What are the metagames faults?

[Coffee™]

Just wondering what everyone thinks of the current Platinum metagame in general and what you think could be done to improve it, or just anything in general wheter it be new clauses or anything.

 

[Deleted member]

oh man where to start. *enter theorymon mode*

I'll just jump in and say that I think platinum, along with a few quirks, ruins DPP competitive play. You can observe this within 15 minutes on shoddy, where nearly every team is-

aerodactyl/azelf
scizor
heatran
skymin
rotom/zapdos/suicune
DDmence/zapdos

note that 3 of those have no replacements. This effectively fills the format of:

Suicide Lead/ScizorTran/Skymin/Wall/Filler

Now more than ever, winning is decided by the team you make, rather than player talent. I have discussed this with JesiahTEG, VIL, and a little with aldaron.

I think the best (most fun and competitive and player talent based) would be DP without platinum moves, no SR or focus sash, and legalized Garchomp. I think that a large part of Garchomp success was from SR support, and that in a format such as this one, the viability that returns to walls, along with crippling Chomps KO ability somewhat, would allow him to function quite normally in OU play.

Hit me up on AIM @ MycatgoesMow, I would like to discuss this with you much, much more.

 

[Coffee™]

I've added you on aim. As for your comment, you have to realise the more pokemon are added, the more the game is simply going be about team matchups.

Personally I also feel a no SR/Focus Sash metagame would me more competitive, but you have to ask yourself under what context either should be banned, since the term "more competitive" is fairly subjective and not everyone will agree with such a decision.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Im definitely in agreement with Mow about just about everything(I don't think Focus Sash really ruins the metagame though) but I'll take it a step further. With Suicide Leads sacrificing themselves just to put up Stealth Rocks the new Rotom Formes become a standard alongside them to keep the Rocks on the field. No spinner in the game can beat Rotom 1v1 so spinning becomes impossible. This stagnates the game further to the point where you can only use pokemon that take SE damage from Stealth Rocks as Cleaners/Revenge Killers and pokemon like Moltres who could actually impact the metagame quite a bit becomes almost unusable(unless you're me XD)

As of now I'd go so far as to say the best team you could ever make(and about 60% of all teams on shoddy) are.

Azelf/Aerodactyl
Scizor
Scarftran
Rotom
Skymin/Zapdos
DDMence/Zapdos

Re-adding Garchomp would in fact even out the metagame quite a bit. Scizor would still be strong but it couldn't threaten to sweep entire teams as Garchomp could take it 1v1. Heatran would no longer rule the metagame as it can no longer switch in every time Scizor is threatened. DDMence would still be strong(and arguably always has been the better of the two pokemon) but would no longer have an easy time setting up. Zapdos would eat a ****(I hate that thing now)

Removal of Stealth Rocks would help as well but for more than the "More types will be usable" thing. With no Stealth Rocks leads would become more than "Taunt/Stealth Rocks/Die." Instead you'd have more dynamic leads that could be used later in the game if needed. I guess this is where Mow's idea of no Sash comes in as without Sash Leads you could eliminate Suicide Leads altogether(No Spikes Froslass and such) meaning you'd have to rely on actual skill and prediction to set up rather than a "Lol, I can't die" item.

 

[karthik_king]

Also the self destruct mechanism is stupid since the computer always wins. And there are way too many pokemon which overshadow great pokes. Articuno is a legend that is in UU I think that this is ******** how a legendary just manages to sink into UU territory

 

[JesiahTEG]

C'mon guys, we have a really good thread here that people can use to better themselves and discuss the metagame...No one else has anything to say? Doesn't anyone play this game? lol

 

[M.K]

Also the self destruct mechanism is stupid since the computer always wins. And there are way too many pokemon which overshadow great pokes. Articuno is a legend that is in UU I think that this is ******** how a legendary just manages to sink into UU territory

We are talking about Player vs. Player, here.
Articuno is in UU due to a crappy movepool and the overwhelming threat of Stealth Rock.
Stealth Rock is a HUGE burden -_-

 

[Pink Reaper]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48528


LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

 

[jigglyppuff8]

C'mon guys, we have a really good thread here that people can use to better themselves and discuss the metagame...No one else has anything to say? Doesn't anyone play this game? lol

No, most of us stateside don't own this game at the moment.

 

[JesiahTEG]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48528


LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

I don't get what's so funny lol.

 

[Pink Reaper]

It was the first team I saw in the RMT forum on Smogon and it was Suicide Lead/Zapdos/Salamence/Rotom/Heatran XD The only odd thing was that instead of having Scizor he had Metagross and instead of having Scarftran he's using some random *** utility tran(Which is more than likely just banking off the hope that his opponent wont realize its not a Scarftran >_>) I found this hilarious.

 

[Zook]

Stealth Rocks and Scizor are ruining Platinum for me. (edit: by 'Platinum,' I meant 'Pokemon. Heh.)

Stealth Rocks completely turned Pokemon upside-down. Once-usable Pokemon that used to be immune to traps (flying-types) now get utterly ***** up the *** by "pointy rocks" that act like guards at a highly-selective club- Club Standard Play. I've even recorded a conversation at this club.

*Moltres walks up*

Stealth Rocks: No way man, sorry. Go away.

Moltres: Why? With the introduction of new DP moves and the switch between Physical and Special, I've become a very viable pokemon in Standard Play!

SR: Not while we're around, *******. Same goes for your buddy Charizard and every other fragile Pokemon.

Yanmega: Can I come in?

SR: Sure, but you'll only amount to a suicide lead.

Y: Alright, better than Moltres.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Hold on, is there something I'm missing here? Did Stealth Rock get like way better in Platinum or something? You guys are making it seem like SR is this new revolutionary move. It's been around for a while now unless I'm missing something.

 

[jigglyppuff8]

Yeah, what ^ said, I thought Rotom had that covered now.

 

[Zook]

Hold on, is there something I'm missing here? Did Stealth Rock get like way better in Platinum or something? You guys are making it seem like SR is this new revolutionary move. It's been around for a while now unless I'm missing something.

People have figured out that Ghost-types completely wall Spinners. There used to be a way to get rid of SR, but now you can't.

Nearly every team I've seen in the past few weeks on Shoddy carries a Rotom-a, which destroys any Spinner I throw at it. Tentacruel, Forretress, Claydol, Armaldo, none of them can scratch the new Rotom forme.

 

[M.K]

People have figured out that Ghost-types completely wall Spinners. There used to be a way to get rid of SR, but now you can't.

Nearly every team I've seen in the past few weeks on Shoddy carries a Rotom-a, which destroys any Spinner I throw at it. Tentacruel, Forretress, Claydol, Armaldo, none of them can scratch the new Rotom forme.

Urk....which one is Rotom - A?

 

[karthik_king]

Exactly my point. Also ghosts are getting much more dangerous since psychic is no longer super effective against it.
RBY-Ghost does not has no effect against Psychic Psychic is super effective vs Ghost
GSCRSE-Both super effective vs each other
DPPt- Ghost over Psychic Psychic normal hit against Ghosts

What the hell is going on?

 

[0RLY]

Karthik, that's because Gastly, Haunter, and Gengar is also part Poison. Poison has always been weak to Psychic. Ghost has always been neutral to Psychic.

10 epic fails

Rotom-a = Rotom-appliance

All of the Rotom forms are the same. Their only differences are their special moves. If they have that attack, then it's obvious which form they are.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Basically what I'm getting at is...

Who the heck cares about SR? It's not even that good let alone good enough to like freak out over.

 

[M.K]

Basically what I'm getting at is...

Who the heck cares about SR? It's not even that good let alone good enough to like freak out over.

Stealth Rock takes 20 + Pokemon OUT of the Metagame. It limits what you CAN and CAN'T use down to just 10-15 Pokemon.
I mean, Garchomp did this too, and they banned him....why can't they ban SR too?

 

[JesiahTEG]

Stealth Rock takes 20 + Pokemon OUT of the Metagame. It limits what you CAN and CAN'T use down to just 10-15 Pokemon.
I mean, Garchomp did this too, and they banned him....why can't they ban SR too?

What? I played with a Gyarados and a Salamence on my team and ***** everyone. Literally everyone. AND I didn't use SR once on my team either. It's really overrated.

 

[Pink Reaper]

What? I played with a Gyarados and a Salamence on my team and ***** everyone. Literally everyone. AND I didn't use SR once on my team either. It's really overrated.

No its not. SR is far from overrated, in fact if anything its probably underrated. With a single move, in one turn you've basically guaranteed that you will never have to worry about a large number of pokemon ever, you can turn potential 3HKO's into 2HKO's, force your opponent from switching multiple times, destroy every focus sash user who isn't a lead and you don't even have to try to do it. SR is probably overpowered for the most part not because it's too strong(although it is a bit too strong >_>) its that it's the easiest thing in the game to set up. Spikes takes 3 turns, Toxic Spikes take three turns, Stealth Rocks takes ONE TURN. And it hits everything in the game(Bar the Clefaries) Even if it only does 3.75% to Lucario you at least know it can't possibly be using a focus sash now. And if it recovers that damage you know it's using Leftovers. It stops strategies, gives information, completely destroys certain pokemon(Moltres could so be OU ) it's too good. And lets not forget, Spikes can be avoided by fliers and levitaters and Toxic Spikes can be absorbed(or even used to your advantage with Guts) But nothing stops Stealth Rocks, nothing beats stealth rocks, and with the new Rotom Formes in play, nothing Spins stealth rocks.

 

[JesiahTEG]

No its not. SR is far from overrated, in fact if anything its probably underrated. With a single move, in one turn you've basically guaranteed that you will never have to worry about a large number of pokemon ever, you can turn potential 3HKO's into 2HKO's, force your opponent from switching multiple times, destroy every focus sash user who isn't a lead and you don't even have to try to do it. SR is probably overpowered for the most part not because it's too strong(although it is a bit too strong >_>) its that it's the easiest thing in the game to set up. Spikes takes 3 turns, Toxic Spikes take three turns, Stealth Rocks takes ONE TURN. And it hits everything in the game(Bar the Clefaries) Even if it only does 3.75% to Lucario you at least know it can't possibly be using a focus sash now. And if it recovers that damage you know it's using Leftovers. It stops strategies, gives information, completely destroys certain pokemon(Moltres could so be OU ) it's too good. And lets not forget, Spikes can be avoided by fliers and levitaters and Toxic Spikes can be absorbed(or even used to your advantage with Guts) But nothing stops Stealth Rocks, nothing beats stealth rocks, and with the new Rotom Formes in play, nothing Spins stealth rocks.

I think the problem is that Stealth Rock isn't AMAZING like everyone makes it out to be, it's just that it's popular. People see that it's good and everyone uses it. It's because the Pokemon community is a lot more centralized than the Smash community. When a group of people use something, everyone does because it's what's good. In this case, it's Smogon. Whether or not people realize it, what Smogon does or says goes. Every good player is from Smogon. They all use Stealth Rock. When people see them using Stealth Rock, they use it.

Look at Cactuar in Smash. He plays Fox and Fox has lasers. He's top 5 foxes in the world right now. He doesn't use lasers. Why? Because he rather just attack and do damage. Lasers ruin half of the characters in the game, like Stealth Rock does. But what's better, lasering or attacking smart?

I was taught Pokemon by Umbreon, not Smogon. I listened to what he said and used his ideas. He never uses Stealth Rock so neither did I. When I went to play good players after getting good, players like Husk, Veteran in Love, Brawley and others...They spent their first turn setting up Stealth Rock and I spent my first turn bringing them down to 20%. When I switch in a Pokemon vs them, I take 12.5% damage. When they switch in on me, they get OHKO'd or 2HKO'd. Is that a fair trade for me? Hell yes.

You don't need Stealth Rock. If you know what you're doing, it really is overrated compared to the many options that you have. That's how I feel at least.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I think the problem is that Stealth Rock isn't AMAZING like everyone makes it out to be, it's just that it's popular. People see that it's good and everyone uses it. It's because the Pokemon community is a lot more centralized than the Smash community. When a group of people use something, everyone does because it's what's good. In this case, it's Smogon. Whether or not people realize it, what Smogon does or says goes. Every good player is from Smogon. They all use Stealth Rock. When people see them using Stealth Rock, they use it.

Look at Cactuar in Smash. He plays Fox and Fox has lasers. He's top 5 foxes in the world right now. He doesn't use lasers. Why? Because he rather just attack and do damage. Lasers ruin half of the characters in the game, like Stealth Rock does. But what's better, lasering or attacking smart?

I was taught Pokemon by Umbreon, not Smogon. I listened to what he said and used his ideas. He never uses Stealth Rock so neither did I. When I went to play good players after getting good, players like Husk, Veteran in Love, Brawley and others...They spent their first turn setting up Stealth Rock and I spent my first turn bringing them down to 20%. When I switch in a Pokemon vs them, I take 12.5% damage. When they switch in on me, they get OHKO'd or 2HKO'd. Is that a fair trade for me? Hell yes.

You don't need Stealth Rock. If you know what you're doing, it really is overrated compared to the many options that you have. That's how I feel at least.

How does that switch work for you when Azelf explodes in your face? I mean really, you threaten switches on things that are supposed to die anyways? Also, how do you OHKO/2HKO them? Don't you have to set up for that, which taunt destroys? Im confused here.

 

[JesiahTEG]

No. I'm talking about in the game. Draco Meteor OHKO's mad stuff. If I expect a Steel I Fire Blast. If I expect Heatran I Hydro Pump. If I expect Blissey I Brick Break. Gyarados' Aqua Tail with Life Orb @ Adamant OHKO's a lot of things. My whole team is designed to OHKO something on the switch, or force them into a 2HKO or another immediate switch. Also, if Azelf explodes why do I care. I lose a Pokemon, so does he. Chances are my Pokes are better than his anyways. Also, there are a lot of ways to deal w/ exploding Azelf. I wouldn't mind losing a Pokemon though.

If you want I can show you a match to give you a better idea.

Why are you awake? LOL

 

[Pink Reaper]

Im always awake. Smogon? Shoddy Server, Im ThePinkReaper(cus im unoriginal)

Edit: BTW, the explosion negates the "2hko on the switch" since there is no switch, at which point it comes down to luck on whoever brings out the better pokemon. Your gyara might be good but it loses if your opponent brings in Rotom.

 

[Bobbery]

Stealth rock pretty much makes an opening for many (sometimes mixed) sweepers where they use an attack that would normally 2HKO and the rocks turns it to a OHKO. My favorite example of this is a mixed Crawdaunt. It's great and relies heavily on stealth rock to OHKO many walls in UU.

I've pretty much stopped playing standard because of platinum. I hated Heatran and now I hate him more than ever. Scizor isn't that cool anymore, and the new rotoms are a huge annoyance to spinners. Meh.

 

[ss118]

The amount of Trick users is really getting on my nerves. Like Metagross really needed something else to **** up his counters. >_>

Skymin also gets on my nerves with his endless stream of hax that seems to take place when I play against it.

What I do like is all the Clef's getting Endeavor