What are the tiers like in Brawl?

[C.SDK]

I don't really play Brawl but I'm interested in playing it. What are the tiers like in Brawl? And by that, I mean is Meta Knight and the other high tier characters an unstoppable force? In Melee, it's well known that Falco, Fox, Sheik, etc are the top dogs but the lower tiers can still compete. Have you heard of Axe? He's a Pikachu player and Pikachu is ranked 12th and his Pikachu is pretty darn amazing and beats a lot of the high tiers.

Is Brawl kind of the same? Can the lower tiers compete? Are they viable? Thanks for reading!

 

[TheAwesomefroggy]

Some people think Meta Knight's so good he should be banned. I don't.

From what i've seen, no they're not viable. Personally, i'd say the characters that can compete can go from Meta Knight - Marth (7th) or Pikachu (8th). That's not counting people who've completely mastered their characters.

 

[MR. K]

long story short; no the low tiers aren't really viable at alll in brawl.

and MK is op'd enough imo to warrant a ban, but thats a topic for another day(they did ban him officially at one point, now of course since the URC is gone, the ban is pretty much optional again for the To's to decide, one good thing about it is it showed folks its not taboo anymore to ban him, and john#'s is collecting lots of data on both MK banned and MK legal tournaments now to show how drastically different the results are.)

Realistically there are roughly 7-8 characters that are viable, take MK out of the picture and you could probably raise that a bit more.


Still though Characters like ganon, zelda(unless its doubles she can be a pretty good team mate in doubles ) C.falcon, link and most other low tiers, really don't stand much of a chance in brawl against the high/top tiers.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Brawl's viability is basically the same as Melee's at top level, but Brawl probably has better viability for lower level tournaments.

 

[Life]

IMO, tiers are basically

threatening at nationals
threatening at regionals
threatening at locals

By threatening I mean could potentially place first.

 

[Gea]

Brawl's viability is basically the same as Melee's at top level, but Brawl probably has better viability for lower level tournaments.

I don't want to make this about Brawl vs Melee but I pretty much disagree. Though I guess it would be hard to prove. Brawl did run way more low tier side events than Melee ever did. At least from what I can see.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Top level Brawl has MK, ICs, Marth, Pika, Falco, Snake, Olimar, Diddy and Wario (give or take)

Top level Melee has Fox, Falco, Puff, Marth, Sheik, Peach, Falcon and ICs.

Go to a Brawl local and you'll see characters as low as DK consistently winning, and several mid tiers in the results. Melee tourneys still have essentially the same characters with 1 or 2 mid tiers.

 

[Vkrm]

In melee, the top tiers are more fun. I think that accounts for the popularity. Pretty sure melee has more viable characters. Strong bad, Axe and Kage do pretty good.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

They are outliers, though.

We've got TKD, Salem, Will, etc... in Brawl too.

 

[Vkrm]

Legit curiosity right here, how many low tier mains play their bad MU's with out going to a secondary in brawl? I know for a fact Lucas vs Marth is borderline impossible. I don't really think everybody has a pocket mk, I doubt it's that bad. I just wonder, in a game without tech skill what would stop somebody from having an alternate for all their hard matchups.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I can't speak for other people, but I'm a low tier main with secondaries (I pull out G&W or MK for the MK match-up a lot, and I'll sometimes swap in difficult match-ups if I'm uncomfortable).

It's definitely a viable strategy.

 

[himemiya]

Brawl metaknight dittos/snake dittos/falco going against one of them and diddy on a occasion. Melee falco dittos with a bunch of fox vs. falco/falcon matches and sheilk, peach, and marth on the side.

 

[GangsterPuff]

Only reason MK was banned was because of his easily spammable moves, and incredible recovery, but as a secondaries MK player, I just find spamming to be lame, and some times I didn't even touch the B button.

 

[G-Dub]

If by "smammable" and "dont touch the b button" you mean tornado, thats not why he is so good.
Its mks ability to stay incredibly safe in any given situation that makes mk "op". Dtilt, Ftilt, Fair, and UpB make getting in on mk very difficult and many of his moves are safe on block so he can continuously put on pressure while the opponent must avoid and wait for a mistake. Even when the opportunity arises than mk can be punished, his frame data is so solid the punishment will be soft and rely on lightning fast reflexes to get.
Dair camping is nearly impossible to challenge and absolutely no character has a chance to pressure him off-stage (except himself).

 

[-LzR-]

Actually I think MK is so good because of his ability to cover so many options at the same time. He can cover almost anything in any gives situation, but this requires a great deal of knowledge and technical ability to pull off well. Of course at like low level you can just "spam" to win, but I don't think using an option that beats the opponent over and over is "spamming", but instead choosing the option that wins and not changing it because the opponent doesn't adapt so you can just keep doing it.
Oh and Brawl is not that badly balanced, you won't win a national with a not so great character, but you can do well even with average characters like Peach and DK assuming you are good and cover their bad MUs with certain secondaries.

 

[GangsterPuff]

but since there's so many MKs in the tournaments, almost any pros knows how to deal with MKs.

 

[-LzR-]

Yes, but that doesn't make MK any better or worse, it just means you can no longer pocket MK and dsmash nado your way to victory.

 

[Luco]

Legit curiosity right here, how many low tier mains play their bad MU's with out going to a secondary in brawl? I know for a fact Lucas vs Marth is borderline impossible. I don't really think everybody has a pocket mk, I doubt it's that bad. I just wonder, in a game without tech skill what would stop somebody from having an alternate for all their hard matchups.

Lucas/Ness vs. Marth isn't an impossible MU, though it's silly yes... impossible MUs are like, DK vs. DDD, Ganon vs. MK, things like that. Lucas vs. marth is a -3 whereas the aforementioned MUs are -4's for the losing character. -3 MUs have been beaten before in some notable examples (Ocean vs. M2K: the ROB - MK MU is generally considered a -3)

Anyway, I think after Apex we can increase that number to at least around 10, which isn't too bad IMO. I'd say the tiers are like, if you can beat someone above your tier, it's pretty nice, whereas if you can beat someone way above you (assuming you're at a good level), you're pretty fantastic.

IMO the whole tier thing between Brawl and Melee is closer than everyone says. Not exactly the same - i'm inclined to believe MK is somewhat more dominating but he's not unbeatable and there are notable examples of such.

 

[-LzR-]

Even though Marth destroys EB kids pretty badly with a pretty sword and awesome grab releases, you still get ***** if you just pick a random pocket Marth against them, so even a really really bad MU doesn't mean you should pick the character who destroys the other one if you aren't good with them.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Problem with MetaKnight: he can combo. All other characters really can't. Or not effectively enough.

 

[-LzR-]

Wait what game have you been playing?

 

[GangsterPuff]

Problem with MetaKnight: he can combo. All other characters really can't. Or not effectively enough.

Ok, they was definitely biased, I'm a Kirby player and Kirby's forward grabs almost always leads into a combo.

 

[Vale]

Anyway, I think after Apex we can increase that number to at least around 10, which isn't too bad IMO. I'd say the tiers are like, if you can beat someone above your tier, it's pretty nice, whereas if you can beat someone way above you (assuming you're at a good level), you're pretty fantastic.

I think the individual matchup is more important than the general placement on the tier list.

 

[G-Dub]

Problem with MetaKnight: he can combo. All other characters really can't. Or not effectively enough.

Lol im pretty sure this is a troll... This is coming from DIDDY KONG

 

[Luco]

I think the individual matchup is more important than the general placement on the tier list.

Actually that's a good point and I concede... it's just my point is the difference between individual tiers isn't too huge (mid and borderline as an example), but the difference between mid and top is rather large.

But yes, it's probably better to look at it in terms of matchups if you can.

Problem with MetaKnight: he can combo. All other characters really can't. Or not effectively enough.

Dude that's not the case at all.

Look at a character like Luigi: He has some legit scary combos, his issue is that he can't get in close enough to use them.

Anyway, the issue with MK is many reasons: Priority, ability to be safe on so many moves it's not funny, pressuring ability, prowess offstage and heaps more.

 

[Illuvial]

If you look at official MU charts on the various character boards, you will see that MK is either that characters worst MU or ties for worst MU with most high tier characters or lower (with few exceptions). You ban MK and suddenly characters that had a very hard MU against him (Pit, ROB, Peach, Kirby, Toon Link etc.) become viable. Banning MK will almost double the amount of viable characters (or at least give certain characters a MUCH better chance) in tournaments.

I would rather have a bigger list of viable or ALMOST completely viable characters rather than appeal to the players who use an overpowered powerhouse.

 

[Luco]

If you look at official MU charts on the various character boards, you will see that MK is either that characters worst MU or ties for worst MU with most high tier characters or lower (with few exceptions). You ban MK and suddenly characters that had a very hard MU against MK and suddenly these characters (Pit, ROB, Peach, Kirby, Toon Link etc.) suddenly become viable. Banning MK will almost double the amount of viable characters (or at least give certain characters a MUCH better chance) in tournaments.

I would rather have a bigger list of viable or ALMOST completely viable characters rather than appeal to the players who use an overpowered powerhouse.

I noticed that. I was so glad to see he wasn't at the top of my characters' hate list when I saw them for the first time.

Lemme check the popularity thingy for a sec....

 

[Danny of AD 1]

mk just got bumped down on my tier list to 34th/37th

 

[Trieste SP]

Ho boy... Brawl was rough for my main. High tiered characters can win against a good Metaknight but for me it the MU was unwinnable. Don't get me started on Ice Climbers....