What are the standard tournament rules for a new Smash game?

[Johnknight1]

Here:

Mario 3d Land Stage (3DS):
Scrolling stage
Hazards
Shifting terrain
Or:

Wily's Castle (Wii U)
With it's most glaring problem being the Yellow Devil.

Don't forget the Pilotwings/Wuhu Island stage, which appears to have planes flipping upside down, as well as potential camping on one plan when there are 2 out at once.

As for the former stage, it is most likely banned (because scrolling stages = early chain grab kills, which gives way too much power to certain characters, almost all of whom are high tier characters).The spikes we saw in trailers destroying platforms doesn't help either.

As for the the latter... it depends on the Yellow Devil, and how it functions. If the Yellow Devil is a background character, does minimal damage with minimal movement (basically he just transforms in the middle of the stage), or the Yellow Devil is an assist trophy (that looks ridiculously unlikely at this point), the stage can still be legal.

Heck, if the Yellow Devil essentially does nothing, this stage is probably going to be a neutral stage.

This stage is also another reason why stage hazards should be an unlockable option! DANG IT SAKURAI! COPY THE ONE THING PLAYSTATION ALL-STARS DID RIGHT FOR THE FAN'S SAKE!!!!

(but nope, you gotta have that, you had to add freaking tripping in Brawl, you had to make awful Melee stages like Brinstar Depths and Venom, and you had to make Metal Caverns, the How to Play Stage, Battlefield, and FD unplayable in the multiplayer in Smash 64; Sakurai goes full ****** at least once per smash game it seems).

Edit: 14,000 posts!

 

[Substitution]

To be fair, there's haven't been evidence to say Wuhu Island is bad we only have a couple pictures and only a few seconds of video.
Plus I'm not saying banned stages are awful and Sakurai is awful for making them, heck some of my favorite stages is Big Blue and 75m (mostly the idea, though the execution could've been better.).

 

[Substitution]

Holy double post Batman!

 

[ryuu seika]

75M was terrible. Big Blue, however, without its camera problems and lag, could have been a good counterpick. Or maybe I'm just biased cause Kirby rocks there.

 

[Johnknight1]

75M was terrible. Big Blue, however, without its camera problems and lag, could have been a good counterpick. Or maybe I'm just biased cause Kirby rocks there.

No, it was not a competitive stage. You'd fall off too easily, camping and stalling was prominent problems there, and just in general the design was wonky.

If it was like you were on the Falcon Flyer the whole time, it wouldn't have been so bad.

Also, the lag was horrendous there. It wasn't even fully fixed in Brawl. What the heck Sakurai=??? Why did that stage return in Brawl over freaking Mute City, which damn near everyone preferred=???

(the same is true of Yohsi's Island Melee over Yoshi's Story, and Green Greens over Fountain of Dreams; no one plays either of those stages)

 

[Substitution]

While I haven't played Brawl in a while, I strictly remember seeing no lag on Big Blue.

 

[ryuu seika]

Dreamland 64 was better than both FoD and Green Greens but I can see your point on Mute City, that was a great stage and though, personally, I found Big Blue just as fun, it was definitely the more competitive. Yoshi's Story Melee always annoyed me but even that I wasn't happy to see go because Brawl brought nothing decent to replace it.

As for Willy's Castle, even without the Yellow Devil, it has a non-symmetrical platform setup which might eventually lead to a placement preference and thus cause minor issues. I wouldn't say they'd warrant banning but atleast some caution in calling it a starter until it became well known and the effects of this asymmetry could be seen. That said, I don't recall any issues in this vein with Smashville.

 

[Substitution]

Dreamland 64 was better than both FoD and Green Greens but I can see your point on Mute City, that was a great stage and though, personally, I found Big Blue just as fun, it was definitely the more competitive. Yoshi's Story Melee always annoyed me but even that I wasn't happy to see go because Brawl brought nothing decent to replace it.

As for Willy's Castle, even without the Yellow Devil, it has a non-symmetrical platform setup which might eventually lead to a placement preference and thus cause minor issues. I wouldn't say they'd warrant banning but atleast some caution in calling it a starter until it became well known and the effects of this asymmetry could be seen. That said, I don't recall any issues in this vein with Smashville.

I guess it's because Smashville's platform is more predictable.

 

[RelaxAlax]

I was late on commenting in this thread. But I've arrived now lol.

I'm on the same page as JohnKnight. I've been to 1 Brawl tournament thus far, and other than that I play competitively with my friend (Same-ish skill level, but it doesn't help I play Lucas and he plays DK, chances are I lose due to the MU). I think that we need to give the game a month or so of play time before we really count stages out. Even the obvious ones we should ban.

Although I say this, I'm sure it will end up like Brawl with the amount of tourney friendly stages. It's inevitably that early tournaments will allow weirder stages, but hey, we'll learn from experience that way. We already have Smashville and Battlefield that I feel are almost more than likely to be some of your top stages, if they aren't changed drastically.

In the case of Wily's Fortress, I think we'll have to wait it out to see just what the Yellow Devils role is. As for New Super Mario Bros, I think it's safe to say it'll be banned.

(Just as an aside, what if Sakurai gave us no item switch?! That would cause riots)
(Double aside, how will streaming of 3DS tourneys playout? I'm not big on 3DS capture cards but from what I heard they can be a distraction to gameplay. How will officials keep watch of what happens? Unless there is a 3DS capture card i'm unaware of that isn't such an obtrusion)

We should get the stage list and go through it imo. Not to ban them now but to put some stages on watch.

 

[Substitution]

I was late on commenting in this thread. But I've arrived now lol.

I'm on the same page as JohnKnight. I've been to 1 Brawl tournament thus far, and other than that I play competitively with my friend (Same-ish skill level, but it doesn't help I play Lucas and he plays DK, chances are I lose due to the MU). I think that we need to give the game a month or so of play time before we really count stages out. Even the obvious ones we should ban.

Although I say this, I'm sure it will end up like Brawl with the amount of tourney friendly stages. It's inevitably that early tournaments will allow weirder stages, but hey, we'll learn from experience that way. We already have Smashville and Battlefield that I feel are almost more than likely to be some of your top stages, if they aren't changed drastically.

In the case of Wily's Fortress, I think we'll have to wait it out to see just what the Yellow Devils role is. As for New Super Mario Bros, I think it's safe to say it'll be banned.

(Just as an aside, what if Sakurai gave us no item switch?! That would cause riots)
(Double aside, how will streaming of 3DS tourneys playout? I'm not big on 3DS capture cards but from what I heard they can be a distraction to gameplay. How will officials keep watch of what happens? Unless there is a 3DS capture card i'm unaware of that isn't such an obtrusion)

We should get the stage list and go through it imo. Not to ban them now but to put some stages on watch.

There is apparently, don't know were to get one though.

 

[ryuu seika]

Yes, a watch list would be a good idea but make sure the watched stages get a good deal of attention so their pros and cons can be highlighted for an early verdict.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Okay, I'll keep this as neutral as possible since this is the first list to my knowledge. Also we should consider moving to Hugs' thread or that thread migrating here.

Both games
Battlefield

• I think it's safe to say this will be universally legal. Any objections will make me a bit perplexed at the community.

3DS
Arena Ferox

• Not enough information; Seems pretty neutral, but there were statues presented that may add something to the gameplay. Should be watched

Gerudo Valley

• Walk off stage but does have a pit; I believe the bridge breaks and opens a pit. Given tradition and experience, this would be banned

Rainbow Road

• Not enough information, seems pretty neutral as of right now but time may say otherwise. I imagine Waluigi coming in on a kart and ****ing up the joint

Spirit Train

• It is a moving stages (Big Blue, although we don't know if touching the tracks will kill you) and has hazards (bomb train). I'm going to say it will be banned.

Animal Crossing: New Leaf stage

• Not enough information; hopefully it is the Smashville of the 3DS. The water surrounding may deter from this theory though.

Find Mii stage

• Not enough information; possible stage hazard

Kid Icarus: Uprising stage

• Not enough information; from the one image it seems to have many platforms ascending. It's unknown if the reset bomb effects gameplay but it seems to change the stages aesthetics.

Nintendogs Stage

• Seems to be a walk-off stage; Unknown if Nintendog plays a role in gameplay

Super Mario 3D Land Stage

• Scrolling; Many Stage Hazards; I think this one is a surefire ban.

Wii U
Dr. Wily's Castle

• Pretty neutral. A few floating platforms, and pits on both sides. Yellow Devil may be the only hazard, and even his severity is questionable (See picture with Kirby phasing through him). I'd say it would be wise to keep watch on it.

Garden of Hope

• Not enough information; It appears to be a walk-off stage. It is shown to have a pit so it may have a fighting chance.

Mario Galaxy

• Appears to be walk-off, but the edges have never been seen. No hazards present but does have planetational gravity

Pyrosphere

• Netural stages, somewhat large. No hazards presented and appears to be a safe pick for tournaments. We don't know if the lava plays a role in it or if Ridley is infused with the stage (hopefully not :])

Skyloft

• Delfino-style level. Seems tournament safe as of now.

Windy Hill Zone

• Hinted to be a walkoff stage; appears to have planetational gravity. I'd steer this one towards a ban but it may have unknown redeeming factors

Wuhu Island

• A plane type level. Does not seem to have hazards. The planes ongoing change of tilt has not yet shown any gameplay disadvantages

Animal Crossing: City Folk stage

• Smashville; should remain legal unless further evidence proves otherwise. This does show us stages may vary in platform placement and background. If platforms do change each time the stage is loaded, this could cause issues in strategy of stage selection.

Wii Fit stage

• I'm still perplexed to as whether this is a walkoff stage or if it has pits. The gray beyond seems to suggest it has pits. No hazards have been presented and it appears to be pretty neutral. For now, I'd say it's legal.

Boxing Ring stage

• It has been recently shown that beyond the arena there aren't any pits. This is still up for debate so this will need to be watched. However, the borders on the arena do invite infinites or easy damage racking (Lucas Down-tilt) so for now, it will be watched.

Again, feel free to move this to Hugs' thread. This is to invite discussion for the state of some of the stages that appear iffy. I only made this list to invite criticism, information or ideas. None of this is final either, as we don't even have the game yet, I was just looking for patterns while using the logic from the past competitive smash community.

 

[JediLink]

I don't think we really need to worry about the 3DS stages, unless someone's planning on having 3DS tournaments.
EDIT: Which I suppose could happen. Are handheld fighting game tournaments a thing?

 

[Hong]

I don't think we really need to worry about the 3DS stages, unless someone's planning on having 3DS tournaments.
EDIT: Which I suppose could happen. Are handheld fighting game tournaments a thing?

i would be shocked.

I imagine it being something we play during the long road trips or doing some friendlies while we wait if there are no free systems. No matter how well they are designed, the only portable FGC tournaments I can think of have been online, but nothing serious.

I would like to think the spectator experience is an important element of growing and maintaining the scene. Certainly not necessary, but merits consideration. Even if we get video adapters for the 3DS (expensive), it is not going to work well if the experience has more focus on the active user, such as camera bias. I know Pokemon is doing well for itself, though it is different when the game is a turn-based affair and the visuals are largely inconsequential.

 

[RelaxAlax]

I imagine the community for 3DS will be smaller

But mark my words when I say it probably will play like Melee and everyone will put out the effort to port it to PC just to play it xD

Nah, that's just a scary reality that could happen.

 

[ryuu seika]

I will be getting the 3DS version as I do not see myself getting a Wii U any time soon. I hope that this won't impede my ability to compete too much.

 

[Morbi]

No items, Fox only, Final Destination.

These are the official rules, you may have to ask the TO if Falco is banned or not, it really depends on the individual.

 

[KCCHIEFS27]

This can actually be a touchy subject for some. All of the above posters are correct in that those rulesets are what have been used in the past for the tournament scene, and probably rightly so.

However, I, as some others, believe that a tournament can be legitimately accomplished with things like items on. There was a thread around here some time ago that wanted to achieve the notion that we shouldn't immediately create rulesets before the game came out, or even in the first few months of its release. The reasoning is there can be some very rich, competitive gameplay on stages that get banned initially and people never play, etc.

IMO, its best to keep an open mind on the types of stages, and other rulesets before trying to implement a "standard". Just my 2 cents.

Get a load of this guy

 

[ryuu seika]

I still think that a "walkoff" stage without the ability to camp at the edges or a slow scrolling scroller could be viable if made right and I sincerely hope that the galaxy stage is infact fully spherical.

EDIT: Oh wait, Rainbow Cruise scrolls so we've seen a playable scroller already.

 

[lordvaati]

^we had 2 at one point with Poke Floats until Fox buggered it up.
IMO RC is a pure legit CP in Melee but not so in brawl due to the properties of the Donuts being changed and DeDede exploiting the boat.

My ruleset for a prototype Smash 4? probably this:

1st test:

-basic 3/4 stock, 10 minute match
-items off
-all stages legal(except obvious offenders like Hyrule Temple, WarioWare etc.) as method of test


2nd test:
-basic 3/4 stock, 10 minute match
-same as above, but items on(except obvous offenders like Bomb-Ombs, Pokeballs, etc.)

after runs of both testing systems and unlocking the rest of the cast, we would then craft a general default system of what should be legal and what the stock/time amount should be.

problem solved.

 

[ryuu seika]

^we had 2 at one point with Poke Floats until Fox buggered it up.

Back when I acquired the legal stage list for training purposes Poke Floats was only legal in one small part of Canada, along with Corneria (lol) and Mute City. I threw them all into my random select setup and I definitely feel I became a better, more adaptable player for it. I loved Poke Floats especially, how did fox manage to screw it up?

 

[lordvaati]

Fox players became skilled enough to know the shifting of the stage and made t so they could get a kill and run off shooting lasers until time.

I don't think we really need to worry about the 3DS stages, unless someone's planning on having 3DS tournaments.
EDIT: Which I suppose could happen. Are handheld fighting game tournaments a thing?

Dissidia(012) is the only major one that comes to mind, but it was hampered since I think it was local only IIRC, which this game doesn't have a problem of(so far.). PASBR had a cross-play thing to, but I don't think it was used that much.

so yeah, just those 2.

 

[ryuu seika]

Ok, yeah, that seems cheap, what with the other fast characters not having the safe aerial mobility to cope.
Having to stay ahead the entire game to avoid infinite laser camping, urgh!

Alternative proposal: Ban fox.