she is. Think of it this way-If a whole bunch of other people think that she's ok, it's more likely that she is, rather than the one person upset about her being right. She already has a pretty considerably developed metagame that was kept from melee. You have to remember that this game is designed to be competetive, design and balance are a priority for this game.
I main sheik. Would I like for her to be better? Of course. It's true that some character do have an edge on her, but the balance in this game is not as far spread as your making it out to be. If sheik received some of the buffs you're suggesting, I'm confident that sheik would take no skill and be too strong. Of course, character like lucas, mario, or fox are clearly better, but a player that can use anyone else efficiently can still beat them.
Being good with a character makes tier lists invalid. Especially in a game that's essentially a balancing project. this game is balanced fine, except with a few tweaks.
Switching characters when you're not happy with a character is actually a very good way to solve the problem. If you're convinced that someone is that much better than sheik, you might as well play them if you'd like to win and you don't like the way she plays. It doesn't seem like you know much about the game if you're convinced that sheik's NTSC dthrow would be fair and that pit can chain people with upthrow. The truth is, she plays slightly different than she does with melee. And that's absolutely fine.

When a lot of people come from this game from melee, or generally arent very skilled, the balance doesnt look good.
This games fine. You just need to get better.

 

[Missile]

Mewtwo was overpowered when people took notice of his overly safe options. but it's far more balanced than melee was.

You mean Sktar3.

He [Pit] can not chain anyone in this game (except fastfallers) to past 20%.

There are a few fastfallers, not just Fox and Falco anymore, so there are a few, frequently used characters that he can chaingrab using d-throw past certain percents. His up-throw chain grabs fastfallers at very very low percents, to be switched out by d-throw.

He also combos out of his d-throw. Any character.

If you're telling me that it's fair to take stocks off of one simple grab on anyone other than fox or falco, you do not know what game balance is.

First off, why is it only fair if it is from Fox or Falco? Because they're top tier in Melee and you hate them (I'm assuming) it's fair?
P.S. a ****load of characters have throw-> kill moves in this game. So everyone else's is fair, but Sheik's isn't, that's your logic?
Toon Link, Lucas, Ness, Snake, Pit, Ivysaur, Lucario for example all have throw->death, and even more characters than those have hit confirms into kills, like Toon Link's bomb->up-b/u-smash, to give an example.

Aside from a character being good, the character also has to take skill to use. 0-death off of one grab is not skill demanding at all.

The character also has to have a downside. Something that almost none of the characters, bar Melee top tiers and a handful of others, have.

She does not need the tether. If you think this would be fair in any sort of way, you don't know the character well. Large invincible up b that can snap to the edge. Literally the only flaw on her up b is the fact that it has lag landing on stage. The tether would mitigate this to an unfair extent.

How would it be unfair? Before saying I suck, give me a good, reasonable reason as to why this would be unfair, while a bunch of other characters that can recover just fine without a tether still have one.

Her up-b is not invincible neither on startup nor the ending after the explosion. It's not "largely" invincible.

She does not need a neutral game. It's not core to her playstyle. If you want to play a character with a good neutral, sheik is not the character for you.

I'm not saying she doesn't need a neutral game. I'm just saying that if it's a game about balance like you're making it out to be, then she should have some sort of neutral game, a core aspect of the game's cast. Just about everyone else has neutral game ranging from sub-par to godlike. Sheik's is non-existent.

Although some things were changed from melee, her basic playstyle is the same. She still plays mainly focusing on attrition and forcing people into disadvantageous postiions.

Just about every character focuses on attrition and forcing people into disadvantageous position. Sheik has to work very hard for it comparted to MOST characters.

Again, I've beaten players that used brawl characters. It's true that some of the character from brawl are better than sheik, but if you can efficiently use her, you can beat them.

I've beaten Brawl characters too. I've worked much harder than they have to take a stock, and I'm generally better at the game than they are. There are some players I simply cannot beat unless I choose a different, unbalanced character.

You have to remember that this game is designed to be competetive, design and balance are a priority for this game.

No it's not. It should be a priority, but currently, it's not.

It's true that some character do have an edge on her, but the balance in this game is not as far spread as your making it out to be.

Just about every character except Fox, Falco, Captain Falcon, Peach, Marth and Samus have an edge on Sheik. Sounds to me like they watered down Melee characters to a group of their own, and then put almost everyone else atop.

I'm confident that sheik would take no skill and be too strong.

I'm asking for her to have the things she had in Melee, which, in that game, made her bottom of the top tier, they didn't make her broken.

So if her Melee shenanigans were returned, she would take no Skill and be too strong?
So you're saying she takes no skill and is too strong in Melee?

Switching characters when you're not happy with a character is actually a very good way to solve the problem.

It's a good way to AVOID the problem, yes, but not solve it. That's how you do it in Melee. It shouldn't be the same way in PM.

When a lot of people come from this game from melee, or generally arent very skilled, the balance doesnt look good.
This games fine. You just need to get better.

I wonder why that skewed perception of things is the way it works.
>Coming from Melee, maining Fox: WTF LASERS DO LESS THAN 1% HERE?!?! I'm being chain thrown by Ness, Lucas, Pit or Olimar and Sheik can't chain throw because it's broken, lolque?
>Coming from Brawl: Holy **** Pit can d-throw->fair->arrow->fair->arrow->fair to kill you in this game!? Thank god for BUFFS!!!

You've called me a bad player so many times already without even having watched me play that it's not even funny.

 

[foxygrandpa]

If by the other fastfallers, you're referring to lucas, roy, and mk, pit cannot chain grab them efficiently. He might get a couple of regrabs at lower percent, but not enough to make a significant difference in the matchup.
What character in this game doesnt have a downside? Every single one does. And that's a fact.
If I'm a melee player, why would I hate fox? I play him a lot too as a matter of fact, hence the tag. If you think fox and falco dont have an edge on her (and everyone else in the cast), thats just blatantly incorrect. They are still among the best. The other melee characters are great too, but puff has it a little rough in this game. But a good player can still win with her.
Fox is still pretty much the best in this game even with chaingrabs. Honestly, he deserves to be chaingrab because of his neutral being virtually unrivaled, despite everyone else being improved. Marth didnt hard counter spacies, even though he could chaingrab them. Neither do these characters.
Sheiks up b is invincible on start up. Before she disappears she is intangible. Ive ledge stalled through the laser cannon in halberd and b bombs to test it, and it was the same in melee. The tether would be unfair because it would literally make her untouchable on the edge, whereas now taking the edge from her and punishing her onstage endlag is a viable option.
Sheik is fine without a neutral. It's what distinguishes her from other characters, and makes her interesting to play.
Sheik's grab game is still one of the best. The new grab game actually helps her, since bthrow into upsmash kills characters a lot earlier than fair would. She lost what wouldve made all heavyweights unviable.
Sheik was not bottom of the top tier in melee. She was actually rated the best behind fox and falco. And melee sheik was broken, she was only fair in the competetive metagame in which the game is played in now. Sheik had positive matchups against every single low tier character. Look at characters like pikachu, who had metagame potential. Sheik could 0 death chaingrab him. Chaingrab's shouldn't really happen to anyone except fox and falco. There is a reason why every character has anti space animal moves and fox still dominates.
You are far overrating pit. He's really good, but not better than fox is. Yes he does a good grab, but sheik's DI mixup is still a godly option.
I dont mean to insult you by calling you a bad player, but I think you should sit down with the game a little longer before making so many complaints, because a lot of the things you say are not true.

 

[Lil Puddin]

She is very good and her aerials are just fine. A lot of characters have meteor mashes, but meteor mashes are often risky. Shiek on the other hand has some great ways to send someone up into the blast zone. Not only is the hitbox pretty long, but it also lingers for a bit. It doesn't even need a sweet spot. It's totally ridonk. So that's the justification for keeping her away from having a meteor mash. Also, she should NOT get too far off the stage. So even if she did have a meteor mash it would be extremely risky. Her fair/nair/bair are fine for edge guarding without putting her in danger's way.

Her side B... The move is useless. Why have a useless move? Just make it tether again. This way her below average recovery that they deem as "average" will actually be OK. She's already pretty easy to keep off the stage with characters who outrange her which is quite a lot of the cast, so she could use some assistance.

Her needles are fine, but they should retain a quick hitbox when they hit the ground. It should at least deal damage because it's a freaking nail-like needle. You try stepping on a 9+ inch nail. Chances are you won't skip off like Peach going "Having a nail drive a hole into my dainty foot doesn't hurt at all~ I'm still peachy~" So yeah. That could use a slight revamp. Like if she drives the needles down at an angle they stay in the ground for a bit (1-2 seconds) and provide hitstun, but throwing them horizontally means when they fall to the ground, they would just fall flat. So if someone tries to run under her, they will be punished with light hitstun that allows Shiek to follow up.

Sure some characters are totally powerful compared to her, but that just means they should be nerfed instead of her being super buffed. She could just use some tweaking to make her a little more logically sound as well as giving her options she could really use.

Another option that would make a lot of sense is being able to act out of her up B. For one, her up B has a very short range and has a little bit of start up. Compared to Sonic, Mewtwo, Snake, Mr GaW, and anyone else with pseudo-recoveries (like Mario's cape), Sheik being able to act out of up B would not be all that broken at all. She's also a freaking ninja, so it makes a lot of sense to have a lot less restriction for her up B. Though to be honest this would not help much except for her being able to use R/L to gain a little more distance. Which is still fair.

Either that or give her a really big and lingering hitbox to ruin ledge hoggers. She could throw down a deku nut when she reappears and totally ruin whoever's trying to ledge guard her. But it can only be done when she attacks midair, not on the ground. Again, this would not be that broken because her aerial recovery is pretty horrible and keeping her off the stage is pretty easy. So ledge guarding would be more of a "bro, you should've swatted her away instead of trying to ledge hog" kind of punishment. Sounds fair enough either way.

 

[Missile]

If by the other fastfallers, you're referring to lucas, roy, and mk, pit cannot chain grab them efficiently. He might get a couple of regrabs at lower percent, but not enough to make a significant difference in the matchup.

You're telling me that 0% to 50% is not a "significant difference in the matchup?"

What character in this game doesnt have a downside? Every single one does. And that's a fact.

Some of them have negligible downsides. However, a certain blue hedgehog has about every option available to him in the game, minus a side or diagonally traveling projectile. He DOES have a projectile, however. He himself is a projectile too.
He's basically a moving hitbox.

The other melee characters are great too, but puff has it a little rough in this game.

"a little rough" is such an understatement.

Fox is still pretty much the best in this game even with chaingrabs. Honestly, he deserves to be chaingrab because of his neutral being virtually unrivaled, despite everyone else being improved.

Fox is not the best in this game. Lucas has the same killing potential as him, and then some. There is nothing you could possibly tell me that will convince me that Fox is outright "the best" in Project M.

Sheiks up b is invincible on start up. Before she disappears she is intangible. Ive ledge stalled through the laser cannon in halberd and b bombs to test it, and it was the same in melee

Sheik's up-b is invincible in start up? Really?

No buddy, you're wrong, and this is where I end talking to you. It is you, with all due respect, who should go out and learn more about the game before coming here and trying to judge my very educated reasoning, that I've previously argued/brainstormed about with other very competent people who disagree and a agree on some of my points.

For your information here is the Melee, albeit watered down, frame data for Sheik's up-b:
Total: 94
Hit: 36-42
Invincible: 18-55
The frame of choosing direction: 35
Landlag: 30
Landfallspeciallag: 4

And here is a screen shot of Project M code:

I do not fully understand the special tags of the code, however it is quite easily deduced that from frame 0-17, there is nothing going on, attack/sheik's properties wise. As soon as frame 18 hits, she becomes intangible, which is the line right below the Asynchronous Timer.

That means she's intangible as soon as frame 18 hits, and not as soon as you up-b.

The second part, after the vanish, has no intangibility.

 

[Missile]

She is very good and her aerials are just fine. A lot of characters have meteor mashes, but meteor mashes are often risky. Shiek on the other hand has some great ways to send someone up into the blast zone. Not only is the hitbox pretty long, but it also lingers for a bit. It doesn't even need a sweet spot. It's totally ridonk. So that's the justification for keeping her away from having a meteor mash. Also, she should NOT get too far off the stage. So even if she did have a meteor mash it would be extremely risky. Her fair/nair/bair are fine for edge guarding without putting her in danger's way.

I think that when she was designed, the train of thought wasn't to not give her a meteor because she can combo with an upwards launching attack, but instead that the only move that would make sense to be a meteor was scrapped as such in exchange for a move that could potentially be more useful based on her design.

The execution of the d-air however was horrible. It's got a ton more start up than a lot of other laggy down-airs e.g. Captain Falcon's. This reduces the amount of situations in which it is actually an optimal option. Mind you there is a big difference between "possible" option and "optimal" option.

The d-air's hitboxes are also janky, since she has NO hitbox on her foot "bone" (this game treats each character as a set of polygons or "bones" as the code calls them), and she does have a hurtbox on her foot "bone" when she does it. It also has no disjointedness whatsoever.

Her side B... The move is useless. Why have a useless move? Just make it tether again. This way her below average recovery that they deem as "average" will actually be OK. She's already pretty easy to keep off the stage with characters who outrange her which is quite a lot of the cast, so she could use some assistance.

My point exactly.

Her needles are fine, but they should retain a quick hitbox when they hit the ground. It should at least deal damage because it's a freaking nail-like needle. You try stepping on a 9+ inch nail. Chances are you won't skip off like Peach going "Having a nail drive a hole into my dainty foot doesn't hurt at all~ I'm still peachy~" So yeah. That could use a slight revamp. Like if she drives the needles down at an angle they stay in the ground for a bit (1-2 seconds) and provide hitstun, but throwing them horizontally means when they fall to the ground, they would just fall flat. So if someone tries to run under her, they will be punished with light hitstun that allows Shiek to follow up.

That's not a horrible idea but it'd just be enough if they were as in melee. I wouldn't go as far as to include realism in this game.

Sure some characters are totally powerful compared to her, but that just means they should be nerfed instead of her being super buffed. She could just use some tweaking to make her a little more logically sound as well as giving her options she could really use.

You and I differ on our opinion of how balancing should be handled. I don't think a strong character should be nerfed to weaker character standards, but instead it should be done the other way around, very carefully.

I say carefully because the Project M BR decided that it was "balanced" to completely revamp a character's moveset and design to "buff" him up to stronger character standards.

I think that if you nerf a character to a lesser character's standards, you lose that character's essence and essentially bring him into a territory in which the lesser character is both more dominant and better designed to operate inside of.

Another option that would make a lot of sense is being able to act out of her up B. For one, her up B has a very short range and has a little bit of start up. Compared to Sonic, Mewtwo, Snake, Mr GaW, and anyone else with pseudo-recoveries (like Mario's cape), Sheik being able to act out of up B would not be all that broken at all. She's also a freaking ninja, so it makes a lot of sense to have a lot less restriction for her up B. Though to be honest this would not help much except for her being able to use R/L to gain a little more distance. Which is still fair.

This is actually not a bad idea in and of itself, since her up-b has some drawbacks such as no horizontal momentum after her vanish, and is too laggy for Project M standards. I think even Falcon's up-b landing lag got reduced if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Missile]

Here's what her tether looks like in PM. My friend in the video shows you more or less the range on it from Brawl.
http://youtu.be/OFonf9NlO7I?t=1m55s

 

[foxygrandpa]

In a stage with platforms, pits chaingrab does not make that much of a difference. That's about 95 percent of the stages. The grab might be slightly tweaked, but I won't expect it to make a huge difference, and it might still chaingrab them anyway.

There is no character in this game with downsides that arent exploitable. And sonic's spin attacks are very easy to interrupt, just throw out any high priority attack to stuff his approach. In fact, I would say that sheik counters sonic.

Fox isnt the best in this game? If thats what you sincerely believe, you're entitled to, I suppose, but I would still say he's the top. Lucas is also an extremely solid character, but fox is still better. It's not the kill potential that makes fox good, or even the combos. Of course they help, but the part of him that makes him so much better than the cast is his neutral game. Even with the laser nerfs, he can stay in the neutral, where he dominates the entire cast. Even if he wasn't the best, the fact that the characters have undeveloped metas, whereas fox can still use his old strategies puts him at an edge. Lucas might be around his level, but I would still argue fox is the better character, solely due to his speed.

I wasn't arguing that sheik was invincible on frame one of her up b. By startup, I simply meant prior to disappearance, which you showed. That was my fault for not specifying.

As for buffs for sheik, the melee needles would be nice to have back, but again aren't that necessary. They were helpful, but by no means centralizing to her play. Better hitboxes on her dair would be nice too, but to change it to a meteor would be too much imo. And as for the tether, I would rather have the attack completely scrapped and replaced, than to have a tether with it. Tethers in this game are kind of stupid in general. They make coming back to the ledge to safe, whereas if they didnt have it and were trying to recover, it would be a stock since Im sheik.

What I would argue would be very fair for sheik is to have a lower hitbox on her jab. I've found myself trying to jab reset and having the attack going straight over people. That's just kind of annoying. Also, characters like snake and squirtle have dtilt and an additional new attack for when theyre crawling. If sheik could get a crawling attack that was less crouch cancellable than her other moves, I think it would be fair, since crouch cancelling is so effective with heavy characters being viable.

 

[Missile]

In a stage with platforms, pits chaingrab does not make that much of a difference. That's about 95 percent of the stages. The grab might be slightly tweaked, but I won't expect it to make a huge difference, and it might still chaingrab them anyway.

See, either you're against "free" chaingrabs as a whole, or you're not. You can't accept a chaingrab on X character and be against it on Y character. While Sheik has a chaingrab, it's only doable if your opponent has bad DI. Her grab game is pretty fair. It's 50/50 to either player/ She no longer has a "free" chaingrab, unlike Pit on a lot of the cast, Lucas on some of the cast, Ness on a lot of the cast, Olimar's throw that can't be DI'd behind him, therefore putting you in a chaingrab situation, and so on.

There is no character in this game with downsides that arent exploitable. And sonic's spin attacks are very easy to interrupt, just throw out any high priority attack to stuff his approach. In fact, I would say that sheik counters sonic.

His raw speed and his janky hitboxes mean that only high priority, highly compomising attacks only CLANK on his spin attacks. I play a Sonic almost every day, and his Sonic is better than any US player's Sonic. If used right, he's unpunishable with most of the cast.

I bet Melee needles could've done some serious damage to his approach, but, sadly, THEY WERE REMOVED.

Fox isnt the best in this game? If thats what you sincerely believe, you're entitled to, I suppose, but I would still say he's the top. Lucas is also an extremely solid character, but fox is still better. It's not the kill potential that makes fox good, or even the combos. Of course they help, but the part of him that makes him so much better than the cast is his neutral game. Even with the laser nerfs, he can stay in the neutral, where he dominates the entire cast. Even if he wasn't the best, the fact that the characters have undeveloped metas, whereas fox can still use his old strategies puts him at an edge. Lucas might be around his level, but I would still argue fox is the better character, solely due to his speed.

So if Fox couldn't kill at all, he would still be top tier simply because of lasers that are for the most part avoidable? You said it, this game has 95% stages with platforms... To avoid double lasers on most stages you just have to get on a platform. With a few characters you can just crawl underneath them, too, e.g. Sheik, Samus, Snake.

Get hit by a few lasers? He tacks on about 3 % with around 5-6 lasers. That's not really a threat. If you get angsty playing a Fox that is laser camping it's your fault. His shine doesn't even clank with most stuff anymorebecuase his 1-frame intangibility got removed. Wolf still has his intangibility, though, which was 6 frames in brawl lol.

If you still think Fox is the best, go watch Bar Wars 2 Chillin vs Hax. Watch Apex 2014 M2K vs Armada, or SKTAR3 M2K vs Emukiller. M2K himself said he's no longer the best character. The only reason he's still a good character is because the people who use him have done so for years, and his tech stuff can be done by anybody because they're no secrets.

I wasn't arguing that sheik was invincible on frame one of her up b. By startup, I simply meant prior to disappearance, which you showed. That was my fault for not specifying.

What you meant isn't what you said. She is intangible RIGHT BEFORE dissapearing, not even "prior" is a good choice of a word, because it could mean "since the first frame before she dissapears". The way you convey a message is very important to understand "what you mean", if you're not being explicit.

With your explanation of how Sheik's up-b is "invincible" (which again is wrong, she is intangible, and there IS a difference), you made it seem like she's "invincible" from frame one, because you obviously omitted the fact that when Shino Stalling, ledge intangibility comes into play.

As for buffs for sheik, the melee needles would be nice to have back, but again aren't that necessary. They were helpful, but by no means centralizing to her play. Better hitboxes on her dair would be nice too, but to change it to a meteor would be too much imo. And as for the tether, I would rather have the attack completely scrapped and replaced, than to have a tether with it. Tethers in this game are kind of stupid in general. They make coming back to the ledge to safe, whereas if they didnt have it and were trying to recover, it would be a stock since Im sheik.

Melee needles were like they were for a reason and they should be brought back period. An uncharged Mewtwo shadow ball eats through all 5 needles if it hits them. Any attack will break a needle as it flies. Some,if not most (e.g. Samus, Snake, Fox, etc) up-b attacks will break needles now.

So the needles now have very limited use, as they were simply nerfed, like every other melee character that was top tier, on the grounds that "it was broken" in that game.

I don't think the PMBR has enough experience to make a call like that. The lead developer team has 0 "pro" players. Some of the actual pro players are complaining on how unbalanced the game is. Why do you think no one but M2K and Armada play Project M? I don't see Mango, PPMD, Hungrybox, Ken, Amsa, Axe, Hax, Leffen, or any other of the current top 10 players playing it very frequently. You've seen them once or twice going to a local tournament. They're not willing to travel for Project M. Armada plays as much as he can when he's in the US and he loves Pit, and obviously exploits what he has that is pretty unfair but takes skill to pull off which I guess is the lucky trade-off.
Mew2king on the other hand plays every single smash except for 64, so it's no surprise he's into PM, regardless of how unbalanced as he says it is.

What I would argue would be very fair for sheik is to have a lower hitbox on her jab. I've found myself trying to jab reset and having the attack going straight over people. That's just kind of annoying. Also, characters like snake and squirtle have dtilt and an additional new attack for when theyre crawling. If sheik could get a crawling attack that was less crouch cancellable than her other moves, I think it would be fair, since crouch cancelling is so effective with heavy characters being viable.

Jab resetting is a situational option that if buffed would represent a negligible improvement for Sheik, is it doesn't hit only a few characters.. I have no problems if it gets "buffed". She needs improvements on areas with more impact. She needs to stop being this watered down Melee Sheik that she is in this current build of the game.

 

[foxygrandpa]

I am for chaingrabs, on fox falco and wolf. Chaingrabs on everyone else are a little unfair, but even so they dont make a huge difference as it is. Sheik's melee chaingrab however, made a large difference and made about 15 characters unviable in the competitive setting. That is not fair by any circumstance.

Obviously fox's kill power is a great asset, but the lasers are still a large part of his game. A fox with a solid neutral can still beat a lot of the characters (see dehf at apex).
Hax lost to chillin due to not knowing the matchup. Armada can beat foxes in melee using peach. Does this mean that peach is better than fox? Obviously not. Armada beat m2k, its not necessarily pit beating fox. As a matter of fact, I recall him saying somewhere that pit still loses to fox, because of the poor punish game at low percents (im not sure on that though, so dont take my word for it)

What m2k says isnt necessarily law. M2k also said that m2 was fair, and that he knew the character better than everyone else. And then a random who claimed m2 was broken bopped him with the same character, and said that he was only able to because m2 is broken. I play an amazing link player everyday, and link is not god tier like m2k claims he is. There may be a character better than fox, but very little people have shown it so far. When someone is beaten, it doesnt mean their character is worse. Look at zero for example. He uses the same character as armada, and has solid placings because he's a really good player. However, armada's pit still probably has an edge on his.

As for pro players not wanting to play, the argument can be spun around, pal. what about the pros who have? Like Fly, Dehf, Ally? The games obviously not perfect right now, hence it being called a DEMO. When the game is finished, everything will be a lot more certain and fair. M2k is still probably better than zero, despite zero using pit.

And I still hold that sheik's new grab system is as fair as good as the old one, and much more fair. Look at bowser for example. In melee, he could get 0-deathed by one grab. That limits the interaction between players, and makes it boring to play. It's not fun to play sheik, if she plays exactly the same on every character in the game and takes no adaptation, let alone fair. Sheik needs minor buffs, but nothing too big. Although some characters are clearly better than others, the gap is not as big as you're making it out to be. Keep experimenting with the new grab system. It's really good, and fair. It's a 50 50 on the chance of getting a regrab, but the throws are fast enough so that the opponent cant simply react to your throws. Also, even if you can't regrab because they have proper DI, you can follow up with a dash attack on some characters. Also, bthrow into tippered upsmash is an insanely good kill option, that she lacks in even melee. Dthrow can go into fsmash (which was buffed since melee) on a lot of characters too. She's still plenty good the way she is, and on par with a lot of brawl characters.

 

[Deleted member]

i've never seen so many wrong things in one thread, cannot be saved, lock imo

 

[ECHOnce]

His raw speed and his janky hitboxes mean that only high priority, highly compomising attacks only CLANK on his spin attacks. I play a Sonic almost every day, and his Sonic is better than any US player's Sonic. If used right, he's unpunishable with most of the cast.

I bet Melee needles could've done some serious damage to his approach, but, sadly, THEY WERE REMOVED.

Lol k.

Melee needles were like they were for a reason and they should be brought back period. An uncharged Mewtwo shadow ball eats through all 5 needles if it hits them. Any attack will break a needle as it flies. Some,if not most (e.g. Samus, Snake, Fox, etc) up-b attacks will break needles now.

So the needles now have very limited use, as they were simply nerfed, like every other melee character that was top tier, on the grounds that "it was broken" in that game.

Melee needles were like they were because Melee wasn't very balanced. It's true that character's now have projectiles and recoveries that beat PM needles, and that's pretty ok. No move in the game should win in every situation it's put in. Work for your needle hit confirms/gimps - if Sheik's needles just went through every recovery and stopped it, then Sheik would just have a 99% chance of a guaranteed kill every time an opponent falls off the ledge, and that just kills any depth to edge guarding and making reads on them in said scenario. Despite any arguments against such, there's a pretty common trend in moves between their this-gives-me-free-kills factor and being widely considered broken. Just make sure to catch them when they're not using said projectiles or recoveries and you're set; it's not like they're gonna be spamming said moves the whole match. And even if they are...read and punish?

I don't think the PMBR has enough experience to make a call like that. The lead developer team has 0 "pro" players.

Just because someone isn't a top -20 professional Melee player doesn't mean they're not considered professional otherwise. I don't know many PMBR, but at the very least, as a Zelda main I can say that the best PM Zelda is a former PMBR. Plenty of PMBR pop up as names to look out for in tournaments. They're inducted as members because they have years of experience with programming and balancing character, the latter of which does happen to need plenty of credible knowledge on the game from playing or watching. You shouldn't make light of them and bite the hands that feed you.

- - -​

You clearly are fairly knowledgable on Sheik dude, and it's always great to know people with that much extra knowledge are on the boards to help others out. Creating a thread for discussion on ideas for buffs/nerfs is always fine too, but you shouldn't approach it from as aggressive of a standpoint as you have here. If you choose to blatantly argue out every point, rather than taking suggestions for what they are - suggestions, it's not constructive in any way for anybody. You asked us some questions, and we're just trying to offer what we know so we can all build on it. There's no need for such aggression towards every detail we bring up. Learn to take criticism/suggestions...you'd be doing the Sheik boards a favor if you put all of your good Sheik know-how to better use instead.

On that note, considering how politically and technically correct you seem to like being and to keep this on topic, I'm gonna take the chance to go back to your fairly insulting first response to me concerning Peach's and Bowser's D-airs. This guy that "had no idea what he's talking about" (or whatever you said) also happened to compile pages of moves with meteor/spike properties in a previous thread. I pretty clearly stated I wasn't sure and may be wrong, so excuse my error about Peach's; I don't play the MU often. Bowser's D-air, on the other hand, does meteor on the last hitbox frame. Just something to keep in mind for the next time you feel the need to respond sarcastically - you're not always right.

 

[MonkUnit]

Regarding the changes in stage ceiling heights, the higher ceilings were made to those stages so that they would be more in line with other Melee stages. Before the change, they had lower ceilings than the average Melee stage which lead to earlier vertical kills than you would normally have on a Melee stage. Also, we did not remove Sheik's needle hurtboxes as there were none to begin with. Brawl needles do not have a hurtbox but Melee's do.

 

[Missile]

What m2k says isnt necessarily law.

I never said it was. Input from top players is important because they have a stronger mastery of the fundamentals that smash requires, like every other. That helps their advice/opinion have more weight, because you can't say their complaint is due to their skill not being necessarily good enough to be able to make the calls they make.

The games obviously not perfect right now, hence it being called a DEMO. When the game is finished, everything will be a lot more certain and fair.

It's no longer a Demo. Hasn't been since 3.00 came out.

And I still hold that sheik's new grab system is as fair as good as the old one, and much more fair.

And I fully agree with this. By itself, it is fair. You can't however, judge every move on its own.

 

[Missile]

Melee needles were like they were because Melee wasn't very balanced. It's true that character's now have projectiles and recoveries that beat PM needles, and that's pretty ok.

Melee was very balanced amongst its best characters. They all had a specific playstyle they catered to. Each had their unique traits, and they all had their ups and downs. No single character was win-all do-all, not even Fox. Being the most used doesn't make him the most powerful. Fox was godlike on some stages with some characters, and gets wrecked on other stages against some characters.

Balanced isn't having every character broken. Balance is having every character have their upsides and downsides, have them reward the correct type of player using them, etc. Right now, Project M has a lot of broken characters, and that's not "balance".

No move in the game should win in every situation it's put in. Work for your needle hit confirms/gimps - if Sheik's needles just went through every recovery and stopped it, then Sheik would just have a 99% chance of a guaranteed kill every time an opponent falls off the ledge, and that just kills any depth to edge guarding and making reads on them in said scenario.

Sheik doesn't have a guaranteed kill on anyone with needles because they have to be aimed properly and thrown at the correct time. If she hit you with it she deserves it. Plus, the needles are just one of her tools to do the only thing she is good at, which is edgeguarding.

She has no neutral game at all. She makes up for it with everything else. That's not "broken". If it was broken, she would've been in Metaknight tier, but in Melee.

Despite any arguments against such, there's a pretty common trend in moves between their this-gives-me-free-kills factor and being widely considered broken. Just make sure to catch them when they're not using said projectiles or recoveries and you're set; it's not like they're gonna be spamming said moves the whole match. And even if they are...read and punish?

It's easier said than done.

Just because someone isn't a top -20 professional Melee player doesn't mean they're not considered professional otherwise. I don't know many PMBR, but at the very least, as a Zelda main I can say that the best PM Zelda is a former PMBR. Plenty of PMBR pop up as names to look out for in tournaments. They're inducted as members because they have years of experience with programming and balancing character, the latter of which does happen to need plenty of credible knowledge on the game from playing or watching. You shouldn't make light of them and bite the hands that feed you.

As above, being a top player (Brawl or Melee) means you have an understanding on important fundamentals of the game, taking out the "lack-of-skill" factor when having to make a call for balance comes into play.

Personally, I don't give credibility to every PMBR member being "the best X-Character" in Project M simply because the PMBR has influence over a character's balancing during development, without necessarily having strong fundamentals. This is evident on a lot of characters.

- - -​

You clearly are fairly knowledgable on Sheik dude, and it's always great to know people with that much extra knowledge are on the boards to help others out. Creating a thread for discussion on ideas for buffs/nerfs is always fine too, but you shouldn't approach it from as aggressive of a standpoint as you have here. If you choose to blatantly argue out every point, rather than taking suggestions for what they are - suggestions, it's not constructive in any way for anybody.

Thank you. I don't necessarily aim to please everybody. I don't have the ability to express myself making absolutely everyone comfortable. That's a flaw I know I have. I would rather say something that will possibly help and give a different perspective, instead of keeping quiet in fear of making someone uncomfortable.

You asked us some questions, and we're just trying to offer what we know so we can all build on it. There's no need for such aggression towards every detail we bring up. Learn to take criticism/suggestions...you'd be doing the Sheik boards a favor if you put all of your good Sheik know-how to better use instead.

I welcome you to do so, but also keep in mind that I will not agree with everything everyone says. This is a discussion (hopefully) and if I am against your opinion for a certain reason, I will give an explanation why and I expect you to do the same.

On that note, considering how politically and technically correct you seem to like being and to keep this on topic, I'm gonna take the chance to go back to your fairly insulting first response to me concerning Peach's and Bowser's D-airs. This guy that "had no idea what he's talking about" (or whatever you said) also happened to compile pages of moves with meteor/spike properties in a previous thread. I pretty clearly stated I wasn't sure and may be wrong, so excuse my error about Peach's; I don't play the MU often. Bowser's D-air, on the other hand, does meteor on the last hitbox frame. Just something to keep in mind for the next time you feel the need to respond sarcastically - you're not always right.

My apologies.

i've never seen so many wrong things in one thread, cannot be saved, lock imo

Please explain, before making such a decisive statement.

Regarding the changes in stage ceiling heights, the higher ceilings were made to those stages so that they would be more in line with other Melee stages. Before the change, they had lower ceilings than the average Melee stage which lead to earlier vertical kills than you would normally have on a Melee stage. Also, we did not remove Sheik's needle hurtboxes as there were none to begin with. Brawl needles do not have a hurtbox but Melee's do.

I don't mean to be insulting, but regardless of how they were in Brawl, the Melee top characters were for the most part given their Melee attributes. With that said, I am inclined to believe I am right, because of this, specifically:

 

[Player -0]

Why do you think no one but M2K and Armada play Project M? I don't see Mango, PPMD, Hungrybox, Ken, Amsa, Axe, Hax, Leffen, or any other of the current top 10 players playing it very frequently. You've seen them once or twice going to a local tournament. They're not willing to travel for Project M. Armada plays as much as he can when he's in the US and he loves Pit, and obviously exploits what he has that is pretty unfair but takes skill to pull off which I guess is the lucky trade-off.

HBox plays Project M, Ken does a lot, Amsa does (Lucario), Axe does, Leffen does (ZSS + Fox).


The reason you don't see most of those players at solely P:M tournaments is because there aren't many big solo P:M tournaments, they're top players in MELEE and it takes time to learn match ups and intricacies of a different game, and going to travel to win at a game you don't play at the absolute top level isn't what people with the motivation to make money do.

 

[Missile]

They don't play it competitively. They play it casually, and once or twice a year they play it at a tournament. That was my main point.

 

[Player -0]

Axe plays it regularly at Arizona tournaments. I think Amsa does too.


You said your point was that they don't play it because it's unbalanced. Ken thinks Project M is great, Axe plays, Amsa plays.

 

[Shadic]

I don't mean to be insulting, but regardless of how they were in Brawl, the Melee top characters were for the most part given their Melee attributes. With that said, I am inclined to believe I am right, because of this, specifically:

..Are you seriously favoring a frequently incorrect (See: your example) unofficial Wiki vs. the actually correct comment that @ MonkUnit (A Project M Developer) made?

....

 

[Fique]

I don't mean to sound annoying, but Sheik does share the move that was added to every character in SSBB - the footstool. She also gets incredible height from it, making it a great deep gimping tool (theoretically, of course). Perhaps a combined edge -guarding toolset of soft, lingering hitboxes, and her awesome footstool height should be considered in judging her overall balance.

It would also seem (albeit incompletely) to resolve her need for a reworked move with meteor smash/spike properties.

 

[Wasp]

if footstool is a meteor and every character has this, then yeah, the need to another meteor/spike is decreasing, but still a damaging meteor would always be better and easier to perform.

 

[Missile]

..Are you seriously favoring a frequently incorrect (See: your example) unofficial Wiki vs. the actually correct comment that @ MonkUnit (A Project M Developer) made?

....

I'm not claiming to know more than a developer but the thing is that nowhere did I find a claim that said "her needles were mostly left like brawl, except you can now tap them once and throw a single needle instead of double tapping".

On the contrary, here's a claim on the website www.projectmgame.com for Sheik:

"[...]but there are changes worth noting. Her needles now function like her Melee needles: [....]

But, the thing is, they don't... So it's a confusimg matter. Either she's Sheik from Melee or Sheik from Brawl, or she's a hybrid, but claiming she's Melee Sheik and then having someone from the development team tell me "we did not remove Sheik's needle hurtboxes because Brawl needles." is both contradictory and confusing.

Is the site also not a credible source?

I don't mean to sound annoying, but Sheik does share the move that was added to every character in SSBB - the footstool. She also gets incredible height from it, making it a great deep gimping tool (theoretically, of course). Perhaps a combined edge -guarding toolset of soft, lingering hitboxes, and her awesome footstool height should be considered in judging her overall balance.

It would also seem (albeit incompletely) to resolve her need for a reworked move with meteor smash/spike properties.

Hey man! Sup?
She doesn't really need a meteor. I brought the lack of meteor point up as an argument as to why she has the tools she has in Melee. She has tradeoffs as a character, she's not almighty. She excels at what she does, but she doesn't do well compared the other top characters in other areas.

 

[Player -0]

Footstools are pretty much spikes with a set knockback, you can't cancel out of them for a few seconds but if the opponent is doing a move then they won't go into the footstooled animation.

 

[Nuttre]

I completely forgot about Yoshi's meteor f-air. Pika's u-air isn't a meteor which is why I didn't count it.

Your phrase was a "downward killing option". I would put this down as a quite powerful downward killing option due to its speed

 

[Missile]

Your phrase was a "downward killing option". I would put this down as a quite powerful downward killing option due to its speed

I guess you are right and I should've phrased it better.

I got nitpicked.

 

[Boomhound]

The PM team simply hates Sheik.

Just kidding - PM Sheik is kinda going through the same problems Falco is, i.e. having to adapt to new/buffed characters while remaining almost identical to Melee.
Fox can handle this, Falco can too I believe due to his not caring how good the enemy's recovery is with his Dair and stage control.

Unfortunately Sheik never was an offensive/stage-control oriented character, and her gimping ability has indirectly been nerfed through others having strong recoveries.

Sheik is still a beautifully designed character and I wouldn't dismiss her on account of PM MUs as her adaption to these is part of her development in itself- I kinda count it as a blessing because it gives a lot of Melee characters the opportunity to grow further.
As an added note if PM characters' recoveries truly are getting a nerf in the next patch, we might see Sheik climb up the tier list where she belongs.

I still have a lot of faith in PM Sheik, her strong fundamentals haven't been changed and she has enough options to secure herself as a strong/viable character- I hope that with some optimism and creativity players will push her further.