What attacks do good players avoid using?

[Yoshister]

But hey you use yoshi as a main?

No. I main and .

Funnily enough, Yoshi has one of the worst grab games in the game.

 

[flamer180]

Do you play Pac-Man? Because if not, I don't understand how you think grabs are bad.

Well I didnt say they were bad. Just useless. To me I find no need to use them. Usually never comes up. Cause im always busy just attacking instead.

No. I main and .

Funnily enough, Yoshi has one of the worst grab games in the game.

LARRY!!! haha

doctor mario is such a random choice lol you should go back to using yoshi
thatd be awesome cause i also play with yoshi :D

really you say? ive never noticed lol

No. I main and .

Funnily enough, Yoshi has one of the worst grab games in the game.

And I'll play with you if I ever get the chance. I'll let you know if I do

 

[Wintermelon43]

Well I didnt say they were bad. Just useless. To me I find no need to use them. Usually never comes up. Cause im always busy just attacking instead.



LARRY!!! haha

doctor mario is such a random choice lol you should go back to using yoshi
thatd be awesome cause i also play with yoshi :D

really you say? ive never noticed lol



And I'll play with you if I ever get the chance. I'll let you know if I do

Useless = Bad. If you never find a use for them, what do you do aganist people holding down shield? Because an attack would get you punished whereas a grab would get the opponent punished.

And who do you use anyway? I'm sure there's a use for your character's grabs.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Yea I figured I might get banned or something lol

I know how picky some websites can be haha

What is a NNID then?

I have to access the eshop somehow.
Also, please refrain from insult other people's mains. This is pretty much the lowest anyone can go.

 

[Bigbomb2]

Back on track, are we talking specific attacks or attack types in general (like charge melee attacks like Kirby and Dedede's hammer)?

 

[Yoshister]

Back on track, are we talking specific attacks or attack types in general (like charge melee attacks like Kirby and Dedede's hammer)?

I think we can discuss any move and why high level players don't use them.

 

[Bigbomb2]

Alright then, then I'd probably put Ike's Dsmash in the higher echelon of bad moves in general. There is almost no reason to use it over his other options in a situation you'd ever think of using it. The back hit is the only decent part of it. At least Link and Tink's Dsmash comes out quick and swing behind them quick.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Marth and Lucina's Down Air isn't the best thing. It's laggy, and frankly rarely gets a spike off. If you land in the ground with it, you have a lot of endlag, too...

 

[KniteBlargh]

@der Rabe I hope I'm answering this in a way you were hoping for, though much of this is probably obvious.

As far as Jigglypuff goes, I see a lot of inexperienced players use rollout like it's Mario's up smash (don't hurt me). Every move can have its moment of glory (i.e. using rollout to tech chase), but when it comes to optimal play, one of course wants to use the move that would be optimal. In most cases, rollout is extremely telegraphed, easy to punish in multiple situations, risks SDing, and the hitbox is pretty gross too.

A couple other moves that are generally avoided are sing (outside of the occasional ledge-canceled sing and use as a taunt), and down smash (very limited hitbox, practically inside of Puff).

Also, this isn't so much of a move as a maneuver, but I've noticed (especially on For Glory when people have decided to Puff ditto me) a tendency to spam air dodges to death until they think they're within rest range... This is such a bad idea on so many levels, I wouldn't know where to start.

 

[Crystanium]

KniteBlargh I agree. I feel that inexperienced RosaLuma players use f-air often as well, even though it's slow, or using Forward-B, even though that can be seen from a mile away and Luma can get punished for it. From my experience as Samus, using f-air as a way to get onto the stage from the ledge is mostly impractical for those who are short, since Samus will just go over them. There's also the risk of not using f-air completely, causing Samus to have landing lag.

I agree with most here who said that any attack depends on the situation and there's a time and place for them. I suppose for a Samus main, jabs and tilts would be optimal attacks while in CQC.

 

[Jakkun]

Robin's Down B is one of those moves that are very solid on paper, but the sheer amount of lag for whiffing it means you can only use it when you know its gonna land. Usually outside of Arcfire/Thunder combos and hard reads it is seldom used.

Personally, i'm scared of just using the thing in general, because I know i'm in for a free punish if I screw up (and I usually do).

 

[Shollyboster]

I don't think you should look at it as never use X move because I think for a lot of less used moves there's a time and place for them. For example you should probably never use Falcon Punch, but if you saw Tearbear vs FOW even really bad moves can find a use if you have a read on someone or you're in the right spot.

Got it, I'll use more fully charged Roy neutral b in tourneys.

 

[Dade]

My post is fine. If you dont like it then boo hoo. Im not going to be fake for you or for anybody else



Dont use grab in general. For any character. Its useless.

Think about it, instead of using grab you could use something else to try and hit your opponent with.



There MIGHT be one or two exceptions, maybe for weak characters like jigglypuff it might come in handy.

For characters like Little Mac though, who has power and speed, its useless



They are useless lol I dont know what a shield breaker is or a spot dodge, I just know how to play haha

Coming from someone whos been brainwashed just like tons of other players that the grab actually has use lol

Believe me, I understand. Alot of you guys could use improvement. Ive watched many tournaments, and alot of you play like chickens.
Not to be rude or anything, but thats just the fighting style I see from alot of people haha

I could definately help people to become better. If you dont believe me, you could battle me and find out. Im not just talking crap. I actually know what Im talking about.

Oh. You're a troll.

 

[Lord Dio]

Counters, reflectors, absorptions, and other healing moves I find are rarely seen or used by pros due to the risk of using them outweighing the reward. The same goes for moves like ZSS dair, Sonic dair, Bowser Bomb,Yoshi's down special, moves that send your character plummeting towards the ground, because those moveshave a slow startup and thus can be read and punished. The exception to that would the Falcon and Warlock Kicks since the have other uses on the ground and can be used for recovery.

As a Cloud main, the things I don't use the most are his grab and regular Cross Slash. Regular Cross Slash can be hard to hit with, and can be DI'ed out of. For grabs, Cloud has......mediocre grab range, and have found trouble getting combos out of throws. I've gone through tournaments and played pretty well without using my grabs or throws.

 

[Crystanium]

Counters, reflectors, absorptions, and other healing moves I find are rarely seen or used by pros due to the risk of using them outweighing the reward. The same goes for moves like ZSS dair, Sonic dair, Bowser Bomb,Yoshi's down special, moves that send your character plummeting towards the ground, because those moveshave a slow startup and thus can be read and punished. The exception to that would the Falcon and Warlock Kicks since the have other uses on the ground and can be used for recovery.

As a Cloud main, the things I don't use the most are his grab and regular Cross Slash. Regular Cross Slash can be hard to hit with, and can be DI'ed out of. For grabs, Cloud has......mediocre grab range, and have found trouble getting combos out of throws. I've gone through tournaments and played pretty well without using my grabs or throws.

I notice a lot more use of counters, reflectors, and absorption is used online, whereas offline that stuff wouldn't fly. So I agree with you on that. Sonic's d-air is surprisingly nigh unpunishable. Although I started this thread, I suppose I'll give my input with Samus. Her jab 1 is good for poking and has a large hit box. It's strange to think that even that attack can clank with stronger attacks. F-tilt is also useful because of the range and speed. These are really the only two attacks Samus has to use if she's in close combat because after using these attacks, she can run off.

 

[Lord Dio]

I notice a lot more use of counters, reflectors, and absorption is used online, whereas offline that stuff wouldn't fly. So I agree with you on that. Sonic's d-air is surprisingly nigh unpunishable. Although I started this thread, I suppose I'll give my input with Samus. Her jab 1 is good for poking and has a large hit box. It's strange to think that even that attack can clank with stronger attacks. F-tilt is also useful because of the range and speed. These are really the only two attacks Samus has to use if she's in close combat because after using these attacks, she can run off.

Hmm, more use online makes sense, you just don't see them used events due to the risk outweighing the reward.
Sonic's dair nigh unpunishable? That's an interesting surprise. I might look into that a bit more.

 

[Crystanium]

Hmm, more use online makes sense, you just don't see them used events due to the risk outweighing the reward.
Sonic's dair nigh unpunishable? That's an interesting surprise. I might look into that a bit more.

Yeah, check it out. I was watching my brother fight a Sonic online and when Sonic used d-air, he immediately was able to attack my brother as if he had no lag. I was surprised because I expected at least a little bit of lag like Zero Suit Samus' d-air.

 

[Ludwigvongamer (Mobtink)]

As a Bowser main, I almost never use down air. Too laggy, too predictable, and since it's one of the ones where they go down as they do it, (there was a term. I forget that term.) it's actually possible to react to it. In the few situations where it can be used, you're almost always better off using bowser bomb instead.

When I play Mac though, (my other main) other than his aerials, I'd say it's pretty universal that nobody ever uses neutral b. Too much startup, has a pretty wonky hit box actually, and, when fully charged, it has an actual metric TON of ending lag.

 

[Charu]

Egg roll for Yoshi

Good for the rare surprise attack (lol, very debatable), but wowie, don't even think about it.

 

[KirbCider]

For King Dedede:

This one should be kind of obvious, but you never want to spam his Smash Attacks (Mainly F-Smash) nor use them however you please. I can't tell you how many times I've seen King Dededes on For Glory only rely on Smash Attacks to try to KO an opponent only to fail miserably because they don't understand this simple concept. You should also avoid using his Dash Attack, or at the very least use it in moderation. It can be risky and should only be used if you know how to get hard reads, or used to punish stupid mistakes.

While these attacks can KO very early it does not mean they are the best moves in the game. Seriously.

For ROB:

Most complain about ROBs who spam his Lasers and Gyros; however one of the biggest mistakes I see some ROBs do whenever I find them online is they like to rely on his Side B far too much. It's a good move and all but it's far from a smart move, especially when it comes to spam. It leaves you open to punishes if you miss and it can be shielded very easily. Personally, I like to use it roll happy opponents cause they usually roll right into it while it's still going but even then it's kind of risky. Be smart, and use with caution.

For Bayonetta:

FOR ALL THAT IS HOLY DON'T SPAM WITCH TIME. THE STUPIDEST THING A BAYONETTA CAN DO IS SPAM IT.

This can go for any counter, but I've heard/read that counters should only be used once or twice in a match. They're risky and if you're stupid enough to use Bayonettas counter a lot you're going to suffer dearly. So it's less of avoid and more along the lines of please have a brain. Please. I'm begging you. Other than that, I'm not sure if you should 100% "Avoid" this, but her grounded Side B isn't always the safest bet. While it's a good combo starter it's shielded and avoided super easily. It's another one of those "Don't Spam" ones.

 

[DarkAuraful]

: Aerial fairs are sometimes not the best solution to initiate a offensive approach, particularly when someone like Robin shields and grabs you with a punish right after. Dair is pretty hard to land to, so that's a no as well.
: Spending the whole game shooting arrows then running away when you go after them. I think it's ok for Sudden Death matches, but Link's already strong enough with his strength and range. Thank god the ones I run into in FG don't do that anymore.
: Do NOT be a Link and spam Dragon Shot like there's no tomorrow unless you want someone like Mewtwo or Pit to slap it back silly. I've seen players use Dragon Lunge at times that I don't think it'd be the best for too.

I'd say for spamming counters for Lucina and Corrin, but thankfully the ones I meet nowadays only do it in well-timed scenarios.

 

[Agitato]

TL;DR - pros rely heavily on safe moves that put them in an advantageous position. Moves that are slow and unsafe still have their uses, but you'll employ them less often - i.e., you might see a pro Ike player use Counter once in a set, or maybe not at all, though it can be useful for edgeguarding some characters.

 

[Conn1496]

One thing I've not seen people bring up is anything past Jr.'s Jab1. Jab1 is already situational but Jr's whole Jab might actually be the worst move (Not just Jab.) in the game. It can basically always be DI'd out of in my experience. It's only saving grace is that it's frame 4, can jab-lock and KOs about 150% if the opponent doesn't DI out of it. It's literally not even a training room combo at some %s, I can't stress that enough.

I've... -I've died trying to use this move. Both in game and a little part of me IRL died when I got bodied BC it can literally be DI'd out of at basically any %.

This is honestly worse than Samus' Jab - I speak from experience. Literally. It's slower, isn't as safe, and at least Samus' Jab 1 can push people back or confirm a KO with charge shot at really high %s and can actually true-combo into itself at some %s. Jr.'s Jab basically never does if your opponent is anything above "non-vegetative" and knows about DI.

Being KO'd by this move might actually be more disgraceful than being combo'd between 3 Ganon U-Tilts. That's how bad I think this move is. lol

 

[Deleted member]

's entire moveset.

 

[Routa]

- U-throw. It is just not worth it majority of the time. It has very little combos from it and they only work at low %.
- F-Smash. It has its uses, but only in hard as reads/punishes or after a shieldbreak. Generally you don't see this being thrown out unless it was a missinput.
- Rapid Jab. Poor damage, easy to get out and overall not worth it when you can get a grab/D-tilt/U-tilt combo or even a kill with UU between after Jab1 and Jab2.


- U-throw. It is basically worse D-throw. It has pretty much no combo potential. D-Throw is ALWAYS a better option.
- Pummel. Low and slow damage. You are better off by just throwing before they get released from grab.


- Dair. Worst Dair in game. Do I need to explain more?
- F-tilt. It is generally overshadowed by Gunner's F-Smash. It has low damage, mediocre framedata and is generally not worth of using when you can just F-Smash.

I might talk about specials later, but thous are moves which are not good at top or even at low lvls of play.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

- Dair. Worst Dair in game. Do I need to explain more?

says hello. Really easy to escape, tons of lag for no reason, and a horrible knockback angle. It does decent damage, but that's it.

 

[Routa]

says hello. Really easy to escape, tons of lag for no reason, and a horrible knockback angle. It does decent damage, but that's it.

Comes out on frame 20, only active for 1 frame, Faf is 55, hitbox is a lot smaller than the animation makes it look, mediocre damage etc. If you get killed by this move... Well you should quit Sm4sh. There is no situation where you should use this move.

 

[Conn1496]

Comes out on frame 20, only active for 1 frame, Faf is 55, hitbox is a lot smaller than the animation makes it look, mediocre damage etc. If you get killed by this move... Well you should quit Sm4sh. There is no situation where you should use this move.

Yeah I agree, especially when not one, but two gunner Up-Bs are strictly better replacement D-airs IMO (Yes, I'd even argue Lunar Launch.).

I actually use Uppercut as Gunner because I'm hugely aggressive as them (I offset it by using Vortex to try and boost double-jumps when needed.) and it's basically almost always better as a spike and funnily enough a D-air in general. The only time you should be using D-air is when you need the extra mobility and spiking power, like to follow-up from Grenades and--... Actually, as a stronger Grenade KO confirm is basically it's only good use...

When your move is only good when you know you can hit it, then, well...

I will say too that Pac-Man D-air has cherry-tap value. It's really good for gimping "one hit and you're gone" recoveries and stealing double jumps since it's Pac-Man's only multihit air. Gunner D-air doesn't even have that going for it. lol

 

[L9999]

Ness PKFire. Very laggy and SDIable. Ness Dair is trash. Frame freaking 20 and crappy range, too much endlag, and tons of landing lag so it cannot be followed upon if somehow the opponent didn't tech the spike. Or got hit in the first place. If it were 64 Dair everyone would cry, I guarantee it.

 

[Conn1496]

Ness PKFire. Very laggy and SDIable. Ness Dair is trash. Frame freaking 20 and crappy range, too much endlag, and tons of landing lag so it cannot be followed upon if somehow the opponent didn't tech the spike. Or got hit in the first place. If it were 64 Dair everyone would cry, I guarantee it.

I'd actually disagree with both of these. PK Fire for fairly obvious reasons (Ranged pressure, can KO confirm / combo - if you're not garbage and spammy with it and know when to use it.).

D-air is a weird one though because even though it sucks hard it autocancels from frames 1-freaking19. So yeah, you're probably not gonna attack using D-air any time soon, but if you need to land and you're in tumble state, the move gives you a massive window for a lagless landing.

D-air - because Ness doesn't even need skill to autocancel out of tumble. (Hurr, braindead character joke, please don't kill me, I actually think Ness is pretty difficult to play competently.)

 

[Jonn]

Good players do not avoid using moves - they only avoid using moves at inappropriate times.

 

[Conn1496]

Good players do not avoid using moves - they only avoid using moves at inappropriate times.

So what you're saying is that good players avoid using moves? Nice.

Joking aside, there are moves in this game that are literally never the optimal option. Moves like F-tilt or U-tilt I've seen on many occasion players saying to literally never use those moves. Sure you can hit with them, but if you can hit with those, chances are you had a chance to hit with something equal or better. Pretty sure those are the kinda moves that this thread is on about.

 

[Creckut]

Good players do not avoid using moves - they only avoid using moves at inappropriate times.

I second this mans opinion, all moves can be used and should be used as long as it is an appropriate time to use them.

Moves like F-tilt or U-tilt I've seen on many occasion players saying to literally never use those moves

I don't personally use these characters but a good friend of mine mains Ganon and, it may be a rare occasion, but he does find some opportunities to use up tilt. Most of the time he uses it as a safer way to edge guard an opponent recovering at mid-height at higher percents. Regardless, if you know its timing it can actually be pretty accuratly landed.
Now, to go against everything I said earlier, my girlfriend plays an ok Palutena and i have never seen her use forward tilt, it seems like her jab can pretty much cover what f-tilt does with less risk

 

[Conn1496]

I don't personally use these characters but a good friend of mine mains Ganon and, it may be a rare occasion, but he does find some opportunities to use up tilt. Most of the time he uses it as a safer way to edge guard an opponent recovering at mid-height at higher percents. Regardless, if you know its timing it can actually be pretty accuratly landed.
Now, to go against everything I said earlier, my girlfriend plays an ok Palutena and i have never seen her use forward tilt, it seems like her jab can pretty much cover what f-tilt does with less risk

I think Ganon U-tilt can be an okay option, but the problem with it as a move is that at even a remotely higher level, your other options either give out a proportionally higher risk/reward, or just pose no real risk at all in the first place.

U-tilt requires a really tough read to pull off well, and while satisfying, it's probably not going to get you anything a well placed or timed air will - and they're often easier to perform. Even in cases where you're contesting dangerous moves like Ike's Aether or MK's Drill, a well placed D-air will probably end a stock safely more times than a U-tilt ever will (Especially in the case of Aether which has a tendency to hit really far into the stage.).

Unless you really, really need that explosive disjoint to 2-frame your opponent, which again, is a monumental read that a D-air can cover usually just as well (still from on stage and with less read required, no less), then there's no real point to using U-tilt.

As for Palu F-tilt, yeah, there's almost always a better move to throw out. D-tilt is generally better for neutral since you can act so quickly out of it and it covers basically as much horizontal distance as F-tilt, and if you need something quick or more vertical, then a Jab > Grab tends to give so, so much more (U-tilt is also frame 10 and not unusable by any means, so that's always something to consider.). There are incredibly, incredibly rare scenarios where F-tilt is an okay option, but as with the above example, it's nothing that other moves can't handle basically infinitely better.

To drive the "F-tilt is really awful" point home some more - not only is Palu's F-smash faster than her F-tilt, but it lasts for less frames and does more damage, and the hitbox is probably not as bad either, all things considered. F-tilt's only saving grace is that it has 2 hits instead of 1... But yeah, just avoid F-tilt. lol

 

[MajinBuu272]

Grab is NOT essential like you seem to think it is. How about you just zip your arrogant mouth, and battle me. Then we can see if Im talking crap.

I'd pay money to see FamilyTeam destroy flamer180

 

[Creckut]

I'd pay money to see FamilyTeam destroy flamer180

I am SO with you there.

I think Ganon U-tilt can be an okay option, but the problem with it as a move is that at even a remotely higher level, your other options either give out a proportionally higher risk/reward, or just pose no real risk at all in the first place.

U-tilt requires a really tough read to pull off well, and while satisfying, it's probably not going to get you anything a well placed or timed air will - and they're often easier to perform. Even in cases where you're contesting dangerous moves like Ike's Aether or MK's Drill, a well placed D-air will probably end a stock safely more times than a U-tilt ever will (Especially in the case of Aether which has a tendency to hit really far into the stage.).

Unless you really, really need that explosive disjoint to 2-frame your opponent, which again, is a monumental read that a D-air can cover usually just as well (still from on stage and with less read required, no less), then there's no real point to using U-tilt.

As for Palu F-tilt, yeah, there's almost always a better move to throw out. D-tilt is generally better for neutral since you can act so quickly out of it and it covers basically as much horizontal distance as F-tilt, and if you need something quick or more vertical, then a Jab > Grab tends to give so, so much more (U-tilt is also frame 10 and not unusable by any means, so that's always something to consider.). There are incredibly, incredibly rare scenarios where F-tilt is an okay option, but as with the above example, it's nothing that other moves can't handle basically infinitely better.

To drive the "F-tilt is really awful" point home some more - not only is Palu's F-smash faster than her F-tilt, but it lasts for less frames and does more damage, and the hitbox is probably not as bad either, all things considered. F-tilt's only saving grace is that it has 2 hits instead of 1... But yeah, just avoid F-tilt. lol

Yeah your definitly right, I agree with you in the sense of practicality, but I have to add that U-Tilt does have ONE thing over almost all of Ganons other moves, "hype"

 

[Mordecai Hazard]

Spam, because almost anyone bad on for glory does that (*cough* links).

 

[mario123007]

I know the dude is unactive for a while but I am still gonna reply anyway.

My post is fine. If you dont like it then boo hoo. Im not going to be fake for you or for anybody else

You can post whatever you want, don't double post... IT ISN'T THAT HARD!

I take it you musn't play any character that has a good grab? Like Mario, Luigi, anyone in High or Top Tier?
I mean, what are you gonna do when somebody is shielding, swat at their shield with your jab and ironically get grabbed yourself?

Let's not forget there a character that can KO you with a back throw...

There's a reason top 's don't use Blade Beam.

Unless you have Limit break charged.

No thank you. There is nothing wrong with multiple post. It is only clutter if someone looks at it like clutter.

I honestly dont see a problem with it.

They should have just threaten you to get banned, geez...

Ehhh. To me grabs arent important. Personally.

Grabs are actually important. They are great combo startups and pressuring opponents. If you saw opponent shield a lot, grab them.

 

[SJMistery]

Just saw that Smash attacks are rarely used in high-level. Does that extend to Greninja? because i find the Down-Throw to Side Smash very usefull for racking ramage at the start of the match, and the Up Smash can be chained into itself at lower percents for a nice chunk of damage thanks to the relatively low base knockback... I sometimes say that the developers got confused and gave Greninja 5 tilts, hahah. The down Smash instead, I can't recall the last time I used that crap, lol. It cannot even punish rolls safely...

By the way, from all counters, Greninja's Substitute is the one you have to be most careful with using. Reserve it for very laggy attacks, in particular for a get-up attack, which is basically the only one that is universally slow enough for the Substitute to hit the opponent. In any other case, you will get a shield punish.

Robin's Down B is one of those moves that are very solid on paper, but the sheer amount of lag for whiffing it means you can only use it when you know its gonna land. Usually outside of Arcfire/Thunder combos and hard reads it is seldom used.

Personally, i'm scared of just using the thing in general, because I know i'm in for a free punish if I screw up (and I usually do).

I hear you. This move is the main reason I never get the hang of Robin. I keep thinking of it as a Counter, like any other FE caracther's down B. Goddamn muscle memory! Even if I land it, ir does almost negligible damage unless there is a big percentage difference, and heals even less.

I wish they had done that with Nosferatu: you get hit, don't take damage, the opponent takes 1,3 damage he was going to cause, you recover half, the opponent gets released. Basically, a counter that instead of almost killing the opponent in one shot if you get hit by a Smash attack, it heals you for a good amount. It would be WAY more usefull this way and even more unique as an attack. By the way, I am the only that wonders why they did not use Moonlight instead? On attack phase, it is basically a non-dark magic Nosferatu. It would make more sense