• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

What Every Character Needs!

kirbykid

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
486
Location
Texas
Zelda is back. When I woke up this morning and hit refresh on the Dojo, Lo and behold, there she was donning her new Twilight Princess regalia. Just the previous night, I was commenting on how the only reason Zelda should return for Brawl is because she’s a girl (Melee had a shortage of girl characters). If I were judging on her move-set alone, I would have thrown her to the wayside. What can we learn from Zelda and the other poorly designed characters?
<p align="center"><a href="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/zeldalink.jpg" title="zeldalink.jpg"><img src="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/zeldalink.jpg" alt="zeldalink.jpg" /></a></p>
<a href="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/zeldalink.jpg" title="zeldalink.jpg"><!--more--></a>

Zelda is one of the worst designed characters in the game. It should come as no surprise that she’s at the bottom of the tier list. It doesn’t matter if you believe in the tier list or not. It’s easy to see that Zelda, Pichu, Bowser, and Mewtwo are bad characters. They don’t have enough power, or abilities to pull off the win in any general situation.

If you think that this only applies to competitive smash players, consider this. Because Melee is a fighting game, a large part of the fun comes from winning. If it didn’t, people wouldn’t get so bent out of shape from wavesliding or other advanced techniques. When your chances of winning have dropped well below 10% the game becomes more frustrating and less fun. The characters that are too weak to win, are less fun to play. The strong characters naturally bring more success and more fun. This is evenident when looking at which characters casual players generally play. The casual players don’t play any of the characters from the bottom or low tiers.

It’s a design issue. If Sakurai made all the characters with near equal chances of winning, then everyone would simply pick the character they liked the most, and the world would be a better place. Some believe that it is futile to try and balance out the game like this, but I believe it is simpler than it seems.

Melee is built around a single fighting style. Hit your opponents, and try to keep hitting them before they can recover. This is the essence of a combo. Because combos are hard to pull off, the next best thing to do is to keep attacking to keep your opponent off balance. This is the essence of momentum. The faster a character is, the easier it is for them to catch up to their stunned opponents. The more stun the opponents receive, the easier it is for you to set up another attack. The more range you have, the easier it is to hit them when they can’t hit you. All of these ideas are very simple.

So now we have Zelda. Horribly designed Zelda. The princess clearly has no martial art skills or fighting ability. It seems like Sakurai simply made up some excuse about having magical attacks just to give her something to fight with. It’s obvious that Zelda has poor moving capabilities. Sakurai admitted to this himself in the Dojo. If your character can’t move well, then they need to have moves with more stun and range to make up the difference. Did they give Zelda these things. Of course not. That’s why she’s at the bottom of the tier list.

Zelda’s moves are slow, not too powerful, and they don’t have a lot of range. What’s worse is, because they’re made with the same magical sparkles as Ness’s dash attack and Samus’ up+B, Zelda’s attacks are full of holes that make her moves unpredictable and in many cases useless. In the end, she a sitting duck that can’t follow up an attack to save her life.

Zelda’s recovery is also quite pathetic. Though her teleportation travels far, it’s not an offensive recovery move. This means using it won’t hurt any opponent practically giving them the “ok” to try an attack you without consequences. This makes her susceptible to attacks at the beginning or the end of her recovery. And because Zelda continues to float around when it’s activated, aiming it becomes more difficult than it needs to be. Also, because this moves doesn’t curve around the sides of the stage, Zelda often gets stuck against walls and falls to her death.

There is no excuse for designing characters as poorly as the bottom and low tier characters. We know Sakurai and team had the ability to designed awesome characters because Fox, Falco, Shiek, Marth, Peach, and Samus are all designed extremely well. It’s almost as if they ignored the bad characters as some kind of joke. Remember the five points of power (Speed, Strength, Priority, Range, and Duration)? To balance the game, you can’t give any one character too many of them. Likewise, you can’t give some characters none.

To finish, I present a small list of things every character needs in order to be decent.

<strong>1) </strong><strong>A kill move.</strong> A kill move is a move that kills at around 100% damage by sending the opponent up and out. It can be a throw, a projectile, a ground attack, or an air attack. Melee is all about knocking opponents out and off the stage. If a character can’t do it, they’re extremly limited in how they can get rid of opponents. The more versatile the kill move, the more dangerous a character becomes. If the move is a projectile, how big it is, how fast it travels, and on what trajectory makes all the difference. If the move is an attack, how much range, priority, and speed the move/character has makes the difference.

<strong>2) A Move move. </strong>Every character needs a move that moves or positions the opponent to specific <u>areas</u>. This may seem like a given, but the <u>area </u>needs to be one that the character can interact in. This means, for a high jumping character like Falco, he can play around at high altitudes. So when his moves hit enemies up there, it’s no problem for him. But for characters that take to the air slowly, they need moves that don’t send their opponents so high that they’re out of reach. All of Kirby’s moves (except his up tilt) move the opponents is ways that make it nearly impossible for Kirby to pursue. Once again, being able to catch up to opponents is how the game was built

<strong>3) A variety of throws.</strong> Skaurai designed and balanced Melee around a medly of defensive moves. Shields flow into sheild grabs, which flow into throws, which (for good characters) flow into a complete offensive reversal. What good is a throw that can’t kill at reasonable damages? What good is a throw and that doesn’t move opponents into positions that can be followed up? The opponents just end up landing somewhere safe and away from you. All of Kirby’s throws are poorly designed like this. Not only is Kirby not fast enough to catch up to his opponents afterwards in most situations, but the opponent can break free of the Kirby’s forward and back throw by simply touching the control stick. I’ve had little kids break free of my throws when they barely knew what was going on in the game. You can practically drop your controller and successfully escape. This makes it more difficult for a low tier character like Kirby to do a complete offensive reversal. It’s part of the reason why Kirby is so poorly designed.

<strong>4) A Spike/Meteor.</strong> These are special terms given to moves that shoot opponents down. Meteor strikes can be canceled by hitting up or up+B at the right moment. Spikes cannot be canceled. In general, when you get hit by a spike off the edge, you’re dead. These moves become essential for defeating opponents on the edge of stages, especially when these opponents have good recoveries. Also, some stages have pits instead of edges. The only way to dunk an opponent down a pit is with a move that hits them downward. Sakurai tried to give every character a spike or a meteor strike in Melee. Unfortunately, most of the spikes are “hidden” inside of moves, or they’re just to difficult to pull off. Falco and Kirby has it easy. Their spikes are on their down+airs and they last quite a while. But have you every spiked with Luigi, or Roy? These are extremely hard to pull off. Why would Sakurai make them so difficult to use when other characters have it so easy? And why didn’t he make the more difficult moves to execute Spikes so that when they’re successfully executed, they can’t be canceled? Falco’s down+air cannot be canceled making him the most dangerous spiker in the game. Kirby’s can be canceled. He’s not nearly as dangerous. Clearly, this is a design flaw, and Falco’s strength was <u>pal</u>liated (reduced) in the <u>PAL</u> version of Melee.

<strong>5)Compatible dodges/defenses.</strong> The bigger you are the harder you fall. The bigger you are in Melee, the harder is is to defense yourself. Even if your moves have more range (DonkeyKong) you generally have a lot more “back” to be stabbed in. This is always an inherent problem with big characters. Also, the bigger the character the slower they move. This is already sounding like a very bad situation to be in. If you can’t move, and you can be hit more easily, then what are you going to do defensively? That’s a very important question, and once again everything falls under design. If you’re a sitting duck, then it would be good to use your wings every now and then. How quickly a roll activates, how far you roll, and how long the invisibility time lasts gives a character “wings.” Marth and Mewtwo have very big rolls. They can get out of danger very easily. Kirby doesn’t have as big of a roll, but the time he’s vulnerable is very small, so he can roll into dangers more safely than other characters. A character must be able to move around. Melee is half a platforming game after all.

Beyond this, a little creativity could go along way in making the less “kung-fu” fast flying characters usable. Remember my ideas about elemental effects like continual burn accumulation from fire attacks, or how ice attacks can slow down opponents movement? What if Zelda’s magic had more long lasting interesting effects on her opponents? This would be a great way to make Zelda unique.
 
M

METROID MAN

Guest
WOW! THATS A LOT OF WRITING!, OVERALL I AGREE, MAKE ZELDA MORE KICK ASS! GIVE HER THAT SWORD FROM TWILIGHT PRINCESS!



oh and by the way, click on my name, the red metroid man, to see a cool vid id did…..
 
M

Master Makoku

Guest
Ive never done to bad with zelda. Her jump kick attack can enialate opponents around 100% damage. Now im not saying shes the best but i didnt think she was horrible. I think thats why they gave her the transform to shiek ability, because he was faster and a better fighter. This is the other reason why i think shiek made it into the game.(not just because the two are the same people)
 

kirbykid

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
486
Location
Texas
^^^
Master Makoku:
They originally said that shiek wasn’t supposed to have Kill moves. To kill, you were supposed to transform into zelda and use her air move. Unfortunately they gave shiek a forward and history was changed forever.

If I had to guess, I would say that shiek was made first. She’s a ninja, and she has fighting moves. Then someone thought it would be cool to have her transform into zelda, so they slapped together some moves for zelda. If they were made at the same time, why is one top tier and the other bottom? Do you think they just decided to make Zelda bad? It’s more logical that they were created at different times.

Also, if Zelda was designed first as an independent character, why would they let you transform into sheik at the beginning of the match? It’s almost as if they never wanted you to play Zelda.
 
M

Master Makoku

Guest
I think it was more of your choice. They wanted you to pick between one or the other. I think they did it to make her more balanced. Zelda has the finishers while shiek does the damage. If you just had one or the other than they would both be respectively weak.
 
X

XperimnT

Guest
I could win a match with Zelda, and turn around and win another match with Sheik without transforming in either match. Its all about adjusting to each character’s moves and their differences.

Zelda may be slower than Sheik, but she has the intense midair thunder kicks that was mentioned and a strong set of smash attacks if excecuted perfectly. Her “B” moves are also pretty tough, and so are her throws. Fighting with her set of “A” moves on the ground without leaving yourself open, can really tear someone apart. Then throw them off the stage for an easy KO.

Sheik, on the other hand, is very quick and she also has a good variety of “A” moves, both on ground and in midair. If you fight using multiple ground attacks with good timing, you can really rack up the almost constant damage on an opponnent quickly (Bowser in particular due to his weight), and send them packing with her midair chop. (Forward + A).

They both have their similarities as well as their differences, but we dont even know if Sheik is making a comeback. Lets hope so.
In the meantime, go play a one on one with Zelda and Bowser on a small stage like the Battlefield, or the Fountain of Dreams without transforming, then try Sheik vs Bowser. There will be a difference on how well you did, but if your good enough with both, that difference shouldn’t be big.
 

kirbykid

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
486
Location
Texas
SciFiGuy:
It’s called wavesliding too. If you want to debate particulars, I suggest reading the smash history first. Its somewhere in the smashboards.

Master Makoku:
The did to make her balanced in the beginning, then they just make Shiek a complete and powerful character and forgot about Zelda. There is nothing that Zelda adds to Shieks power. It’s really a burden if you think about it. You lose a B move, and you’re afraid of hitting down+B in battle. No balance!

XperimnT:
It doesn’t matter what kind of battle you can win. This is a discussion on game design. If you look at the data, there is nothing you can say to prove your point.

Zelda’s strong air attacks are predictable because that’s all she has. Her smashes are terrible. Her B moves are some of the worst in the game.

You don’t have to tell me shiek is good. Everyone already knows that.

The differences will be big if I played both. Just look at the facts. Casuals and pros stay far away from her. That’s the difference.
 
G

Gary

Guest
I’m glad you touched on the things a character needs to be effective. Sakurai and co. should make an earnest attepmt to balance out the character field. In Smash 64, every character had at least one of those five things mentioned. In the hands of a skilled player, any one character was a force to be reckoned with, and there was no ‘lower tier’. Of course, there were only 12 charas total in Smash 64, and when you double that number, there are bound to be a few weak links. When I think about how dangerous Kirby was in Smash 64 compared to Melee, I hope that much more that Brawl is a return to the balance that marked Smash 64.
 
G

Gary

Guest
In fact, I feel like they should tweak the physics of Smash a little bit so that DI is removed. If you hit someone with an attack, the desired effect should not be nullified simply by pressing down or up on the control stick. DI should, however, still be an option for the attacking player. By tweaking the angle of the control stick up or down a bit on a forward Smash, this allows the player to change the angle of a Smash Attack. Take Luigi’s forward Smash from Melee. Normally, it sends an enemy flying up at about a 70-80 degree angle to the ground. By pushing down on the control stick a little bit (while still smashing it), Luigi’s forward Smash will send someone flying at about a 40 degree angle to the ground, making it more effective when you are close enough to the left or right edge to knock someone off. This is different (at least to me) from “defensive DI” because it is not a cheap way to save yourself from an attack. “Offensive DI” is insurance of sorts, a reward for being aware and playing the game well.
 

kirbykid

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
486
Location
Texas
Gary:
Unfortunately, the balance in Smash64 was even worse than with Melee. But I understand what you’re talking about. I recall link being a terrible character.

Smash 64 is a game filled with crazy combos. The “physics” of that game were limited and this was made more apparent because of the lack of DI. Have you seen Isai go to town? Smash64 was definitely not as deep as Melee.

As I’ve said before, I believe DIing is too easy, with too many benefits from a variety of situations. They shouldn’t take out DI, cause it’s absolutely necessary for the defensive player to have a way out of situations. But how much you can DI needs to be addressed. The timing of the control stick input needs to be harder.

What you said about changing the angle of the attacks makes a lot of sense. If Brawl is indeed running off of a Havok physics engine, this may be a possibility.

Currently there is only a few things that can be done to counter the power of DIing. Mixing up the attacks can cause their DI to work against them. This is hard to pull off, but it’s obvious when it happens.

Crouch canceling must DI.
 
G

Gary

Guest
KirbyKid: I always felt like Link’s only glaring weaknesses in Smash 64 were his jumping ability and the uselessness of his B and down-B moves. For me, the range and strength of some of his more powerful A moves made up for that. Even his up-B can be sometimes be effective in a crowd of 100% or more. From what I recall of Smash 64, the only one of the five essentials detailed in this post that not everyone has is a spike/meteor. Throws were much stronger, and I don’t think it was possible to break out of a throw once it started.

I agree with you completely as far as crouch cancelling goes.
 
F

Firegod

Guest
Really, i think it all depends on a person’s preferences. I mean, one person might like a character who, just as an example, was really weak and easy to knock out, but could deal horrifying amounts of damage, so they dodge the enemy until they see an opening and WHAAM! They make a flashy KO.

On SSBM, one event was you(fox) had to kill falco and capt. falcon, but they were unimaginably hard to kill, so I used the level to my advantage and got them to kill themselves, because me +fox =).
 

kirbykid

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
486
Location
Texas
^^^
Firegod:
It’s not really about preference. What you said is basically “learning to live with defects.” The game simply isn’t designed to be played with weakness. Or rather, the game is designed for all kinds of abilities, but the characters aren’t. No matter how good and how flashy you are, you have to kill your opponent. There’s only a few way to do that. You have to hit them up, out, or down. Down is easy because of gravity, but can only happen off the sides of the stage. Up kills are the best because they can happen anywhere. Out isn’t as good as up. It takes a lot of strength to knock opponents all the way out there. And if they don’t die, they can usually get back.

Even if you try to take advantage of the level, it’s just not enough. You can tell by the characters everyone decided to play. Last I heard, only caveman and azen played young link in tournaments. And the last time I checked, I’m the only one who does well with weak old Kirby. Even with all my crazy flashy moves, it’s just not enough.
 
S

Someone

Guest
Hopefully these issues will be resolved in Brawl. If Sakurai mentioned she was poorly designed, maybe the characters will be more balanced.
 
M

Master Makoku

Guest
Zelda is good for casual players. I just played 8 rounds with her and didnt change into sheik and won 6 out of those 8 matches. Now this may not mean much to the pros since the computers were only on level 8. Shes not the worst and not the best. As i said shes good for casual players since were not the best.
 

kirbykid

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
486
Location
Texas
^^^
Master Makoku:
Your reasoning doesn’t make complete sense. Whether or not you play casually doesn’t have anything to do with how Zelda (a very poorly designed character) is a good match for you. Poor design is poor design. Why would a casual player want to put up with garbage. If you ask me it should be the opposite. The casuals are better paired with tiers. The tiers almost win battles all on their own, therefore the casuals don’t need to invest a lot of time to make them good.

Whether you can beat computers at level 8 or 9 or 100, doesn’t mean that Zelda isn’t poorly designed. I’m speaking purely on a game design standpoint.
 
S

Someone

Guest
If certain characters are generally considered bad, then it’s definitely time for character move reconstruction. There is absolutely no way to remove Zelda now. It’s too late.
But, announced in Dojo (I Think) was that not all characters from Melee will re-appear. Why couldn’t Zelda be one of them?
 
M

Master Makoku

Guest
Um i guess what i meant is that when you start the game you normally go and just pick any character. But as you better your game one normally want to go with one character and better yourself with that character. This normally happens when you become the casual player(my opinion). Now since your still not the best you’ve never realized how bad she really is. But you might still not realize it and still try to better your game until youve become so good with her she seems just like any other character. Or you might just drop her and forget her. I guess i shoulda said shes good for noobs or people who dont care if they win or lose. There does that make better sense?

@someone

I dont think anyone deserved the boot. I think they just needed to get balanced more or make them better. Like pichu was stupid but my brother liked him more than pikachu. If they made pichu better or just made it a different costume for pika then he wouldnt need to get booted out.
 
M

Master Makoku

Guest
Whoops meant to say “now that your better you’ve realized how bad she is”. My bad.
 

kirbykid

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
486
Location
Texas
^^^
Someone:
No characters deserve the “boot” because they’re all from the well respected Nintendo Universe. The only thing that shouldn’t’ happen is keeping the characters the same.

Master Makoku:
It makes sense now. I played Kirby and worked hard with him before I realised he was bad. When I did realize it, it was too late for me. Now I’m stuck with him.
 
G

Gary

Guest
“Up kills are the best because they can happen anywhere. Out isn’t as good as up. It takes a lot of strength to knock opponents all the way out there. And if they don’t die, they can usually get back.”

I agree with you here, but scoring a kill by sending someone too far left or right is a lot more fun. Personally, I’d like to see Brawl geared more toward smashing the other guys off to the left and right. Smash Attacks (especially forward ones) should be made swifter and stronger.
 

Katy Parry

The Only Zelda in Indiana
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
3,328
Location
Indianapolis, IN
NNID
justysuxx
I agree with you, Kirbykid, but if you are truly devoted to a character like I am with Zelda(she’s my main), you will work with their faults, and fix them to your playing style. When I first bought SSBM, as soon as I seen Zelda, I freaked, chose her, battled my friends, and lost terribly. They told me what they thought of her(which they called her everthing but an elf). I was so angry that they made Zelda so….blech. So, I practiced everyday with her, got better and better, and now, when I’m her, I’m unstoppable. My friends now beg me not to pick her, but I do, and they never win. I’m not just saying this either. I am an advanced player, I know all the techniques, and they work perfectly with her. I hope they do not change her in anyway.
 
E

Emilio

Guest
well i think they might change her cause she needed new attacks no offense ethanrodgers223 and they already chnanged her look
 
E

Emilio

Guest
i know wat you mean like when im falco im like unstoppable until i start triyng out other attacks with him the in suck
 
S

Someone

Guest
The PAL version of Melee is the copies sold in England and Australia, amongst other countries. You cannot play a PAL game on a console from North America, Japan, or Brazil.
Likewise, you cannot play any of those formats on a PAL console.
*this information may not be completely correct but it I think it answers your question.
 
D

DoH

Guest
So I played Zelda competitively for a while; I even wrote the FAQ on her at smashboards (though by now it’s old and out dated; if you want the cliff notes, fair/bair ftw).

One of the biggest problems with her is her lack of speed. Her tilts are incredibly slow to the point in which they become useless, and their lack of priority is incredibly disturbing. She doesn’t even have a usable jab to help her from getting grabbed. On top of this, her faster attacks (up smash, down smash, kicks) are incredibly weak or have the problem of odd hitboxes, such as being able to DI out of her smashes or having to sweetspot with the kicks (while there are 3 hitboxes on the kicks, they still don’t pack the consistent punch that say, ganon’s aerials have). This lack of speed is also reflected, as you said, in her poor mobility. One of the things that make the top tier is their ability to chase - the only slow characters that are good are ones who have fast moves (Peach) or big hitboxes (ICs, samus - though their wavedashes make up for their slow movement).

Another thing that Zelda lacks is a good set up for her kill moves. Fox has grabs and shines for his up kills, Marth has throws and inescapable hitboxes, Sheik has down throw and jab, Peach has turnips, Falco has lasers…you get where I’m going with this. Zelda can do what, light kick to full kick if they don’t DI it? The only good set ups she has are on fast fallers, which require a tilt or an up throw, and are predicated on them not DIing it correctly.

Yet another one of Zelda’s weaknesses is her lack of a defense from down below; down air, neutral air? None of them are strong enough to keep her from getting destroyed by up airs or anything with a disjointed hitbox. In addition to this, her lack of recovery options makes her tanking abilities basically non-existent.

Her special moves also need some retooling; Nayru’s doesn’t offer the saftey that the shine or even power sheilding does; if you miss then you’re going to get hit. Dins Fire leaves her a sitting duck and takes away her recovery moves while in the air, and we’ve already discussed why Farore’s is bad for her.

I’m glad to see you’re putting your smash knowledge to some use Richard ;)
 
S

Someone

Guest
Zelda may have an alt. costume with her having blonde hair. I hope alt. costumes will have more relevence to the game(s) the character appeared in.
 

Johnknight1

Upward and Forward, Positive and Persistent
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
18,966
Location
Livermore, the Bay repping NorCal Smash!
NNID
Johnknight1
3DS FC
3540-0575-1486
Agreed with the article, 100%! She looks good, and I think she can have a lot better potential this time around! I got a good feeling about all the low tiers this time around!
 
A

awesome ivan

Guest
what if she had crazy punch-punch-kick combos re-enforced with magic so even though she has rather bad movement her punches would be fast and powerful. also, she could have faster B moves like balls of light energy similar to luigis fireball. also, (just a thought dont care if you disagree) what if her down B move was a big cloud of twilight that hurt any one near her and turned her into the twilight princess? she would be just the same as normal zelda except she would have dark magic instead of light and just look plain cooler. it would be similar to the old zeldas down B move except it would do some damage and wouldn’t change her except for her looks. sheik could be her own character. im saying all this tp stuff because ssbm zelda was based off the most recent zelda game at the time which was oot so the new smash bros should be based off tp right? any ways, well im still talking about tp i might as well say my idea, so here it is. what if zant was in ssbb? there i said it. so see you later.
 
L

LinkXZelda

Guest
I don’t think Zelda is poorly designed. Her powers are just as good as Link’s and every characters’. But that’s just my opinion. ;)
 
B

Big Brawl Fan

Guest
Make Zelda have more power and speed and a better B up and maybe she won’t suck as bad.
 
Top Bottom