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What Ganondorf Does Represent from his own games

Jotari

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So, as expected, I see a few hotly debated Ganondorf threads here regarding what they should do with his moveset. I think it's funny that people complain about him so much and say he needs a sword when he probably takes more from his own games than Zelda, who also uses a sword. Check out this observation of Ganondorf's moves and the reason why he does the things he does, even if it doesn't look like it.

 
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Creede

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So, as expected, I see a few hotly debated Ganondorf threads here regarding what they should do with his moveset. I think it's funny that people complain about him so much and say he needs a sword when he probably takes more from his own games than Zelda, who also uses a sword. Check out this observation of Ganondorf's moves and the reason why he does the things he does, even if it doesn't look like it.

The thing is, Zelda isn't really a fighter and hasn't shown any extensive fighting prowess, so there needed to be a moveset made up for her. Ganon, on the other hand, fights in most of the games, and there is little representation of what he does in game. He could use his sword from TP, use his duel swords from WW (a Toon Ganon would be cool), use magic like he did in OoT, use his magic like his Phantoms did in WW, and I'm sure people could think of more.
 

Jotari

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She used a sword in Twilight Princess (and her own CD-I games and the cartoons) which is exactly what they used for the basis of her moveset in Hyrule Warriors.
 

Frostwraith

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Watching that video made me realize that his animation when doing Flame Choke in the air (where he slams the grabbed opponent into the ground) uses an almost identical animation as when he slams the floor in Ocarina of Time to generate a shock wave.

The only difference is that he originally does it with the right hand, whereas in Smash, he does it with the left, so the animation appears mirrored in comparison.

This makes me notice they added pretty much all unarmed combat moves Ganondorf uses in the Zelda series into his moveset as means of deviating it from Captain Falcon's. Seems like they wanted to keep Ganondorf as a hand-to-hand fighter and derivative of Falcon, but tried to make him as faithful as possible within that restriction. In some cases, they dug deep to find such moves...

His magic powers are represented similarly as Zelda's: as means of enhancing physical blows. In Zelda's case, she powers her moves with sparkly light magic, while Ganondorf does so with darkness and thunder magic.

The only instance of Zelda using magic in combat was in Ocarina of Time where she fires a light beam at Ganon towards the end. In Twilight Princess and Wind Waker, Zelda fights solely using Light Arrows (her Final Smash). She does use different kinds of magic in other occasions, though.
 
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Jotari

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Watching that video made me realize that his animation when doing Flame Choke in the air (where he slams the grabbed opponent into the ground) uses an almost identical animation as when he slams the floor in Ocarina of Time to generate a shock wave.

The only difference is that he originally does it with the right hand, whereas in Smash, he does it with the left, so the animation appears mirrored in comparison.

This makes me notice they added pretty much all unarmed combat moves Ganondorf uses in the Zelda series into his moveset as means of deviating it from Captain Falcon's. Seems like they wanted to keep Ganondorf as a hand-to-hand fighter and derivative of Falcon, but tried to make him as faithful as possible within that restriction. In some cases, they dug deep to find such moves...
Oh wow, you're right. I never noticed that. Another thing to note is that they're retroactively made some Smash moves part of his fighting style in Zelda games like the elbow strike he uses in Twilight Princess being reminiscent of his forward smash and using a back handed punch on a ball of energy like Warlock Punch in Hyrule Warriors. Dang. I wish they could let us play with his full Smash moveset in Hyrule Warriors. That would be awesome.
 

WwwWario

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I feel I'm one of the few who likes Ganondorf exactly how he is. Like this video and @ Frostwraith Frostwraith explains, Ganon DOES get some inspiration from the games, which I'm happy about! :) His sparta kick, his Flame Choke animation (both when he rushes forward, and when he slams them into the ground when hit in the air), etc.

I don't want, and never wanted, Ganon to fight with a Sword in Smash. In the Zelda games, sure, but Ganon doesn't feel like a sword fighter in Smash to me. That would be wrong. Projectiles like in Oot? Hmm, maybe. But I truly like him the way he is right now. I think of his sword taunt as a truly awesome taunt. It's like he's saying "Heh, I got my sword I can use against them. But nah, I don't even need to use this thing to win".
 

L9999

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Does anybody here know what Falcon Stab is? It is that move that involves Ganon pulling out a sword.
 
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Frostwraith

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I feel I'm one of the few who likes Ganondorf exactly how he is. Like this video and @ Frostwraith Frostwraith explains, Ganon DOES get some inspiration from the games, which I'm happy about! :) His sparta kick, his Flame Choke animation (both when he rushes forward, and when he slams them into the ground when hit in the air), etc.

I don't want, and never wanted, Ganon to fight with a Sword in Smash. In the Zelda games, sure, but Ganon doesn't feel like a sword fighter in Smash to me. That would be wrong. Projectiles like in Oot? Hmm, maybe. But I truly like him the way he is right now. I think of his sword taunt as a truly awesome taunt. It's like he's saying "Heh, I got my sword I can use against them. But nah, I don't even need to use this thing to win".
Seeing him with a sword would be cool and I can understand that some people would like to see that in Smash, but it's also true that Ganondorf doesn't really need a sword, since in Ocarina of Time he never used one. (Personally, if he were to use a weapon, a trident would be cooler and a more unique choice.)

Ganondorf doesn't even have a consistent fighting style in the series. Seriously, this is the guy that goes from fighting unarmed with magic (Ocarina of Time), to using two katanas without using magic (Wind Waker), to using a big sword with some magic and unarmed combat added to the mix (Twilight Princess).

In Smash Bros. games since Brawl, he uses a modified, rougher, less refined version of Falcon's moveset that contains nearly all of the unarmed combat moves he uses in the Zelda series, powering them with the same kind of magic he uses in Ocarina of Time. To say he doesn't have inspiration from the Zelda series is false.

Anyway, I do think a projectile move would be a good idea to make him more unique. I feel it's the only big thing missing from the moveset given that Ganon(dorf) does use magic projectiles in almost every Zelda game. Change one of the specials (or maybe one of the Smash attacks?) to a projectile and I think no more changes would be strictly necessary.
 
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L9999

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Just give him the Dead Man's Volley as neutral B, change his Up B to Dark Fists and his Down B to Wizard Dropkick, give him the punch quake from Ocarina of Time as Down Smash, Warlock Blade as a side smash and there you go.
 

Spootondorf

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I'd welcome a projectile (OoT) and possibly some levitation more worthy of Ganondorf. We see him floating around in OoT and see him rise up a great distance in WW, so he really should have a better recovery, anyway.

As for his current moveset, I like the inspiration it takes from the games he's been in. And honestly, after putting my OoT >> TP sentiments aside, I think his current playstyle is far more suited to his TP character model than a magic-focused moveset.

Consider the character of Ganondorf. In OoT, he tricked Link into opening the path to the Triforce for him, after which he effortlessly conquered Hyrule. This was an arrogant Ganondorf who didn't need to busy himself with people he thought so insignificant so as to not constitute a threat. He would just use his magic to swat such people away like flies. However, when he wasn't able to defeat Link in this manner, he resorted to rampaging around with melee weapons. At the end, he had been humiliated by his defeat, and promised to destroy Link and Zelda's descendants when he eventually escaped the Evil Realm.

Ganondorf from WW has the above as his history. After having much time to calm down and plot, he eventually does escape the Evil Realm, and he nearly conquers Hyrule again, with no incarnation of the Hero to stop him. This is a Ganondorf whom no one really knows, having been sealed away for so long. With no Hero to exact vengeance upon, Ganondorf must have been thrilled. But alas, this time he was thwarted by the Goddesses themselves, and the object of his desire -- Hyrule -- was lost to the ocean and to the mists of time. By the time of the events of Wind Waker, he had been defeated twice, and after both defeats, he had much time to plot. Now, however, not only did no one (but the spirit of the king of Hyrule) on the face of the Great Sea know of him, but the world -- separated into sparsely-populated islands as it was -- was even easier to conquer. Yet, having been defeated twice, he now takes a patient, cunning, approach, staying in the shadows and somewhat covertly searching for the bearers of the other two pieces of the Triforce. When he finds them, he is ecstatic, and lures Link to him the same way he did to the Hero of Time so many centuries before: by kidnapping Zelda. This time, he is more physical and more intimidating. But upon his puppet forms' defeats, he isn't fazed, and lures Link onto the roof of his castle, where he explains his motives in a way that only someone acquainted with failure could. He uses this lull to quickly overpower Link and summon the Triforce. The King then appears and steals the moment from a man who had been through two defeats and centuries of waiting and planning. After having an insane laugh due to recognizing his recurring lot in life, Ganondorf decides it's finally time to gruesomely kill his green nemesis. Wielding two blades, he combats the children who are symbols of his failure. Upon his final defeat, Ganondorf seemingly accepts his fate. "The wind.... It is blowing...." Wind Waker presents us with a reflective Ganondorf who only gets physical and in your face when he has failed.

Twilight Princess, on the other hand, has a Ganondorf who has been inexplicably preempted in his first effort to conquer Hyrule. Child Link arrives back in his correct time period and informs the royal family of Ganondorf's plans, having the Triforce of Courage as evidence of his virtue and, presumably, honesty. Without seeing any of his plans come to fruition, Ganondorf is executed. However, Link's possession of a piece of the Triforce presumably caused the other two pieces to assign themselves to the appropriate individuals, and Ganondorf finds new life and power in the possession of a piece of his own. Even then, the remaining sages manage to seal him inside the Twilight Realm. This is a Ganondorf who has not even seen a single victory, and his complete humiliation lay in being "found out" before he was even able to display his cunning and power. Even after finding a way to escape the Twilight Realm, he needs revenge, and he needs victory. Still, he knows that concealment may be the best option. However, when the time comes to claim vengeance, he can't help but be utterly brutal. After all, when you have been humiliated, brutality is a temptation. Ganondorf's is made manifest by his beast form and the sword battle at the end.

While I might be overplaying Ganondorf's brutality in TP, my main point is to contrast the character we see in WW/TP with the one we see in OoT. Brawl and Smash 4 have a quite appropriate moveset for the King of Evil as we saw him in TP -- the sword was his last option in that game, so he doesn't even care to use it in Smash. However, Melee's version of our favorite villain actually had a moveset that couldn't have been much more of a poor fit. Melee is the game in which he should have used projectiles and had a more stand-offish battle strategy, while, with a TP or WW reskin, his moveset would have been a perfect (though still too Falcon-like) fit.

Sorry if I rambled. In the end, all I'm saying is that Ganondorf's current moveset fits with his character model quite well, and that a magic-focused one would only be suited to the version of the Dorf that we saw in Melee.
 

Rialdospaldacht

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While that is a well-thought-out analysis, to put it bluntly, I don't give a damn about his fighting style fitting his personality. I want his fighting style to fit his fighting style, which is a combination of magic and weaponry, which one emphasized depending on the game.
 

Jotari

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I'd welcome a projectile (OoT) and possibly some levitation more worthy of Ganondorf. We see him floating around in OoT and see him rise up a great distance in WW, so he really should have a better recovery, anyway.
I'd like a projectile too but I'm going to have to disagree on the levitating. I've wanted it for a while but recently I've given it some thought and don't think it would seem fitting to his risk reward style. Ganon has good aerials but you're only going to have the chance to land one making them a gamble. Though I haven't played Project M where he actually does have some levitation so that's just how I feel about it conceptually.
 

Quillion

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I love to bring up the fact that Ganondorf rarely ever uses hand-to-hand moves but everyone dodges the question because no one can really argue against that.

He does use them, but his use of them still pales in comparison to his magical projectiles and use of swords and tridents instead. It does represent something from Zelda, but it's Flanderization from the canon portrayal, which is still unacceptable.
 

Jotari

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I love to bring up the fact that Ganondorf rarely ever uses hand-to-hand moves but everyone dodges the question because no one can really argue against that.

He does use them, but his use of them still pales in comparison to his magical projectiles and use of swords and tridents instead. It does represent something from Zelda, but it's Flanderization from the canon portrayal, which is still unacceptable.
Unacceptable is a heavy word. Why is it flanderization for Ganondorf to use his hands but it's fine for Zelda? Ever since The Wind Waker she's been firmly associated with Light Arrows and Twilight Princess added a sword to the repertoire. Added to the fact that a sword and bow were her weapons of choice in the cartoon (which many people might not like but smash has pulled from external sources before, most notably when it comes to Pokemon) and we have a pretty definitive fighting style. To the extent that when Hyrule Warriors went to make a moveset for her the sword and bow combination is what they immediately went with. Yet in Smash she still steals spells from Link and fights with sparkles/explosions she's never been shown to use in game. The closest is the beam of light she uses to subdue Ganon at the end of Ocarina of Time but that doesn't resemble anything she does in smash in either animations or effect. Neither Ganondorf nor Zelda had much to pull from when Melee came out but since then they've been given many different abilities that could potentially be the basis for a more accurate moveset yet only Ganondorf has received the blunt of the hate.
 

Oasis Dealer

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So, as expected, I see a few hotly debated Ganondorf threads here regarding what they should do with his moveset. I think it's funny that people complain about him so much and say he needs a sword when he probably takes more from his own games than Zelda, who also uses a sword. Check out this observation of Ganondorf's moves and the reason why he does the things he does, even if it doesn't look like it.

This has always been an interesting discussion...and also has been the start of heated arguments. In terms of what Ganon brings from his own games, it's two things: Power, and dark magic. Going over the dark magic bit, while he doesn't use it in the way people think, (shooting energy projectiles) he still uses it. All of his specials are surrounded by dark magic, which he uses by smashing the opponent with it. Power is obvious. Ganon hits like a tank, practically all of his moves can kill. But, there's still the main problem people see with Ganon: No sword.

While I love how Ganon is in this game, (One of my favorite Nintendo villian's) I can see the problem people have with him not using a sword. Now, it's known Sakurai doesn't change character's up much, (No, specials don't change a character that much. They still have the same basic fighting style) and people seem to criticise this. The thing is, Sakurai doesn't change characters completely because of fear of annihilating current players, which is understandable. However, I think I've thought of a good balance of current Ganon and a new Ganon.

First, he has a sword. Pretty obvious. Next, Neutral B is changed to the Sword custom. This is the only special I can see being changed. Next, dash attack is changed to Ganon striking with his sword, (similar to his already existing dash attack) and his jab combo is two sword slashes, then hitting with his elbow or hilt of the sword, like in Twilight Princess. Finally, F-air is like a re-skinned version of his current one; With the same thing happening to his b-air. Only other noticable change I can see happening is a different running animation, like his one in Twilight Princess.

With this, it would be a perfect balance in my opinion of a new Ganon and our current one. Could it happen? Maybe. Pull any stupid reason like "Sakurai is too supid for that" because it's not a good one. It depends if Sakurai and other involvment in the making of the character agrees to such changes.
 

MagiusNecros

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I've accepted Ganon will stay as he is and if I really want to play as Ganondorf I have this cool game called Hyrule Warriors I can play.
 

Quillion

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Unacceptable is a heavy word. Why is it flanderization for Ganondorf to use his hands but it's fine for Zelda? Ever since The Wind Waker she's been firmly associated with Light Arrows and Twilight Princess added a sword to the repertoire. Added to the fact that a sword and bow were her weapons of choice in the cartoon (which many people might not like but smash has pulled from external sources before, most notably when it comes to Pokemon) and we have a pretty definitive fighting style. To the extent that when Hyrule Warriors went to make a moveset for her the sword and bow combination is what they immediately went with. Yet in Smash she still steals spells from Link and fights with sparkles/explosions she's never been shown to use in game. The closest is the beam of light she uses to subdue Ganon at the end of Ocarina of Time but that doesn't resemble anything she does in smash in either animations or effect. Neither Ganondorf nor Zelda had much to pull from when Melee came out but since then they've been given many different abilities that could potentially be the basis for a more accurate moveset yet only Ganondorf has received the blunt of the hate.
Light Arrows were at least accounted for in the Final Smash, but Zelda's sword is at least game-specific, as Zelda has yet to be seen using swords since then. Ganon on the other hand has had several abilities that have been seen throughout the series even before Smash 64 that have yet to be brought in. The most consistent ones, at least, would be using a ball of energy, teleporting, reflecting projectiles, and using either a trident or sword(s).

No character is too "established" to be changed to reflect recent games. Mario of all people got FLUDD when the Spin Jump-based Mario Tornado appeared in several games. Link got the Gale Boomerang. Pit got moves using different weapons from Uprising. Samus got an entire "switchable" incarnation based on a brief moment in Zero Mission (before it was split off for 3DS reasons) and that was her THIRD SMASH APPEARANCE. Ganon deserves at least Samus's luxury in Brawl, but no, we still don't have it.
 

Jotari

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Light Arrows were at least accounted for in the Final Smash, but Zelda's sword is at least game-specific, as Zelda has yet to be seen using swords since then. Ganon on the other hand has had several abilities that have been seen throughout the series even before Smash 64 that have yet to be brought in. The most consistent ones, at least, would be using a ball of energy, teleporting, reflecting projectiles, and using either a trident or sword(s).

No character is too "established" to be changed to reflect recent games. Mario of all people got FLUDD when the Spin Jump-based Mario Tornado appeared in several games. Link got the Gale Boomerang. Pit got moves using different weapons from Uprising. Samus got an entire "switchable" incarnation based on a brief moment in Zero Mission (before it was split off for 3DS reasons) and that was her THIRD SMASH APPEARANCE. Ganon deserves at least Samus's luxury in Brawl, but no, we still don't have it.
All of Ganon's various weapons have been game specific too. I'd like to see him throwing and reflecting projectiles too, and I hope to see it for his alternate specials in the next game but those are special moves, not a base moveset. All of those changes you've listed are move changes, not moveset changes. They still have the same base idea and niche as a fighter. And Ganon has been given things too. His forward tilt and down tilt became his kick from Twilight Princess. His side special became the rushing attack he used to kill the sages. Warlock Punch became a backhand attack like his backhand attacks in The Wind Waker. And most significantly of all, they've given him a sword for one of his specials. Ideally Warlock Blade will become his base neutral special in the next game and he won't have a need to change much of his A moveset.
 

MagiusNecros

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Animation is sloppy and doesn't look right according to his actual swordplay in TP.
 

Quillion

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They still have the same base idea and niche as a fighter.
Oh, this thing...

How would giving Ganondorf a handheld weapon infringe on Ganondorf's base idea? Ganondorf would still be freaking slow and need a lot of mindgames to land hits. The only difference would be he gets a lot more range.
 

Jotari

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Oh, this thing...

How would giving Ganondorf a handheld weapon infringe on Ganondorf's base idea? Ganondorf would still be freaking slow and need a lot of mindgames to land hits. The only difference would be he gets a lot more range.
In which case what would make him any different from Ike?
 

MagiusNecros

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Beast Ganon with Trident pls. And energy balls everywhere. And every attack can reflect projectiles.
 

Quillion

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In which case what would make him any different from Ike?
There's nothing wrong with that. We have two ninjas and two surprisingly fast but strong beasts on the roster
 
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Jotari

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Being a ninja is not a gameplay niche. In terms of moveset Sheik is more similar to Captain Falcon than Greninja, being focused on rushing in wards and beating the opponent down. While Greninja is designed as a surprisingly defensive fighter with a quick charging projectile, a recovery that pushes opponents a way, a stealthy warping move, a counter and a down aerial that drops and bounces. Greninja is all about hit and run tactics which, almost ironically makes him more similar to Ganondorf than Sheik. Who are you talking about for the fast but strong beasts? Yoshi and Donkey Kong?
 

The Shadow Emperor

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I really don't understand the desire for a Dead Man's Volley neutral B. I think it would do more harm than good in the end, especially if it's as easy to hit back at him as Dedede's Gordo Throw.
 

Quillion

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I really don't understand the desire for a Dead Man's Volley neutral B. I think it would do more harm than good in the end, especially if it's as easy to hit back at him as Dedede's Gordo Throw.
Doesn't necessarily have to be a reflectable projectile. It would actually be better if Ganondorf had a separate reflecting move in addition to that. Coupling with that, a canon Ganondorf might actually be a Mewtwo clone, but even that is better than what we have now.

Being a ninja is not a gameplay niche. In terms of moveset Sheik is more similar to Captain Falcon than Greninja, being focused on rushing in wards and beating the opponent down. While Greninja is designed as a surprisingly defensive fighter with a quick charging projectile, a recovery that pushes opponents a way, a stealthy warping move, a counter and a down aerial that drops and bounces. Greninja is all about hit and run tactics which, almost ironically makes him more similar to Ganondorf than Sheik. Who are you talking about for the fast but strong beasts? Yoshi and Donkey Kong?
The strong-but-surprisingly-fast beasts would be Bowser and Donkey Kong and kinda Charizard if you wanna stretch a bit.

If Ganondorf's specials were more different from Ike's they'd be as different as the two speedy ninjas Sheik and Greninja. A chargeable projectile alone would set them completely apart.
 
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