What do you do against Sonic?

[The_NZA]

Hey guys,

I'm having serious trouble fighting against Sonic. Usually Ness's fair trumps approaches and gives ness a way to get in. But sonic is light and fast. He can dash away and approach on his terms with his (i think) down b, has insane range with his ftilt and with his fair off the edge. He has vertical killing superiority (his uair is amazing). Worst of all, I feel my kill options on sonic are limited. Grabbing sonic is difficult and ness's only other major killing moves are extremely positiona, slow,l and spacing-centric to catch a good sonic like bair and uair.

Furthermore, its hard as hell to edge guard sonic because of his great and flexible recovery. I've found most success using pkflash.

Help on all accounts would be great.

 

[Wizzrobe]

Hey guys,

I'm having serious trouble fighting against Sonic. Usually Ness's fair trumps approaches and gives ness a way to get in. But sonic is light and fast. He can dash away and approach on his terms with his (i think) down b, has insane range with his ftilt and with his fair off the edge. He has vertical killing superiority (his uair is amazing). Worst of all, I feel my kill options on sonic are limited. Grabbing sonic is difficult and ness's only other major killing moves are extremely positiona, slow,l and spacing-centric to catch a good sonic like bair and uair.

Furthermore, its hard as hell to edge guard sonic because of his great and flexible recovery. I've found most success using pkflash.

Help on all accounts would be great.

What I do know is that Ness's Nair beats Sonic's spin dash so you can use that to beat out Sonic's spin dash if you are able to react/read the down B.

 

[red13god]

I believe CC dtilt, especially with its speed should be able to trump sonic's down b. Since Sonic's recovery just sends him straight up (with a bit of lag) perhaps dair would be the best option. I agree with wizzrob that nair is one of the best options for keeping sonic away in the air

 

[Nazo]

Nair comes out fast enough to punish spins. Short hop > Fair is also a good option if he's spinning at close range. Down B beats out homing attack, and Neutral B is good against Sonic's recovery seeing as he has to attack before he can airdodge out of spring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePaS7Cz-sqU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmdai-WhHNE

Even though the Ness player lost the sets, these may still be helpful.

 

[Bryonato]

http://i.imgur.com/QxpIvLb.gif

 

[Nazo]

http://i.imgur.com/QxpIvLb.gif

Results may vary.

 

[leelue]

Sonic has a big hunk of invincibility in the spring. That, added with the sheer amount of stalling that he can do offstage, makes me not worry about PK flash at all.

Just like with every other character, Nair>sonic lol. Not nearly as badly this time around, but it's still funny.

 

[Red(SP)]

I can rack Sonic's ass from 0-90% on a single pk fire lock into multiple d-airs.
All you really need to do in the MU is understand the flow of priority of their moves.

It also helps to slow down.

 

[Bryonato]

I couldn't agree more. Sonic is really different from any other character in PM and requires a much more defensive playstyle to beat him IMO. Slowing down is one of the best things you can do in this MU.

 

[k9.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuYK314341k This is me and Nazo's most recent set at a round robin a week ago. I feel like i know what to do against sonic.

Using N air is the most important part of this MU. Then right after that is using F air to space sonic and slow him down. I can talk about it more in detail when i get home but for the most the video shows how i play against sonic. It's the first mu i play with ness where i don't approach at all. Unless he is vurnable.

 

[The_NZA]

Oh my god I LOVED that last kill. I'm going to start using psi magnet before my double jump when I recover cause that is HOT son!

 

[The_NZA]

I think the main thing for me is, sonic is just floaty enough where its hard to land combos. So I have a hard time damaging him.

 

[Bryonato]

Sonic seems to be at an alright weight as you can typically get something going out of DThrow which is really how I determine whether or not I like a characters weight as silly as that sounds

 

[k9.]

Thanks man, just trying to bring ness to the top of his game. Then im done with PM for good guys. Lets keep working together to make happen.

 

[leelue]

It doesn't help that the sonic had absolutely no idea how to kill you though, K9. Chillin onstage with one of the best edgeguarders in the game...
Rolling instead of running to escape danger
And getting hit by PK Flash!

 

[Bryonato]

In his defense Nazo and K9 have played each other a lot. K9 has a lot of experience in the matchup so I would not doubt his skill, nor would I doubt Nazo's.

Also there's nothing wrong with getting hit by PKFlash. It's a great edgeguarding technique.

 

[Nkguy01]

Sethlon's Sonic destroyed me when I was in the air and offstage...Here's what I learned (and what I remember from playing him in friendlies)

Sorry if obvious info. is obvious

His sonic will spin dash (his neutral b...) extremely effective at quickly catching ness in the air. I'm not sure what you can do...perhaps predict and forward air. Ness doesn't really have many options in the air. Otherwise, you might try to catch yourself with the tail, and then possibly punish Sonic with pkt2.

That was actually the first time fighting a Sonic as it was my first pm tourney. I also noticed that sonic can spin dash and cancel it into grabs or a dash attack (?)...So basically, Ness is probably better off pk firing in the air while retreating. Pk fire is extremely slow in comparison to most of Sonic's moves. If the Sonic player notices you struggling, he will probably try to bait a pk fire out of you and go in for the attack. Like others have mentioned...I think Nair is a good option...but a good Sonic will also try to bait it out of you as well. I think the matchup consists of a lot of predictions because Sonic is really fast. Sonic's nairs WILL trade with Ness. Also, double jump cancelled fairs as well, but only if executed quickly.

From the couple of matches I played, I think it's all about being really safe. You must take advantage when you land a pk fire on Sonic because he is a character that loves running around the entire map...Sethlon also mains Marth and that scares me xD


Someone please correct me...or add to these. I haven't read the previous responses but I will soon. I hope this helps.

 

[Bryonato]

I think that's definitely the gist of this thread; Nair > Sonic and play slow/safe while reacting to his approaches.

 

[Nazo]

His sonic will homing attack (his neutral b...) extremely effective at quickly catching ness in the air. I'm not sure what you can do...perhaps predict and forward air. Ness doesn't really have many options in the air. Otherwise, you might try to catch yourself with the tail, and then possibly punish Sonic with pkt2.

From my experience, I know that down-b beats out sonic homing attack. Well, anything pretty much beats it out. Just predict the approach and punish.

I also noticed that sonic can spin dash and cancel it into grabs or a dash attack (?)...So basically, Ness is probably better off pk firing in the air while retreating. Pk fire is extremely slow in comparison to most of Sonic's moves. If the Sonic player notices you struggling, he will probably try to bait a pk fire out of you and go in for the attack. Like others have mentioned...I think Nair is a good option...but a good Sonic will also try to bait it out of you as well. I think the matchup consists of a lot of predictions because Sonic is really fast. Sonic's nairs WILL trade with Ness. Also, double jump cancelled fairs as well, but only if executed quickly.

Yup.
Moral of the story: Lots of Nairs/Fairs/DJC. PK fire helps control the pace of the match, and be prepared offstage because Sonic will pretty much always come for you.

 

[LydianAlchemist]

What I do know is that Ness's Nair beats Sonic's spin dash so you can use that to beat out Sonic's spin dash if you are able to react/read the down B.

This.

My friend, the best PM player I know and play with regularly, is a sonic main (and I'm a Ness main). You gotta utilize that nair every chance you get. eventually he stops using that as an approach once you punish it enough.
short hop -> nair.
and you can grab him out of his spin dash thing when he is coming at you fast. the bat works wonders too. but a lot of it is timing, being able to figure out where he is gonna be..
Try to get PK Fire in as much as possible, that move pisses everyone off including me and if you're lucky you can chain 3-4 of them. the thing about sonic is sometimes his speed is his biggest weakness. short hop pk fire, short hop nair, short hop fair. and use PK flash when Sonic is trying to get back. If you can get the Sonic player to get pissed/angry they should start to mess up more.

I love aerial PK fire -> PK fire on ground -> grab -> dthrow - > bat.

But honestly I will say I think Sonic has the advantage in this MU

if you see a dair coming from sonic, WD back and Fsmash. a lot of times if you are both in the air just use the pk fire to try and get him in the chaos.

 

[Bryonato]

If your opponent knows how do DI you should never be able to chain 3/4 PKFires. Also does Dthrow even combo into bat?

 

[Nazo]

If your opponent knows how do DI you should never be able to chain 3/4 PKFires. Also does Dthrow even combo into bat?

Lol, I don't think Dthrow combos into bat. Unless the opponent has some funky kinda DI and no tech.

 

[Bryonato]

Yeah I didn't think so. I pulled that off on CF maybe twice when they missed a tech.

 

[LydianAlchemist]

Yeah I didn't think so. I pulled that off on CF maybe twice when they missed a tech.

He's stopped falling for it recently... PK fire isn't as useful anymore against him. He wasn't DI'ing out of it before.
I wish I could play him more often.

I'm still learning a lot, so I apologize if what I say isn't relevant.

 

[thesage]

Nair spam.