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What are the standard tournament rules for a new Smash game?

PlayerXIII

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Just something that struck me out of nowhere since I am planning to become a competitive player with SSB4. When a new Smash game comes out, what are the standard rules? Items on or off? Any stages that could be blatantly banned out of competitive play instantly? I just want to know if there is a standard as my practice will start as soon as the game is released and, well, I want to know what stages to expect to be banned after one or two tournaments (so I don't practice too much on them) and if I should master using items.
 

Tree Cat

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All items off to remove any randomness. Stages are usually banned out if they favor certain characters greatly (great bay in melee: falco/fox can side-b across bottom) or if they have stage hazards (75m, pirate ship in brawl). My guess is that SSB4 will follow the same 4 stock 8 minute rules unless there are some serious mechanic changes that greatly change gameplay we don't know about yet.

EDIT: You can go on ssbwiki.com and check out each stage in the past 3 games. They have a "Tournament legality" section that explains why the stage isn't/is legal. These should give you a good guideline in your head for the next game.
 
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Johnknight1

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1. No items
2. No moving stages in some tournaments, and when moving stages are legal, they aren't too bad.
3. 3 or 4 stocks, 8 minute time limit
4. No stages when super hazards.
5. No gigantic stages
6. No stalling, planking, or camping to delay the action.
7. No trying to time out a match.
8. No using super broken glitches/hacks/whatever (see: the black hole glitch, Meta Knight's infinite down B).

>.>
 

Zonderion

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This can actually be a touchy subject for some. All of the above posters are correct in that those rulesets are what have been used in the past for the tournament scene, and probably rightly so.

However, I, as some others, believe that a tournament can be legitimately accomplished with things like items on. There was a thread around here some time ago that wanted to achieve the notion that we shouldn't immediately create rulesets before the game came out, or even in the first few months of its release. The reasoning is there can be some very rich, competitive gameplay on stages that get banned initially and people never play, etc.

IMO, its best to keep an open mind on the types of stages, and other rulesets before trying to implement a "standard". Just my 2 cents.
 

Kamikazek

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1. No items
2. No moving stages in some tournaments, and when moving stages are legal, they aren't too bad.
3. 3 or 4 stocks, 8 minute time limit
4. No stages when super hazards.
5. No gigantic stages
6. No stalling, planking, or camping to delay the action.
7. No trying to time out a match.
8. No using super broken glitches/hacks/whatever (see: the black hole glitch, Meta Knight's infinite down B).

>.>
How or why on earth could the black hole glitch even happen in a competitive match? o.O
 

ZelDan

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Rules regarding stocks and time limit SHOULD wait until the game actually comes out and we know how quick or slow matches generally take. For all we know 2 or 5 stocks may end up being the most ideal stock amounts for matches.

But more general stuff like stalling rules, no pausing during matches, friendly fire in team matches, etc. will likely carry over.
 
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Hong

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Until we can have the game spawn items in set places at set times, items will never have a place in competitive play. Until there is any news of such functionality, we can safely hit that one out of the park for the time being. If we can, say, have a beam sword spawn at centre stage every minute, it could make for interesting play that I would like to experiment with.

I wouldn't say stages with hazards on them are out of the question. It depends on if:

a) Does it follow a set cycle and position, or is it random?
b) Will it add to the experience and provide some sort of healthy game dynamic, or will it just encourage camping and lead to stagnation of activity?

Stages where lethal hazards run rampant at random places or random intervals is bound to bone one participant or help another. It's not fun and it's potentially not fair.
3. 3 or 4 stocks, 8 minute time limit
We'll see.

The stock count has decreased each game to reflect the average stock life span. SSB64, the most volatile entry in the series, where every character has 0%->death combos, is usually played with five stocks. On the other end of the spectrum, with how people can live to ridiculous percentages in Brawl, we play with three stocks.

From the most recent build we have seen of Smash Bros, it looks like the overall floatiness will be reduced and as such recovery will be less generous. In addition, it seems it will be easier to edge-guard overall.

Of course, we'll have to play to find out. If we get more hit-stun and combos become a staple of the series again, hopefully we can comfortably run five stock matches again.
 

Johnknight1

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Rules regarding stocks and time limit SHOULD wait until the game actually comes out and we know how quick or slow matches generally take. For all we know 2 or 5 stocks may end up being the most ideal stock amounts for matches.
The time limit and stock amount is a suggest started point. Naturally over time the rules will evolve obviously, including on those 2 things.
How or why on earth could the black hole glitch even happen in a competitive match? o.O
There's a lot of (similar) glitches that are like that which can conceivably happen in a 2v2 or even 1v1 setting.

There's some glitch on Dreamland 64 in Melee where you go straight to the main menu, as well as some glitch where a few characters can go through Dreamland 64.

Brawl has some similarly wacky crap with stages, especially when items are involved (including items Peach can pull out in her down B).
However, I, as some others, believe that a tournament can be legitimately accomplished with things like items on.
Randomly spawning things like items can't happen if you want a truly competitive environment.

After all, in a boxing match, you don't see random items spawn, or other people join in the fight with another fighter. It just makes no sense. The point of the boxing match is to prove who is the better boxer in that match. The point of competitive smash is to prove who is the better smasher.

Also, items get more and more broken every game. There are tons of zero to death combos in each game, and they get worse each game. Plus, if items were legal, characters like Olimar, Rosalina, Mewtwo, and Ice Climbers would need to be banned (because of many zero to death combos), or else only those characters would even compete in tournaments.

Trust me, if you think Pikachu in Smash 64 or Meta Knight in Brawl is bad, give the Ice Climbers in Melee or Brawl items at the highest level, and it will never be a close competition.
IMO, its best to keep an open mind on the types of stages, and other rulesets before trying to implement a "standard". Just my 2 cents.
So what you're saying is we should refuse to use the logical understandings we have in the past 3 smash games at all=???

What is the logic behind that=???
 

salaboB

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Randomly spawning things like items can't happen if you want a truly competitive environment.
Man, it sucks that Brawl wasn't a truly competitive game.

I'm sure you see why: Randomly occurring things like tripping can't happen if you want a truly competitive environment.

And every character that has a random result skill needs banning too. I don't get why Peach/Dedede/Olimar/G&W/Luigi were tournament legal.

Well, I guess it just goes to show how neither Melee (Still had the random character results, see: Peach, Luigi, G&W) nor Brawl were truly competitive.

tl;dr: If you think this is just sarcasm, consider why that randomness was acceptable. The same can actually apply to items (If carefully chosen so you don't get too big an advantage by grabbing one)
 
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Johnknight1

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Man, it sucks that Brawl wasn't a truly competitive game.
Well, I guess it just goes to show how neither Melee (Still had the random character results, see: Peach, Luigi) nor Brawl were truly competitive.
The difference is random things such as the turnips Peach pulls out (or occasionally bomb-ombs and beam swords), the minions Dedede throws, the Weegee side B 1/8th super explosion, and the G&W Judgment Hammer all are randomness that happens in a contained environment.

They aren't randomly spawning. They happen with a clearly conceived purpose, and they don't break the game or cause much effect.

Items, on the other hand, spawn randomly (instead of caused by an input for an attack), are almost universally more overpowered than the top tier characters (and it gets worse each game), promote camping and zoning to an insane extent, favor inaction (other than spawn camping), and thus, do have a gigantic impact.

Back to my boxing analogy, G&W pulling out a nine with his Judgment Hammer is like a knockout punch. Sure, you don't see it coming, but the threat is always there, and it's obviously within the context of a fight, although out of the blue knockout punches are fairly rare. The same could be said of Peach pulling out a bomb-or beam sword.

What would a freaking spawning item be=??? It would be like rewarding a boxer for just staying on one spot in the ring, instead of moving around and forcing action.

Getting an item also is a reward for nothing other than going to a certain location, which, in a context of a fight (whether Smash Bros. or boxing), shouldn't be a thing.
 

salaboB

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The difference is random things such as the turnips Peach pulls out (or occasionally bomb-ombs and beam swords), the minions Dedede throws, the Weegee side B 1/8th super explosion, and the G&W Judgment Hammer all are randomness that happens in a contained environment.
The stage is a contained environment.

What would a freaking spawning item be=??? It would be like rewarding a boxer for just staying on one spot in the ring, instead of moving around and forcing action.

Getting an item also is a reward for nothing other than going to a certain location, which, in a context of a fight (whether Smash Bros. or boxing), shouldn't be a thing.
Yes, if the boxer can hold the center of the ring so they're most likely to be in reach of the items, with the other boxer pummeling their face because they can't dodge around effectively -- yes, they deserve it.

This is how items would also function. There's tradeoffs to zone control that are currently lacking, items would most likely increase the game's competitive depth and skill ceiling, not decrease it.
 

Johnknight1

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The stage is a contained environment.
It is a contained (but often not controlled) environment, yes.

The point of competitive play is to play on a contained and controlled environment. Items destroy any hope for the latter.
Yes, if the boxer can hold the center of the ring so they're most likely to be in reach of the items, with the other boxer pummeling their face because they can't dodge around effectively -- yes, they deserve it.
But then why would you need a randomly spawning item to win=???

If you're controlling the stage, odds are you win.

And if you give the person winning more strength, then doesn't that kill the chance for natural comebacks=???

Isn't that something like artificial victories or artificial enhancement=???

Are you saying randomly spawning items should know better than us, the players, how to win=???
This is how items would also function. There's tradeoffs to zone control that are currently lacking, items would most likely increase the game's competitive depth and skill ceiling, not decrease it.
This isn't how items function. Not a bit. And even if they did function this way, they're still super OP.

All you gotta do is go look up video of what people were able to do with the Ice Climbers and Mewtwo in Melee with items back in 2005, and think what 2014 skill could do with that. It would be unstoppable.

Brawl is even worse. For such a defensive game, most items make it to where if you don't have an item, you are hopeless, and, again, it doesn't add any competitive depth.

And like I said before, Ice Climbers, Olimar, and Mewtwo were previously super broken with items. Rosalina will likely follow suite. Either the competitive scene would devolve into a camping/stalling mess with those 4 characters (and a few more or less), or those characters would be banned. Either way, you hinder the competitive community and environment.

On top of that, items favor the faster moving characters, because they can more easily reach the items. Last I checked, almost all of the top characters in each of the 3 games are fast characters, while almost none of them are slow characters.
 

Zonderion

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Naturally, this is why I said it is a touchy subject for some. It seems as though you are passionate about perfect balance and it definitely comes off in your posts.
Randomly spawning things like items can't happen if you want a truly competitive environment.
Compete (verb): 1. strive to gain or win something by defeating or establishing superiority over others who are trying to do the same.

If two players choose to have items on, then they can have a truly competitive environment. So, yes. Randomly spawning things can happen for a truly competitive enironment.
After all, in a boxing match, you don't see random items spawn, or other people join in the fight with another fighter. It just makes no sense. The point of the boxing match is to prove who is the better boxer in that match. The point of competitive smash is to prove who is the better smasher.
While your analogy is close, its not as close as you need it to be. Its one thing to say who is the better "fighter" and let a wrestler and a boxer go at it. But then its another thing to say who is the better "boxer" and let two boxers fight.

In order to maintain perfect balance, (which is what you are implying by saying there shouldn't be items) then both players should play the exact same character. Fox vs Fox. Peach vs Peach. Olimar vs Olimar. <--- This is the only true test to see which player is the better "smasher". So in order for your analogy of "boxing" to work, you must accept the above premise, that both players are using the same tools. In Smash, they aren't as two different characters have different tools at their disposal.

But that is besides the point. The point I was making, is that you can still have a truly competitive environment with items. Is it the same environment you want, probably not, but that doesn't mean it can't be truly competitive.

Also, items get more and more broken every game. There are tons of zero to death combos in each game, and they get worse each game. Plus, if items were legal, characters like Olimar, Rosalina, Mewtwo, and Ice Climbers would need to be banned (because of many zero to death combos), or else only those characters would even compete in tournaments.

Trust me, if you think Pikachu in Smash 64 or Meta Knight in Brawl is bad, give the Ice Climbers in Melee or Brawl items at the highest level, and it will never be a close competition.
I don't remember where I said that "ALL" items should be on. Yes, the game has some broken items, but not all of the items are broken.
Also, when have you played Smash 4 to know that there are zero to death combos in the game? As far as we know, there could be combo breakers introduced in Smash 4. Just because a character acts a certain way in the past games, does not mean they will act the same in the new one. They've already changed a couple of Pit's moves.

So what you're saying is we should refuse to use the logical understandings we have in the past 3 smash games at all=???

What is the logic behind that=???
Wow, you sure do jump to assumptions don't you? You are letting the past games close your mind to new possibilities. And this is why I said it. You do not have an open mind about this. It is as clear as day from your posts. You refuse to let the possibilities of different gameplay, from a game that we don't even have yet, influence how you will play the game.

I never said that the past rulesets were wrong. I simply said to keep an open mind about the potential gameplay we could have if we aren't so quick to ban things left and right.
 

Johnknight1

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Naturally, this is why I said it is a touchy subject for some. It seems as though you are passionate about perfect balance and it definitely comes off in your posts.
Because unlike most of the people here, I'm an actually competitive player who enters tournaments.

Unlike most of the users here, this effects me. Competitive Brawl already wasn't fun for me when it became the camping/stalling/running away battle that it was in competitive Brawl for much of 2009 and 2010. Melee with items isn't fun in a competitive setting, because it randomly changes results.

Now people are trying to ruin my fun with items=??? Yeah, no. That's not happening, even though I am better with items than your average competitive player.

The opinions of people who don't enter or host tournaments (or plan on doing so) doesn't matter on this. It doesn't effect them.
While your analogy is close, its not as close as you need it to be. Its one thing to say who is the better "fighter" and let a wrestler and a boxer go at it. But then its another thing to say who is the better "boxer" and let two boxers fight.
What the hell does that have to do with my analogy=??? You're literally turning my boxing analogy into an MMA analogy for no reason other than to "win" the argument.
In order to maintain perfect balance, (which is what you are implying by saying there shouldn't be items)
No I'm not. I never once said that. Clearly you need help with reading comprehension if that's what you got out of that.
But that is besides the point. The point I was making, is that you can still have a truly competitive environment with items. Is it the same environment you want, probably not, but that doesn't mean it can't be truly competitive.
It's not a truly competitive environment because luck will win out on a fairly regular basis, instead of skill.

That's why items were banned in Melee after being legal in parts of the world for 2-5 years, and that's why in Brawl they are only legal in casual tournaments with minimal (if any) money or prestige on the line in regions where the level of play is fairly low.

Boxing is done in a ring. It is supposed to initiate action because the point of boxing is to win a match whether by stoppage or decision by doing more damage than your opponent did to you

If you put two boxers in an open field and randomly spawn items to where one boxer "wins" by blowing the other boxer up, is it still boxing=??? No.
I don't remember where I said that "ALL" items should be on. Yes, the game has some broken items, but not all of the items are broken.

Smashballs, Trophies, Pokéballs, Explosive Maximum Tomatoes, Heart Containers, Dragoons, Mega Mushrooms, Tiny Mushrooms, Warp Stars, Starmen, Metal Boxes, Bunny Hood, Super Spicy Curry, the Timer, the Electric thing, the Beam Sword, the Home-Run Bat, the Fan, the Star Rod, the Hammer, the Golden Hammer, the Super Scope, the Ray Gun, the Fire Flower, the Firecracker Launcher, Bomb-ombs, Star Fox Bombs, Deku Nuts, Freezemans, Pitfalls, and the EarthBound badge are all OP, and can potential either lead to way too early deaths, are OP kill setup moves, or can have insane combos.

Crates, Sanbags, Food, Lip's Stick, Motion Sensor Bombs, Gooey Bombs, the fire guys, Green Shells (what happened to red shells=???), Banana peels, bumpers, spring, that blue thing, soccer balls, team healer, and the Screw Attack all cause huge amounts of camping, stalling, and slower and less exciting matches. The flipper (it's in Melee, but not Brawl) does the same thing.

Mr. Saturn's are just annoying, and also does what the things I mentioned early do, but just to a lesser extent.

The Invisible Thing (it's an item in Melee, but not Brawl) also causes lots of camping and zoning, and just in slows down the match to a near halt.

The smoke ball thing literally does nothing but cause a distraction, as well as give Brawl framerate issues.

Heck, nearly all items cause frame rate issues.

Why not unban player caused frame rate issues=???

But to the point, the few items that aren't OP or cause huge gameplay annoyances at the top tier level.

The point of a match is to "play to win". If camping, stalling, or just in general anti-action based fighting gives you the best bet to win, people will do it, and they will win, and more people will copy them until it becomes the norm.

That sort of campy and stalling-heavy approach is what shot competitive Brawl in the foot (until the rules banned and punished that kind of play).
Also, when have you played Smash 4 to know that there are zero to death combos in the game? As far as we know, there could be combo breakers introduced in Smash 4. Just because a character acts a certain way in the past games, does not mean they will act the same in the new one. They've already changed a couple of Pit's moves.
Every game has had a few characters get move changes. Veterans getting new moves nothing new.

You know what else isn't new=??? How items are almost universally OP, universally slow down matches, make competitive matches less fun (yes, fun is a factor) to compete in, and just in generally making everything less balanced, and make the mid tiers down unplayable.

That's not even mentioning how Sonic is faster than Project M Sonic, and how quickly he could get items, whereas slow moving characters like Jigglypuff, Link, and Ganondorf... are screwed (especially if they're all underpowered again like in Brawl).

And no, there won't be combo breakers as a mechanic. That type of mechanic doesn't work in smash, and is clearly not in the game. And if combo breakers are in the game, then the competitive scene won't last, because that will inevitably lead to a game that is overly reliant on counter-striking instead of actual fighting.

And even if there are such a thing, it won't stop Nana from getting items along with Popo, item throw combos with team characters (not just do we have Icies and Olimar plus his Pikmin, but Rosalina and her Luma now!), and characters like Mewtwo who grab their items with psychic powers and use them.

Wow, you sure do jump to assumptions don't you? You are letting the past games close your mind to new possibilities.
Well has the very premise of items changed=??? No it hasn't.

Items still randomly spawn, randomly favor one player or another, randomly become the most powerful thing on the stage, give an unfair advantage to fast characters (almost all top and high tier characters in each smash game are above average in movement speed), make the team characters broken, randomly cause players to have to camp and stall and run away if they truly want to do anything within the rules to win, and just create a scenario that isn't fun to play at a competitive level, and thus will inevitably lead in a huge falling out of the competitive community.

But hey, if you want that, more power to you, even though it won't happen because TO's want people to actually enjoy tournaments.

Lastly, the automatic bans are to make everything enjoyable and fair from day 1.

If something is banned is no longer-ban worthy, it is unbanned, including if items are balanced (which they aren't) and add depth (which they also won't).
 

OcarinaOfDoom

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If we start the SSB4 scene with items I will doubt the mental sanity of the people running the scene.
 

Zonderion

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Because unlike most of the people here, I'm an actually competitive player who enters tournaments.

Unlike most of the users here, this effects me. Competitive Brawl already wasn't fun for me when it became the camping/stalling/running away battle that it was in competitive Brawl for much of 2009 and 2010. Melee with items isn't fun in a competitive setting, because it randomly changes results.

Now people are trying to ruin my fun with items=??? Yeah, no. That's not happening, even though I am better with items than your average competitive player.
Cause you're the only player that matters? You know what, you are right. Screw EVERY OTHER player that wants play differently from you. SCREW THEM!!!!
/end saracasm.
The opinions of people who don't enter or host tournaments (or plan on doing so) doesn't matter on this. It doesn't effect them.

What the hell does that have to do with my analogy=??? You're literally turning my boxing analogy into an MMA analogy for no reason other than to "win" the argument.

No I'm not. I never once said that. Clearly you need help with reading comprehension if that's what you got out of that.
It's not a truly competitive environment because luck will win out on a fairly regular basis, instead of skill.

That's why items were banned in Melee after being legal in parts of the world for 2-5 years, and that's why in Brawl they are only legal in casual tournaments with minimal (if any) money or prestige on the line in regions where the level of play is fairly low.

Boxing is done in a ring. It is supposed to initiate action because the point of boxing is to win a match whether by stoppage or decision by doing more damage than your opponent did to you

If you put two boxers in an open field and randomly spawn items to where one boxer "wins" by blowing the other boxer up, is it still boxing=??? No.


Smashballs, Trophies, Pokéballs, Explosive Maximum Tomatoes, Heart Containers, Dragoons, Mega Mushrooms, Tiny Mushrooms, Warp Stars, Starmen, Metal Boxes, Bunny Hood, Super Spicy Curry, the Timer, the Electric thing, the Beam Sword, the Home-Run Bat, the Fan, the Star Rod, the Hammer, the Golden Hammer, the Super Scope, the Ray Gun, the Fire Flower, the Firecracker Launcher, Bomb-ombs, Star Fox Bombs, Deku Nuts, Freezemans, Pitfalls, and the EarthBound badge are all OP, and can potential either lead to way too early deaths, are OP kill setup moves, or can have insane combos.

Crates, Sanbags, Food, Lip's Stick, Motion Sensor Bombs, Gooey Bombs, the fire guys, Green Shells (what happened to red shells=???), Banana peels, bumpers, spring, that blue thing, soccer balls, team healer, and the Screw Attack all cause huge amounts of camping, stalling, and slower and less exciting matches. The flipper (it's in Melee, but not Brawl) does the same thing.

Mr. Saturn's are just annoying, and also does what the things I mentioned early do, but just to a lesser extent.

The Invisible Thing (it's an item in Melee, but not Brawl) also causes lots of camping and zoning, and just in slows down the match to a near halt.

The smoke ball thing literally does nothing but cause a distraction, as well as give Brawl framerate issues.

Heck, nearly all items cause frame rate issues.

Why not unban player caused frame rate issues=???

But to the point, the few items that aren't OP or cause huge gameplay annoyances at the top tier level.

The point of a match is to "play to win". If camping, stalling, or just in general anti-action based fighting gives you the best bet to win, people will do it, and they will win, and more people will copy them until it becomes the norm.

That sort of campy and stalling-heavy approach is what shot competitive Brawl in the foot (until the rules banned and punished that kind of play).

Every game has had a few characters get move changes. Veterans getting new moves nothing new.

You know what else isn't new=??? How items are almost universally OP, universally slow down matches, make competitive matches less fun (yes, fun is a factor) to compete in, and just in generally making everything less balanced, and make the mid tiers down unplayable.

That's not even mentioning how Sonic is faster than Project M Sonic, and how quickly he could get items, whereas slow moving characters like Jigglypuff, Link, and Ganondorf... are screwed (especially if they're all underpowered again like in Brawl).

And no, there won't be combo breakers as a mechanic. That type of mechanic doesn't work in smash, and is clearly not in the game. And if combo breakers are in the game, then the competitive scene won't last, because that will inevitably lead to a game that is overly reliant on counter-striking instead of actual fighting.

And even if there are such a thing, it won't stop Nana from getting items along with Popo, item throw combos with team characters (not just do we have Icies and Olimar plus his Pikmin, but Rosalina and her Luma now!), and characters like Mewtwo who grab their items with psychic powers and use them.


Well has the very premise of items changed=??? No it hasn't.

Items still randomly spawn, randomly favor one player or another, randomly become the most powerful thing on the stage, give an unfair advantage to fast characters (almost all top and high tier characters in each smash game are above average in movement speed), make the team characters broken, randomly cause players to have to camp and stall and run away if they truly want to do anything within the rules to win, and just create a scenario that isn't fun to play at a competitive level, and thus will inevitably lead in a huge falling out of the competitive community.

But hey, if you want that, more power to you, even though it won't happen because TO's want people to actually enjoy tournaments.

Lastly, the automatic bans are to make everything enjoyable and fair from day 1.

If something is banned is no longer-ban worthy, it is unbanned, including if items are balanced (which they aren't) and add depth (which they also won't).
You can say what you want, do what you want and play how you want, but that doesn't change the fact that anyone can still have fun and competitive tournaments with items. End. Of. Story.

Edit: I didn't bother to read half of your post because of your improper netiquette. If you learn to respect people and their opinions, it probably wouldn't hurt your cause.
 
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Vale

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tl;dr:
x stocks w/ 8 minute timer
large stages banned pretty quickly (e.g. hyrule, new pork).
some TOs will keep items on (more popular opinion in west coast USA), but others will have it off
over time item/stage list will get refined and ISP will gain a small following if random explosives can be turned off (just like it is with brawl now)

the entire argument on this thread about whether items should be on will make literally 0 difference as to what the standard rules will be when the game comes out.
 

The Real Gamer

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You can say what you want, do what you want and play how you want, but that doesn't change the fact that anyone can still have a fun and competitive tournaments with items. End. Of. Story.
Sure anyone CAN do anything, but I thought the argument here is figuring out what the majority of the competitive community WILL do, but as an above poster stated until we have confirmation that items can have fixed spawn points and times items will most likely never become a part of competitive Smash.

And I personally feel it's for the best. Smash in and of itself is already a deep enough fighter as it is. Artificially adding depth through items feels largely unnecessary.
 

Delta-cod

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Because unlike most of the people here, I'm an actually competitive player who enters tournaments.

Unlike most of the users here, this effects me. Competitive Brawl already wasn't fun for me when it became the camping/stalling/running away battle that it was in competitive Brawl for much of 2009 and 2010. Melee with items isn't fun in a competitive setting, because it randomly changes results.

Now people are trying to ruin my fun with items=??? Yeah, no. That's not happening, even though I am better with items than your average competitive player.

The opinions of people who don't enter or host tournaments (or plan on doing so) doesn't matter on this. It doesn't effect them.

What the hell does that have to do with my analogy=??? You're literally turning my boxing analogy into an MMA analogy for no reason other than to "win" the argument.

No I'm not. I never once said that. Clearly you need help with reading comprehension if that's what you got out of that.
It's not a truly competitive environment because luck will win out on a fairly regular basis, instead of skill.

That's why items were banned in Melee after being legal in parts of the world for 2-5 years, and that's why in Brawl they are only legal in casual tournaments with minimal (if any) money or prestige on the line in regions where the level of play is fairly low.

Boxing is done in a ring. It is supposed to initiate action because the point of boxing is to win a match whether by stoppage or decision by doing more damage than your opponent did to you

If you put two boxers in an open field and randomly spawn items to where one boxer "wins" by blowing the other boxer up, is it still boxing=??? No.


Smashballs, Trophies, Pokéballs, Explosive Maximum Tomatoes, Heart Containers, Dragoons, Mega Mushrooms, Tiny Mushrooms, Warp Stars, Starmen, Metal Boxes, Bunny Hood, Super Spicy Curry, the Timer, the Electric thing, the Beam Sword, the Home-Run Bat, the Fan, the Star Rod, the Hammer, the Golden Hammer, the Super Scope, the Ray Gun, the Fire Flower, the Firecracker Launcher, Bomb-ombs, Star Fox Bombs, Deku Nuts, Freezemans, Pitfalls, and the EarthBound badge are all OP, and can potential either lead to way too early deaths, are OP kill setup moves, or can have insane combos.

Crates, Sanbags, Food, Lip's Stick, Motion Sensor Bombs, Gooey Bombs, the fire guys, Green Shells (what happened to red shells=???), Banana peels, bumpers, spring, that blue thing, soccer balls, team healer, and the Screw Attack all cause huge amounts of camping, stalling, and slower and less exciting matches. The flipper (it's in Melee, but not Brawl) does the same thing.

Mr. Saturn's are just annoying, and also does what the things I mentioned early do, but just to a lesser extent.

The Invisible Thing (it's an item in Melee, but not Brawl) also causes lots of camping and zoning, and just in slows down the match to a near halt.

The smoke ball thing literally does nothing but cause a distraction, as well as give Brawl framerate issues.

Heck, nearly all items cause frame rate issues.

Why not unban player caused frame rate issues=???

But to the point, the few items that aren't OP or cause huge gameplay annoyances at the top tier level.

The point of a match is to "play to win". If camping, stalling, or just in general anti-action based fighting gives you the best bet to win, people will do it, and they will win, and more people will copy them until it becomes the norm.

That sort of campy and stalling-heavy approach is what shot competitive Brawl in the foot (until the rules banned and punished that kind of play).

Every game has had a few characters get move changes. Veterans getting new moves nothing new.

You know what else isn't new=??? How items are almost universally OP, universally slow down matches, make competitive matches less fun (yes, fun is a factor) to compete in, and just in generally making everything less balanced, and make the mid tiers down unplayable.

That's not even mentioning how Sonic is faster than Project M Sonic, and how quickly he could get items, whereas slow moving characters like Jigglypuff, Link, and Ganondorf... are screwed (especially if they're all underpowered again like in Brawl).

And no, there won't be combo breakers as a mechanic. That type of mechanic doesn't work in smash, and is clearly not in the game. And if combo breakers are in the game, then the competitive scene won't last, because that will inevitably lead to a game that is overly reliant on counter-striking instead of actual fighting.

And even if there are such a thing, it won't stop Nana from getting items along with Popo, item throw combos with team characters (not just do we have Icies and Olimar plus his Pikmin, but Rosalina and her Luma now!), and characters like Mewtwo who grab their items with psychic powers and use them.


Well has the very premise of items changed=??? No it hasn't.

Items still randomly spawn, randomly favor one player or another, randomly become the most powerful thing on the stage, give an unfair advantage to fast characters (almost all top and high tier characters in each smash game are above average in movement speed), make the team characters broken, randomly cause players to have to camp and stall and run away if they truly want to do anything within the rules to win, and just create a scenario that isn't fun to play at a competitive level, and thus will inevitably lead in a huge falling out of the competitive community.

But hey, if you want that, more power to you, even though it won't happen because TO's want people to actually enjoy tournaments.

Lastly, the automatic bans are to make everything enjoyable and fair from day 1.

If something is banned is no longer-ban worthy, it is unbanned, including if items are balanced (which they aren't) and add depth (which they also won't).
Reading this has caused me physical illness. Holy crap you have no idea what you're talking about and your statements about items and certain characters are just blatantly wrong. Oh geez.
 

Zonderion

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Sure anyone CAN do anything, but I thought the argument here is figuring out what the majority of the competitive community WILL do, but as an above poster stated until we have confirmation that items can have fixed spawn points and times items will most likely never become a part of competitive Smash.

And I personally feel it's for the best. Smash in and of itself is already a deep enough fighter as it is. Artificially adding depth through items feels largely unnecessary.
The point I was making, is that we shouldn't be so quick to auto ban stages/items. As you and another poster mentioned, if items can have fixed spawn points and times, then it is feasible for them to be a part of competitive smash. Its not that Johnknight1 is wrong (which he probably isn't), but that its these types of people that have such a closed mind on the issue, we potentially lose viable options in the tournament scene before the game has even come out.
 

The Real Gamer

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The point I was making, is that we shouldn't be so quick to auto ban stages/items. As you and another poster mentioned, if items can have fixed spawn points and times, then it is feasible for them to be a part of competitive smash.
I agree items with set intervals/locations would add an entirely new dynamic to the concept of stage control.

I'm just of the opinion that they're unnecessary. More depth doesn't immediately equate to a superior fighting game in my eyes.

Its not that Johnknight1 is wrong (which he probably isn't), but that its these types of people that have such a closed mind on the issue, we potentially lose viable options in the tournament scene before the game has even come out.
I can see the arguments of both sides tbh. One group wants to keep their options open and allow the game to evolve naturally through trial and error while the other would rather have the game as fair/competitive as possible and as soon as possible by eliminating randomness and unfairness right from the get go.

I'm somewhere in the middle. While I do believe we should keep an open mind regarding the stage list I also think the community is experienced enough to be able to make proper judgement calls regarding factors that will blatantly ruin competitive play in one form or another (items w/o set respawn times/locations being one of them).

All I'm saying is that there's no right or wrong approach really, but for now we still don't know enough about the game to be able to take proper stances on this issue. Hell for all we know we might have the option to toggle where/when items spawn now but Sakurai hasn't officially revealed this info yet. We'll just have to wait and see.
 

Muster

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I do believe that the competitive aspect of smash is a bit locked down as it is, I hope it becomes a bit more lenient in smash 4, a few more stages being legal, and maybe even a legal item or two. We'll never know how the game will play and what will be considered OP until release, and maybe not even then.

Also, smash is probably the furthest fighting style from boxing there is. i mean seriously, it's like comparing tennis and billiards.
 
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JediLink

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Fixed item spawns and controlling the stage to control items isn't how I want to play Smash. This isn't Halo, guys. Two cents, etc.
 

Zonderion

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I agree items with set intervals/locations would add an entirely new dynamic to the concept of stage control.

I'm just of the opinion that they're unnecessary. More depth doesn't immediately equate to a superior fighting game in my eyes.

I can see the arguments of both sides tbh. One group wants to keep their options open and allow the game to evolve naturally through trial and error while the other would rather have the game as fair/competitive as possible and as soon as possible by eliminating randomness and unfairness right from the get go.

I'm somewhere in the middle. While I do believe we should keep an open mind regarding the stage list I also think the community is experienced enough to be able to make proper judgement calls regarding factors that will blatantly ruin competitive play in one form or another (items w/o set respawn times/locations being one of them).

All I'm saying is that there's no right or wrong approach really, but for now we still don't know enough about the game to be able to take proper stances on this issue. Hell for all we know we might have the option to toggle where/when items spawn now but Sakurai hasn't officially revealed this info yet. We'll just have to wait and see.
Thank you for this post. This is exactly it. We don't know enough about the game to make decisions one way or the other. My stance is the "wait and see game". More than likely, it will happen just like the past 3 Smash games where we have smaller neutral stages with items off. But to come to that conclusion before we even have the game, IMO, is having a closed mind.

Fixed item spawns and controlling the stage to control items isn't how I want to play Smash. This isn't Halo, guys. Two cents, etc.
Not every tournament will feature items (if items are even viable). So more than likely, you won't HAVE to play this way. Naturally, you can play how you want.
 

Substitution

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All stages shold be legal at the beginning. No bans without evidence, my 2 cents.
I don't think all stages should be starter, as there are some which can be banned for obvious reasons (such as Gerudo Valley).
 

~automatic

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Early into Melee's competitive life tournaments on the west coast had items on. Ken's first money match had items on (there's a mention of catching items out of a wavedash). There was also the TG5 items controversy where the east coast's best players were affected by item spawns. Brawl had its very own item and stage controversy with EVO's ruleset in 2008 (all grand finals matches had favorable spawns) after Ken lost the final set against CPU, a player who was outclassed by the losing player. Items have been tested and played with as have may stages. Some tournaments even feature side events with unconventional rules on for fun. Radical choices haven't been shunned by serious players, they just don't have a place in a fair and competitive setting.

To those who want to reform the way rule sets are made, think about the structure of current competitive rulesets. What do limits try to accomplish in terms of gameplay? Watch some Melee matches as well as Brawl matches from both community events and EVO 2008.
 

ndayday

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Early into Melee's competitive life tournaments on the west coast had items on. Ken's first money match had items on (there's a mention of catching items out of a wavedash). There was also the TG5 items controversy where the east coast's best players were affected by item spawns. Brawl had its very own item and stage controversy with EVO's ruleset in 2008 (all grand finals matches had favorable spawns) after Ken lost the final set against CPU, a player who was outclassed by the losing player. Items have been tested and played with as have may stages. Some tournaments even feature side events with unconventional rules on for fun. Radical choices haven't been shunned by serious players, they just don't have a place in a fair and competitive setting.

To those who want to reform the way rule sets are made, think about the structure of current competitive rulesets. What do limits try to accomplish in terms of gameplay? Watch some Melee matches as well as Brawl matches from both community events and EVO 2008.
Basically. Rules are what they are in Brawl/Melee because experience showed everyone what the most fair ways to play are. Things like stages are obv debated about but the usual "3 or 4 stock game with no items on a neutral stage" will be what most default to. Go ahead and play with items but unless they are completely different from the past 3 games they'll get banned.
 

Radius-86

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No one talked about rules outside of the game. I believe there are two, but one of them no longer applies:

1. No modified controllers.
2. TV requirements. Previous games required SDTVs or EDTVs (for component) because using an HDTV would upscale the input which would create lag. The Wii U supports every resolution, so this is no longer an issue (but you will still need a TV with good response time nonetheless).
 

guedes the brawler

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Items heavily lower the skill gap between players, and heavily increase the luck factor. Oh, they also change the focus of the fight... in fact, it stops being a fight and turns into a small race (or a fight for a headstart, tops)

Say, you have a guy who is a pro at smash, and one who is a total noob. The noob can win the fight, if he happens to land near a very powerful items enough times OR if the pro player gets interrupted, by for example, a bob omb spawing directly in front of his attack.

I remember one match i had with m friend in brawl, he played marth and managed to break my shield with Marth's neutral B. A golden hammer was right beside him, he picked it up, and a blast box spawned in front of him and he blew up. i won the match, but if items were off that situation wouldn't have happened. (though i admit that he could've chose to ignore the hammer).


Many items are too powerful for this suggestion to be even reasonable... but it's not like this discussion is worth anything. Items had their chance, and they proved to be the wrong choice. unless there is a big revamp on how they work, you can give up: it will never be the norm (which doesn't impede side-tournaments with items from happening).
 

Johnknight1

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Cause you're the only player that matters? You know what, you are right. Screw EVERY OTHER player that wants play differently from you. SCREW THEM!!!!
/end saracasm.
Not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that if you don't enter or plan on playing competitively in tournaments or hosting competitive tournaments, your opinion doesn't have an impact.

Think of it this way: In elections in America, only Americans can vote. In elections in Australia, only Australians can vote.

That is essentially what I'm saying.

If a competitive tournament player wants items legal, then by God they have an impact, and a right to that impact.

I'm just saying that random people who don't enter or plan on entering tournaments do not impact the tournament scene ruleset. They just don't.

Look at the Melee and Brawl BRoom; they consist only of TO's and players (and ex-TO's and players) of said games who make the rules. You don't have random low level players in there (at least I hope not).

The reason we do this is because tournament rules don't effect non-tournament players or TO's. It just doesn't. Therefore, their opinion carries no weight because of that.

I mean c'mon! Imagine if Australians could vote in American elections. They would only vote for the most pro-Australian candidates.
Edit: I didn't bother to read half of your post because of your improper netiquette. If you learn to respect people and their opinions, it probably wouldn't hurt your cause.
Clearly you don't know how to read. If you got anger out of my posts instead of my cut-the-crap straight-to-the-point posting, you read it wrong.

If anything, you're the one getting emotional. From what it sounds like, you don't have any competitive experience either, so I don't see why it bugs or, why it matters to you, or why it effects you (of course I could be wrong, and I am wrong).

If you don't want to read it again, fine. That's your choice. But to say I'm posting emotionally is just wrong. I'm getting straight to the point and throwing out facts a plenty. My only problem with my posts is I'm throwing too much out there, and, per usual, people like you don't want to respond to all the ground I cover (because I cover a lot because I know a lot from experience).
Reading this has caused me physical illness. Holy crap you have no idea what you're talking about and your statements about items and certain characters are just blatantly wrong. Oh geez.
If I'm so wrong, then please, point it out.

While I'm by no means a high level competitive player (I'm a mini-mini-mini-mini-mini-mini-mini-mini boss in NorCal at Melee, lol), and I'm by no means an items expert, I have tried items out in friendlies at high levels against top players in Melee (and a few times in Brawl back when I played it), and I do have a wealth of knowledge at using them.

I'm sure I overrate a character or two or underrate a character or two with items, but I guarantee you I know more about item play than everyone who is promoting item play in this tournament.

After all, I doubt any of them have faced current or form top 10 all-world players in items matches in any of the 3 games (let alone all 3), or even current or former top 10 all-world players, period.

But to say it caused you to be physically ill is disrespectful, rude, and uncalled for. All your post did what degrade my opinion without any evidence.

The fact you got 2 likes shows how many butthurt people we have here. Apparently having a different opinion is bad.
 
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lobotheduck21

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ugh, as a casual player, items are cheap, why shoulI loose a match because I'm charging up a shadow ball and a bomb-omb spawns in it
 

Swamp Sensei

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To sum John's main point up...

Getting rid of items is done in an effort to make the match as even as humanly possible.

That's all there is to it.

And he's right.

Imagine a race.

Both competitors are fast, have a lot of endurance and have a desire to win in a fair race.

That's all good.

The race starts and both people race to the finish.

All of a sudden. One person steps into new shoes that make him faster in the middle of the race! While the other person trips on a rock that appeared out of nowhere.

Those events would certainly skew results. The person who tripped might be faster but because of that rock, he lost. Meanwhile, the person who got the shoes might be slower, but because of the shoes, he won.

It added a level of chaos in the race that skewed the results.

This is what happens with items.

They skew the results and add a sense of chaos to them.

Sure, there are other chaotic things that happen in the race. The person may be having a great day or a bad day for example, and that can affect the race. (For the smash equivalent, think G&W's Judge or Luigi's Green Missile). But we have little to no control over them.

I can't give myself a good day, but I can make sure there aren't rocks or magic sneakers in the way.

To summarize, items are banned to make sure the results are dependent on mainly one thing.

Skill.

And what do tournaments do?

They show who is the most skilled.
 
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Johnknight1

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Honestly this thread is why we need competitive dedicated mods and/or boards for Smash for the Wii U and 3DS.

There is nothing in this thread but pure chaos, and tons of people who know very little of what they're talking about, who aren't involved in the competitive scene (or plan on being in the competitive) telling others how competitive play should be.

Listen, if you aren't a tournament going player or tournament host (or planning to be one), you don't really have a "right" to dictate how the ruleset or competitive etiquette goes.

You have a God-given right to speak your opinion, but c'mon! The standard tournament ruleset for each Smash game is decided upon by the BRooms of each respective game (consisting of players and TO's of lots of experience) and by TO's! Not people with no experience!!! (tournaments and tournament rules don't effect you)

It's just a joke what the competitive topics in the Smash for the Wii U and 3DS Boards have become, and continue to be.

===

Back in the pre-Brawl release days, the Brawl Boards were littered with Melee competitive players. Nowadays Smooth Criminal, Eternal Phoenix Fire, and I are probably the only 3 competitive players who actively post here (all of us play Melee and maybe Project M competitively, but probably nothing), and none of us are anything special or exceptional.

Heck in NorCal I've made it out of pools once out of almost a dozen times in tournaments (doesn't help when pools are stacked!). :rotfl:

(should've made it at Rule 6, although I'd have face freaking MANGO, but that's a story for another day)

What happened to all the Smash 64, Melee, and Brawl players who play competitively=??? Why don't they post here=???

Did some cult-ish "new wave" players scare them off=??? Seriously, what happened=??? I can't comprehend how no other competitive players post here anymore.
All stages shold be legal at the beginning. No bans without evidence, my 2 cents.
Past history, understanding of how stages, competitive smash, the functionality of stages in competitive smash, the effects of stages in the results of competitive smash, and the results and match length of stages in competitive smash and how all that stuff I just mentioned (and more) works is "evidence".

HugS (the best Melee Samus ever) (shoutouts to Hugs for being so nice to me at my first major tournament over 4 years ago) made a good thread (yet another person that was basically hunted by an angry mob until they left here) about it a while back that got buried by stupidity and ignored.

And if you want to know what "1 year of your life back" means, look at the Brawl ruleset history. It's sad to see how many stages were legal initially, and sad to remember how awful some of those matches on those stages were.
 

XStarWarriorX

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Honestly this thread is why we need competitive dedicated mods and/or boards for Smash for the Wii U and 3DS.



Back in the pre-Brawl release days, the Brawl Boards were littered with Melee competitive players. Nowadays Smooth Criminal, Eternal Phoenix Fire, and I are probably the only 3 competitive players who actively post here (all of us play Melee and maybe Project M competitively, but probably nothing), and none of us are anything special or exceptional.
Hai there make that 4, everyone always forgets about me. Socal ftw. (Though I lurked in pre-brawl for obvious reasons.... *shudders* )

Also you guys always hang in that super secret place, so make that 1 :troll:

But I agree we need some competitive minded mods when the game comes closer to release.

Also, facebook happened, that's why there isn't many around here anymore.
 

FlareHabanero

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I do think people with experience with this type of thing should be the ones that have a say on what goes on. Hell, even players who know at least the basics of competitive play or at least know common sense should be the ones that have a say on things. Not people that clearly don't have the experience, nor do they have the intention to do so.
 
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