What do you think of Ike vs Shulk matchup?

[Eliwood]

So I fought this pretty good Shulk online when I was using Ike
We had 5 battles, I won 4 of them haha....but thanks to that I think I learned a little bit more of the matchup
All of this is in my opinion, and I would like to hear what you guys think.
I think it is on Shulk's favor...maybe by just a little, as he seems to have more range and is faster than Ike.
While fighting, I noticed that it is a bad idea to short hop + nair as Shulk's is faster and with more range
And of course...Shulk in speed is a thing, the guy goes fast and his nair doesn't have much lag...he literally can spam it haha
So yeah, it wasn't a good idea to keep short hopping for me....well.... I usually liked to short hop (with the little backflip animation haha) fast fall, then shield his nair....kinda tricking him as if I was going to attack....but I didn't haha, then grab him...down throw to Bair, really good combo cx
So I knew doing this a lot was going to become predictable for a while...so I couldn't do that much when he was in speed form, but to try and get some reads. Even when his speed form ran out, I still had a little trouble....I just think Shulk outranges Ike. How I won the matches was predict him and played very patient and careful....seriously, if he vision's one of your moves....ouch! Don't be too aggressive...shield to Bair helped me too
So basically what you want to do is short hop, but don't spam your nair or fair too much, shield his moves, do some pivot grabs, or...ahh idk what it's called, but it's that when you run, then turn, short hop, to Bair or nair... as the nair can hit him in the back, leading to a Bair combo...it's kinda like a pivot grab but u short hop instead. Ahh I hope you guys know what I'm talking about xD
Oh well...I guess this will be it, I can say more, but I gotta sleep xD
It would be great if I saved the replays, just to show you guys the matches, but I didn't thought of this earlier and I rarely save replays online.

 

[SoundChow]

Shulk and Ike are pretty similar moveset-wise, though Shulk definitely has better range and mobility. I think he wins the matchup because he can overwhelm ike with his monados, especially if he knows monado canceling.

 

[JWaltz]

It's all dependent on how the Shulk is playing... if he's going super aggro and trying to approach with fair/nair, be patient and shield grab at every opportunity, but if he's playing defensive try to out space him and punish when he tries ****

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Its even.

Ike is more consistent/has faster attacks on the ground at least. Shulk can be better than Ike in one area for a limited amount of time through Monado Arts, but Ike > Vanilla Shulk. Shulk's horizontal recovery range is also kinda crappy.

 

[anas abou]

it's mildly a bad matchup as shulk can uses ike's huge power and counter it (he has the best counter in the game)

 

[JWaltz]

it's mildly a bad matchup as shulk can uses ike's huge power and counter it (he has the best counter in the game)

Counters are extremely punishable and difficult to time. I dont think it's that important in the matchup, think about all the characters Ike's counter would theoretically give him an advantage over...

 

[Banjobeast158]

You can edge guard him pretty easy with eruption, at least from my experience that is the case.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

it's mildly a bad matchup as shulk can uses ike's huge power and counter it (he has the best counter in the game)

And if Ike counters Smash!Shulk, exact same thing is going to happen.

Counters don't really play into MUs much though.

 

[Mario766]

Every Shulk puts too much into vision.

 

[Arrei]

Shulk has longer range, but can't autocancel a shorthop aerial like Ike does, making him even more prone to endlag than Ike is and forced to commit to full hop attacks if he doesn't want endlag from Fair. Shulk has some attacks like FSmash that are less punishable than Ike's counterparts, and his Smash Art makes his edgeguarding game deadly, but I'd still call it fairly even because Shulk suffers from many of Ike's main weaknesses, except even harder in most cases.

 

[Zatchiel]

And if Ike counters Smash!Shulk, exact same thing is going to happen.

Not necessarily. Smash art essentially halves Shulk's damage output so counters are arguably far less dangerous until the higher percents where his largely decreased weight becomes a factor. I think you meant Buster Shulk.

I agree with your all of your other points though.

Shulk has longer range, but can't autocancel a shorthop aerial like Ike does, making him even more prone to endlag than Ike is and forced to commit to full hop attacks if he doesn't want endlag from Fair.

Shulk has Monado Art Landing Lag Cancel, so again, not necessarily. Shulk can be safely aggressive with his aerials as long as he spaces them and negates the landing lag with an art activation.

Oh, and I think Shulk's n-air has about as much landing lag as Ike's.

 

[Arrei]

True, I'd forgotten MALLC was a thing, but to offset the benefit it gives him it also requires Shulk to use an AT that also comes with a telegraph to let you know his next approach will be an aerial, and it's a fair bit more difficult to do when under pressure yourself.

Shulk's NAir landing lag is comparable if not identical to Ike's but from my (admittedly lesser) experience playing him, its arc moving in the opposite direction of Ike's seems to make the time frame for landing it more strict to use than his - since Ike can fastfall it to hit with part of the earlier hitbox and still get away, while it seems Shulk is more likely to either require the attack to go on for more time to actually reach the enemy or miss the enemy entirely if he fastfalls.

 

[Zatchiel]

True, I'd forgotten MALLC was a thing, but to offset the benefit it gives him it also requires Shulk to use an AT that also comes with a telegraph to let you know his next approach will be an aerial, and it's a fair bit more difficult to do when under pressure yourself.

You mean the art highlight? That just means he's trying to equip one. It doesn't mean he's going to offend with an aerial before it activates. If he empty hops or airdodges into the ground the art activation can still protect him when he lands. Art switches by themselves can only be done properly while calm. That, as well as an understanding of the time between art selection and its subsequent activation, is all you need in order to consistently MALLC.

Shulk's NAir landing lag is comparable if not identical to Ike's but from my (admittedly lesser) experience playing him, its arc moving in the opposite direction of Ike's seems to make the time frame for landing it more strict to use than his - since Ike can fastfall it to hit with part of the earlier hitbox and still get away, while it seems Shulk is more likely to either require the attack to go on for more time to actually reach the enemy or miss the enemy entirely if he fastfalls.

Shulk does have to remain in the air for a longer time, yes, but his n-air has considerably more coverage no matter how you look at it. Defensive n-air is usually retreated with a fastfall squeezed in. Offensive n-air is usually only done when the opponent is in the air or gets read on the ground. MALLC is optional in either case but the improved safety/faster follow up ability is always a plus.

 

[genesis_SOC]

I think Shulk is Ike 2.0, honestly.

 

[Xuan Wu]

Shulk is interesting because it presents a match-up scenario Ike has not experienced before. For the first time, one of Ike's greatest strengths is used against him. Range. We have dealt with projectile fighters since SSBB. This time, however, we have a non-projectile character whose spacing game surpasses even our own. To make matters worse, Shulk can augment his attributes via Monado Arts, such as for increased damage output and extended survivability; thankfully, for us, it is possible to exploit the weaknesses that also come with the MAs.

We do benefit for the following:

+ Auto-cancelled F-air and B-air
+ RAR B-air
+ Guaranteed D-throw/U-throw to any aerial from low to mid percents

Shulk has access to none of these iirc, except for maybe RAR B-air; however, it is not as fast as ours. Also, unlike Marth and Lucina, I do not believe Vision can be used as a edge-guard for Aether due to its animation.

Vision is one of the strongest counters in the game, so use smashes sparingly and judiciously.

The match-up, imo, is either slightly favorable towards Shulk or even. ^-^

 

[Eliwood]

Lol nice, we had a nice discussion cx
I liked reading all of the comments, I even learned new things from this xD
So thanks guys

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Shulk is 55-45 Ike due to equal range - superior on several moves, such as Nair - speed, superior Counter, and less endlag.

 

[Yoh]

Ike seems to be more reliable, when it comes to racking damage, Ike is faster on the ground, in my opinion Shulk´s Recovery is worse (without Jump), so Shulk can be better than Ike in some situations with his Monado Arts, but that also kinda limits him.
Shulk has more range though.
An interesting fact for me is, when Shulk enters Jump his Fallspeed increases, if you are able to get a grab then, you can uthrow -->fair/uair him beyond 100%, which kills him often.

From my experience I´d say it´s a small favor for Ike or it´s even.

 

[Casval]

Counters are extremely punishable and difficult to time. I dont think it's that important in the matchup, think about all the characters Ike's counter would theoretically give him an advantage over...

Shulk's counter opens quickly and stays open pretty long compared to Ike. Ike's counter has pretty big startup and is way harder to land.

 

[Zatchiel]

We do benefit for the following:
+ Auto-cancelled F-air and B-air Shulk has a landing lag cancel
+ RAR B-air Shulk benefits from this as well; hugely, actually
+ Guaranteed D-throw/U-throw to any aerial from low to mid percents Shulk has a few true combos out of d-throw in certain arts

Shulk has access to none of these iirc

Addressed in yellow.

except for maybe RAR B-air; however, it is not as fast as ours. Also, unlike Marth and Lucina, I do not believe Vision can be used as a edge-guard for Aether due to its animation.

The slow speed of it is sorta outshone by its range though. It'd venture to guess it has almost twice the range of Ike's back air. And with Buster on it eats shields with little hassle.

As for Vision edgeguarding, it's not even necessary. Shulk can interrupt Aether with an aerial, or an f-smash if he's not merciful. Vision is better used against Quickdraw recovery attempts.

equal range - superior on several moves, such as Nair

True.

speed

Ike is faster than Shulk.

superior Counter

Doesn't really make a difference; it falls on the player for whether or not the counter actually matters in the match-up. If you activate it, that's one thing, but you can also bait and punish with a smash because Shulk's counter takes a bit longer to wrap up than Ike's.

less endlag.

On what? The only argument that can really be made for this point has to do with Shulk's MALLC since that negates landing lag completely. Other than that he's as laggy as Ike is, if not laggier.

Ike seems to be more reliable, when it comes to racking damage, Ike is faster on the ground, in my opinion Shulk´s Recovery is worse (without Jump), so Shulk can be better than Ike in some situations with his Monado Arts, but that also kinda limits him.
Shulk has more range though.
An interesting fact for me is, when Shulk enters Jump his Fallspeed increases, if you are able to get a grab then, you can uthrow -->fair/uair him beyond 100%, which kills him often.

From my experience I´d say it´s a small favor for Ike or it´s even.

Fair points. I don't think the match-up is even slightly in Ike's favor though.

An interesting fact for me is, when Shulk enters Jump his Fallspeed increases, if you are able to get a grab then, you can uthrow -->fair/uair him beyond 100%, which kills him often.

Wondering what this has to do with his increased fallspeed. It sounds like it has more to do with his lowered damage defense.

Shulk's counter opens quickly and stays open pretty long compared to Ike. Ike's counter has pretty big startup and is way harder to land.

I think you might have missed his point. Shulk's counter is definitely better, you are correct, but it's not really a deciding factor in the match-up. If you're not the Ike screwing up by activating it, you're the Shulk screwing up by "whiffing" it. It all falls on the player.

Shulk's counterattack is also avoidable if it's not forward Vision (where Shulk dashes through the opponent and deals a bit more damage/KB). But if you can't manage to avoid it keep in mind that shielding is utterly useless against it.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

I'd say Shulk's definitely got some better aerials when it comes to speed but Ike is more defensive. You shouldn't be jumping at a Shulk because 9 out of 10 times, he's gonna get you with an F-air.

Shulks are also very obvious. If he's going with any of his arts (besides shield and jump) he's gonna play extremely aggressive to get the most out of it. Use that to your advantage. I'm pretty sure most of Ike's ground attacks trumps Shulk's as well. Stay grounded.

My opinion: Ike has things that Shulk doesn't and vice versa. I'd say it's completely even.

 

[Yoh]

Wondering what this has to do with his increased fallspeed. It sounds like it has more to do with his lowered damage defense.

Ike can combo characters with high fallspeed better with his uthrow and longer, I tested it out, I took the fallspeed list and tried it out against various characters.
Shulk (Jump) is third on this list, while Shulk without Jump is somewhere in the middle and I could not manage to combo him as long.

 

[anas abou]

And if Ike counters Smash!Shulk, exact same thing is going to happen.

Counters don't really play into MUs much though.

yeah but ike's counter is way worse and shulk mains only go SMASH when the foe's at 80 percent and while in it mainly fish for kill moves at that point you wont counter much (i usually use counter to stop follow ups when playing ike)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

yeah but ike's counter is way worse and shulk mains only go SMASH when the foe's at 80 percent and e while manly fish for kill moves at that point you wont counter much (i usually use counter to stop follow ups when playing ike)

Ike's is not "way worse". Its exact same as Marth and Lucina's. In Brawl he had different times, SSB4 its identical for all FE characters.

FE characters are a bit more consistent, don't really depower.

Shulk's has more power, range, loses power the more its used, marginally easily to dodge the swing but can't be shielded.

Neither type of Counter is going to be used much at all.

 

[Deleted member]

Shulk can go for cheese pivot grabs in speed mode, which also greatly improves his short hop aerial game with Nair. He can poke with Dtilt. In Jump Shulk has safe aerial pressure with fade away Fairs and can gimp Ike Fairly easily at higher percents because he relies on charging Quick Draw or falling beneath the ledge and using Aether, making his recovery insanely obvious and gimpable with Shulk's giant reach. Don't know too much about Ike.

Also, no counter character that has any kind of experience with the game will counter unless they see an opponent charging a Smash Attack or some laggy special like Falcon Punch or Pikachu's Skull Bash. Counters shouldn't ever effect a matchup unless a recovery is very, very, susceptible to a counter.

 

[AN(M)ist]

Wow. Should we have different match up ratios for each of shulk's modes against ike? 'Cause that's the impression I'm getting from this conversation.

Also, shouldn't this discussion be done in the matchup thread?

 

[Zatchiel]

Wow. Should we have different match up ratios for each of shulk's modes against ike? 'Cause that's the impression I'm getting from this conversation.

That sounds unnecessary. Shulk's arts are just an aspect of the match-up. They really don't make him an entirely different character. And besides, the only two arts in which Ike has a clear advantage in neutral are Shield and Smash.

Shield is virtually even depending on the percents; at low percents neither Ike nor Shulk can reliably combo each other outside of n-air/jab combos. And whoever does get in damage is dealing roughly 30% less than usual. If Shulk is at a much higher percent he's nothing but food for juggles though. Best for Ike to not stale any kill options while Shulk is in this art. Try to keep him in the air for as long as he has Shield on. Getting him offstage might sound good on paper but if he's able to make it back with Jump art then you most will likely have rage Shulk to deal with. Just juggling him is far less risky and easier to do without staling kill moves.

Smash is disadvantageous for Shulk in this MU. He's basically vanilla Shulk that weighs less, has worse safety on shield than anything you can probably imagine, and is hardly a threat before you reach mid percents. Only time he should be in Smash against Ike is if he has set up an edgeguard situation and wants to make the most of it (by gimping).

The other arts give Shulk a considerable edge, for little to no cost relatively speaking.

Also, shouldn't this discussion be done in the matchup thread?

Up to San. This could've been merged with the "proper" thread at any point so I'm left to guess it's not a big deal.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

If you want to know this match up completely play my Shulk.

 

[san.]

I never really had any issues vs Shulk, but I imagine that Shulk players feel the same way. They want to play differently since Ike is more focused on the autocancels, bair, dtilt, and grabs while Shulk wants to pressure based on the Monado abilities (primarily Jump/Speed). I think global options ("fundamentals") trump whatever specific MU interactions are involved.

Up to San. This could've been merged with the "proper" thread at any point so I'm left to guess it's not a big deal.

The current sticky seems to jump around with MUs while this is more focused. I don't feel that there's a need to merge, since it will interfere with both discussions. I learned from the Brawl days that too much of an emphasis on the sticky threads tends to dissuade newer users from posting.

 

[YurtZoire]

Ike seems to be more reliable, when it comes to racking damage, Ike is faster on the ground, in my opinion Shulk´s Recovery is worse (without Jump), so Shulk can be better than Ike in some situations with his Monado Arts, but that also kinda limits him.
Shulk has more range though.
An interesting fact for me is, when Shulk enters Jump his Fallspeed increases, if you are able to get a grab then, you can uthrow -->fair/uair him beyond 100%, which kills him often.

From my experience I´d say it´s a small favor for Ike or it´s even.

I agree with this guy. It just feels like ike has this edge over the guy through his attacks being a little more brief and just ike overall being more consistent and sustained attribute wise. Its a tough matchup, meaning ike still has to pull for all his worth to pull the win, but I see shulk as an upsie-downsy version of ike type of guy. Like its this reallyyyy small advantage you'll only notice if you have seen these guys one on one at least a few times. Like a 52-48 matchup I'd say..