What buffs would you want for Roy?

[godogod]

Yes even though we got a patch last week with the last dlc, there's a pretty good chance we'll get one more patch for balancing(particularly for corrin and bayonetta).

So with that being said.. What realistic buffs would you like for Roy to stand out from the rest of FE cast and be more viable in general? What weaknesses need to be addressed?

 

[Yellowpikmin476]

I'd say, he should get a tad more mobility and less lag, and make his attacks a little stronger, while reducing his weight just a bit, so he's more of a glass cannon. I don't know if most people would want that, but that's how I envision Roy should be.

 

[godogod]

I'm fine with his mobility, strengthand weight personally.

However, how would you feel if his fall speed was lowered to be close to equaling to Marth's?(1.8 to 1.58 or in between). That and having less ending lag on down air would make his down air a lot safer to use. I'm not sure if that would make his aerials safer to use though.

 

[Yellowpikmin476]

That could work pretty well. The Down Air's hitbox could also be slightly increased.

 

[godogod]

Holy ****...Are we the only ones here?

 

[Reiks]

What I feel he needs:
Dtilt-Active for 1 more frame
Up air-12 frames instead of 14
Side b- Connecting better(side b2 hitbox is so small and everyone can di out of it starting from 50%-60% plus sideb1 sometimes knock them far away making it unreliable at times) give it a hitstun multiplier,set knockback or something, anything and it killing
Dair-Reduced endlag and a bigger hitbox
Neutral b-Active for 1 more frames(this move has low use due to low active frames and it doesn't hit below the ledge)

What I want but think isn't needed:
Damage increased for some of his moves(by .5%-1%) to make him safer on shield
Back throw being a combo throw(it has zero use to me)
Up tilt 2-3 Frames off(insanely laggy for its range and how small the sweetspot is compared to sour grounded)
Blazer(Aerial) killing slightly as early as grounded ver.
Dtilt knocking people up for follow ups instead of it being a poke

Roy is suppose be about pressure and killing early at close range yet there are other fe characters that can do this effectively.Feel free to judge harshly or not.

 

[TheClamFace]

Here's what I want-
Much less endlag on uptilt and f-tilt
Slightly less endlag on jab
Even less landing lag on aerials
Less endlag on nair and bair
more base knockback on uncharged Flare Blade
(Rework) dair needs less start-up, ending lag and landing lag. Hitboxes should be larger, sourspot should send away instead of straight up
(Rework) make side-b work like it did in melee, currently it's not that useful
(Rework) change downsmash- slightly more start-up, stronger, both swings come out extremely fast, both hits are equal in strength and send straight up

 

[Curleh_Mustache]

* slightly larger spike hitbox on d-air
* less lag on u-tilt
* a little more vertical distance on blazer
* revert d-tilt back into melee version
* more horizontal angle on back throw
* less lag on first hit of side b
* side b connects better

 

[DarkDeity15]

Bringing back Melee Dtilt by itself would help us quite a lot, we don't have very reliable kill setups, though I feel like jab was meant to replace Melee Dtilt. An increase in aerial acceleration would be great given that Roy has the 4th best air speed in the game, but is often not not really able to ustilize it due to poor areal acceleration and his fall speed. A range buff like the ones Marcina got isn't far off, I'm actually surprised they didn't do it. Lastly, Fair should come out as fast as Bair (frame 8) and auto cancel from a SH.

To be honest, the aerial mobility and Fair buffs I mentioned is really all he needs to be a serious threat. No fancy stuff like Melee Dtilt and DB is necessary.

 

[Reiks]

^Why a fair buff(other then landing or endlag).I don't see many roys use fair that often other then combos.Dtilt is one of roy's most used move yet we don't get much off it same for sideb.Getting the melee dtilt or a better sideb would seem to be much more helpful than a fair buff.

 

[amen]

What would I like to see?

• DED connecting more consistently
  
• jab endlag and KBG decreased
• Dtilt sweetspot KBG decreased and sourspot KBG increased
• DED actually slowing our descent in the air.

 

[Gawain]

My general thoughts right now are that Roy is very underrated and is not necessarily in need of a large number of buffs. However, some things that would make him very obviously a MUCH better character:

1. Jab starts 1 frame faster, has a slightly higher KB angle. This change would make DI'ing away from jab-blazer an impossibility, and would give Roy better but not broken CQC

2. Dthrow has just a tiny bit less base knockback and 2 frames less recovery. Allows combo into up b against bad DI on more than just pika/mk/etc

3. Lower fthrows knockback angle such that you can no longer avoid the tech chase by DI'ing up. This would damage fthrow combos but would make it so that fthrow gives reaction tech chases on all characters, not just non-floaties. A fair trade imo.

4. Dtilt pops opponents up as it did in Melee

All this being said, I'm actually pretty satisfied with the current Roy, and If he stays this way I wouldn't complain. Though it'd be neat if more of his moves had the fire.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

1. DED connects better (doubt this will ever happen considering the developers have failed to fix this issue for 6 patches now).

2. Less endlag on B-throw and Dair.

3. More vertical range on F-Smash + add fiery effects when sweetspotted to match the critical hit animation in binding blade.

4. More active frames and less startup on Flare Blade in exchange for slightly more endlag.

5. Increase the speed of Up B's animation so it travels as fast as Marth's.

6. Make D-Tilt pop the opponent up like in melee in exchange for dealing slightly less damage.

 

[Gawain]

You know, i never understood the whole DED not connecting all the way issue. I find that it connects rather well most of the time. I mean, if you hit at the very edge on an airborn opponent then yeah, it's probably not gonna connect all the way, but that's kinda the way many multi hit moves work in most games. It's part of the design of it.

Though the last post did remind me, b throw needs some kind of change. It's horrible and serves no purpose except MAYBE some fringe use in teams.

 

[IcyWind]

-bthrow and uthrow have less endlag
-upspecial loses startup frames or landing frames
-dair animation is changed to have a wider hitbox
or
-current dair is given less endlag in the air/landing

 

[ILOVESMASH]

You know, i never understood the whole DED not connecting all the way issue. I find that it connects rather well most of the time. I mean, if you hit at the very edge on an airborn opponent then yeah, it's probably not gonna connect all the way, but that's kinda the way many multi hit moves work in most games. It's part of the design of it.

The issue is more noticeable at high percents / if Roy has a ton of range, where hit one usually sends the opponent too high for the second hit to connect. This is pretty bad since Roy will eat a large punish afterwards as DED 1 has a lot of ending. I believe this was done for balance since DED is a frame 6 transcendent and the last hit can kill if sweet spotted.

Another with the move's connectivity is the user needs to make frame tight imputs for the next hit to actually connect (which is very noticeable on wifi).

 

[Flukey]

My general thoughts right now are that Roy is very underrated and is not necessarily in need of a large number of buffs. However, some things that would make him very obviously a MUCH better character:

1. Jab starts 1 frame faster, has a slightly higher KB angle. This change would make DI'ing away from jab-blazer an impossibility, and would give Roy better but not broken CQC

2. Dthrow has just a tiny bit less base knockback and 2 frames less recovery. Allows combo into up b against bad DI on more than just pika/mk/etc

3. Lower fthrows knockback angle such that you can no longer avoid the tech chase by DI'ing up. This would damage fthrow combos but would make it so that fthrow gives reaction tech chases on all characters, not just non-floaties. A fair trade imo.

4. Dtilt pops opponents up as it did in Melee

All this being said, I'm actually pretty satisfied with the current Roy, and If he stays this way I wouldn't complain. Though it'd be neat if more of his moves had the fire.

Pretty much the same opinion, and a little bit more of grab range would help him much more or less end lag in his grab

 

[Zoramine Fae]

As a Little Mac main, and having a secondary as Roy, I've got a few issues that I've got. I'll list my reasonings here.


- Forward Tilt needs to be more interesting due to it just being a bland move with little use in at least my gameplan. Something such as killing a bit earlier to reward players more or having a slightly weaker sweetspot and moderate knockback and increased damage on the sourspot to give Roy a sort-of spacing move that works more like a normal attack, or making it safe on shield to make Roy have some sort of protection. It's just lackluster right now.

- Down Tilt's sourspot could knock opponents at a heavily upwards angle for follow-ups, while the base still launches at a sort-of semispike angle to reward players more for 'spacing' with Roy, if thats even a thing. Down Tilt's sourspot should also hit ledge-hanging opponents with a slightly increased tip hitbox radius so he can poke at ledge campers, despite that being a bad idea anyways.

- Slight improvements on Dash Grab and Standing Grab's hitboxes. I've had repeated issues with grabbing opponents due to either a lack of range or just it whiffing entirely at point blank range, and this shouldn't be occurring. Otherwise his grab and pummel are pretty much good enough; range shouldn't be increased or anything janky like that. We don't need another Melee Marth in here.

- On the other hand, I have problems with all of his throws. Forward Throw, like others have said, should almost immediately give a tech chase against all characters no matter what. It's not bad right now, but it's just not all that useful.

- Down Throw needs more follow-ups, specifically needs to have hitstun lightly increased and its FAF frame decreased. Many other characters have grab follow-ups and Roy has a massive problem with shields due to the fact he has next to no safe on shield moves and a mostly poor throw game as of right now except for some not-always-guaranteed follow-ups.

- Back Throw I can't find a single use for due to it being so late to be able to act out of. If it were able to link into Back Air at higher percents with a reduced FAF frame, that'd be helpful. Like, immensely.

- I have problems connecting Double-Edged Dance together, despite my rather good timing at it due to practicing for three years in Brawl then going to Smash 4 with the intent of using Marth/Lucina then getting Roy. It's always the fourth hit that seems to not want to connect; maybe make it faster for the third to fourth hits to connect?


Other than that Roy's pretty much good;

 

[godogod]

What if Roy's down air stopped all momentum, or just even a bit (like lucario's current down air)? Would that be a good alternative to bigger hitboxes and faster end lag? The main thing about down air is that its a bit too risky to use because he falls with the attack(and he has a fast fall speed), right?

 

[Zoramine Fae]

What if Roy's down air stopped all momentum, or just even a bit (like lucario's current down air)? Would that be a good alternative to bigger hitboxes and faster end lag? The main thing about down air is that its a bit too risky to use because he falls with the attack(and he has a fast fall speed), right?

How would that make sense, however?

 

[godogod]

Roy's down aerial is incredibly risky to use mid air outside of the stage for spikes. I'm guessing it has some reduced momentum already, he still falls fast enough as it is. But having down air complete stop like Mewtwo, I'm thinking it would be safer to get back on the stage immediately right after.. no?

I dont' know. I'm thinking about mewtwo's down air and how it completely stops momentum and how it could benefit Roy with his.

 

[TheEpicCD56]

-make Aerial Up B the same as grounded version
-make all aerials except dair AC in a SH
-less cooldown on all smash attacks and tilts
-melee dtilt
-more horizontal range on utilt and slightly more vertical range on ftilt
-melee side b
-make uncharged neutral b have actual kill power
-less lag on dair

 

[godogod]

Melee side b is awful and shadowball is powerful enough as it is.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

Maybe he doesn't mean the ACTUAL Melee Side B in how it was then, but make each hit past the second be able to kill and a downwards angle be a semi-spike like Marth's was, and have it be slower and more powerful. So like a useful Heavy Blade custom.

 

[godogod]

Oh crap I'm sorry. I thought I was in the Mewtwo board >_>

In terms of end lag, I think most of his moves are fine. If there was any real issue, I'd say its down aerial so its more safe instead of risking an SD.

I don't have too much trouble with his side b, but having it connect easier would be fine.

 

[TheSpnBrm]

A clean up on his grabs would be a simple and potent buff. Lower the KBG on his Down and Forward Throws so he can combo at higher percents, Increase the hitstun on his down throw so Down Throw - Blazer can be a consistent kill option if you follow their DI. That or just make his Up Throw kill at like 135 -140 like Kirby. He just needs kill options out of grabs seeing how he is required to close to the gap, give him some flexible options when he does and he'll be that much more solid.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

A clean up on his grabs would be a simple and potent buff. Lower the KBG on his Down and Forward Throws so he can combo at higher percents, Increase the hitstun on his down throw so Down Throw - Blazer can be a consistent kill option if you follow their DI. That or just make his Up Throw kill at like 135 -140 like Kirby. He just needs kill options out of grabs seeing how he is required to close to the gap, give him some flexible options when he does and he'll be that much more solid.

Back Throw.

Literally, just that throw is all that I want to see buffed. Remove like half of its lag after use so it can actually combo into moves instead of just being a throw you use if you misinput.

 

[TheSpnBrm]

I feel it would be kinda strange to have 3 combo throws that end up not doing as much at higher percents versus having two that remain consistently good options and could help set up kills.

Honestly they don't even have to true combo into a kill (though it would nice) I just want Roy to flow better when bringing people to higher percents.

What did you have in mind for the back throw at those percents?

 

[RedAhmed]

I just want a range buff actually, that would satisfy me.
Other things:
- Slight buff to Blazer's horizontal and vertical distance coverage, Roy's recovery isn't good imo.
- Less end lag to Counter, it's not the best move to use off stage.
- Even less end lag to aerials, just slightly.
- Fix D-aerial's hitbox. Some have already said it, and I'm just bad at having it connect currently.


I'm not too sure what else Roy needs, I haven't put enough hours in playing Roy, and I'm not a good enough player.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

I just want a range buff actually, that would satisfy me.
Other things:
- Slight buff to Blazer's horizontal and vertical distance coverage, Roy's recovery isn't good imo.
- Less end lag to Counter, it's not the best move to use off stage.
- Even less end lag to aerials, just slightly.
- Fix D-aerial's hitbox. Some have already said it, and I'm just bad at having it connect currently.


I'm not too sure what else Roy needs, I haven't put enough hours in playing Roy, and I'm not a good enough player.

Not End Lag. That's not the problem.

Autocancel Windows. The frames that, if you land on these after using an aerial, the attack will have only the standard landing lag frames of about 2. THAT is what Roy needs.

 

[RedAhmed]

Not End Lag. That's not the problem.

Autocancel Windows. The frames that, if you land on these after using an aerial, the attack will have only the standard landing lag frames of about 2. THAT is what Roy needs.

So currently, Roy's aerials have no Autocancel windows at all? I've never noticed anything about this.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

So currently, Roy's aerials have no Autocancel windows at all? I've never noticed anything about this.

Their Autocancel windows are a bit awful, and Roy would massively benefit from this.

His Short Hop lasts 30 frames, after an initial 5 frames of jumpsquat, or the time from initiating a jump to being counted as airborne.

Neutral Air Autocancels at Frame 47, personally I'm fine with this since it sort of is good enough right now as is.

Forward Air Autocancels at frame 33, which is 3 less than what would be necessary, with perfect timing, to get off a Forward Air and have no lag upon landing. This would give Roy's Forward Air not only more use, but make it more like Marth's where you can land after hitting once then grab them if they remain in shield.

Back Air autocancels at frame 32, which is 2 away. Same issue as Forward Air. Literally, exactly the same.

Up Air autocancels at Frame 38, which could be lower to make Full Hop Up Air more useful.

Down Air... Don't touch it other than possibly hitbox size. It's good enough anyways.


Do you understand the problem now? None of his options in a Short Hop are able to cancel on landing, which sucks since you can't throw out an attack, land, then grab an opponent, and instead suffer lag on landing.

 

[RedAhmed]

Their Autocancel windows are a bit awful, and Roy would massively benefit from this.

His Short Hop lasts 30 frames, after an initial 5 frames of jumpsquat, or the time from initiating a jump to being counted as airborne.

Neutral Air Autocancels at Frame 47, personally I'm fine with this since it sort of is good enough right now as is.

Forward Air Autocancels at frame 33, which is 3 less than what would be necessary, with perfect timing, to get off a Forward Air and have no lag upon landing. This would give Roy's Forward Air not only more use, but make it more like Marth's where you can land after hitting once then grab them if they remain in shield.

Back Air autocancels at frame 32, which is 2 away. Same issue as Forward Air. Literally, exactly the same.

Up Air autocancels at Frame 38, which could be lower to make Full Hop Up Air more useful.

Down Air... Don't touch it other than possibly hitbox size. It's good enough anyways.


Do you understand the problem now? None of his options in a Short Hop are able to cancel on landing, which sucks since you can't throw out an attack, land, then grab an opponent, and instead suffer lag on landing.

Yeah, I get it now. I can see it can make Roy much better with better autocancel on his aerials, I never noticed.

But would buffing the autocancel windows benefit Roy that much? I mean, couldn't he need a buff in another area?

 

[Zoramine Fae]

Yeah, I get it now. I can see it can make Roy much better with better autocancel on his aerials, I never noticed.

But would buffing the autocancel windows benefit Roy that much? I mean, couldn't he need a buff in another area?

Roy's main problem is having no really safe attacks to use against shields. Sure, Down Tilt can poke and Neutral Air's 1st hitbox is pretty good, but being able to hit a shield then attack INSATANTLY unpon landing is insane. Let's take the example of Sheik's Forward Air into this account. Her Forward Air autocancels at frame 11 - What does this mean? At the apex of a jump, she can Forward Air a shield, fast fall down to the floor, suffer no lag due to its autocancel window being at Frame 11, and then immediately grab you. Ever wonder why her Forward Air is so ridiculous? It's not that it's absurdly fast, is a disjoint, can link into itself, and can even kill at later percents - It's the fact that there is absolutely no lag after the attack hits, giving Sheik infinite possibilities afterwards on how she wants to continue what she is doing.

We can even cover Marth's Forward Air, Back Air, and even Up Air while we are at it. All three of these autocancel before his short hop is over, meaning all of them can hit a shield and Marth can do anything afterwards, particularly a B-Reversed Shield Breaker in order to ruin shield-happy opponents. He can get a Forward Smash off on the shield drop, Forward Tilt for space if Forward Smash won't kill, or he can immediately jump back into the air if he doesn't like the position he is in.

Roy has none of this, and is a poorly constructed character who was made to be aggressive but is forced into a bait-and-punish role similarly to Ganondorf, with few approaching options despite a great Short Hop and running speed, poor killing tools that are laggy, and a problem against spacing and a problem spacing himself despite being made to 'dominate' against these playstyles. And that only scratches the SURFACE of what is wrong with him.

Hopefully this makes you understand.

EDIT: And to answer your last question, yes, Roy could also use buffs in other areas. However, this is his major issue that needs to be addressed.

 

[RedAhmed]

Roy's main problem is having no really safe attacks to use against shields. Sure, Down Tilt can poke and Neutral Air's 1st hitbox is pretty good, but being able to hit a shield then attack INSATANTLY unpon landing is insane. Let's take the example of Sheik's Forward Air into this account. Her Forward Air autocancels at frame 11 - What does this mean? At the apex of a jump, she can Forward Air a shield, fast fall down to the floor, suffer no lag due to its autocancel window being at Frame 11, and then immediately grab you. Ever wonder why her Forward Air is so ridiculous? It's not that it's absurdly fast, is a disjoint, can link into itself, and can even kill at later percents - It's the fact that there is absolutely no lag after the attack hits, giving Sheik infinite possibilities afterwards on how she wants to continue what she is doing.

We can even cover Marth's Forward Air, Back Air, and even Up Air while we are at it. All three of these autocancel before his short hop is over, meaning all of them can hit a shield and Marth can do anything afterwards, particularly a B-Reversed Shield Breaker in order to ruin shield-happy opponents. He can get a Forward Smash off on the shield drop, Forward Tilt for space if Forward Smash won't kill, or he can immediately jump back into the air if he doesn't like the position he is in.

Roy has none of this, and is a poorly constructed character who was made to be aggressive but is forced into a bait-and-punish role similarly to Ganondorf, with few approaching options despite a great Short Hop and running speed, poor killing tools that are laggy, and a problem against spacing and a problem spacing himself despite being made to 'dominate' against these playstyles. And that only scratches the SURFACE of what is wrong with him.

Hopefully this makes you understand.

EDIT: And to answer your last question, yes, Roy could also use buffs in other areas. However, this is his major issue that needs to be addressed.

Thanks, I get it now. I see how he'd improve with these buffs, makes sense with the Sheik and Marth example.
Question remains if there will ever be a another patch lol.

 

[Shuckle_SSB]

He's pretty fine the way he is honestly. Just needs representation.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I already think he's high tier, but I'm not going to be boring and not say anything.

Buffs within reason:
- A slight range increase, similar to what Marth got.
- Autocancel windows on some of his aerials.
- Decrease in falling speed and/or lower gravity.
- Something done to his down air to make it not suck.

Buffs that I want:
- Down tilt to hit below the ledge and for it to knock opponents upwards.
- Stronger down smash.
- Increased hilter hitbox on his up air, or at least a hitbox adjustment to make the hilt easier to land.
- Higher angle on forward throw.
- Less ending lag on back throw.
- More power on up throw.

 

[Kealmir]

I think slightly less end lag or KBG on this down throw would open up his early to mid combo game a lot, his Fair has some really nice follow ups at 20-30% but could use a good setup, but doesn't everyone want an aerial confirm out of throws these days?

Also with less end lag Down Throw to standing Blazer would pretty much be a kill confirm at 100-110% (but could change on how the KBG was affected) on most of the roster. The problem is most of his best options are just barely out of reach due to good DI and air dodge mix ups and I'm not the kind of person who likes to gamble when my recovery is bad and I have issues landing. I'm fine with those problems but I want a higher reward for his hit/grab confirms.

Short Answer: He needs a better Mid% combo game or guaranteed follow ups to cope with his weaknesses.

 

[Lady Kuki]

I fail to see a point in wishing for buffs seeing as how we've probably aren't getting more patches. Feels kinda depressing to talk about honestly, with how close he was to being amazing. However, if I really had to ask for buffs, it would be on these things:

Better range so he won't have to approach as often
Make his combos less DI-able
Maybe change his weight some so he won't be combo food
Autocancels

I think that's just about it...

 

[Jamble]

I don't think there's many big changes I'd want that wouldn't ruin the "feel" of Roy for me. Personally I feel like a lot of changes people suggest get him closer to just being a Marth clone again, and his fast-fally nature is something I really like. Warts and all, Roy is really good and most importantly has a really distinct feel. He's a blast to play as.

I also don't think his range needs to be buffed either. Unlike Marth he's very fast and his sword range is not an integral part of his gameplay (referring to tipper reliance here).

Part of the fun to me is that Roy doesn't have 100% surefire combos out the wazoo too, but has a ton of mixups and potential combos. Characters with 100% reliable combos get to feel boring to me.