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What are your thoughts about Joker/Ren getting in before Bomberman?

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kaithehedgefox

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I would envision Bomberman as being potentially ridiculously OP due to outstanding damage output and amazing recovery, but having a very, very steep learning curve due to his kit's many time-delayed attacks that can be turned against him.
Actually Bomberman wouldn't be as OP as you think. Bomberman's bombs would just be similar to Mega Man's hyper bomb. And his smash attacks would be very similar to Naruto's Rasengan.

That isn't how that works. They chose the roster when the project plan started. They didn't say "Hey, let's make this character an assist to piss of their fans." They actually are more like "Hey, we don't have enough time and resources set aside to make this character, but we really think they have fans/are important to the industry/Nintendo- maybe we can make them an assist because it takes less time and resources to do." It still takes time and effort, but not as much. They got added as an assist because of their fans and importance. Smash Bros will never have a roster containing every character somebody in the world wants, but they try and give nods to the more popular and important characters in many different ways- Assists, Items, Stage elements, etc.
I mean you realize that judging by the files in game Plant was planned for base but had to be pushed back so the rest of the roster could be finished in time hence why it was released as free DLC for a while yeah
But why didn't they just make Beck (Mighty no 9), or Quote (Cave Story) an assist trophy instead, and release Bomberman as a DLC? Why do they even have to wait till Smash 6 for Bomberman to be playable?
 
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DonkaFjord

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I mean you realize that judging by the files in game Plant was planned for base but had to be pushed back so the rest of the roster could be finished in time hence why it was released as free DLC for a while yeah
I was just about to say this. I almost want to say it was even referenced in one of Sakurai's columns or interviews too that he was originally going to be part of the base game but didn't get finished in time.

But why didn't they just make Beck (Mighty no 9), or Quote (Cave Story) an assist trophy instead, and release Bomberman as a DLC? Why do they even have to wait till Smash 6 for Bomberman to be playable?
Because they didn't- Bomberman is more iconic than Quote and especially Beck. Konami is also already working with the Smash team so legal rights would be easier.
If they had infinite time to add every character ever then Bomberman would be in. The devs don't want to leave characters out- they try to squeeze in as many as possible (Which is why assists even exist in the first place.) It seems that there were circumstances that led to Bomberman not being chosen as a playable character so they included him as an assist for the fans.

I think the fact that needs to be stressed is that the Playable fighters are picked FIRST. They don't choose the assists first and the choose the playable characters and say "Oh darn, we were going to pick bomberman but we are already planning to make him an assist... so guess no bomberman."
The reality is that assists are picked after the playable roster. So even if they didn't include bomberman as an assist, it doesn't mean he would be playable. It is very likely he wouldn't have appeared at all. A bomberman references is better in my book then no reference at all. Especially with Nintendo choosing DLC- who knows what they'll pick.


Tbh I wish Konami's Dance Dance Revolution got even an assist- it is a popular game with an influence on arcade rhythm games and pop culture. I would say it had a large impact on the genre and arcades. It'd be cool if one of the dancers from the game were summoned like Yuni Verse and arrows would fly across the screen (like Pac-Man's ghost assist) and the arrows wouldn't hurt you if you moved in the direction or used a directional attack in the direction the arrow was pointing (Or the arrows launch you in the direction they were pointing. Either way would be fun.)
 
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kaithehedgefox

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Because they didn't- Bomberman is more iconic than Quote and especially Beck. Konami is also already working with the Smash team so legal rights would be easier.
If they had infinite time to add every character ever then Bomberman would be in. The devs don't want to leave characters out- they try to squeeze in as many as possible (Which is why assists even exist in the first place.) It seems that there were circumstances that led to Bomberman not being chosen as a playable character so they included him as an assist for the fans.

I think the fact that needs to be stressed is that the Playable fighters are picked FIRST. They don't choose the assists first and the choose the playable characters and say "Oh darn, we were going to pick bomberman but we are already planning to make him an assist... so guess no bomberman."
The reality is that assists are picked after the playable roster. So even if they didn't include bomberman as an assist, it doesn't mean he would be playable. It is very likely he wouldn't have appeared at all. A bomberman references is better in my book then no reference at all. Especially with Nintendo choosing DLC- who knows what they'll pick.
But if playbale characters are chosen first, and assist trophies are chosen afterwards. Why didn't they just not have Bomberman as an assist trohpy, and release him as a DLC fighter after the release of smash ultimate?

And also they could've just had Klonoa as an assist trophy instead.
 

osby

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But if playbale characters are chosen first, and assist trophies are chosen afterwards. Why didn't they just not have Bomberman as an assist trohpy, and release him as a DLC fighter after the release of smash ultimate?

And also they could've just had Klonoa as an assist trophy instead.
Because apparently they didn't want to prioritize him as a fighter, simple as that.
 

Xquirtle

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I mean you realize that judging by the files in game Plant was planned for base but had to be pushed back so the rest of the roster could be finished in time hence why it was released as free DLC for a while yeah
Maybe thats true, but I think the "free" aspect of it shows that nintendo knows that Plant is filler material. Let's say the same thing happened to Incineroar or Richter / Simon, as in they missed the retail launch... Nintendo could easily release them as DLC 1 and request the typical 6 dollars out of everybody. They are of DLC quality. Plant was free because it would be a joke to charge money for that character, because it is literally a joke filler character just meant to add some flavor to their in game montages. My original "opinion" was wtf is Plant doing in this game over a variety of other more requested characters (Nintendo used dev time and money to make plant instead of something else). Knowing that we are only getting so many of these, I find it to be disappointing that one of the new characters is plant (also think Izzy is lame and dumb).
 

Aeon_Shadow

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I'm just saying that plant is a derp character that is not deserving of a DLC slot. It should have just been a base line addition that was exciting for like 20 minutes after you unlock it for the first time. Unless nintendo drops a big ole turd, plant will be the least popular DLC character by far. The only redeeming factor is that most of us did not have to pay 6 dollars to get her.
I see you're one of those people who thinks the Plant is a girl...
 

kaithehedgefox

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Because apparently they didn't want to prioritize him as a fighter, simple as that.
But Bomberman is more iconic than Joker/Ren, so why didn't they just have Joker/Ren as an assist trophy, and Bomberman as a DLC playable character?
 

osby

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But Bomberman is more iconic than Joker/Ren, so why didn't they just have Joker/Ren as an assist trophy, and Bomberman as a DLC playable character?
Because Smash is not a "who is more iconic?" contest.
 

DonkaFjord

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But Bomberman is more iconic than Joker/Ren, so why didn't they just have Joker/Ren as an assist trophy, and Bomberman as a DLC playable character?
It just isn't the way it panned out.
I don't think this is necessarily the best board for this discussion. You are asking a lot of people interested in Joker why bomberman didn't get in. There isn't any correlation between the two- you are connect two separate decisions as if they were one decision. As if only one of the two could be playable and the other had to be an assist when they both could have been playable or not. Nintendo seems to be handling the decision making for DLC. It was a separate decision from the roster and the assists probably done late in game development when (presumably) the roster and assists would have been finished.

It wasn't a one or the other decision. It is just how it panned out- I know it sucks that your favorite character isn't playable, but hey- at least someone else's favorite got in. Also your character also made it in the game at least- which is more than can be said for countless others.

Playable fighters are the best part of Smash, but they aren't the end-all-be-all form of representation in the game. I am sorry Bomberman isn't playable, but it really didn't have anything to do with Joker.
 

kaithehedgefox

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It just isn't the way it panned out.
I don't think this is necessarily the best board for this discussion. You are asking a lot of people interested in Joker why bomberman didn't get in. There isn't any correlation between the two- you are connect two separate decisions as if they were one decision. As if only one of the two could be playable and the other had to be an assist when they both could have been playable or not. Nintendo seems to be handling the decision making for DLC. It was a separate decision from the roster and the assists probably done late in game development when (presumably) the roster and assists would have been finished.

It wasn't a one or the other decision. It is just how it panned out- I know it sucks that your favorite character isn't playable, but hey- at least someone else's favorite got in. Also your character also made it in the game at least- which is more than can be said for countless others.

Playable fighters are the best part of Smash, but they aren't the end-all-be-all form of representation in the game. I am sorry Bomberman isn't playable, but it really didn't have anything to do with Joker.
So why did they opt for Joker/Ren instead of Bomberman or any other iconic 3rd party character? It wouldn't be as shocking if Klonoa, Shantae, or Jibanyan got in before Bomberman.
 

DonkaFjord

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So why did they opt for Joker/Ren instead of Bomberman or any other iconic 3rd party character? It wouldn't be as shocking if Klonoa, Shantae, or Jibanyan got in before Bomberman.
They appear to be going for relevance. However, Persona's parent series, Shin Megami Tensei has been around a while and is popular in Japan with a global cult following. It also isn't a stranger to Nintendo hardware. There was even a spin off game on the Virtual Boy- which only had 22 games released for it before Nintendo dropped the system.
SMT even has a crossover game with Fire Emblem. Yes, I know Persona is different, but I don't think Joker is as impossible of a character as some people act like he was. He was just highly improbable.

Here's some food for thought. Persona started as a series back in 1996. It has stood the test of time.

I think the Smash fandom echo-chamber inflates the importance or iconicness of a few characters, so I disagree with your statement about which characters wouldn't be as shocking. I think to a lot of casual fans (who outnumber the hardcore and competitive fans in terms of sales) would be equally surprised by Klonoa/Shantae/Jibanyan.

Are you upset because a character without a large fan support made it in as DLC? Because Persona fans were wanting a character in Smash. It's just Persona, like Final Fantasy and Fire Emblem, has a rotating cast that changes with each game. Most people were rallying behind Atlus's "mascot," Jack Frost. People thought Joker would be too new and that the protags from 3 or 4 would be too old or not iconic enough (the side characters definitely shine through more as the protags can be blank slates) or the fact that most Persona games have appeared on Playstation. Persona 5 tried to add a lot of flavor into the game (even the UI!) which is why I think Joker stands out even to people who haven't played P5 and characters like Cloud and Bayonetta have proven that characters not necessarily tied to just Nintendo can make it in.
 

Aeon_Shadow

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So why did they opt for Joker/Ren instead of Bomberman or any other iconic 3rd party character? It wouldn't be as shocking if Klonoa, Shantae, or Jibanyan got in before Bomberman.
With all respect: I highly doubt anyone here can actually give a concise answer.

What I can say is you are comparing apples to oranges as Joker and Bomberman are from two different companies who have their own agendas: Maybe ATLUS gave the go for Joker yet Bomberman's company didn't/were only fine with him being an assist. Maybe Nintendo/Sakurai think Joker has more unique fighter potential/would be a better way to spread word of their game (helps that Sakurai is a fan of Persona 5). No one knows exactly why besides Sakurai/Nintendo/the companies themselves and it is unlikely they will ever spill the beans.

Not to mention the Joker and Bomberman arugment makes no sense since it can simply apply to any two unrelated characters, when it should make more sense for characters within their series/company. In Joker's case: I can get people wondering why him over any other Persona/SMT character but not Bomberman.
 
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Joker getting in had nothing to do with Bomberman becoming an Assist Trophy and vice versa, especially when Joker is owned by Sega/Atlus and Bomberman is owned by Konami.

To answer the question...
I've supported Bomberman since childhood, I've wanted him since Smash 64. Him being an Assist Trophy sucks, but if I had to choose between him and Joker... I would honestly choose Joker. I honestly have a stronger personal connection with Joker than I do with Bomberman; I was incredibly excited when Joker got confirmed and I don't think Bomberman could reach that same level.
 

kaithehedgefox

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Are you upset because a character without a large fan support made it in as DLC?
Well sorta. Bomberman should've been playable. And Joker/Ren shouldn't because of his insignificant support, that's why he should be an assist trophy instead of playable. Same with Klonoa, Arthur (Ghost and Goblins), and Jibanyan, there's not enough support and/or popularity for them.
It wouldn't be as shocking if Klonoa, Shantae, or Jibanyan got in before Bomberman.
And Arthur (Ghosts and Goblins), or Tails wouldn't be shocking at all.
 

Luigifan18

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Well sorta. Bomberman should've been playable. And Joker/Ren shouldn't because of his insignificant support, that's why he should be an assist trophy instead of playable. Same with Klonoa, Arthur (Ghost and Goblins), and Jibanyan, there's not enough support and/or popularity for them.

And Arthur (Ghosts and Goblins), or Tails wouldn't be shocking at all.
Oh... oh yikes. I agree with you (except about Klonoa, even if he is just discount Vaati), but yikes. You’re basically throwing rocks at a hornet's nest here.
 
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Aeon_Shadow

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Well sorta. Bomberman should've been playable. And Joker/Ren shouldn't because of his insignificant support, that's why he should be an assist trophy instead of playable. Same with Klonoa, Arthur (Ghost and Goblins), and Jibanyan, there's not enough support and/or popularity for them.

And Arthur (Ghosts and Goblins), or Tails wouldn't be shocking at all.
This debate will just go on forerver won't it?

Yeah I know it sucks when you don'tvget what you want but why ruin it for others? Heck the fact you're posting this thread in the Joker sub forum is a sign imo thatvyou are asking for backlash.
 

osby

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Well sorta. Bomberman should've been playable. And Joker/Ren shouldn't because of his insignificant support, that's why he should be an assist trophy instead of playable. Same with Klonoa, Arthur (Ghost and Goblins), and Jibanyan, there's not enough support and/or popularity for them.
Okay. So what? The reality isn't going to change based on what you think should've happened. Real world doesn't care what you think.
 

BZL8

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Didn't really care much about Bomberman since its gameplay never personally clicked with me, but I know people who are extremely disappointed that he was relegated to assist trophy status.

And Joker/Ren shouldn't because of his insignificant support, that's why he should be an assist trophy instead of playable
When a character that is greatly overlooked in the community ends up getting in, there are going to be people who are upset with the choice. I understand that; someone's gain is someone's loss. But the transaction already happened: a generally overlooked character got in over a character with greater support.
It is important to recognize that bigger support chains != higher chances of inclusion, especially on this forum. If that were the case, popular characters on this forum would have gotten in by now.

SmashBoards is only a fraction of the people buying the game, judgement rests on the development team, Sakurai, Bandai-Namco, Nintendo's various development teams, the third-parties involved, and whatever statisticians, analysts, and researchers are involved in development to determine the character roster. Just because a great fraction of SmashBoards supports a character doesn't necessarily mean the people who have final say see eye-to-eye.

And while we don't know at this point, if the challenger pack choices are going to get even crazier than Joker, you are going to find yourself getting more and more upset with the choices as the lineup is revealed. That is not going to leave you in the best mind.

The best advice I can tell you at this point is to just try to understand why a lot of people are excited about Joker's inclusion. Persona 5 is considered one of this generation's best JRPGs, and as someone who didn't get into the Persona series until P5 was released, I consider the game to be tied with "Nier: Automata" as the best console JRPG game I've played this generation. Don't be afraid to ask people on the Joker forums and even people outside SmashBoards, such as the Persona 5 Subreddit, JRPG forums, any other forum, or even people IRL who you know have played P5 why the game clicks with them.

But of course, the best way to understand the excitement behind Joker is to, of course, play Persona 5 . If you don't have a PS4 or PS3, dont worry. Strong rumors that Persona 5 is coming to Switch are abound in light of Joker's reveal. While not my recommended approach, have a go at watching footage of the game. And even if the game doesn't click with you, I hope you can least gain insight into why Joker's inclusion has many people excited.
 
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kaithehedgefox

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Okay. So what? The reality isn't going to change based on what you think should've happened. Real world doesn't care what you think.
Yeah I know, since all returning playable characters will be playable in Smash Ultimate and onward, Joker/Ren will be playable throughout the rest of the series.

And while we don't know at this point, if the challenger pack choices are going to get even crazier than Joker, you are going to find yourself getting more and more upset with the choices as the lineup is revealed. That is not going to leave you in the best mind.
Because apparently they didn't want to prioritize him as a fighter, simple as that.
I find it surprising. Why would they choose newcomers like, Joker/Ren, Shantae, Klonoa, Rayman, Arthur (Ghost and Goblins) or Jibanyan, instead of more supported characters, such as Tails, Knuckles, Waluigi, or Bomberman?

Seriously, Bomberman, or Rayman would've been a better addition then Joker/Ren. And a better assist trophy choice would've been Klonoa, Arthur (Ghost and Goblins), Frisk, or Jibanyan.
 
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osby

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Yeah I know, since all returning playable characters will be playable in Smash Ultimate and onward, Joker/Ren will be playable throughout the rest of the series.
Doubt it, Sakurai himself said all veterans returning has a slim chance of happening in the future.
 

BZL8

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I find it surprising. Why would they choose newcomers like, Joker/Ren, Shantae, Klonoa, Rayman, Arthur (Ghost and Goblins) or Jibanyan, instead of more supported characters, such as Tails, Knuckles, Waluigi, or Bomberman?

Seriously, Bomberman, or Rayman would've been a better addition then Joker/Ren. And a better assist trophy choice would've been Klonoa, Arthur (Ghost and Goblins), Frisk, or Jibanyan.
"Why not do this? What I suggest is clearly a better decision!"

Given how wild and unexpected developer choices on Smash Bros can get, you will only get frustrated more with the unexpected developer and character choices if you run with that line of thinking.

While I can't judge what Nintendo's intent is with the Challenger Packs based on just one character pack, assuming what Reggie said during The Game Awards is true, my assumption is that they are going to go with characters we wouldn't normally consider in the first place (overlooked characters (Erdrick for example) or popular characters that don't have larger support structures in the general Smash/Nintendo fanbase (Joker, 2B, Dante, etc.)).

If you are someone who wants characters like Bomberman and Rayman? Assuming my assumption is true, you are probably not part of the target audience for the Challenger Pack that is being aimed for. That said, I am basing this off the reveal of only one challenger pack and the upcoming reveals should give us the actual taste of what to expect from future reveals.

Now why would they pick those characters and not more supported characters?

If Nintendo wants to make back on the development costs for DLC, they would pick characters that are guaranteed to be popular (and sell well). Someone like Joker, a character from one of the best selling and most acclaimed JRPGs of this generation is one of those popular characters. Don't underestimate the power of relevancy, a character's popularity outside of Smash/Nintendo fanbases, and the Rule of Cool. Not to mention Atlus, a third-party with a long-time affiliation with Nintendo needs a character. Why not pick an Atlus character from a game that appeared on Nintendo platforms? Again, Joker is fresh in people's minds and the idea of him fighting in Smash is Rule Of Cool. Same line of thinking got Cloud in Smash 4 in the first place.

What do you think would be a better investment, set off a bigger internet fireworks show, and be cooler? Putting resources into Tails or putting resources into Joker?
 
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kaithehedgefox

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What do you think would be a better investment, set off a bigger internet fireworks show, and be cooler? Putting resources into Tails or putting resources into Joker?
They should've put resources into Tails, cause if we can have Richter and Ken, why not Tails?
 

osby

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They should've put resources into Tails, cause if we can have Richter and Ken, why not Tails?
Because SEGA is not Konami and you really should drop "why others and not me" mentality if you don't want to be keep being disappointed about things that has nothing with you.
 

Aeon_Shadow

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They should've put resources into Tails, cause if we can have Richter and Ken, why not Tails?
Because Richter and Ken are echos thus there is less resources/development time needed for them as opposed to Tails who would have been his own character. The only work needed for them are their asthetics and minor gameplay tweaks to distinguish them from their inspired fighter.

But if I have to be frank, I feel like we are going in circles. Bottom line is: Joker's a fighter, while Bomberman (or whoever else you're trying to suggest) isn't. I'm happy Joker is in, but not at the expense of Bomberman fans. It just wasn't Bomberman's time I guess. People have a lot of other characters they likely wanted in over other characters, but constantly crying about it and going "what if/they should've" won't change anything. What's done is done.
 

BZL8

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They should've put resources into Tails, cause if we can have Richter and Ken, why not Tails?
It’s one level when SmashBoards gets excited for a character, it’s takes another level of excitement when general gaming forum ResetEra briefly crashes due to a certain character joining.

Sometimes the choices that the developers of Smash make can baffle and confound people. Take the Smash Ballot back in the 3DS/Wii U for instance. People were anticipating characters who were the most requested to be added.

Cue the fireworks show when Bayonetta was first revealed; she was definitely not the most popular choice made by people. Corrin and Cloud also added to the storm, especially the former. The Geno and K Rool bases, two bases with similarly strong support, also did not take it well when their characters were relegated to Mii costumes.

At this point, just accept that you are on Mr. Sakurai’s Wild Ride, where the most unexpected of things can happen. Don’t set expectations or too much desire for certain characters to appear in game, otherwise the experience will leave you salty and bitter. If Sakurai adds a character you like, congrats, a character you wanted got in! Character speculation can get wild, and it’s all because its a wild ride that shows no signs of stopping.

Accept the confusion and chaos, for we are all bound and fated by Sakurai!
 
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Megadoomer

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Locking this topic for now, as it seems to be low-effort trolling.
 
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