What are the standard tournament rules for a new Smash game?

[ZelDan]

How many high level players actually care about Smash 4 I wonder? The only one I know of is M2K. I could see the the hype from these players being substancially low for Smash 4 compared to what it was like during pre-brawl days, after how controversial Brawl was.

This likely explains why there isn't as many high-level competitive players around to some extent. Maybe if more info that pertains to actual gameplay gets released, maybe that will get some more interest from competitive players here? And perhaps at that time we will see boards dedicated to competitive discussion (since there would actually be more things to discuss outside of if X character will theoretically be good or not).

 

[Johnknight1]

Hai there make that 4, everyone always forgets about me. Socal ftw. (Though I lurked in pre-brawl for obvious reasons.... *shudders* )

Pre-Brawl in most ways was worse, but not competitively.

In competitive discussions the hopeful top Brawl competitive players listened to the experienced Melee competitive players for advice instead of talking over them. I know I did.

Granted, everyone posts here to insert their opinions, and it's better when they do in an intelligent discussion (as well as admit what they don't know) but man, random people coming out of nowhere claiming they know more than competitive players (like in that HugS started thread) is ridiculous.

Also, SoCal, you're going down! WE HAVE THE FUTURE!!! WE HAVE KEVIN, AKA PEWPEWU!!!!

But I agree we need some competitive minded mods when the game comes closer to release.

Oh trust me, we'll get some, way one or another. Hopefully the Melee BRoom and Brawl BRoom can help with that, especially with finding top level Smash Wii U and 3DS players (eventually) to become mods, specifically for the character boards.

Also, facebook happened, that's why there isn't many around here anymore.

Is there a SoCal Melee and/or Brawl Facebook group as well=???

 

[XStarWarriorX]

Pre-Brawl in most ways was worse, but not competitively.

In competitive discussions the hopeful top Brawl competitive players listened to the experienced Melee competitive players for advice instead of talking over them. I know I did.

Granted, everyone posts here to insert their opinions, but man, random people coming out of nowhere claiming they know more than competitive players (like in that HugS started thread) is ridiculous.

Also, SoCal, you're going down! WE HAVE THE FUTURE!!! WE HAVE KEVIN, AKA PEWPEWU!!!!
But I agree we need some competitive minded mods when the game comes closer to release.

Is there a SoCal Melee and/or Brawl Facebook group as well=???

I agree, which is why i'm glad you bumped his thread back to life.

Pfft PPU, he ain't got nothing on mango (when he actually tries to win.... lol) but he does have an awesome marth, i'll give him that, bring it on NorCal.

And yes I believe there was, at least there's one for LA tourney's anyway. But yeah most moved on to facebook. I didn't cause I like smashboards and I dislike facebook... but w/e.

 

[Johnknight1]

How many high level players actually care about Smash 4 I wonder? The only one I know of is M2K. I could see the the hype from these players being substancially low for Smash 4 compared to what it was like during pre-brawl days, after how controversial Brawl was.

HugS, Mew2King, the smash twins (t0mmy and t1mmy [they're big name TO's]), and especially Armada have shown interest.

Armada actually stated he might quit Melee for Smash WiiU.

On top of that I think Mew2King hinted he's helped with development of Smash WiiU and 3DS (I don't but it), and Armada had said he'd love to do that.

Oh, and every Smash fan would love to see a great new entry (or 2) in the series that has incredible, deep, and enjoyable competitive play. There's no way that would be bad for the community. Actually, it would probably help make 64, Melee, Brawl, and all the mods of those games more popular at a competitive level.

The problem I find is that many competitive Melee and Brawl players have been chased off the boards. The mob mentality is to scare away opposing opinions, which is why we are where we are. Those of us who have been around Smash 4 discussion from early on know who these culprits are, and who their followers are (these quasi-competitive players).

I agree, which is why i'm glad you bumped his thread back to life.

I'm going to stop posting here now and start posting there. This thread is a mess, and had no real purpose.

That thread didn't start a mess, was a great start (although I don't 100% agree with HugS he has great reasons behind things), and it had high level players and TO's of previous Smash games posting there, vs here where I might be the best Melee player posting (and I'm not that good).

And yes I believe there was, at least there's one for LA tourney's anyway. But yeah most moved on to facebook. I didn't cause I like smashboards and I dislike facebook... but w/e.

I only use Facebook for Smash. I hate that site so much. It's MySpace 2.0. There's no way around it, as well as the NSA's best friend.

 

[salaboB]

I do think people with experience with this type of thing should be the ones that have a say on what goes on. Hell, even players who know at least the basics of competitive play or at least know common sense should be the ones that have a say on things. Not people that clearly don't have the experience, nor do they have the intention to do so.

The "players who know what they're doing" are the ones saying things like "bobombs falling onto me charging an attack" (Bobombs wouldn't be enabled, they're too volatile) and comparing Melee items to Brawl items -- Melee could have exploding capsules spawn in front of you, Brawl could not.

The one big tournament with Brawl items, the item set selected was a joke for balance. Terrible examples all around, well chosen items have never been effectively tested in serious play.

Let's be honest: Good competitive players will almost always recommend things stay the same as they always have, because that's the environment they're good in. They will be uncomfortable with change and will tend to fight it tooth and nail, whether reasonable or not.

 

[lobotheduck21]

can't items have an infinite throwing range?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Terrible examples all around, well chosen items have never been effectively tested in serious play.

That's a pretty bold statement to make.

Ever heard of side tournaments?

They have been tested and almost all items that actually do anything (smoke ball doesn't really) skew results drastically.

Let's be honest: Good competitive players will almost always recommend things stay the same as they always have, because that's the environment they're good in. They will be uncomfortable with change and will tend to fight it tooth and nail, whether reasonable or not.

Do you realize how many competitive players want L-canceling removed entirely?

 

[salaboB]

They have been tested and almost all items that actually do anything (smoke ball doesn't really) skew results drastically.

This statement directly contradicts item standard play tournament evidence.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

This statement directly contradicts item standard play tournament evidence.

Go back and find the part where I talked about standard play tournament evidence.

I'll save you the trouble. I didn't.

They have been tested in SIDE TOURNAMENTS.

Another thing entirely. Often undocumented as they're mainly there for fun.

 

[salaboB]

Go back and find the part where I talked about standard play tournament evidence.

I'll save you the trouble. I didn't.


They have been tested in SIDE TOURNAMENTS.

Another thing entirely. Often undocumented as they're mainly there for fun.

So you're saying that my original statement about no effective tournament testing of items stands?

 

[ndayday]

Let's be honest: Good competitive players will almost always recommend things stay the same as they always have, because that's the environment they're good in. They will be uncomfortable with change and will tend to fight it tooth and nail, whether reasonable or not.

Because that's the way that works best and no one wants to play a ruleset that has items for months just to give them a chance.

 

[salaboB]

Because that's the way that works best

You really can't prove this.

Why?

Because it's never been seriously tried with intelligent rules.

 

[ndayday]

I'm not talking about for the collective casual and competitive community. I'm saying that competitive players don't want to change because that is the way, after holding major tournaments with items, that works best for them. You're probably right that there hasn't been super extensive testing of items, but I would assume that going through that testing is not worth having competitive items when it's already sufficiently competitive by just removing them altogether.

 

[Muster]

You really can't prove this.

Why?

Because it's never been seriously tried with intelligent rules.

Even if it was tried and true, adding items would (most likely) be a big impact on the metagame and how smash is played in general. People don't like change, especially a massive change like that. I'd say that there should be separate tournaments with and without items for a few months after the game is released, and if items are bothersome again, then back to the timeout corner they go. It will likely end up like this if they aren't banned outright, but you never know.

 

[salaboB]

I'm not talking about for the collective casual and competitive community. I'm saying that competitive players don't want to change because that is the way, after holding major tournaments with items, that works best for them. You're probably right that there hasn't been super extensive testing of items, but I would assume that going through that testing is not worth having competitive items when it's already sufficiently competitive by just removing them altogether.

Yeah, that's fair. I guess I'm just not one to stop at "sufficient" if "better" is a possible option.

 

[Delta-cod]

If I'm so wrong, then please, point it out.

While I'm by no means a high level competitive player (I'm a mini-mini-mini-mini-mini-mini-mini-mini boss in NorCal at Melee, lol), and I'm by no means an items expert, I have tried items out in friendlies at high levels against top players in Melee (and a few times in Brawl back when I played it), and I do have a wealth of knowledge at using them.

I'm sure I overrate a character or two or underrate a character or two with items, but I guarantee you I know more about item play than everyone who is promoting item play in this tournament.

After all, I doubt any of them have faced current or form top 10 all-world players in items matches in any of the 3 games (let alone all 3), or even current or former top 10 all-world players, period.

But to say it caused you to be physically ill is disrespectful, rude, and uncalled for. All your post did what degrade my opinion without any evidence.

The fact you got 2 likes shows how many butthurt people we have here. Apparently having a different opinion is bad.

There's a lot to go through, and I won't touch Melee because Melee item control is a lot different (largely due to the way items are picked up/caught). It was late and I was lazy. And you make a lot of exaggerations that don't do you any good.

I'd have been more reluctant to make a snarky post had you not been snarky towards everyone else in the first place. Your posts made it seem as though you believed the tournament ruleset should cater to YOU specifically, not even the group of people who think like you, but YOU, which is ridiculous, and rude to everyone else. You also called practically everyone out with "Because unlike most of the people here, I'm an actually competitive player who enters tournaments." which is no way to be welcoming to the new players who MIGHT EVEN BE INTERESTED IN COMPETING. Calling for a separate board/whatever for competitives is also no good. Although Smash 4 will likely be getting a larger forum area once the game is actually released, with different areas for those purposes.

I dunno what the norm is around here, but the norm in general is to rag on players who are interested in advocating for items/not-flat-plat-stages. I also recall seeing a post mentioning that "if something is shown to no longer need a ban, it will be unbanned", which is a huge lie, and this has been demonstrated throughout smash's lifespan.

Anyways, going into specifics will take a huge amount of time and you're better off reading Jack's ISP thread in the Brawl Competitive Forum. I'll just say that you notion of items becoming more broken over time is just wrong. So many of Brawl's items are only good for one time use projectiles, lol.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So you're saying that my original statement about no effective tournament testing of items stands?

No. I'm saying they have been tested. By numerous people.

There are few official documents and videos, but there is a very large word of mouth.

That should be evidence enough.

I'd have been more reluctant to make a snarky post had you not been snarky towards everyone else in the first place.

To be fair, that's how John acts towards everyone. Even his close friends (like me ). He doesn't mean any harm and it's pretty obvious he doesn't if you get to know him.

He may come off as grating, but he's being civil in his own way. "Say it like it it," is his motto. (Okay not actually his motto but it describes him perfectly.)

 

[Muster]

No. I'm saying they have been tested. By numerous people.

There are few official documents and videos, but there is a very large word of mouth.

They should be tested again, then. This IS a brand new game we're talking about. I just don't want to see things banned straight off of the starting line. At the very least have them tested with competitive players in pseudo-competitive environments.

I'm speaking for stages as well, all stages should at least be tested once before getting the Banhammer. except for stages that are too big or have tons of stage hazards.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

They should be tested again, then. This IS a brand new game we're talking about. I just don't want to see things banned straight off of the starting line. At the very least have them tested with competitive players in pseudo-competitive environments.

Mmm....

I think two times through is enough.

I don't see items getting a re-haul.

If they do, the possibility is there.

Otherwise no.

 

[Muster]

I don't see items getting a re-haul.

If they do, the possibility is there.

That's what i'm saying. There's a possibility. We shouldn't be deciding how the game will be played this early when we have barely any info on it. Items most likely will not get the change they need, but who knows? it's a brand new game(s). we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

That's what i'm saying. There's a possibility. We shouldn't be deciding how the game will be played this early when we have barely any info on it. Items most likely will not get the change they need, but who knows? it's a brand new game(s). we'll just have to wait and see.

If they get a big re-haul.

And I mean a BIG re-haul.

Then yeah, I may agree with you.

But if they're anywhere near what they're like in 64, Melee or Brawl then no.

 

[salaboB]

There are few official documents and videos, but there is a very large word of mouth.

Okay: Posts pictures of Phoenix Wright, then follows up by claiming word of mouth should be evidence enough.

Confirmation bias will be huge as a flaw in this "evidence". Not to mention we don't know what item sets were selected (If they were fair or not), or even exactly what you mean by "skew results drastically."

tl;dr: Please quit posting attorney pictures if you have no idea what constitutes good evidence. Shouting "Objection!" doesn't actually count in the real world.

Edit: To be clear, I'm not even trying to get you to accept that items would be the best for you. Simply to stop saying they're bad as if it's been proven -- because it hasn't even been proven in Brawl, let alone Smash 4. Only in Melee has it been proven they were bad (And I'd imagine 64, for similar reasons to Melee )

 

[Delta-cod]

Inui!?

That's nice and all (I tend to be snarkier towards people I know too), but you can't expect strangers to respond with the utmost courtesy when you're not being exactly courteous yourself. But that's all I really have to say, since he wasn't being a total asshat to anyone.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Okay: Posts pictures of Phoenix Wright, then follows up by claiming word of mouth should be evidence enough..

There was a whole case in Ace Attorney where common sense was the determining factor.

Word of mouth can actually be something usable in court. It depends on the case.

Confirmation bias will be huge as a flaw in this "evidence". Not to mention we don't know what item sets were selected (If they were fair or not), or even exactly what you mean by "skew results drastically."

I think you know exactly what I mean by "skew results drastically"

Smashballs, Trophies, Pokéballs, Explosive Maximum Tomatoes, Heart Containers, Dragoons, Mega Mushrooms, Tiny Mushrooms, Warp Stars, Starmen, Metal Boxes, Bunny Hood, Super Spicy Curry, the Timer, the Electric thing, the Beam Sword, the Home-Run Bat, the Fan, the Star Rod, the Hammer, the Golden Hammer, the Super Scope, the Ray Gun, the Fire Flower, the Firecracker Launcher, Bomb-ombs, Star Fox Bombs, Deku Nuts, Freezemans, Pitfalls, and the EarthBound badge are all OP, and can potential either lead to way too early deaths, are OP kill setup moves, or can have insane combos.

Crates, Sanbags, Food, Lip's Stick, Motion Sensor Bombs, Gooey Bombs, the fire guys, Green Shells (what happened to red shells=???), Banana peels, bumpers, spring, that blue thing, soccer balls, team healer, and the Screw Attack all cause huge amounts of camping, stalling, and slower and less exciting matches. The flipper (it's in Melee, but not Brawl) does the same thing.

Mr. Saturn's are just annoying, and also does what the things I mentioned early do, but just to a lesser extent.

The Invisible Thing (it's an item in Melee, but not Brawl) also causes lots of camping and zoning, and just in slows down the match to a near halt.

The smoke ball thing literally does nothing but cause a distraction, as well as give Brawl framerate issues.

Heck, nearly all items cause frame rate issues.

All that stuff.

All that can be easily backed up if you're willing to play the game a bit.

tl;dr: Please quit posting attorney pictures if you have no idea what constitutes good evidence. Shouting "Objection!" doesn't actually count in the real world.

Well, of course.

You need to say Objection and then your type of objection.

I'm not as dumb as you think I am.

Edit: To be clear, I'm not even trying to get you to accept that items would be the best for you. Simply to stop saying they're bad as if it's been proven -- because it hasn't even been proven in Brawl, let alone Smash 4. Only in Melee has it been proven they were bad (And I'd imagine 64, for similar reasons to Melee )

It has been proven in Brawl. There was a whole EVO 2008 fiasco. Look it up. It's probably not the "testing" you're looking for, but it certainly was an eye opener.

And if Smash 4 has a similar item setup to either of them, it will have no need to be proven.

Inui!?

I have no idea what this means!

nice and all (I tend to be snarkier towards people I know too), but you can't expect strangers to respond with the utmost courtesy when you're not being exactly courteous yourself. But that's all I really have to say, since he wasn't being a total ****** to anyone.

I understand completely. I was just trying to clarify. He really doesn't mean any harm.

 

[Johnknight1]

I've never seen someone take Phoenix Wright gifs or images that seriously. Calm down man, it's clearly just a joke.

They should be tested again, then.

It's called local and regional events if they want to. Local and regional scenes and TO's will do this if they feel like it.

The National Rules should start out the same.

Also, there have been no indications that items have been rehauled in any ways.

I'm speaking for stages as well, all stages should at least be tested once before getting the Banhammer. (except for you know, gigantic ones.)

Not all stages. Huge stages, stages with huge amounts of hazards (like Spear Pillar), and most walkoff stages should be auto-banned regardless of anything, because they all have huge gigantic flaws for a competitive match.

You also called practically everyone out with "Because unlike most of the people here, I'm an actually competitive player who enters tournaments." which is no way to be welcoming to the new players who MIGHT EVEN BE INTERESTED IN COMPETING..

From the thing you originally quoted...

The opinions of people who don't enter or host tournaments (or plan on doing so) doesn't matter on this. It doesn't effect them.

Read it before you criticize it. I've flat out said this or something similar in all of my posts in that regards. My last post I essentially said it six times so many people (including you) who don't even read what I'm saying through and through actually it because that's almost all I said (although you still seemed to have missed it).

Seriously folks, is it so hard to read=???

Anyways, going into specifics will take a huge amount of time and you're better off reading Jack's ISP thread in the Brawl Competitive Forum. I'll just say that you notion of items becoming more broken over time is just wrong. So many of Brawl's items are only good for one time use projectiles, lol.

I've seen his stuff.

It's wacky and assumes that camping, stalling, and running away doesn't exist in competitive Brawl, which is most certainly does.

Still, I will concede that I'm wrong on how they work in Brawl. I'm sure the Ice Climbers are still broken with them, especially if they both pick up an item and throw it, thus creating pressure, and either forcing a player to shield or dodge, which probably either leads to a grab (and chain grabs?) or being hit pretty good.

Now imagine that in a game with actual offense, and you got scary potential. Seeing as how Smash Wii U and 3DS look more like Melee, yeah, that's a problem.

 

[salaboB]

It's wacky and assumes that camping, stalling, and running away doesn't exist in competitive Brawl, which is most certainly does.

And items would give you something to throw at the person who is attempting to camp, stall, and/or run away. Might even help with ledge camping issues, but we wouldn't know -- they've never been properly tested in competitive scenarios where people would be inclined to try that because they actually cared about winning. (This is also why small side tournaments with dubious item setups are terrible evidence for items not working, because people have to really be trying or we can't tell if they were actually messed up by items, or if they lost because they were just having fun and goofing around that game)

Still, I will concede that I'm wrong on how they work in Brawl. I'm sure the Ice Climbers are still broken with them, especially if they both pick up an item and throw it, thus creating pressure, and either forcing a player to shield or dodge, which probably either leads to a grab (and chain grabs?) or being hit pretty good.

You don't really have any idea how items would be set up either, apparently. The item rate would not be high enough for two ice climbers to both get items unless their opponent really screwed up and just, say, planked until both IC's were equipped.

Sure, there's a million ways that items could be set up badly, which is what most of your problem examples are relying on. But there's also a million ways tournaments in general could be set up badly, and the same solution is present for both: Smart people test various rulesets and spread the word about what works and what doesn't.

 

[Muster]

It's called local and regional events if they want to. Local and regional scenes and TO's will do this if they feel like it.
The National Rules should start out the same.

I literally said they should test with separate tournaments in an earlier post.

Also, there have been no indications that items have been rehauled in any ways.

There haven't been indications that they haven't, either. It's too early to tell almost anything about how the game will turn out.

Not all stages. Huge stages, stages with huge amounts of hazards (like Spear Pillar), and most walkoff stages should be auto-banned regardless of anything, because they all have huge gigantic flaws for a competitive match.

I also mentioned huge stages, but i agree on the second and third parts. i'll edit my post accordingly.

Also, people's opinions DO matter, whether or not they're going to be in tournaments. everyone will have their 2 cents concerning topics like this, and ignoring certain people who can't or won't be involved in tournaments is rude. especially if they care enough to go out of their way to post their opinion on the topic at hand.

 

[JediLink]

There was a whole case in Ace Attorney where common sense was the determining factor.

Off topic: Which one was that?

On topic: I have nothing to say; this thread is bonkers. I'll leave it to you guys.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Off topic: Which one was that?

The final case in Apollo Justice.

There was "technically" no evidence as it was destroyed, but people were able to figure out who the real killer was, through very simple thinking.

They then got the person on trial a non-guilty verdict because of it.

This was all with a jury system by the way, which was done to try and do away with the loopholes in the law system.

Interesting philosophy if you think about it.

On topic: I have nothing to say; this thread is bonkers. I'll leave it to you guys.

Yeah....

Any thread that turns into a competitive vs casual becomes a mess.

A warzone really.

It's a shame too.

Because most "competitive" love to play casually, with item, special modes, etc.

And most "casuals" are a lot more competitive and take things more seriously than you'd think.

We're really not so different.

 

[JediLink]

The final case in Apollo Justice.

Oh yeah, I remember now. It's been a while since I've played AJ.

 

[ZelDan]

The final case in Apollo Justice.

There was "technically" no evidence as it was destroyed, but people were able to figure out who the real killer was, through very simple thinking.

They then got the person on trial a non-guilty verdict because of it.

This was all with a jury system by the way, which was done to try and do away with the loopholes in the law system.

Interesting philosophy if you think about it.


Yeah....

Any thread that turns into a competitive vs casual becomes a mess.

A warzone really.

It's a shame too.

Because most "competitive" love to play casually, with item, special modes, etc.

And most "casuals" are a lot more competitive and take things more seriously than you'd think.

We're really not so different.

Yeah, a casual player in smash could still have competitive mindset to, atleast on a basic level. I know before I found out about competitive smash that, while I played smash for fun, I still had the desire to win and wanted to outplay and out-think my friends. Back then I had the competitive desire, I was just unaware of the competitive smash scene. I could see this being the case with alot of other people too.

And along with that, I don't really hate playing casually either to this day (although it can be more frustrating at times, especially in Brawl).

 

[josh bones]

That topic was bull*** and you know it Johnknight. I'm not competitive, but heres what I mean.
If it's a returning brawl stage, and was banned, stay banned.
However, until we have tourney evidence, that a stage is *** it's legal.

 

[ryuu seika]

If it's a returning brawl stage, and was banned, stay banned.

Even this is wrong in a way. Take Hyrule Temple for example. Certain characters are fast enough to basically run away forever. Now, what if the new game played like subspace emissary? They'd all be the same speed. Hyrule Temple's main flaw would be gone. It would need retesting.
Now, I'm not saying that alone would fix the stage, it still has potential for wall infinites and the like, but the stage would play very differently with just the one simple game change.

 

[josh bones]

Melee stages aren't coming back IMO.

Even this is wrong in a way. Take Hyrule Temple for example. Certain characters are fast enough to basically run away forever. Now, what if the new game played like subspace emissary? They'd all be the same speed. Hyrule Temple's main flaw would be gone. It would need retesting.
quote]
Temple's main flaw is that it's ridley sized

 

[Johnknight1]

Also, people's opinions DO matter, whether or not they're going to be in tournaments. everyone will have their 2 cents concerning topics like this, and ignoring certain people who can't or won't be involved in tournaments is rude. especially if they care enough to go out of their way to post their opinion on the topic at hand.

People who don't enter or plan on entering or running tournaments have opinions that do not matter in my opinion because they are opinions that should not impact tournaments.

That's not to say they don't have a right to say it, only that tournaments don't involve them, and they don't impact attendance.

And it isn't rude. It's how things work. People in the UK don't get to vote in American elections, no matter how "rude" it seems.

Similarly, stockholders in say Apple have a voice in the stockholder meetings that non-stockholders are denied.

The "I'm entitled to be equal to people in things that don't concern me" belief doesn't validate the impact of non-tournament hosting or going Smashers. It just doesn't.

That topic was bull*** and you know it Johnknight.

The way the topic is run.

However, until we have tourney evidence, that a stage is *** it's legal.

This logic is awful.

This is why I played a freaking tournament match on Mario Bros back when I played Brawl competitively... that and the player I faced was being a idiot for picking it (camp, camp, camp, camp, camp, camp, camp, camp), and the TO was awful for allowing such a terrible stage list (which included Skyworld, Yoshi's Island Melee, Port Town Aero Dive, Green Hill Zone, Mario Circuit and Green Greens amongst other stages that should never be legal).

Do you know how many people quit Brawl because of these awful stage lists that allowed stages with permanent walk offs, gigantic (camping/stalling/hit and run prone) stages, stages with stages hazards that interfere too much, and awfully interfering moving stages=??? It was terrible, and it's why Brawl in many regions died as quickly as it did... because competing in tournaments wasn't fun (yes, competitive players want to have fun, too), and because the best players didn't enter those tournaments, or just quit. That's what ultimately for all intensive purposes essentially destroyed Brawl in my region (NorCal).

 

[ryuu seika]

Melee stages aren't coming back IMO.

It was an example. Remove gliding and New Pork City could have a similar case made, though I personally think Temple was by far the better stage of the two.

My point is this: even if the stages return unchanged, gameplay changes can make a significant difference to their playability.

 

[josh bones]

This logic is awful.

This is why I played a freaking tournament match on Mario Bros back when I played Brawl competitively... that and the player I faced was being a idiot for picking it (camp, camp, camp, camp, camp, camp, camp, camp), and the TO was awful for allowing such a terrible stage list (which included Skyworld, Yoshi's Island Melee, Port Town Aero Dive, Green Hill Zone, Mario Circuit and Green Greens amongst other stages that should never be legal).

Do you know how many people quit Brawl because of these awful stage lists that allowed stages with permanent walk offs, gigantic (camping/stalling/hit and run prone) stages, stages with stages hazards that interfere too much, and awfully interfering moving stages=??? It was terrible, and it's why Brawl in many regions died as quickly as it did... because competing in tournaments wasn't fun (yes, competitive players want to have fun, too), and because the best players didn't enter those tournaments, or just quit. That's what ultimately for all intensive purposes essentially destroyed Brawl in my region (NorCal).

Then you have evidence it should be banned when/if it returns in ssb4. But the new stages, don't seem to be walkoffs, and only 1 has hazards, so we need tourney evidence for those.

 

[Substitution]

Then you have evidence it should be banned when/if it returns in ssb4. But the new stages, don't seem to be walkoffs, and only 1 has hazards, so we need tourney evidence for those.

Here:

Mario 3d Land Stage (3DS):
Scrolling stage
Hazards
Shifting terrain
Or:

Wily's Castle (Wii U)
With it's most glaring problem being the Yellow Devil.

 

[ryuu seika]

The Smash community are often very eager to ban stages with little or no evidence but, at the same time, some stage aspects are just too obviously either unfair or simply too extreme (Norfair's full screen lava, for example) to allow. I do feel the community should have more of an open mind than it has had I the past but, at the same time, I don't want to be playing Norfair, Mario Circuit or 75M day 1 just because it might (har har) be saved by game mechanics.

Where we draw the line without hard evidence needs some serious consideration because, while overbanning from the get go would be a terrible thing to do, people do have a point in saying that we shouldn't just allow everything. Some stages really detract from the ability to have a proper, skilled tournament and this can be seriously detrimental to keeping players on the scene.

EDIT: On the subject of the stages above, both sound bad, since scrolling favours fast characters or those that can induce large hitstun and Yellow Devil sounds like a Norfair scale game swinger, but it's still possible that they could be playable. I would say we atleast have to see them properly before we can write them off entirely.

 

[Muster]

And it isn't rude. It's how things work. People in the UK don't get to vote in American elections, no matter how "rude" it seems.

This isn't an election, this is a thread in which people are voicing their opinions on what they think the tournament rules are going to be for a game that isn't yet released. In the long run, this thread will not effect how the rules actually are decided, so technically, nobody's opinion matters here. If this was a thread that was directly deciding what the rules would be instead of speculation, then i would agree with you. But at this point it's just speculation.

(on a side note, i do plan on entering tournaments in the future, but it's gonna be bit tough since there's nobody around in Kansas.)