What is the Idea Behind Long Air Dodges in This game?

[Artmastercorey]

One thing I cant understand is the reasoning behind long air dodges in this game. There are some moments where you have no option but to dodge to get back on stage. Say for example if parahna plant is about to snipe you with a spike ball and your character cant avoid unless you dodge, but if you dodge you die, if you dont dodge you also die. You cant really defend yourself (getting up from ledge is slow too for example) and Im just trying to see if perhaps there is a greater plan to all of this that I just dont understand. As of right now im really confused with the lack of defensive options/being forced to get hit in key situations.

 

[kirby3021]

If you have no option but to dodge to get back on stage and you realize you will die no matter what you do, you've made the mistake of being too predictable in your recovery and your opponent has realized that. Mix up your recoveries - come in low, come in high, throw out some aerial attacks. I usually save my air dodges for times when my opponent is charging a forward or up smash at the ledge and use it to get past them. If I get a good read on how they try to edge guard, I'll use it to get past their aerials as well.
A singular long air dodge is intended, as I understand it, to make you think more carefully about your options. Instead of mashing air dodge, you have to read your opponent and time it right (when it's the appropriate time).

 

[Artmastercorey]

If you have no option but to dodge to get back on stage and you realize you will die no matter what you do, you've made the mistake of being too predictable in your recovery and your opponent has realized that. Mix up your recoveries - come in low, come in high, throw out some aerial attacks. I usually save my air dodges for times when my opponent is charging a forward or up smash at the ledge and use it to get past them. If I get a good read on how they try to edge guard, I'll use it to get past their aerials as well.
A singular long air dodge is intended, as I understand it, to make you think more carefully about your options. Instead of mashing air dodge, you have to read your opponent and time it right (when it's the appropriate time).

Thank you for your reply. I hear what you are saying. But even so with mix ups and best play there are moments when you literally are in a tight situation and all you can do is dodge. I use young link for example and if I get knocked off the stage my options for recovery are limited. I suppose it depends on the character in what your options are, but Im trying to think in the mind of the creators/Sakurai as to why they felt removing defensive options made for a better experience. Or perhaps they feel it just makes the game faster/more exciting if you die alittle quicker/easier but as a player it can be frustrating.

 

[channel_KYX]

I assume the idea is that you should defend more with (counter) attacks and less with blocks and dodges.
Taking your example with, you could use your arsenal to disturb your opponent's edge guarding game, instead of dodging through it. This also makes for more active off-stage play.

 

[MG_3989]

It’s more of an offensive game than Brawl and 4 so recovering isn’t as easy or straightforward. Edgeguaridng is huge in this game so you have to be ready for it. Like it’s been said before you’ve gotta mix it up. Come in with hitboxes yourself. Airdodging is a very viable option to recover though you just can’t abuse it. Mix up your momentum with moves before you airdodge. Use bombs as Link. Use your up b sometimes. Recovering isn’t supposed to be easy in Ultimate

 

[Artmastercorey]

Yes link has more options for recovering for sure, though like I said I personally play young link but not trying to turn this into character disccussion. And I completly know and understand what everyone is saying about mixing up, that stuff is basic knowledge i feel , what Im saying is no matter how good you are there is a point where you get knocked off the level and you have to find a way back. You may find yourself in a moment where you have no more projectiles (if any), and you did all you could but your ONLY option is to dodge an attack, and even though you dodged you cant up B because the dodge is soo long. I just wanted to know if there was something Im missing with the wierd mechanic choices to make air dodges soooooo long. Im just not seeing how it improves the gameplay. Is this a change people enjoy so far?

 

[MG_3989]

Yes link has more options for recovering for sure, though like I said I personally play young link but not trying to turn this into character disccussion. And I completly know and understand what everyone is saying about mixing up, that stuff is basic knowledge i feel , what Im saying is no matter how good you are there is a point where you get knocked off the level and you have to find a way back. You may find yourself in a moment where you have no more projectiles (if any), and you did all you could but your ONLY option is to dodge an attack, and even though you dodged you cant up B because the dodge is soo long. I just wanted to know if there was something Im missing with the wierd mechanic choices to make air dodges soooooo long. Im just not seeing how it improves the gameplay. Is this a change people enjoy so far?

I enjoy it a lot. It makes edgeguarding much more prominent and the game faster. The directional air dodge is supposed to have a ton of lag because it’s a powerful option and you’re supposed to use it to magnet ledge usually or mix up positioning on stage

I just like the more offensive play style and I like that there are more ways to take stocks. Recovering isn’t safe in this game with most characters and that’s fine because the reward for winning neutral knocking somebody off stage should be worth it and the opponent shouldn’t get an easy way back on stage

 

[Mischiiii]

I like the airdodge mechanic. A dodge is good to have. But if you can dodge infinitely in the air it gets too easy in my opinion. If you are getting knocked off or up you are in a disadvantage stage. So basically you did something wrong in the first place and therefore you should have a harder time to come back so the player who did good gets a reward. Thats how i see it.

Young Link is btw one of the better chars to come back with as you can disrupt your enemy with attacks, bomb, boomerang and arrows. Also you can use fast falling to catch the opponent of guard. Up B has a large hitbox as well. So some edgeguards don’t even work. I regularly hit people with up b as I recover with link.

 

[MG_3989]

I like the airdodge mechanic. A dodge is good to have. But if you can dodge infinitely in the air it gets too easy in my opinion. If you are getting knocked off or up you are in a disadvantage stage. So basically you did something wrong in the first place and therefore you should have a harder time to come back so the player who did good gets a reward. Thats how i see it.

Young Link is btw one of the better chars to come back with as you can disrupt your enemy with attacks, bomb, boomerang and arrows. Also you can use fast falling to catch the opponent of guard. Up B has a large hitbox as well. So some edgeguards don’t even work. I regularly hit people with up b as I recover with link.

Exactly my thoughts. You should be rewarded for the advantage of knocking somebody off the stage and winning neutral. Especially because knocking a good player off stage is pretty difficult. It’s one of the reasons I love Ultimate and didn’t play Smash 4 really

 

[channel_KYX]

I like the airdodge mechanic. A dodge is good to have. But if you can dodge infinitely in the air it gets too easy in my opinion. If you are getting knocked off or up you are in a disadvantage stage. So basically you did something wrong in the first place and therefore you should have a harder time to come back so the player who did good gets a reward. Thats how i see it.

Young Link is btw one of the better chars to come back with as you can disrupt your enemy with attacks, bomb, boomerang and arrows. Also you can use fast falling to catch the opponent of guard. Up B has a large hitbox as well. So some edgeguards don’t even work. I regularly hit people with up b as I recover with link.

Nothing to add. I, too, like the mechanics, they make for a more interesting game both on and off stage.

 

[Sean²]

Being hit offstage should always put you in disadvantage. That's a thing I really hated about Smash 4, chasing someone offstage was a bad idea for a lot of characters because of the airdodge system. Someone with an above average recovery could just airdodge then immediately put you in disadvantage or just straight up kill you - for trying to take advantage of the situation you created.

I'd actually not be upset if they got rid of the neutral airdodge altogether and just stuck with the directional airdodges as they are.

 

[MG_3989]

Being hit offstage should always put you in disadvantage. That's a thing I really hated about Smash 4, chasing someone offstage was a bad idea for a lot of characters because of the airdodge system. Someone with an above average recovery could just airdodge then immediately put you in disadvantage or just straight up kill you - for trying to take advantage of the situation you created.

I'd actually not be upset if they got rid of the neutral airdodge altogether and just stuck with the directional airdodges as they are.

I honestly barely even use neutral airdodges and while they don’t have as much lag as directional air dodges they still have a lot of lag and they’re sure as hell easier to punish then a good directional air dodge. Learning how and when to use your directional air dodge to reset neutral or even in neutral is a skill. Wavelanding exists, mix ups exist, unexpected directions exist, momentum canceling exists. There are ways to use directional air dodge as a high reward play. High risk but high reward

I guess as a Ness player you’re kind of forced to learn how to make directional air dodges work in your advantage and while it doesn’t always work recovering isn’t really a problem for me with Ness (I mean his recovery sucking is so overblown anyway). Once you use a character that truly needs to take advantage of directional air dodges you learn to love them. Don’t get me wrong I also love reading and publishing them. Again, high risk high reward play

 

[xZRx]

There have been a lot of changes besides just the air dodge to make gameplay faster as well as more offensive too, perfect shield, individual move tweaks, etc

Get a friend to help with training your recovery game (or your 'not getting hit off stage to begin with game' ) to give your self new options

 

[leafgreen386]

Defense is not free. Getting back to the ledge is not free - or it shouldn't be. Honestly, it's already too easy to recover in this game as it is. All too often you can recover low and just snap to the ledge, and there's nothing your opponent can do to stop you. If you're somehow in a situation where you can't avoid dying, it means you made a big mistake to get there and probably *shouldn't* be able to survive.

 

[Ratmouse]

I don't have the time to read through all of the replies ATM, so someone else may have brought this up, but...

Do you know about Neutral Air Dodges (air dodge without a directional input)? It doesn't have the same helpless state that follows a Directional Air Dodge. That should allow you to dodge an attack, and still attempt to recover when you're in situations like what you described in OP.