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What *is* 'Ganon-like'?

prepostmoderism

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WARNING! GEEKY OVER-ANALYZATION OF A FICTIONAL CHARACTER AHEAD! YOU'VE BEEN WARNED!

I've read a few posts here that seem to complain that Ganon's moves are not 'Ganon-like' and should be changed / new moves should be more 'in line with his character'. The exception I take to this is that there's a slight lack of context regarding what 'Ganon-like' even is. Allow me to nerd out and over-analyze the character.

Why Ganondorf fights like he does...

To explain this requires a little dissection of the Gerudos; Ganondorf's people. The Gerudos are a nearly all-female tribe of humans who (in the Adult1 / Child1 timelines) inhabit Hylia and Termina. They are adept thieves and warriors, and are (in)famous for thier martial skill.

Gerudos ostensibly have three fighting styles. When Link encounters them in the Gerudo Fortress in OOT, they are extremely lithe and acrobatic. The Gerudo martial arts seem to lean toward this fleet combat style - which makes sense, considering a group exclusively comprised of females would need to press their superior agility in battle with the predominantly male, armored soldiery of Hylia. Since the most experienced and masterful practitioners of these arts would be the ones to teach a young Ganondorf - thier future God-King - 'agile' moves such as Uair, Nair, both Rising Attacks and others begin to make much more sense.

Next, when Link encounters Iron Knuckles (which, if you'll notice - are all Gerudos inside the armor), their fighting styles are that of mighty bruisers. This shows that the Gerudo are not unfamiliar with such tactics - making Ganondorf's more 'powerful' moves - Ftilt, Dair, Fair, etc., a bit more congruous. Constant physical training tends to make males larger than females, which explains why Ganondorf isn't a smaller, more svelte fighter. When Ganondorf's size would normally prevent him from training with females - or developing more bulk - they'd just bust out the Iron Knuckle armor. The resulting positive feedback loop could also explain why Ganondorf is as huge as he is. Later in his teens his training may have organically shifted from quickness to power. Not to mention... you know - his various 'duties' as the only male in a society entirely comprised of females. The guy got a lot of exercise, in any case.

Thirdly, there's Koume and Kotake. They are among the only Gerudos to showcase magical ability, and it just so happens that they served as Ganondorf's surrogate mothers. It makes sense that they should pass on their knowledge to their son - destined to be their king. This explains all the purple stuff. Lightning and whatnot.

All in all, Ganondorf is a man who was trained constantly - since an early age - by a tribe of accomplished, agile warriors. Though the techniques he was taught focused on the dexterous and precise, his constant conditioning may have been what made him large and powerful. Furthermore, he was likely given close instruction by his surrogate mothers in the dark arts, more than explaining his magical prowess.

So it's okay that Ganondorf can do flips and s***. There's a reason he's simultaneously a ninja and warrior AND wizard.

Windmill spin-kicks are perfectly within his comfort zone and I hope that the devs don't change that based on lack of context.
 

Electric Tuba

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I agree with a lot (almost all) of your ideas.

You can probably start a pretty lively discussion with this in the Smash 4 Unconfirmed Veterans thread for Ganon (though he's almost definitely confirmed..).
Many people have posted wanting a more magic based fighting style based off of what he is explicitly shown doing in the game (I assume, there may be other evidence).

I prefer your hybrid canon, though, especially since he has the dang triforce of power. Why would a dude with the triforce of power not through a couple punches? (ra ra it's magical power rara i know OoT better than you gra ra From the magic Ganon fans)
 

prepostmoderism

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I was thinking, and I think it's also worth mentioning that it makes sense Ganondorf does not (and should not!) use a sword.

In human form, Ganondorf rarely uses weaponry against his enemies. In TP he uses the Sword of Sages against Link, but this is done as a sort of ironic insult against the Sages rather than a deliberate combat choice. In the final battle against him in WW he performs some rather elaborate martial arts on Link, but *does* draw steel against Link and Zelda together. However, when he tires of Zelda firing light arrows at him, he bounds over, puts away his sword, and strikes her with his bare hand. Other than those instances, (and the instances wherein he is armed via transformation) he is chiefly depicted as using his fists / magic rather than weapons.

My theory behind this is simple: Ganondorf cannot touch the Master Sword. Rather than fight Link the way he would prefer / is most comfortable with - bare-handed - he must use an implement. He is only ever shown using weaponry when he is up against Link and that godd***ed(blessed?) sword.

Alternatively he's just an egotist, and wouldn't lower himself to his enemy by using a weapon unless he was pressed. I mean, he plays his own friggin' theme song on a pipe-organ while you climb his tower in OOT. Dude's head is a little big. He's been told all his life about how great he is and how he's going to be the greatest and such.

Either way, I don't think Ganondorf would really bother bringing a sword if he knew he was about to fight Kirby or something.
 

CORY

wut
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You can probably start a pretty lively discussion with this in the Smash 4 Unconfirmed Veterans thread for Ganon (though he's almost definitely confirmed..)
well, there's video footage from the esrb leaks showing brawl model and several brawl attacks (dsmash, jab and i think ftilt?), so he's definitely confirmed and is most likely basically brawl ganon.

there was also a minor leak where you could see ganon in the bubble of some panel during one of the early smash4 trailers.
 

_Ganondorf_

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I agree with your Ganondorf analysis, and some of his moves like Fair, Dair, Ftilt all fit Ganon very well. But some don't... His up smash in PM (and Melee) is a little ridicules. Sure he is trained in martial arts but come on. Also I think the move is not that good, it has horrible horizontal range and pretty bad vertical, he can just get an uppercut that hits horizontaly and on top with a bit of magic instead and it will get a better function.

Nair is well and good but still meh.

Fsmash just pisses me off why an elbow? For Falcon it makes sense to send out a quick short elbow. For Ganon.. why not extend your fist out? hit with it all the way? (I support Warlock punch for new fsmash btw)

As a fan of Ganondorf as a character I like the way he feels in Smash but some move are just... Besides a few pure magic attacks like Dead mans volley, OoT ground punch and maybe a teleport couldn't hurt, maybe after the elbow fsmash he attacks with his sword ala Twilight Princess could only make his moveset more interesting.

Everything else can stay the same I love playing as Ganon in smash.
 

_Ganondorf_

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Because elbows IRL are more powerful...
As a 1st degree black belt in Kyokushin Karate, I can tell you;
1) no one uses an elbow that way, it looks extremely unnatural.
2) for the motion Ganon (and Falcon) is doing a full extension of the arm would generate more power.
3) elbows are used for a short range strikes while in a clinch (grapple) to usually very specific points.
*Hey maybe his pummel attack for his grab can be elbows instead of knees, or both!
4) elbows aren't inherently more powerful, you can generate a lot of power with them very quickly but a full velocity "hay-maker" for example, would generate more force. But in general it depands how you move your feet and the motion of your hips.

As a smash player the move feels so "stubby". It doesn't cover a lot of horizontal range which I believe usually makes a majority Forward smashs useful especially slow ones which includes Ganon's.

And the the hitbox on the move is extremely close to Ganon's hurt box so it's not so safe. More horizontal range like if we were to use Warlock Punch animation, would (theoretically) extend the hitbox out and away from Ganon's hurt boxes making it;
1) a bit safer to use
2) cover more space
3) would be unique to Ganondorf (btw I love the way Warlock Punch looks, it would be nice if that animation was actually useful lol)

Over all I think Ganon only needs a few cosmetic changes for uniqueness, one or two "true to source" moves, more coverage on his smash attacks, a good grab range and maybe if he caused more shield damage with his attacks. And I think he'll be absolutely perfect.
 

internetmovieguy

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As a 1st degree black belt in Kyokushin Karate, I can tell you;
1) no one uses an elbow that way, it looks extremely unnatural.
2) for the motion Ganon (and Falcon) is doing a full extension of the arm would generate more power.
3) elbows are used for a short range strikes while in a clinch (grapple) to usually very specific points.
*Hey maybe his pummel attack for his grab can be elbows instead of knees, or both!
4) elbows aren't inherently more powerful, you can generate a lot of power with them very quickly but a full velocity "hay-maker" for example, would generate more force. But in general it depands how you move your feet and the motion of your hips.

As a smash player the move feels so "stubby". It doesn't cover a lot of horizontal range which I believe usually makes a majority Forward smashs useful especially slow ones which includes Ganon's.

And the the hitbox on the move is extremely close to Ganon's hurt box so it's not so safe. More horizontal range like if we were to use Warlock Punch animation, would (theoretically) extend the hitbox out and away from Ganon's hurt boxes making it;
1) a bit safer to use
2) cover more space
3) would be unique to Ganondorf (btw I love the way Warlock Punch looks, it would be nice if that animation was actually useful lol)

Over all I think Ganon only needs a few cosmetic changes for uniqueness, one or two "true to source" moves, more coverage on his smash attacks, a good grab range and maybe if he caused more shield damage with his attacks. And I think he'll be absolutely perfect.
In your karate class does anyone have magic and exploding elbows?
His grabs gets alot so the range is fine. More shield damage? Are you kidding?
 

_Ganondorf_

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In your karate class does anyone have magic and exploding elbows?
His grabs gets alot so the range is fine. More shield damage? Are you kidding?
exploding elbows? what are you talking about?
It's just the way the move looks irks me since its so unnatural looking to me (especially with Ganon, with C. Falcon he is already "over the top" so why not) mostly because of 20 years of martial art training. It's a pet-peeve of mine I hate flashy over the top or just unnatural looking martial art moves in games and movies.

Also;
1) His grab range is absolutely horrendous in PM probably the worst grab range in the game, Yeah his down throw is great for follow up attacks but other characters like Marth also have great throws with great follow ups and they have a great grab range, so I don't think its an excuse.
2) I was commenting to Narpas_sword who said elbow strikes are stronger than a fully extended punch, which is simply not true and its mostly depends on how you strike with it and where. All I was saying is that its just an unnatural looking move, its also not a very useful f-smash attack (especially as slow as it is) and better alternatives could be used, and finally it looks like a carbon copy of Falcon's Fsmash so I think it would be nice if something more unique and fitting to Ganondorf was used instead (like using the Warlock Punch animation).

The shield damage is just a suggestion and obviously it needs to be tested and see how it would work, but i suggested it based on how easy it is to punish Ganon with a block since there is a lot of lag on his moves, if he had more shield damage it wouldn't be as safe for the opponent just to to always block. Either way it was just an idea.
 

Breezy

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I also like most of what you say. I like WP being his fsmash, obviously tweaked a bit, and replacing his neutral special with his OoT projectile. He definitely needs his Usmash being an uppercut as well.
 

Forlorn Penguin

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Interesting thread. I, personally never had an issue with Ganondorf's moveset being what it is, as it always did seem to suit him.

I'm more bothered by the fact that Captain Falcon has such a similar moveset. Why did they make a bounty hunter and F-Zero pilot become a flame wizard for Super Smash Bros.?
 

Narpas_sword

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weird, see, in my class, (and most know) we arent allowed to strike with elbows in sparring, as they're too dangerous and considered 'lethal'

not sure how you're taught to strike with them, but as you said 'it depends on how you hit'
 

_Ganondorf_

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weird, see, in my class, (and most know) we arent allowed to strike with elbows in sparring, as they're too dangerous and considered 'lethal'

not sure how you're taught to strike with them, but as you said 'it depends on how you hit'
(Kyokushin Karate has a lot of similar techniques to boxing and Muay Thai)
Elbow strikes are "lethal" just like any strike. the problem is that elbow strikes are usually directed towards the head (jaw and temple) and those are very sensitive areas and are usually thrown in a clinch a very close distance away from their intended target, which doesn't give the opponent much time to block or react to it, thus not really learning much from the sparring match which is what sparring is intended to do; teach/learn how to handle your self in a real fight NOT how to take elbows to the head :). Also there is no readily available form of padding to use for elbows in most Dojos/Gyms so they just aren't allowed for sparring. Actually in Kyokushin Karate's traditional tournaments (not all) there is no use boxing gloves or MMA gloves so face strikes with fist aren't allowed cause they are also "lethal". The reason for that is back in the old days all tournaments were full contact bare-knuckle, but people got hurt and lost teeth, broke bones etc. and since boxing gloves are big and bulky (this is before MMA gloves) and did not allow Gi throws they decided to not use gloves at all and just no strikes (except kicks) to the face (search YouTube for traditional Kyokushin tournaments you'll see).

Main problem with the elbow (and bare knuckles) is that on contact with the face or head its bone on bone so its just not allowed otherwise anybody who does martial arts would be disfigured lol.

Lets drop the topic in this thread though personal message me if you wanna chat about martial arts :)
 

Breezy

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You know what move is Ganon-like? His jab. Real talk, he ***** slaps someone so fast that he pulls energy in the form of electricity out of the air and destroys a face with it. It combos, it edgeguards, it breaks combos, it kills, it spaces, it punishes, it does EVERYTHING. Just like the King of Evil, it is dominant everywhere, and feared by all. Whispered of in huddled corners by those who have witnessed it in all it's hellish glory.
 

Anonistry

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(Kyokushin Karate has a lot of similar techniques to boxing and Muay Thai)
Elbow strikes are "lethal" just like any strike. the problem is that elbow strikes are usually directed towards the head (jaw and temple) and those are very sensitive areas and are usually thrown in a clinch a very close distance away from their intended target, which doesn't give the opponent much time to block or react to it, thus not really learning much from the sparring match which is what sparring is intended to do; teach/learn how to handle your self in a real fight NOT how to take elbows to the head :). Also there is no readily available form of padding to use for elbows in most Dojos/Gyms so they just aren't allowed for sparring. Actually in Kyokushin Karate's traditional tournaments (not all) there is no use boxing gloves or MMA gloves so face strikes with fist aren't allowed cause they are also "lethal". The reason for that is back in the old days all tournaments were full contact bare-knuckle, but people got hurt and lost teeth, broke bones etc. and since boxing gloves are big and bulky (this is before MMA gloves) and did not allow Gi throws they decided to not use gloves at all and just no strikes (except kicks) to the face (search YouTube for traditional Kyokushin tournaments you'll see).

Main problem with the elbow (and bare knuckles) is that on contact with the face or head its bone on bone so its just not allowed otherwise anybody who does martial arts would be disfigured lol.

Lets drop the topic in this thread though personal message me if you wanna chat about martial arts :)
Ironic then, that research is continuing to demonstrate that gloves are -worse- as far as dangerous strikes go, as they do not really have any impact on force produced, but handily help against the major factor as to why bare-handed strikes can be self-defeating: the skull is a tough object, and knuckles feel it too (indeed, back in bare-knuckle boxing? You went for the torso, mostly, because there was no way you could expect to go long trying to punch heads without padding.)

At any rate, I actually thank this topic, for the most part: People tend to forget where Ganondorf's heritage and training lies. I mean, look at Wind Waker, frankly the "best" demonstration he's given of martial fighting (as opposed to just throwing his power around like a BAWSS), where he clearly is as much a "whirling dervish" as a power fighter.

I agree with the idea of "powerfying" his moves, but more because I think it would better fit his current playstyle and help more differentiate with Falcon. I suggested in another thread before, and I will constantly keep to it in any conversation with animations, that if one wanted to do them "from scratch" and catch a theme of the Dorf, which is arrogant power, I'd look at Black Adam from Injustice. Really has the whole "I am superhuman, and I fight like it." But saying that Ganondorf CAN'T be lithe and skilled in fighting? Kind of misses who would have taught him.

Really though, everything should be his stomp. Especially his kick. Dive stomp all the way.
 

CORY

wut
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that reminds me of that joke post someone made (i forget who... maybe gez?) where they were talking about a "leak" they saw for his changed aerials.

the gifs were all his dair, just pointing in different directions. i can't say i would've been upset if it were true : p
 
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