What has happened to Bowser?

[Zarxrax]

When this game came out, a lot of people were saying that Bowser was possibly top tier. Of course, as the metagame started to pan out, we realized that this was not the case. But Bowser has only continued to fall further and further in the eyes of many players.

If you look at the community voted tier list, then as of version 1.06 of the game, Bowser was solidly around lower-mid tier.
But now in a newer version of the tier list, Bowser is flat out in the absolute bottom tier. This comes even after Bowser got buffed slightly in 1.08!

Now, of course that tier list isn't definitive. But it gives an overall impression of the characters worth in the eyes of a large number of players. And for some reason, in their eyes, Bowser has been getting worse and worse.

I'm just wondering what everyone's thoughts are on why exactly that might be?

 

[Volimutt]

Worse? Please. Tiers don't make the character. The practice, dedication and acquired knowledge and skill of said character is what makes them. Bowser can be marked F-- tier for all I care I'll continue to count on him.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Honestly there aren't enough people practicing with or trying to represent the character. I'm in the lab, myself and there are a lot of nice things that Bowser can do when played properly. But that's just it, people aren't trying him enough.

Bowser's got a lot of untapped potential. You have to be patient with him and try not too commit really hard.

He's got a great punish game and a run-stop animation that lends to being the closest thing Smash 4 has to "Dash Dancing". And he's just overall good in acting out of a run.

Let's take Zero. He's an amazing player but he's rubbish with Bowser. I think he plays him too aggressively.

I'm not done talking but I'll finish this post in a moment.

 

[Cassius.]

Come on man. I'm really getting tired of this. No one with half a brain truly thought Bowser was going to be top tier. Cut it out. You didn't need to see the metagame develop to realize that. He still has the same glaring problems that he has had for fourteen years.

Where is the "community voted tier list"? Can I see a link? If it's just some reddit trash, I'm really going to be disappointed. People are trying to develop these lists and it's still way too early, especially once you start getting out of the top 15. Play the game for another four to five months before a thought of that even pops up.

Nothing has happened to Bowser. The hype around him has died, and players looking for an easy way out or a way to make a quick buck have realized that he takes more work than the other relevant characters. It's better that way anyway. We don't need half-assed players who are just going to move on to the next flavor of the week. We need a dedicated group of players who are willing to put the time and work into understanding and playing Bowser properly and pushing him to the limits of the game.

Bowser is anywhere between the 25th-30th spot in this game. I've been saying this since the first day of Smash 4's release.That's nowhere near the top tier that severely misinformed players thought he was going to be, but that's certainly not bottom tier either.

Another thing people aren't understanding is that those community lists are comprised of a lot of players' opinions, yes--but those are also the opinions of a mass amount of players who really do not play the game at anywhere remotely near a high level. Top players' opinions on characters aren't the be-all-end-all of a character's worth, either, but players need to at least be informed of most, if not all facets of the game.

I probably sound extremely upset in this post, but it is getting really tiresome now. I apologize.

 

[Zarxrax]

Cassius, that would be this list. I assumed everyone would know what I was talking about as it has been one of the most active threads in the smash 4 boards for months.

I don't think Bowser is bottom tier. I was simply observing that apparently a lot of people now consider that he is bottom tier though, and want to explore what is leading people to this opinion.

 

[Cassius.]

Thank you for the link. Bowser is definitely not bottom 5 LOL

Like I said, community lists tend to have a mass opinion, but it is the opinion of a mass amount of players who don't really play the game or characters in the game at a high level.

I only have Smashboards bookmarked to the Bowser boards. I don't have any interest in anything else aside from that because it requires me sifting through the opinions of other players, half of whom don't really know what they're talking about, a quarter of which are verbose posts that attempt to disguise someone's idiocy, and a quarter of whom are players with good, informed opinions (they don't have to be top players! Just do your homework and know what's going on!)--but sadly, that golden quarter gets shrouded in 75% of bull****.

To put it in a crude way, the masses don't know what they're talking about. Outside of the top 15, a general consensus cannot be reached in the first 8 months of the game lol

To them, characters that have had media exposure (twitch, YouTube, top players, etc) will be the characters on the forefront of their list, even if they are garbage (their worth has been proven, right?!)

As you said, and I thank you--seriously, thank you, Bowser is obviously not bottom tier. That's clear as day. Bowser just doesn't appear on streams frequently outside of MD/VA, and even that is rare. He also has the stigma of being a big character in a game where combos seem to matter to every player that doesn't truly understand Smash 4...going back to the point where uninformed players and players who aren't really at a high level--spectators/pot monsters/stream monsters at best and worst.

I'm hope that I'm not implying that I am a superb player. I'm "good" on a good day. But as far as forming community lists, this is something that I'm painfully aware of.

 

[S_B]

Come on man. I'm really getting tired of this. No one with half a brain truly thought Bowser was going to be top tier.

Yeah, I never understood how anyone could come to this conclusion, especially when a few people had said it about Brawl Bowser as well.

Heavyweights are almost NEVER top tier, and usually aren't even very good in general...

 

[Cassius.]

Also, the reason why people thought Bowser was going to be top tier was because his damage output was absurd (single hit, almost every attack landed does over 10% damage). Ease of use, and time-frame factors into this as well.

So picture this: early Smash 4--before the game even dropped, so no one knew how to actually play the game, everyone was garbage at the game. Bowser did not at the time, and still does not require any exquisite combos to deal heavy damage. And, in a time period where everyone sucks at the game and apparently Smash fundamentals didn't carry over for anyone save ~5 players, Bowser is going to seem amazing. He killed people at 40 for making bad decisions.

Media exposure accentuated that ridiculous thought that Bowser was actually going to be a top tier in the game. You have ##k people viewing a tournament and they see a Bowser player winning off of landing 3-5 hits and then just getting a Smash attack OR a command grab (where EVERYONE is scared! It's early, no one knows what is going on in the game yet) to clean stocks? He's going to seem great. It seems as if it requires little effort on the part of the player using Bowser to win anything (still in early, pre-release Smash 4).

He hasn't changed in fourteen years. He still has Up-B OoS, and a command grab. Pre-release Smash 4, what are players going to do? Shield against things they're uncertain of, and not be aware of how moves actually work in this game, so they will go ham. Yet, Bowser's "core" mechanics haven't changed. You can punish people for being reckless on your shield, and you can grab people who are scared or unfamiliar with the game. Bowser's kill power is huge, and he rewards you well for making the right decisions.

But, no one viewing a tournament or a video is going to really think about that, or really take it to the next level of critical analysis. None of them actually have played Smash 4 Bowser yet. None of them know if his glaring weaknesses have been fixed. It's all from a spectator perspective.

People try Bowser when Smash 4 is first released. Yeah, he seems improved. He's not *that* slow anymore. You go to any tournament and ask any random player what they think of Bowser, and the first thing out of their mouth is, "he's pretty good. he's been improved."

Anyway, I digress. The problem, as I mentioned before, is that people don't realize that Bowser just has to play old-fashioned, legitimate neutral AND footsies in Smash 4 to get good hits. That's not the case for your average top 15 character. The hits required to clear out a stock as Bowser are significantly lower than any character needs in this game, but landing a hit is a tad more difficult primarily because he doesn't have "Smash 4" neutral. He doesn't get insane rewards off of grabs or forcing someone offstage.

Bowser has to play a very, very, very plain (it's not plain by any means. It's just standard Super Smash Bros neutral) neutral game against characters that don't have to worry about anything I listed in the previous paragraph. On top of that, everything that Bowser has, save his damage, knockback output, and certain little quirks that your average Smash 4 player is not going to know about or look at, are average at best. Smash 4 players don't want to put in the effort to do that, because alternative options exist (there's nothing wrong with that, and I actually agree with choosing a better character). So no one does it except for a few players. And if you're not on twitch, or youtube, you don't exist, right?

...that's just my theory at least. Like I said, I don't fault anyone who has dropped or overlooked Bowser for something more fulfilling, because he does require a larger amount of work than any of the current meta-relevant characters in this game.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Yeah community "tier" lists such as the ones on Reddit, the one on Eventhubs and the one even here on Smashboards are complete gutter trash.

Bowser doesn't need any changes, he's completely fine as a character. Solid mid tier imo.

During the 3DS version, Bowser was a crazy good pubstomper, which overinflated a lot of players' opinion of him. As the meta progressed, people have realised that even though Bowser has some really solid moves (Bair is probably one of the best in the game), he's still got flaws, and the VERY VOCAL BADDIES like to overstate these flaws.

 

[MrEh]

People always complain about big bodies in EVERY fighting game. Fatties tend to do well against bad players and in online settings.

This describes a huge amount of hte smash community.

 

[Cougar Hunter]

idk wat happen to bowser but is good

 

[BBC]

Excuse me cougar hunter this thread is about bowser and bowser only keep the ness talk in the ness thread

 

[Mr. Bones]

My only problem with Bowser is that many characters have a spot dodge that can avoid BOTH hits of D-Tilt with one dodge...

Oh and I miss his old F-smash sometimes.

In all seriousness, Limit's got everything on point. There are only a few people that actually dedicate time to learning Bowser now. It's either because they love the character or because they're used to big-bodies in general or like his playstyle.

His pivot grab is like some Koopa black magic with its range. So that's neat. And his U-Tilt feels so much better with the recent update.

His offstage game is a lot better than people give it credit for though. A lot of early kill opportunities are missed when you don't just go out there and Fair someone in half.

Don't let your dreams stay dreams.

 

[KevN くコ:彡]

I could care less about what a tier list says, I still love playing Bowser. Hell, Bowser is what made me fall in love with Smash in the first place with Melee.

 

[Zeriora]

No matter what crappy tier bowser is in. He can always win. Same goes with ganon, Because if you simply punish every attack, your easily going to win. I think of bowser and ganon PUNISH characters, that do INSANE punishes when the other player messes up. So really in my brain, I think bowser is ANY tier. He will always be that.

 

[Bobert]

Cassius, that would be this list. I assumed everyone would know what I was talking about as it has been one of the most active threads in the smash 4 boards for months.

I don't think Bowser is bottom tier. I was simply observing that apparently a lot of people now consider that he is bottom tier though, and want to explore what is leading people to this opinion.

Just saw the list.

Bowser is definitely NOT bottom 7(Neither is Ganondorf). I mean, he's not amazing or anything but he's like low mid at the worst. Also, DLC characters on a tier list and we only just got them a few weeks ago. Seriously? It's honestly still too early for a tier list especially with balance patches coming out frequently. Aren't we getting another one in August? Anyways, the most accurate thing you're going to find on a community tier list right now is the high tiers. Mid tiers and low tiers will be scrambled because of biased opinions and other characters not getting enough representation. Don't take any tier lists too seriously right now.

Edit: Also, that tier list has Dark Pit 2 tiers below Pit yet they're almost exactly the same except for arrows, ftilt and Side-B and Dark Pit's Side B is arguably better in certain matchups/situations(i.e. Rosalina). The only thing Pit has that's straight up better than Dark Pit is arrows and I doubt that's enough to separate them by two tiers.

 

[Zigsta]

People in the community are going to say Bowser is low tier for a good while now because A) the bulk of Bowsers at tournaments are bad to decent and don't do anything notable and B) there's not a high level Bowser that consistently attends and does exceptionally well at tournaments.

Unless either of those change anytime soon, don't expect the public's opinion on Bowser to change, no matter how wrong that opinion is.

 

[Jerodak]

I'm actually completely fine with this. If someone ends up underestimating me because they believe that Bowser is worse than he is; it'll end up being more their problem than mine. After all, that's part of competitive play too.

 

[Cassius.]

To add to that, the number of players who truly understand everything Bowser has to offer AND understand the game fundamentally are few and far in between. Even understanding a good amount about both is acceptable for now since we haven't hit anything revolutionary in the meta yet, but those are still few.

Bowser is still severely underplayed and misunderstood, despite his "improvements". His popularity has gone down a lot, especially at the mid-high level of tournament play. He plays differently from every character in the game, AND there are fifty-something characters! He has nothing that "Smash 4 players" would want, so his popularity has dwindled. This is why threads like these exist and pop up every two weeks.

There are going to be a number of players who are ignorant and misinformed about Bowser's talent. It's up to us to either educate them through words or actions (or just not do anything at all and just play the game). I personally would just rather not say anything, but that's because I'm just a lazy individual at heart. I'm surprised I take the time to respond to half the things I do.

It's just kind of bothersome because Bowser is clearly mid tier. It's not like Melee where Bowser was garbage, or Brawl where we deluded ourselves for 3 years into thinking we were actually playing a mid tier character. We have almost everything we need, especially because we have such a young meta, and the mechanics in this game are awful, and options are limited. A lot of players are still bad, make bad decisions, are bad at neutral and don't comprehend the concept of laming people out, but people don't understand LOL.

 

[metroidfan987]

Yeah, I was clinging to Bowser's Melee image for a long time, but I have seen the light. He is much better now, in fact, unlike in Melee, I have beaten every vanilla Lv 9 cpu with him in Smash 4. Of course, he is still very slow, but winning with him just requires patience. I won several FG 1v1 matches against a Fox player with Bowser, and that player was certainly not bad.

 

[Cassius.]

Bowser's not "very slow" my dude lol

He hasn't been "very slow" since 2008.

I don't know what to say about everything else you mentioned.

edit: there are still a lot of players that have the "Melee/Brawl Bowser" stigma still ingrained in their minds, and it's pretty easy to see. If you follow the timeline, people probably first raised eyebrows at Bowser when Sakurai made a 2-minute segment in the Nintendo Direct, when he stated that Bowser was vastly improved. People were probably itching to try him, and some probably assumed Sakurai was full of ****.

People heard feedback from the demos, and players' opinions of Bowser are subjective. Some probably said he was still garbage, some probably were in awe at how much "faster" and "cleaner" he felt. Some people probably felt that no amount of buffs in speed could compensate for Bowser's weaknesses (apparently being large is such a profound weakness that he's low tier or bottom 10 LOL)

Then you have the tournament where Larry won with Bowser. Everyone lost their minds and somehow figured Bowser, a character whose fundamental problems still had not been fixed, was going to be top tier. People tried Bowser out for the first couple of weeks, and then dipped out. Some stayed. Some didn't even bother, and that is more than likely because they either didn't believe the hype, or still felt Bowser was a walking heap of garbage due to the previous games.

Bowser isn't for everyone. Some people can't operate certain characters, and I'm almost certain players who are lacking in fundamentals won't be able to perform well with Bowser in any game. He rewards play and decisions that don't come right away. He is a turtle, after all. You get it when you get it.

 

[ZombieBran]

When fighting Bowser in previous games I felt "lol here's my favorite kicking target".
Now I feel that along with "oh **** I hope I don't screw up anything".

It's complicated.

 

[Atm0s]

I'm sure if someone really learns Bowser and sticks with him for a long time, he can go to tournaments and can get consistent top finishes. As for me, I just enjoy his play style. I've always loved slower bait/punish characters, so I just have a blast playing him.

 

[pbjezgoud]

Worse? Please. Tiers don't make the character. The practice, dedication and acquired knowledge and skill of said character is what makes them. Bowser can be marked F-- tier for all I care I'll continue to count on him.

I agree, I think Bowser remains in a 'Top Tier' conversation to be honest. But regardless of his ranking, I think he is incredibly effective and one of the harder characters to beat (behind a skilled player of course).

Just saw the list.

Bowser is definitely NOT bottom 7(Neither is Ganondorf). I mean, he's not amazing or anything but he's like low mid at the worst. Also, DLC characters on a tier list and we only just got them a few weeks ago. Seriously? It's honestly still too early for a tier list especially with balance patches coming out frequently. Aren't we getting another one in August? Anyways, the most accurate thing you're going to find on a community tier list right now is the high tiers. Mid tiers and low tiers will be scrambled because of biased opinions and other characters not getting enough representation. Don't take any tier lists too seriously right now.

Edit: Also, that tier list has Dark Pit 2 tiers below Pit yet they're almost exactly the same except for arrows, ftilt and Side-B and Dark Pit's Side B is arguably better in certain matchups/situations(i.e. Rosalina). The only thing Pit has that's straight up better than Dark Pit is arrows and I doubt that's enough to separate them by two tiers.

I agree! Not only that, but Dark Pit has a far more consistent aerial combo string...arrows are really the only thing Pit has over Dark Pit.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I guess the story is that even though Bowser has been improved at spots, he still suffers from the same flaws that he has had in Melee and Brawl; he's big and super heavy. Of course, he's one of the very few fighters who doesn't flinch from Little Mac's weaker multi-hit punches, so having some form of super armor against the weaker attacks does help out Bowser at times.

 

[Cassius.]

You guys are looking at the wrong problems though lol. Him being large and heavy isn't necessarily a flaw. You can't make Bowser small or light. He won't be Bowser that way. That's just how Bowser is; you can't focus on a problem that's literally not in your control at all lol. You are playing big, bad, Bowser. You have to get used to it. That's not something I would consider a problem that's been around for years, because if Bowser wasn't large or heavy, we probably wouldn't be playing the same character.

His main issues are that he cannot land without taking some kind of damage. If he had the airspeed he had in Brawl or better (the cast was smaller, so there was less competition), he would be able to escape to the edge fairly quickly and not have to be stuck in bad situations for long periods at a time. However, he doesn't have that. Even in Brawl with his pretty good air mobility and movement with Klawhopping, AND with the airdodge mechanics, he still had landing problems to a certain degree. Klaw is still a command grab that requires you to commit to a direction. That can get beat out fairly easily. And, ironically enough...as disjointed as Klaw was, it lost to more disjointed moves. Landing in Brawl goes deeper than that, and I could write paragraphs on how to land as Bowser in that game...he had options, but that's not important now.

He also has a blind spot below him. No aerial moves can help him get rid of that issue, because they all have some kind of risk behind them. The blind spot is below him, but the best spot to stay at to actively punish his landings is probably the diagonal angles from his position. You won't have to deal with DAir or Bowser Bomb, and you are always a threat to him. (And Klaw is pretty finicky now, so odds are if you're not playing me, you won't get grabbed :3) This is an issue that is mitigated by the "escape to the edge" solution. But again, because Bowser's airspeed isn't all that, it's kind of hard to get out of dodge from center stage unless you double jump, or if you hit the ground running. These are just things to keep in mind.

I have to add, though, that landing isn't necessarily impossible. Those highlight his main issues on paper, but players aren't perfect, and punishes get flubbed all the time. That's not to say that you should count on your opponent to make a mistake, but rather, count on yourself to be on point and be aware. If you do see an opening or an opportunity to get out of a situation, do it.

Being heavy in this game as Bowser honestly isn't bad at all. We get our early kills with rage, and good reads are rewarded more heavily when he has taken damage. He's like a fat Lucario...kind of. The only MUs where you really can't afford to take too much damage are those "on the clock" kind of MUs where you get combo'd and die to kill throws or throw setups. So like, Luigi and Ness, for example. I swear I mentioned this before.

As much as I would like to believe, Bowser doesn't currently belong in a "Top Tier" discussion. He's not that good, and he's not playing the type of neutral that the top 10/15 play (you would really have to pay attention to matches and character attributes to notice this. Top 15 is kind of stretching it, but I do believe the top 5-10 in this game are playing a different game) He's just okay. And we should be okay with him being okay now, because he was garbage for so long lol

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that someone who puts time into Bowser will be able to place consistently and do fairly well, especially in Smash 4's current environment. It's not that hard to do well right now. I would definitely recommend to any (Bowser) player to get into Smash and support your scene now, while everyone and everything is still young. You will improve at your own pace and grow with everyone else, and the game will grow with you as well. The ability to place without really breaking a sweat will obviously change in the upcoming years, but you just need to remain calm, play solid, and just pay attention. I cannot stress this enough--good situational awareness will put you miles ahead of the average player in this game with any character. But Bowser rewards you heavily for solid play and solid reads under any conditions, and especially tense ones.

 

[MrEh]

Bowser shouldn't even be in a mid tier discussion imo. He's not trash, but let's be real here; he struggles against nearly every character in the game.

Don't get me wrong, he's not unusable. He's just gonna have a hard time.

 

[Cassius.]

Bowser shouldn't even be in a mid tier discussion imo. He's not trash, but let's be real here; he struggles against nearly every character in the game.

Don't get me wrong, he's not unusable. He's just gonna have a hard time.

Where do you think he fits, then? Am I being too generous with 30th? I still think he's mid tier at best. Even if it's lower than that, I don't think he belongs in low tier. If I really am being delusional, let me know.

I don't think he struggles with anyone below him, and some MUs above him are pretty simple too. There are some really ****ty ones, obviously. And I do certainly agree that he has a hard time. No amount of generosity I can give will allow me to ignore that. But we can't call 45-55s, 40-60s or -1s struggles IMO. We never did in Brawl. And especially not in this game with all the dumb **** it has LOL

 

[MrEh]

I think he belongs at the top of low, which honestly isn't far from mid tier at best.

His matchups will only get worse as time goes on, imo. They always do.

 

[Cassius.]

That's fair. That always does happen, but I think it'll be more manageable this time. We'll see; we still haven't hit a year yet lmao

 

[sovereigntea]

I remember when the game came out and Bowser's dropkick (and everything else about him) was terrifying. As time goes on and people learn more the tier list is naturally going to shift. Successive patches aimed at "balance" didn't help much either. I would say that Bowser is not top-tier material. A perfectly played Bowser will lose to a perfectly played Rosalina; Bowser needs openings in order to function. Of course I have yet to see a truly perfect player so just take tiers with a grain of salt. Let Bowser be low on the tier list. It means less people will play him and more people will underestimate him.

 

[S_B]

I love Bowser. I'll always love him. I think being underestimated makes playing him more fun. That said, it'd be nice to see more Bowsers in tournaments.

However, I think this is a broader issue with all heavyweights and not just limited to Bowser. It's more the way the game handles heavyweight characters. While they tried to give Bowser a gimmick based on his "tank" status (tough guy), it just fell short.

But they might be learning, as evidenced with Charizard's buff, making u-throw a kill move and d-throw able to combo into things.

And really, THAT'S the way to go, since giving heavies outright buffs to speed, knockback, etc. would make them insanely overpowered in casual play.

It'd be nice if every heavyweight had:
-Fast, weak hits that combo into other attacks
-More reliable killing throws, or at least...
-Throws that allow for guaranteed followups (if you read the DI)
...Because most of these would be over the heads of casual players. Seriously, most casual SSB4 players I know barely know how to grab...

Remember how Snake's D-throw forced a tech-chase situation? Yeah, more things like that for heavies would be great, things that causal players would never be able to take advantage of but advanced players would utilize.

 

[sovereigntea]

I love Bowser. I'll always love him. I think being underestimated makes playing him more fun. That said, it'd be nice to see more Bowsers in tournaments.

However, I think this is a broader issue with all heavyweights and not just limited to Bowser. It's more the way the game handles heavyweight characters. While they tried to give Bowser a gimmick based on his "tank" status (tough guy), it just fell short.

But they might be learning, as evidenced with Charizard's buff, making u-throw a kill move and d-throw able to combo into things.

And really, THAT'S the way to go, since giving heavies outright buffs to speed, knockback, etc. would make them insanely overpowered in casual play.

It'd be nice if every heavyweight had:
-Fast, weak hits that combo into other attacks
-More reliable killing throws, or at least...
-Throws that allow for guaranteed followups (if you read the DI)
...Because most of these would be over the heads of casual players. Seriously, most casual SSB4 players I know barely know how to grab...

Remember how Snake's D-throw forced a tech-chase situation? Yeah, more things like that for heavies would be great, things that causal players would never be able to take advantage of but advanced players would utilize.

I would say that heavyweight's also need reliable projectiles. I almost wish Bowser's side-b involved a hammer toss. At the very least make it so that when you just tap B bowser shoots out a quick fireball that travels far.

That being said I think SM4SH treats heavyweights fairer than any of the previous games have...

 

[S_B]

I would say that heavyweight's also need reliable projectiles. I almost wish Bowser's side-b involved a hammer toss. At the very least make it so that when you just tap B bowser shoots out a quick fireball that travels far.

If Bowser had his fireball from SMB (ie a slow moving FB that he can fire and then chase), he'd be bottom high tier at worst.

That being said I think SM4SH treats heavyweights fairer than any of the previous games have...

True, with the only exception being Project M but I'm not sure we can count it because their solution was to give Bowser lots of SA, which I wouldn't recommend they do for SSB4 because it'd make casual players whine to no end about him (like I'm guessing they whined about Bowsercide).

HWs this time around are at least genuinely heavy, so they deliver on that aspect. Much of that benefit is negated by characters that can combo them for the first 50%, though.

I think just giving heavies amazing grab games would be the way to go. Most already have great grab RANGE, like Bowser's insane pivot grab (except for Dorfasauras Rex...). Giving them guaranteed followups off of throws just makes sense because it will do next to nothing for casual players but give skilled players a lot to work with.

Imagine if we could dthrow > followup at any percent, for example. We could rack damage with nair or finish them with a fair or maybe even grab them with klaw. I realize that up/down throw already have a set knockback, but I'm pretty sure we've tested and there's no guaranteed followup (especially with good DI).

 

[sovereigntea]

If Bowser had his fireball from SMB (ie a slow moving FB that he can fire and then chase), he'd be bottom high tier at worst.



True, with the only exception being Project M but I'm not sure we can count it because their solution was to give Bowser lots of SA, which I wouldn't recommend they do for SSB4 because it'd make casual players whine to no end about him (like I'm guessing they whined about Bowsercide).

HWs this time around are at least genuinely heavy, so they deliver on that aspect. Much of that benefit is negated by characters that can combo them for the first 50%, though.

I think just giving heavies amazing grab games would be the way to go. Most already have great grab RANGE, like Bowser's insane pivot grab (except for Dorfasauras Rex...). Giving them guaranteed followups off of throws just makes sense because it will do next to nothing for casual players but give skilled players a lot to work with.

Imagine if we could dthrow > followup at any percent, for example. We could rack damage with nair or finish them with a fair or maybe even grab them with klaw. I realize that up/down throw already have a set knockback, but I'm pretty sure we've tested and there's no guaranteed followup (especially with good DI).

Yeah that is what I am imagining. A small fireball that you can guide to hug the ground or hover above it. Nice and slow. It would be able to create openings by forcing players to shield (grab city!) and protect Bowser from being spammed.

I can''t judge project M but I agree that SA probably isn't the best solution. Little Mac is just dripping with the stuff and there is nothing more frustrating. I do advocate giving Wario back some of his lost SA but I digress...I must say that I do really like tough guy, it is a nasty surprise that catches people off guard but it seems rather arbitrary. I almost wish Bowser had more yoshi-style SA.

Another thing to consider is Bowser's shell. It can negate a lot of attacks and has fantastic priority (for the U-Smash). I think giving Bowser SA on his shell attacks would be great. Maybe give whirling fortress SA up until about 130%. That way Bowser can safely approach or retreat and is all but guaranteed to survive.

Or, and this is a good one, Make it so that when Bowser turns around his shell deflects projections ala Link's Shield. Give the ol' fella a weird gimmick. Tough Guy just doesn't cut it.

Heavies in sm4sh are hard to kill, have better recoveries, and are genuinely large enough that size becomes an advantage (in the form of greater range). Bowser is also way faster and can pull off surprises. Unfortunately I think SM4SH is a game built around combos and heavies are exceedingly vulnerable and struggle to pull of their own. A great dthrow follow-up would be good. Dedede can pull off a dthrow into just about every aerial and it is one his saving graces. Bowser is designed to throw people and gain stage control. Unfortunately he has a really difficult time actually taking advantage of this control. The only attacks Bowser can follow up on are his neutral A and u-tilt and even then he can't pull off any comboes involving 3 moves...

The logic of heavyweights that Sakurai was going for is that they can sponge hits and survive long enough to just fire off power moves. Eventually the opponent will mess up and be killed. This doesn't work well against high-level players who don't make mistakes often. Heavyweights can still apply pressure and surprise but its ultimately based on luck. They need to have advantages and abilities that make them good regardless of skill and context.

Admittedly I hate the Klaw and wish it was gone...

 

[pitfall356]

Alright, so I was planning on staying silent and lurking harder but I feel like I should talk on this matter.

Take a look at Bowser's moveset and tell me what moves deserve SA. None of his specials, and none of his neutrals should get any armor. All of his moves as they are now are actually pretty good. They've all got great uses, great damage, great range. They don't have a ton of speed - but that's okay, Bowser is a heavyweight powerhouse. He doesn't need all that speed as long as you can control his strength.

Usmash should NOT get SA. It already has shellguard, aka he's invincible from above. Plus, it lifts him off the ground and stomps for a second hit when he comes down. Kirby try to dspecial you? Usmash. First hit deals massive damage, Kirby hits the ground but that hitbox doesn't get you because you're no longer on the ground. Come back down and hit him again. Usmash is great. Dsmash doesn't need SA, it has good range, damage, kill power, and punishes rolls pretty well.

Looking over Bowser's entire kit, any form of armor would take his good attacks and make them completely ****ing bonkers. Most players just respect Bowser as it is - but if they can't even make him flinch? Either go for grabs or hide behind shield. Bowser doesn't need armor.

When it comes to his specials, Bowser has a custom firebreath that spits out a fireball. I don't know if you've used it, but it's complete garbage. I agree on giving him a projectile that can be used for slight camping or potential combos, but as stated before, that would break his character. His attacks deal so much damage on their own - giving us guaranteed followups into any of them suddenly gives us the power to stack on damage at extreme speeds. Same goes for guaranteed throw followups. Fair alone does 12-14%. Most throws do 12% (excluding uthrow). Grab range is high = ez grabs, 26% guaranteed or more, etc. Please no.

On the topic of Tough Guy... I'd started a thread about it before, asking what people thought. Of the votes I got, 19 people wanted it buffed, with another 9 saying to leave it alone. As stated before, however, Little Mac is coated with armor and he was a real pain in the ass at one time. TG needs some work to be a real gimmick instead of... something that was poorly executed. In the end, passive armor would definitely be over the line. I like the idea of it as it is now, but if it's to be fixed he would need to be able to armor projectiles or given crawl armor to move through heavy zoning - like Project M. Being able to armor very weak attacks, like pokes and jabs, would be nice - but in the end it's not what we're going to get and I don't think it's what we really want, is it?

Bowser is pretty great this time around. Let's push ourselves to make him a truly feared fighter, not because he is top tier, but because of the potential he has to ****ing demolish you.

When opponents see you select Bowser, they're likely going to be thinking one of two things (or even both):
1) I'm gonna combo this fool for days.
2) I'm gonna die at 50.