What if Nintendo doesn't approve?

[Rikana]

Except that PM actually benefits them because that can influence people to buy Brawl. Also, we technically own the materials upon buying Brawl.

That's incorrect. The game is like an idea. You're buying the idea, not the materials. Nintendo still has rights over their materials.

 

[Phaiyte]

The fact is, you have to buy the game to play this mod. There's no pirating going on, and no one's making money off of it. If Nintendo actually gave a **** and tried to take legal action, they wouldn't have a case and nothing come of it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

the only reason something wouldn't come of it is if PMBR decided to go to court over it, and won
there's always the possibility they decide it's not worth the costs and drop the project instead

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Truth be told, mods add value to Nintendo's games, just as they add value to Valve's games (heck, Team Fortress, Deathmatch, and Counter-Strike were originally fan-made mods).

Where Nintendo picks their legal battles never make sense and they're not as altruistic towards their consumers like Valve to say the least.
Nintendo are just a bunch of assholes. My guess is that Nintendo hasn't picked this fight because they don't consider it big/important enough.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Truth be told, mods add value to Nintendo's games, just as they add value to Valve's games (heck, Team Fortress, Deathmatch, and Counter-Strike were originally fan-made mods).

Where Nintendo picks their legal battles never make sense and they're not as altruistic towards their consumers like Valve to say the least.
Nintendo are just a bunch of assholes. My guess is that Nintendo hasn't picked this fight because they don't consider it big/important enough.

 

[TeiunBomb]

However, to be fair to them, at least they haven't disapproved of us and actively gone against us like say Square Enix has done in the past.

What did Square Enix do?

Ordered a C&D for a Radical Dreamer fan English/multi-language translation after Square said they wouldn't release it internationally.
Radical Dreamer is a part of the Chrono series along with Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross btw.

That isn't the only thing that they've done involving the Chrono series. A little over nine years ago, there was project entitled Chrono Resurrection that was supposed to remake some of the more important scenes from the original game in 3D and with a symphonic score. There was also the fan game Crimson Echoes that has events that act as a bridge between Trigger and Cross; that was canned around the time of the DS rerelease, two days before it was scheduled to be released, iirc. Fortunately for the fans, a beta still managed to get leaked, and around a year later, someone in the original team flipped Squenix the double deuce and released the game anyway.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Probably said already but. I think it will be fine project m was made by some of the guys who made Super smash bros brawl (source is IGN i think)

 

[turtletank]

What no that's not right at all.

The development team is partly descended from the original developers for Brawl+

 

[CORY]

if nintendo disapproves, they'll continue their ddos attacks.

oh shi-...

 

[splat]

Serious question: after December 9th, Project M is more or less available to everyone.
Should the project get a C&D, would it be possible for people to continue working on it, just with a different name - like Project N?

 

[DrinkingFood]

Serious question: after December 9th, Project M is more or less available to everyone.

u wut m8
it's been available to everyone since like 2011

 

[210stuna]

Has Nintendo ever approved of the smash community?

Nintendo @ Smashfans: YOU CAN'T HAVE ANY FUN!

 

[Zujx]

I'm sure Nintendo's decision will follow their logic on every decision they make

Completely unpredictable with no care of logic or anything reasonable once so ever.

 

[dRevan64]

I like to think nintendo has actually realized that there's no practical purpose to killing any semblance of goodwill they've had with this admittedly meager community in order to stifle a mod that is helping to keep their game relevant. That said we're in the year 2013 and they still managed to make the EVO mistake...again.

 

[splat]

u wut m8
it's been available to everyone since like 2011

Thanks for being super helpful and answering my question -.-
We both know I was talking about the most recent version. You know, the version with awesome new engines like the Clone Engine and the Alternate Costume Engine.

My question stands:
Should the project get a C&D, would it be possible for people to continue working on it, just with a different name - like Project N?

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Thanks for being super helpful and answering my question -.-
We both know I was talking about the most recent version. You know, the version with awesome new engines like the Clone Engine and the Alternate Costume Engine.

My question stands:
Should the project get a C&D, would it be possible for people to continue working on it, just with a different name - like Project N?

I think changing the name and calling it something different would be skating on some pretty thin legal ice, as amusing as actually doing it sounds.

 

[GaretHax]

No. PM is in no way a name ever touched on by Nintendo, attacking the title of the project for copyright infringement or re-branding of intellectual property would be asinine. On top of that the intellectual property contained in PM is technically not being used in a way that would provoke or justify legal action. Long-story short your suggestion wouldn't work.

 

[trojanpooh]

A better approach would be to continue working on it in secret and occasionally "leak" updated builds onto the internet. Though honestly Nintendo has no ground to stand on legally and they know they're not in the good graces of the Smash community as is. The last thing they need right now is more press about how they bully their biggest fans.

 

[Johnknight1]

A better approach would be to continue working on it in secret and occasionally "leak" updated builds onto the internet. Though honestly Nintendo has no ground to stand on legally and they know they're not in the good graces of the Smash community as is. The last thing they need right now is more press about how they bully their biggest fans.

Especially since no one gives a crap about the Wii U, despite not being a generation outdated like the Wii was when it launched.

 

[Fortress]

You guys make it sound like that Nintendo really does not care for the smash community.

There was this whole debacle a while back at some tournament where some company tried to shut down streaming rights to this one game of theirs. You may have heard of it.

 

[Exaggeratedhonesty]

There was this whole debacle a while back at some tournament where some company tried to shut down streaming rights to this one game of theirs. You may have heard of it.

nope. never heard of it.

 

[Paradoxium]

nope. never heard of it.

Please tell me your joking

 

[MattNF]

The fact is, you have to buy the game to play this mod. There's no pirating going on, and no one's making money off of it. If Nintendo actually gave a **** and tried to take legal action, they wouldn't have a case and nothing come of it.

Not true at all. You can play Project M with pirated Brawl copies.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

Just wanted to put my two cents in.

I have seen people make the argument on these forums that Project M cannot be shut down by Nintendo because it is a "transformative" work that falls under the legal definition of fair use as defined by the Copyright Act of 1976.

I won't claim to know everything about this subject, but I do know that fair use is usually a legitimate defense only in cases of parody or commentary/criticism. Project M is neither of these. Therefore, it is not protected by law.

Someone brought up Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc. This is more of a gray area. However, as I understand it, the court ruled in favor of Galoob in this case based on the fact that cheat codes are akin to skipping pages of a book or fast-forwarding thru a movie, and they do not create a derivative work by altering the content of the game itself. So, this unfortunately doesn't apply to our beloved game.

Likewise, Micro Star v. FormGen Inc. showed that adding new content to a game (user-created levels in Duke Nukem 3D) does, in fact, constitute as a derivative work and is therefore a form of copyright infringement. Based on these cases, I don't think that the PMBR would be able to do anything if Nintendo sent out a C&D.

As many others have said before, Nintendo is most likely aware of PM's existence at this point. The fact that they have not shut it down as of today does not mean that they never will. It just means that PM is not something they are concerned about at the moment because it is not negatively affecting their sales.

Also, the argument of "Nintendo won't shut down PM because it encourages more people to buy Brawl and Wiis" is not a solid one; Nintendo wanted to shut down Melee at EVO, even though one could argue that it would've been free advertisement for the Gamecube and Melee. Furthermore, Nintendo is focusing on the Wii U right now. They've ceased production of the Wii. They don't care about selling their last-gen system or more copies of a game that's been out for almost 6 years.

I love Project M. It's the only thing I play and the best goddamn game out there, as far as I'm concerned. But I think it would be a mistake for members of the community to just blindly assume that Nintendo has no legal ground to stand on. The 3.0 Trailer has surpassed 1/4 of a million views on YouTube, and PM is becoming fairly big and notable. Smash 4 is being released next year.

I think that everyone in the PM community needs to understand that our amazing game could be shut down by Nintendo if we give Nintendo a reason to want it shut down. That's why the PMBR does not profit from the game, and why post-Brawl clone engine characters aren't an option, etc. As a community, we simply need to tread lightly and avoid doing stupid **** like:
-tweeting or posting YouTube comments about Project M being awesome and Smash 4 being crap
-making Nintendo think that people won't buy Wii U's or Smash 4 because of PM or that PM is competition
-attracting negative publicity to PM
-talking about PM in any kind of Nintendo community, like that guy who got banned from Miiverse for posting about PM (and then proceeded to call Nintendo's Technical Staff and inform them about what PM is, just so that they would lift the two-week ban on his account)

Sorry for the long post. Got a bit carried away, I guess. This was a good distraction from my 8-page term paper.

 

[trojanpooh]

Then the PMBR should just make the menus funny and self aware. Bam, parody, *****es!

 

[MattNF]

What I am baffled by is why in the hell the PMBR is selling t-shirts with the PM logo and making money off it. Since PM is based off Brawl, it could be seen in a court that they're making money off a derivative work made without Nintendo's permission. That right there could be the nail in PM's coffin. They could be potentially digging their own grave.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

What I am baffled by is why in the hell the PMBR is selling t-shirts with the PM logo and making money off it. Since PM is based off Brawl, it could be seen in a court that they're making money off a derivative work made without Nintendo's permission. That right there could be the nail in PM's coffin. They could be potentially digging their own grave.

The shirts consist of only the Project M logo, which has nothing to do with Nintendo. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that the money is going towards better servers, so they're not actually profitting. Either way, the t-shirts aren't a ginormous deal. Nintendo certainly won't take action against the mod because they sold a couple t-shirts.

 

[MLGF]

Didn't they change the logo entirely so they wouldn't go through any issues?

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

The Project M Logo isn't owned by Nintendo in the slightest, and it's not going to be attacked unless it were to openly use Nintendo's materials without authorization. Even if it comes from a Brawl Mod, it doesn't actually display a logo legally associated with the game or it's assets.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

I like to think nintendo has actually realized that there's no practical purpose to killing any semblance of goodwill they've had with this admittedly meager community in order to stifle a mod that is helping to keep their game relevant. That said we're in the year 2013 and they still managed to make the EVO mistake...again.

I still think that EVO thing was just some kind of miscommunication. Nintendo was really quick to reverse their decision, which is weird since they usually either not reverse their decision at all, or they're much slower at it.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

I still think that EVO thing was just some kind of miscommunication. Nintendo was really quick to reverse their decision, which is weird since they usually either not reverse their decision at all, or they're much slower at it.

I sincerely hope that the EVO fiasco was a result of some mistake or miscommunication. That being said, there was an enormous backlash on the internet and Nintendo was getting all kinds of bad PR, especially because of the whole breast cancer thing. It seems entirely possible to me that their attempts to stop streaming at EVO was intentional, but they reversed their decision so quickly because the internet blew up and because they didn't want to be seen as "anti-breast cancer research". Either way, we can't know for sure.

 

[NameChange]

I don't know if this is true, but Nintendo actually tried to stop Smash from being at EVO at all
EDIT: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...tourney-entirely-which-is-really-stupid.shtml

 

[Giygacoal]

The thing is (as pointed out by the judge in the Virtual Boy case) modding a video game for one's enjoyment is just like skipping sections of a book. Yeah, we don't really own the software, but still...

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

The thing is (as pointed out by the judge in the Virtual Boy case) modding a video game for one's enjoyment is just like skipping sections of a book. Yeah, we don't really own the software, but still...

The judge was talking about the use of a Game Genie to access cheat codes. He was using the example of making your character invincible (which, as you said, would be like skipping sections of a book.) Modding the game to create a new experience is a separate issue, and later court cases have ruled in favor of the game developers of the original work.

 

[MLGF]

I Found this online, pretty insightful.

The real problem here comes down to Nintendo’s mindset

Nintendo wants a placid, tame userbase that accepts whatever Nintendo puts out without (too much) criticism. Nintendo wants a consumer base that accepts the proclamations from Redmond/Tokyo/etc. as gospel and never questions a single decision from the company. Nintendo wants a fanbase that allows Nintendo to control every aspect of its IP without so much as a whisper of dissent.

Nintendo wants drones, not consumers. Nintendo wants yes men, not fans.

Nintendo doesn't seem to want people to play its games in any way other than how Nintendo wants them to play it. A fair number of Smash Bros. fans accused Nintendo of trying to alienate the competitive Smash Bros. scene withBrawl via its ‘tripping’ mechanism; Melee remains the popular choice for competitive play primarily for that reason.

Nintendo doesn’t seem to want people questioning the decisions it makes for the directions of its IP. The company all but brushed off the criticism of Metroid: Other M in regards to the characterization of Samus Aran and implied that gamers didn’t understand what the game’s director wanted to accomplish.

The EVO debacle seems to imply that Nintendo doesn’t want the Smash Bros. IP associated with the Fighting Game Community or perhaps even considered a fighting game IP. That it seems to want this despite Melee beating out more recent and more popular games (including indie darling Skullgirls) in the EVO fundraiser to earn the ninth tournament slot for the event speaks volumes about the attitude Nintendo has towards it consumers.

But it also speaks to the mindset of the company in general. For too long, Nintendo has refused to evolve a number of its IPs in any significant manner (hi Zelda), release new games in older-but-still-loved IPs (hi StarFox), and stop force-feeding specific IPs down gamers’ throats (hi Mario).

On top of that, the company seems to have only its own interests in mind when designing consoles. When the industry began moving towards CD-ROMs (a move designed as much with consumers’ wallets and storage spaces in mind as the costs of game creation and distribution), Nintendo stayed with proprietary cartridges (N64). When the industry moved to DVDs, Nintendo used a proprietary format (Gamecube). When consoles began using onboard hard drives to store game saves and downloadable content, Nintendo half-assed the concept by including far less space on the Wii than even the lowest-end models of the PS3 and the XBox 360 carried.

When online play became the norm in the industry, Nintendo refused to make a leap into the online market — and when it made the leap (with the Wii), it did so in a boneheaded fashion that looked wholly out of touch regarding how consumers perceived online gaming.

And that, right now, has become Nintendo’s true legacy: despite all the success it had with the Wii and all the success it had in the pre-PlayStation era of gaming, Nintendo has fallen out of touch with what the average ‘modern gamer’ wants out of videogames and looks damn near ‘backwards’ in the eyes of said gamers. Even longtime Nintendo fans (such as myself) don’t have the patience or willpower to defend moves such as the Let’s Play and EVO debacles any more.

Nintendo, through years of ignoring consumers and focusing on controlling its own image, has become a company that sits woefully out of touch with the gaming community at large. It has lost an immeasurable amount of goodwill with gamers, and when it makes dumb decisions such as the EVO debacle, it loses that much more.

Nintendo must change its mindset and ‘catch up’ with the rest of the industry or it’ll eventually suffer the same fate as the companies it crushed back before Sony pushed out the PlayStation One.

After all: SEGA may have had its die-hard fans, but even they couldn’t save the Dreamcast.

 

[Phaiyte]

Not true at all. You can play Project M with pirated Brawl copies.

No one in their right minds endorses the piracy of a Brawl iso nor thinks that it's ok to do that. Cease the ignorance.

 

[MattNF]

No one in their right minds endorses the piracy of a Brawl iso nor thinks that it's ok to do that. Cease the ignorance.

I just said it was possible. Chill out.

 

[Phaiyte]

you should really make a habit out of keeping dumb **** like that a little more hush hush

 

[Exaggeratedhonesty]

Wow, Did a little google here and there and i missed a lot in the past 2 years. (i lost track of anything smash related when i got my new pc and got bored of brawl.)

So basically nintendo wanted smash off the tournaments and it made the fans uproar.

But isn't it only NoA that wanted it shut down? because i honesty don't see why NoJ would even care or bother with it.

 

[Giygacoal]

The judge was talking about the use of a Game Genie to access cheat codes. He was using the example of making your character invincible (which, as you said, would be like skipping sections of a book.) Modding the game to create a new experience is a separate issue, and later court cases have ruled in favor of the game developers of the original work.

1.The judge is a woman.
2.No, she was the one who compared using the Game Genie to be like skipping sections of a book.
3.How is Project M any different from any other set of hack cheats? With enough codes, ANY game could be made into a "new experience". As far as the law is concerned, is there any difference between making a character invincible and giving the shine a jump cancel?
4.Which cases favored the original developers? The context matters a great deal.

Edit: The only one I could find that involves game developers is the Duke Nukem 3D case. The level pack was actually being sold, so it was harder to defend. Sure, the original developers did the "derivative work" claim, but I think they were more concerned over the fact that other people were making money off a feature that's supposed to be free. Also, I don't understand the court's logic that the map pack could ruin the market for official Duke Nukem sequels. It's the developers' fault for making and encouraging the use of an official map editor. It's still a shame that happened; in my opinion the court was being really dumb for basically ignoring the logistics of the Game Genie case and refusing to look at the issue from a consumer's point of view.

-tweeting or posting YouTube comments about Project M being awesome and Smash 4 being crap
-making Nintendo think that people won't buy Wii U's or Smash 4 because of PM or that PM is competition

In my opinion, it's Nintendo's fault for making Brawl not good and the Wii U not a no-brainer buy. Reggie once said the company isn't afraid of used game sale because it's confident the consumers love the games enough to not want to trade them in. What happens when Nintendo makes sequels that suck? I don't understand how companies could feel so entitled to a continuously paying audience. If Nintendo someday does hate PM for being product competition, it just needs to remember that gamers vote with their wallets.