What are your opinions on Miis post-MLG?

[wizrad]

MLG's rules gave Miis access to all of their alternate specials at the expense of having to only use one set per player, per Mii for the whole tournament. The highest placing Mii was Mew2King's 1122 Brawler, and he didn't do so hot. There were very few Miis overall, I only saw five the whole tournament.

Please tell if your opinion has changed and why.

 

[Wintropy]

I think it's a step in the right direction, but I don't think special sets should be restricted.

I can see where the TO is coming from, a Mii is its own character and therefore can't customise its own specials in the same way other characters can't, but I think it's missing the point to some extent. Mii sets should be treated as separate characters in the counterpick phase, in my opinion.

That said, I feel the same about customs full-stop, but I'm happy with where we're going right now.

 

[The Revolutionary Cafe]

I feel miis should have all their moves for players to make their own fighters as that's their sort of gimmick in every game to feature miis and limiting to 1111 is not only worse in terms of viability but just turns them into incredibly dull versions of whatever character type they take from. As for restrictions on one set I feel it doesn't matter either way because I can agree with either argument

 

[NegaNixx]

Before this discussion turns into hot doodoo as it tends to, I'd like to once again state that Viability is not grounds for legality. Any claim using viability is subjective and adds nothing.

As I've said before I'm fine with the ruleset, it lets people use the character they want to and we become more inclusive. The logistics are simple, I can understand making then keep one set during matches. I also support them switching sets, but that ease for the TO is important. It's one less thing to worry about on their part.

Nothing bad happened at MLG because of Miis, nothing especially good happened either, but the fact that Miis were allowed let more people come out. And that's what we want, to have our community grow, and feel welcomed.

 

[Rashyboy05]

My opinions on Miis are more or less unchanged. They aren't broken and they cause little to no logistical issues. If the reason they disallow Mii specials is because "Not everyone can train against Miis" then how come DLC characters get a free pass? Not everyone has money access to the DLC characters so those who can't get DLC characters has almost no way of training against them. The fact that there are still no Miis on Top 16 means that "Mii special are jank/dumb/broken" argument holds no water. Granted, Dapuffster did not attend the tournament for some unknown reason.

My thoughts in the rulesets themselves. I think the ruleset is pretty good as Miis are free to use their movesets. Although I still wish that Miis are allowed to be in all sizes (unless I misinterpreted the ruleset). Also, I think that the Mii player should only be allowed to use one moveset per Mii. I.E. You use 1132 Brawler, 3333 Swordfighter and 3122 Gunner so you aren't allowed to use 1122 Brawler, etc, etc. since imo you practice with what Mii set you like using. Which unless that was what the ruleset meant then ignore what I just said.

 

[Wintropy]

My thoughts in the rulesets themselves. I think the ruleset is pretty good as Miis are free to use their movesets. Although I still wish that Miis are allowed to be in all sizes (unless I misinterpreted the ruleset). Also, I think that the Mii player should only be allowed to use one moveset per Mii. I.E. You use 1132 Brawler, 3333 Swordfighter and 3122 Gunner so you aren't allowed to use 1122 Brawler, etc, etc. since imo you practice with what Mii set you like using. Which unless that was what the ruleset meant then ignore what I just said.

That's the rule, yeah. One set per Mii, but you can use any specials you want in that set.

 

[Raijinken]

Set swap -> Counterpick, and if logistics are really a threat to some event, I could see limiting a player to a finite number of total Miis. Limiting it to one per archetype was a bit overkill, but still acceptable compared to the alternative.

I still support standardized default size. Otherwise, not a bad ruling.

 

[WritersBlah]

Personally, given the context that the tournament was a no-customs tournament, I think the ruleset was actually really lenient and was the most ideal situation you could get. I mean, think about it this way: when custom moves are set to off, you rely a lot more on your ability to switch characters in a bad matchup rather than switching custom moves. In, say, a Kirby vs. Villager matchup, you can't suddenly switch out your down-B into meteor stone to counteract Villager's recovery. By the same token though, Captain Falcon doesn't become less viable because of his lack of good custom moves. The point I'm trying to make is that every character is restricted to one set. And though I think it would've been nice to give Palutena the same access the Miis have, restricting one set prevents giving Miis a matchup advantage other characters just wouldn't have access to. However, MLG's ruleset also allows the Miis to actually be viable, allowing a player to use their preferred set, which is usually a lot more viable than default weight + 1111. You essentially make Miis viable while simultaneously not giving them an unfair counterpicking advantage (allowing them to switch out their custom moves when no other character can do the same thing.) The only downside I see to the rulest would be in a case where somebody mains multiple Mii types, so they can't play as both Brawler and Gunner. However, these types of people are so few and far between, that I think it's pretty much a non-issue in all but the rarest of cases.

tl;dr, For tournaments running a non-customs ruleset, the treatment of Miis in this scenario was the way to do it.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Don't restrict them to one size. Granted, I understand that uploading them from a 3DS is a logistical issue, but it's small. It doesn't seem much different logistically from entering your name and setting up controls.

If they are going to be forced to stay on their defaults, then at least let them switch sets. Count it as a character switch in this case.

 

[san.]

I believe in making restrictions when problems arise. Putting limits on the likes of Mii Brawler in the early phases was plausible, but a very cautious way of going about it and didn't need to last this long/proliferate towards all Miis. I'm pretty sure that at this point, many other characters' metas have advanced to get a lot more advantage out of their attacks.

In other words, Mii Brawler isn't particularly special in the metagame compared to the likes of some other characters, even with varying sizes legal.

Other Miis don't really do anything and only hinders some of their dedicated mains for the most part.

 

[Raijinken]

Literally the only reason I support size lock is because it requires an external application to set them up. I'd be fine with pre-loading six (for color/appearance variety so a Brawler ditto isn't two identical Miis) Miis of each preferred size, but the more you add, the more time it takes. I prioritize moves since those can be fully customized regardless of anyone's pocket strats.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

MLG's rules were a step in the right direction. Ideally I would like to see 3DS Transfers allowed, or Custom Moves Project QR codes used to set up different heights on the station in advance, but this was progress. Basically I envision them working wholly as intended, or close to it; you bring along 'your character', 3DS transfer it in, and go to it.

Restrictions for logistical concerns should be clear and reasonable. I could see something like "If not 3DS transferring then you must pick a Mii from this pre-made pool, and maximum 2 sets per Mii type. Be quick about making them or we'll issue you a game-forfeit penalty, and upgrade it to a set or match forfeit if you continue to dally about and waste our time."

Still, MLG tried to do the right thing and I appreciate the gesture. Hopefully future events will embrace Mii freedom.

 

[Tinkerer]

It seems like a completely fine, workable ruleset that caused zero upset except the silly outrage beforehand that amounted to be about absolutely nothing.

If the moveset changes are the thing that bothers people most about the Miis, then sure, have a moveset restriction per person there. Most won't change it anyway, and it's a small compromise for having three characters allowed.

The size is trickier - changing sizes, even if restricted to be locked on a single player, means people essentially can't practice against Miis that well. A lot of the matchups for Miis do depend on the height and weight because it changes approach options, knockback and kill percents significantly. I'm not sure how to deal with this well - standard size seems to work fine.

 

[san.]

It seems like a completely fine, workable ruleset that caused zero upset except the silly outrage beforehand that amounted to be about absolutely nothing.

If the moveset changes are the thing that bothers people most about the Miis, then sure, have a moveset restriction per person there. Most won't change it anyway, and it's a small compromise for having three characters allowed.

The size is trickier - changing sizes, even if restricted to be locked on a single player, means people essentially can't practice against Miis that well. A lot of the matchups for Miis do depend on the height and weight because it changes approach options, knockback and kill percents significantly. I'm not sure how to deal with this well - standard size seems to work fine.

They barely change knockback or kill percents.

When you get smaller, weight is decreased, but air speed and fall speed increase, negating the change. Miis' knockback on their attacks aren't changed.

 

[DanGR]

The poll needs an option for "Both height/weight and specials shouldn't be restricted."

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Well, I agree DanGR, but absent that choice in the poll I voted for the thing that most bothered me (the size restriction).

 

[Djent]

If people aren't willing to go through the minimal logistical effort to let Miis use the options that the game makes available to them, I figure they should just be banned.

If we can't settle on the right choice, we can at least make a simple, elegant one.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Granted, Dapuffster did not attend the tournament for some unknown reason.

I couldn't go because I literally had a 1 week notice about the tournament allowing miis, I have no money to afford plane tickets, and I work two jobs.

 

[ぱみゅ]

No one should be allowed to make it out of the game, start the Mii Maker, and make a new Mii to use.
But being able to transfer from a 3DS should be enough.

I kiiiiiiiind of agree with making a rule on using only Guest Miis, it also helps EVERYONE practice against them, but at the same time they're not too horribly volatile to be impossible to adapt to once you get the gist of the matchup.
So, I don't complain but the whole matter it can be improved.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Really, practicing against the Miis isn't that huge a deal. In the time I've played against them, most of the combos and strategies I'd want to use work on a 25/0 Mii as well as they do on a 50-50. The physics changes, insofar as doing combos on them goes, aren't nearly as big as one might think.

 

[The Revolutionary Cafe]

Weight changes make Brawler pretty crazy tbh not only does he get more kill combos at early percents his increased air mobility makes it safer to go for hurricane kick on more stages

 

[19_]

It seems like many people here do want more in terms of mii legality but I honestly think it is important to not bite of more than we can chew. Chibo's mii rules did one very important thing and that is you are actually able to play the character. I believe this is the best you can get without miis looking unreasonable.

Regardless of the other side's logic, you have to know how far you can push a compromise. If the mlg rules can be the standard for miis I'm all for it.

 

[Raijinken]

It seems like many people here do want more in terms of mii legality but I honestly think it is important to not bite of more than we can chew. Chibo's mii rules did one very important thing and that is you are actually able to play the character. I believe this is the best you can get without miis looking unreasonable.

Regardless of the other side's logic, you have to know how far you can push a compromise. If the mlg rules can be the standard for miis I'm all for it.

Honestly, I'd be fully fine with that, as well. Though I still find the ability to consume time making one of each archetype but not being allowed to double- or triple-dip one at the expense of another to be a bit silly.

 

[Doomsday]

I feel like overall MLG rulesets were very nice. The only thing I would change is allowing for all different sizes.

 

[jespoke]

I would like if it allowed really small (minimum height/weight) as an option that isn't that hard to get training against. (I would say max size too if anyone actually played that)

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I think the ruleset was perfect. And I agree that they should be limited to default size only, both for logistical reasons, and as a compromise with the anti-Mii crowd, since default size Mii Brawler is nowhere near as scary as tiny Mii Brawler.

 

[TheJolteon]

Honestly only the brawler is viable so I don't see why we can't let them in any where else if players only need to practice against one of them. Sure the helicopter kick can kill but if they can't land it its not too hard.

 

[/|Sawtooth/|]

I would like if it allowed really small (minimum height/weight) as an option that isn't that hard to get training against. (I would say max size too if anyone actually played that)

Obviously, the MLG ruleset is by far the best in recent history in terms of Mii playability and viability, and I agree with the limitations on movesets per set for reasons already discussed by others in this thread. However, I also agree that a size expansion would be ideal.

Regarding the use of other sizes: that's what QR codes are for. We already solved this issue pre-EVO with the Custom Moveset Project. I can't imagine it would take longer than 5 minutes per Wii U to import the 3 Mii sizes established by the Custom Moves Project. It just seems like such a small drop in the bucket in terms of time consumption, especially given that multiple setups are going to be updated at a time.

I've been considering the following ruleset for Sm4sh@Mines (the Sm4sh weekly here at Colorado School of Mines): given that there's an hour-long block in between the doors opening and the tournament starting, we could project the QR codes for the three Mii Fighter sizes established by the Custom Moveset Project (since those have proven to be the most popular as far as I could tell) onto the wall since we're stationed in a classroom, and have all of the tournament setups bring up their gamepads to the projector screen, which I'm pretty confident is not far enough to cause the gamepad to disconnect (our venue is pretty small), and scan the three Miis. I imagine this could be easily upscaled by having multiple sheets of paper with the QR codes scattered around the venue. This would mean we have the default size (Guest Miis) and each character-specific size on each venue.

*EDIT: Or, even better, we could send the QR codes out in the Facebook announcement post and the campus-wide email we send out every week regarding the tournament and people could add the Miis before even showing up, allowing even more time for pre-tourney goings-on.

Plus, people could take home these QR codes and use them to practice the Mii Fighter matchups for different sizes of Miis.

We just did a poll with the people attending the weekly over the course of the last two weeklies, and most people who responded either were in favor of expanding Miis beyond the 1111D restriction that we currently have or didn't care either way, with most votes in favor of Mii expansion being pretty evenly split between the EVO and MLG standards. I'm going to run this by the TO and get his opinion on the matter before implementing it. (He kinda left me in charge of assessing public opiinion and making a judgement call on Miis)

(edited for typos and clarification)

 

[wizrad]

Added another option to the poll, please change your answer if it applies. Thanks for all your responses.

Edit: Someone said we shouldn't allow sizes because anti-Mii players find Smawler scary even though he's hard countered by good DI. This is worse than the argument that Mii specials should be legal because they make the characters viable.

 

[/|Sawtooth/|]

Edit: Someone said we shouldn't allow sizes because anti-Mii players find Smawler scary even though he's hard countered by good DI. This is worse than the argument that Mii specials should be legal because they make the characters viable.

It's stuff like this that proves that we need to allow Smawler. Either players will figure out a way to counter the character's dominant strategy by adjusting the way they handle the MU thanks to players learning more about Miis by actually playing against them or Daddy Sakurai will notice that Mii Brawler's air setups are OP and will give him the Luigi treatment: nerfing his overly strong attributes while keeping the playstyle intact and not ruining the character's viability.

 

[Big-Cat]

I understand the reasoning behind keeping it to one set for the entire tournament. The rest of the cast does not have access to this counterpicking option right out of the box with the exception of Palutena. Mii size, I believe, should be locked in with the default Miis for the sake of consistency. Again, the rest of the cast does not have access to size changes like Miis.

 

[19_]

I see that mii height and weight seem to be wanted by many people here, but I actually don't think it's a good idea.

I am against it not because it would be broken, but mainly because of how many sizes there are. I get that many of you guys like the idea that "the community" making more sizes but the truth is this does not work.

One of the reasons why customs at evo did not work was because only certain sets were allowed which were chosen by random people on the internet (Not trying to be rude but from an outsider view that is what it probably looked like). People were left in the dust when only 10 "optimal" sets were available per character (especially Japan). The LACK OF FREEDOM when it came to came to using custom moves is what hurt it and the impossibility to do so logistically.

You will not be able to do the same with sizes.
If you want sizes then you should have them all legal, but this a logistical waste of time for TO who are trying to run majors. Why multiple sizes when there are guest miis sitting there with no setup and no extra matchup johns required.

Top it off that miis already have negative stigma and it will show you are pushing your luck. If we start asking for more they won't hesitate to cut miis out of the scene.

Take the compromise of guest miis and run with it.

You have no idea how lucky you are.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I see that mii height and weight seem to be wanted by many people here, but I actually don't think it's a good idea.

I am against it not because it would be broken, but mainly because of how many sizes there are. I get that many of you guys like the idea that "the community" making more sizes but the truth is this does not work.

One of the reasons why customs at evo did not work was because only certain sets were allowed which were chosen by random people on the internet (Not trying to be rude but from an outsider view that is what it probably looked like). People were left in the dust when only 10 "optimal" sets were available per character (especially Japan). The LACK OF FREEDOM when it came to came to using custom moves is what hurt it and the impossibility to do so logistically.

You will not be able to do the same with sizes.
If you want sizes then you should have them all legal, but this a logistical waste of time for TO who are trying to run majors. Why multiple sizes when there are guest miis sitting there with no setup and no extra matchup johns required.

Top it off that miis already have negative stigma and it will show you are pushing your luck. If we start asking for more they won't hesitate to cut miis out of the scene.

Take the compromise of guest miis and run with it.

You have no idea how lucky you are.

Yet somehow the main player in top 8 at EVO to use customs well was in fact Japanese. In further fact, customs at EVO worked well; I was not aware of any actual problems they created. In further yet fact, there have been no logistical issues of substance caused by the legality of customs at any tournament ever to my knowledge, and I've been to plenty that allow 3ds transfer on the spot. It's not rational to try to "compromise" with people who just want to ban everything. It's better to just push for what's best and, as often as possible, call out people who raise imaginary issues to justify bans. If nothing else, it's awful and anti-competitive to suggest that players who main particular characters are somehow being a problem; Mii mains are just as legitimate as the mains of all other characters, and tournaments that ban Miis are as ridiculous as tournaments that ban Fire Emblem characters.

The optimal rules for Miis are the same as the optimal rules for characters. You can't use equipment but otherwise all customization options are fully available to players. Popular sets are pre-loaded on every console for player convenience. Unpopular sets may be uploaded from individual player 3ds units as requested. This also covers all odd Mii size preferences or a player's desire to use a Mii that looks really funny or has a quirky outfit or whatever. This poses no real logistical problems; the only real problems it has are imaginary ones like people who don't want popular sets also not being able to come up with a 3ds (we all know, realistically, the types of players who want something weird from a 3ds are the same players who are going to be ready and eager to supply it).

 

[/|Sawtooth/|]

You have no idea how lucky you are.

I'd like to think I have a good idea of that, and after further thinking we're probably just going to stick to the MLG ruleset for the time being at CSM, possibly transitioning into the EVO set if feedback is good, and see if the stigma will wear off with future mii-legal events. Still, glad to see freedom for move selection. Maybe our time will come.

 

[Gunla]

While in the most ideal scenario, I'd love to have something like X122S, but the format of MLG was very nice for myself at least, as someone who plays Brawler.

Miis weren't predominant nor did they make a splash beyond Top 32 with only a single player representing them. However, we did see Miis on stream and there was likely more in the event; these people may have not gone if the rules were different.

I am pleased that we have seen a tournament take a bold step into this issue by introducing something, that, as it turned out, would not actually be the tournament-dominating presence that people "thought" it would have. Helicopter Kick did not dominate nor was there excessive salt about it. It worked out and went fine.

Guest Miis with any set is a really awesome option and would be something I would be fine taking in the future. The option of locking them so you get 1 per set also eliminates the whole "custom counterpick" issue that some people bring up (be it you get one of any Mii to use per set), or just locking which specific set you use (IE: Using 2122 Brawler and 3121 Gunner would be possible, but not 2122 and 3122 Brawler).

At my local, we just run EVO Customs for Miis, and for the time being we're probably sticking that way.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Added another option to the poll, please change your answer if it applies. Thanks for all your responses.

Edit: Someone said we shouldn't allow sizes because anti-Mii players find Smawler scary even though he's hard countered by good DI. This is worse than the argument that Mii specials should be legal because they make the characters viable.

Look, anti-Mii people don't actually know how Mii works. We need to compromise somehow.

It's not rational to try to "compromise" with people who just want to ban everything.

You're living in a fantasy land if you think it's possible to not compromise at all. There are a hell of a lot more people who disagree with you than agree with you.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

However, we did see Miis on stream and there was likely more in the event; these people may have not gone if the rules were different.

I'll take this a step further, albeit onto a slight side topic; I wasn't able to attend, but part of why I tuned in to watch was the Miis were legal.

 

[wizrad]

Well, personally, I agree with everything they did except the restriction of movesets. I'd say either moveset changes are counterpicks or each Mii gets one moveset per set. Sure, I'd like sizes to be open, but I understand that it's a huge tournament.

 

[Tinkerer]

They barely change knockback or kill percents.

When you get smaller, weight is decreased, but air speed and fall speed increase, negating the change. Miis' knockback on their attacks aren't changed.

Right, gotcha, thanks for putting that straight. It still changes matchups and possible combos though - which I think is pretty fair to find a little problematic. It makes it hard to practice against such a character or learn the character unless you know very specifically which exact Mii the opponent is going to use. No other character has this problem.

 

[Speed Boost]

Logistically MLG's rulset made a lot sense. Using default sizes means no prep for the TO and limiting each competitor to one moveset means they aren't making new Miis in between each game. I like it as a global rulset that is easy for every TO to understand and execute. FREE Mii FIGHTERS!