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What are Ike's weaknesses and what can be patched?

Rango the Mercenary

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Ike's most common weaknesses include:

1) His DSmash is useless.

2) His recovery is easy to beat and exploit. Quick Draw does not have a big, frontal hitbox, leaving it susceptible to moves, like Donkey Kong's Bair. Aether is spiked by any character who has a Dair meteor smash.

3) Every move he makes is an overcommitment. If you didn't autocancel your Fair or Bair properly, even from range, expect to be punished.

4) Ike lacks solid punishes from afar. It's too easy for opponents to abuse autocancels and unsafe moves solely to bait Ike into attempting a punish, block it, and punish him instead.

5) He has no solid upward kills. Characters, like Rosalina, Cloud, Zero Suit Samus, Donkey Kong, Sheik, and Bowser are known for killing from the top. For example, if Delfino Plaza and Halberd were still legal, both would prove detrimental for Ike and he may not have the tier status he does simply because they could counterpick either of those stages, or simply go to Town & City to make the finish. Even though Ike has USmash and UTilt, both are "hard reads" that can be punished very hard. In addition, some of the aforementioned characters, notably Rosalina and DK, kill from the top at percents that beat out Ike's USmash. Ike also has UThrow into Uair, but it only works on very few characters, and Nair generally isn't powerful enough to make this confirm.

6) Among the worst Counter in the game (Frame 9, compare to Marth's Frame 6, Corrin's Frame 7, and Roy's Frame 8). Only 1 frame faster than Palutena's.

7) No landing options. Mario's USmash easily passes through Ike's Nair and Bair. Characters can simply run up and mixup intangible hitboxes, powershields, or dashgrabs. Any move Ike uses can be punished. Compare to Mario again, who is known for Bairing people and getting away with it for free.

8) No aerial defense. Captain Falcon can do Uair combos into Fair or continue the mixup. Rosalina and Mario also juggle him. In other words, he's combo food. He lacks a fast attack that can get him out of a juggle.

9) Mediocre "fast defense" options. Rushdown types have no fear going in on him if he's within range. Marth, Mario, Donkey Kong, and Bowser have "get out of jail free" cards with Up B to get them out of trouble quickly.

10) Lacks options using specials in neutral. Eruption is meant for edgeguarding, Quick Draw is highly punishable, Aether is slow and meant for recovery and retreat, and Counter is slow. Most characters can utilize their specials in neutral and in the air. This hurts his options when attacking characters, like Diddy Kong and R.O.B., using their item projectiles against them.

So the next question is, how could Ike be patched without making him broken? I have a few proposals.

1) Give him back his DTilt range. It was nerfed, but its return will keep players from dashing in past his disjoint, like Pit's dash attack. The return of its full range will provide an ample spacing move for Ike, keeping enemies off of him, as well as giving him further range to punish out of shield against disjointed characters, like Cloud.

2) Quick Draw becomes faster and harder to punish. A move that does only 6 damage and starts on Frame 16 is not balanced at all. If hit hits a shield, he's fully susceptible to a hard punish, like a Smash. There is virtually no point to using this move besides to recover and land-cancel on platforms.

3) Aether becomes faster. Not quite as fast as the custom variation, but enough to where it's a surprise for characters making them attempt to dunk Ike with Dair or even FLUDD him.

4) Counter becomes faster. Again, Roy is frame 8 and Corrin is frame 7. Since he's not Marth, perhaps it wouldn't be fair to go straight to Frame 6. However, Frame 9 is way too late to have a practical Counter.

5) Uthrow Uair confirms. Bowser has one, Donkey Kong has one. This would help level the playing field on stages with low ceilings.

6) Faster dash and/or faster dash attack.

7) Bair gets a slightly larger frontal hitbox. Since it already has one, lengthening it won't be a big deal. At Frame 7, this could be pivotal in escaping from juggles.

8) Widen the sweetspot on Dair. 9 times out of 10, Captain Falcon's Dair will spike. And most of the time, Ike's Dair tends to sourspot. You have to hit it precisely.

It's really hard to think of anything else he needs. None of this will change the game, but should another patch come and players find that Ike once again (by the grace of the holy spirits) got buffed, we know what to look for that will help him, and which buffs won't affect his meta and leave him to sink further down the tier list.
 

PyroTakun

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At this point having U-Throw to U-Air confirm and the Brawl D-Air would be enough buffs for me, especially the Brawl D-Air. We'd still get juggled easily, but at least we'd have a lingering hitbox to throw out below us and the spike would land more often.
 
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Arrei

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0. At position 0 because wtf why are Aether and Dair still so bad? It says a lot when even stall-then-fall Dairs have more utility than Ike's garbage of a spike. Under what design metric did they decide to give a character without particularly stellar air mobility a tiny tipper to work with, then decide to take away his lingering hitbox AND give Cloud one that spikes better and lasts forever? And in Aether's case, there's precedence in adjusting ledge snaps with Bowser's new ability to snap backwards out of Fortress, so there's always hope they'll just let it ledge snap at long last.

1. Ike's Uthrow Uair does feel like they intended for him to have a kill combo, yet didn't commit to it before realizing it was a good way to make slow characters be feared in close quarters. As said, characters like Bowser, Donkey Kong, ROB, and Robin have one, while still having a plethora of other damage-racking options granted to them, so it really seems like they ought to finetune Ike's some more.

2. We've covered how Dsmash is inexcusably bad, especially when compared to other sword characters'. That said, Dsmash is bad for a lot of characters and needs to be used sparingly anyway. I think we could use a faster Dsmash with less kill power, if only to have an option against crossups besides turn-around moves. Ike already has a wide bevy of kill moves, but he could really use something against opponents who just roll through him.

3. I think Counter is fine. It previously was one of the worst counters, beating only Palutena's, but its knockback buff was pretty significant. Its startup isn't as important as it might sound IMO, as in practical play counters that aren't called Witch Time can really only be used after baiting out a predicted move, and it's also capable of killing at the edges off minimum strength hits starting from 100% on the lighter characters. If I have it right, only Counter Surge and high aura Double Teams can kill at similar ranges from weak attacks. And despite its slower startup, it has better active frames and FAFs than most other counters, giving a less punishable range of time.

4. Dtilt doesn't need more range, I don't think - what it does need, especially after Corrin got a similar Dtilt with faster startup that pops opponents up for combos at almost all percents, is an improvement to its followup ability. Currently all we can get out of it is one aerial at mid percents. At low percents it can't get even that, and at high percents it sends them too high without ever becoming a kill move, and Ike doesn't have the air control to chase opponents for long. It needs an adjustment to its hitstun and its angle, as currently it has a tendency to be too unreliable for how little mileage we get out of it otherwise. Giving it less endlag would be nice too.

5. As far as Quick Draw changes go, I think the only improvements that would really be patchable are improvements to its frame data and making it not go helpless on hit. It needs to get its Brawl endlag back when not hitting anyone, so Ike has a mixup option for approaching. After hitting anyone, Ike needs to get out of the endlag much faster. Maybe we could get followups out of it then. Buffs to its damage would be nice as well though not necessary with the preceding improvements, though there is no reason a move with such slow startup should only do 6% damage. And it's based on his critical hit animation, so why is it so feeble?!

6. Rather than faster ground speed, I think Ike could use faster air acceleration more. Higher jump height too, perhaps. They've been making him a very aerial-oriented fighter, so better air movement would really improve his game plan. helping him chase down opponents and maneuver out of the disadvantage state a little better.
 
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Rango the Mercenary

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At this point having U-Throw to U-Air confirm and the Brawl D-Air would be enough buffs for me, especially the Brawl D-Air. We'd still get juggled easily, but at least we'd have a lingering hitbox to throw out below us and the spike would be spike would land more often.
Completely agree. Then we'd have the Bowser and DK combos and could throw Rosalina's poison back at her on Town & City.

All of Arrei Arrei 's points could also point to the buff we need. But any of the mentioned are better than one of his aerials getting another percent increase. It really comes down to the practicality of his special moves, greater use of his Dair and Uair, and his maneuverability.
 

Mario766

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Increase d-air lingering frames to Brawl level

Counter is fine, it's slow but has less lag, and lasts longer on counter frames, it's very strong too. Good trade off.

Aether should have either a larger super armor window, or be faster. Not fast enough to do things like OoS Aether *That'd be silly* but fast enough that you can't get beaten out by dropzone aerials.

QD horizontal hitbox and damage increased. It'll still have a diagonal issue, but the move will be able to beat out things and be a real punish for bad edgeguards. I shouldn't hit Mario and still get caped.

Decrease KB on up-throw or speed up up air slightly.

Increases ability to combo into a killing move, but also sets up for up throw up-air slightly later *If up throw KB was reduced*. Ike keeps his combos, but his killing ability gets better.

N-Air hitbox slightly increased/faster.

N-Air is very weak as a spacing tool but a fantastic combo starter. It needs to be better to be thrown out, like Cloud's N-Air.
 

HeavyLobster

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The best and most likely Ike buff would be for Cloud to get nerfed, especially Limit Cross Slash, as that move alone overrides any advantage when it comes to kill power Ike might have otherwise, and right now he's overshadowed in most respects. Incoming Bayo nerfs won't hurt him much either. Buffs to certain undertuned moves like DSmash and Dair would be nice but wouldn't really affect his tourney viability too much. Ike's issue is that he's scraping the "heavy ceiling," that is, he's a good, well-designed powerhouse character with appropriate powerhouse strengths and weaknesses, but is mainly held back by the fact that in order to win tourneys, he has to go through characters who do not have similarly balanced strengths and weaknesses, but are above average to amazing at basically everything, and so he won't have a sizable national presence so long as other powerhouse characters who are faster, safer, and better at getting out of trouble exist.
 

Rango the Mercenary

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Nerfing Cloud would make it harder for Cloud to easily beat Ike's even to tough matchups. It doesn't change the fact that Ike would still struggle against them.
 

TTTTTsd

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Nerfing Cloud would make it harder for Cloud to easily beat Ike's even to tough matchups. It doesn't change the fact that Ike would still struggle against them.
Pretty much this. Ike's weaknesses and problems as a character don't disappear with Cloud gone. All that disappears is Cloud which is probably the actual ulterior motive.

If Cloud was suddenly gutted and/or made significantly worse then people would just flock to Corrin who is pretty much the next best thing. In fact, that's the character I've seen the most Ike mains switch to!
 
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ReroRero

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Making Uthrow more consistent, it can be hindered by rage and DI can screw it up too.

Quick Draw should be used like something to increase Ike mobility in neutral and also removing totally is helpless state would make his recovery way less predictable.

Also some of his move should have way less start-up. I think of Ftilt, this move hits for good damage but has a 13 frame start-up, which is crazy (the slowest ftilt in the game ?). Also like you said making a aerial way more faster can make him less of a combo food.
 

HeavyLobster

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Pretty much this. Ike's weaknesses and problems as a character don't disappear with Cloud gone. All that disappears is Cloud which is probably the actual ulterior motive.

If Cloud was suddenly gutted and/or made significantly worse then people would just flock to Corrin who is pretty much the next best thing. In fact, that's the character I've seen the most Ike mains switch to!
Corrin definitely feels natural for Ike mains and is an easy switch to make. Not convinced that Corrin is better though, as Ike's grab game is much better, he has better mobility, and has an actually threatening Dash Attack, while Corrin has better frame data and combos. Imo Corrin is a sidegrade more suited to people who played Ike more as a spacing character, while Ike I think is better for people who want to play as a power character. The similar playstyle has definitely cut into his playerbase though.
 

Nidtendofreak

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You're overplaying Ike's disadvantages Rango (Also I'm pretty sure Ike's counter actually activates at the same time as Marth and Lucina's, just that the actual swing itself is slower but stronger due to it getting buffed a few patches back) buuuuut:

1) Slightly buff Uthrow to make it more consistent/the combo ranges larger. Increase damage by 1% (for more hitstun), lower the base knockback/knockback growth accordingly.

2) Make Jab 1 Frame 3, adjust Jab 2 and 3 accordingly to make sure it still comboed.

3) Buff Ike's standing grab range, because it sucks which conflicts with his "spacing/grappler" design he has now.

4) Give the Dair its Brawl lingering frames back.

5) Make Quickdraw do more damage, don't touch the knockback (which would increase its knockback accordingly due to higher damage).

That's all Ike "needs", and even then the Jab changes are iffy for being in the "need" range. Realistically he only "needs" 4 changes, the other one would seriously help and be game changing level stuff potentially.

Ike is one of the very few heavy weights with a good recovery range, and is certainly the only good swordsmen not named Meta Knight to have an above average recovery. Because that's what it is: above average. Look at how many characters only have their Up B as an option. Ike's doing pretty well in the recovery department particularly when you add in his heavy weight (and thus less time) and good max air speed. Its up to the Ike player to mix it up yes, and its not perfect for obvious reasons... Ike would be stupid if his recovery was any better. I'd like aether to reverse snap, but it would be busted between the spike hitbox and 2-frame ledge snap stuff.

He's not supposed to have good ways to cover himself while landing. Look at the sword users. That's an intentional design weakness among them, its not going to change. Only Cloud breaks the mould and even then its only kinda. His Dair has a huge hitbox, but if you can attack diagonally he's getting juggled. I only listed bringing back the lingering frames because well, it kinda looks stupid as it is atm, and the lingering frames would only have a minimal impact on his ability to get back down. Just enough to get him in line with the other swordsmen in terms of options. Would be a very junior version of Cloud's Dair realistically.

Like wise, he's supposed to be juggle food. Again, look at other swordsmen. They don't have good anti-juggle options. Nor do they have good "get off of me" options, not even Cloud. Its an intentional design. Its harder to get in initially, the reward is you get to stay in longer.

Dtilt's range suggestion can be done with perfect pivoting. Which Ike should be doing more in general. Advancing PP Dtilt, retreating PP Ftilt, spacing Utilt with PP. Makes all three of those moves better.

Now for "nice to have but not needed" changes?

1) Dsmash faster for both hits

2) Fsmash gets its "hit behind Ike's head" hitbox from Brawl back. Increased base knockback. Faster start up. Brawl sound effect back.

3) Usmash loses its sourspot, damage inline with the rest of the move. More lingering frames to the move to catch airdodges/spot dodges/rolls with

4) Eruption gets an even bigger hitbox. More edgeguarding plz.

5) Dair gets full hitbox spike back

6) Ftilt starts faster.

7) Bair gets a larger hitbox in front and in width.

8) Dthrow becomes a better kill throw. (Imagine it with Ike's rage potential! This would actually be my number one choice for this section. Would be a very nice stock cap method, fits with his playing style.)

9) Utilt hits higher above him.

10) Fthrow/Bthrow comboing into Dash Attack.
 

Rango the Mercenary

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Pretty much this. Ike's weaknesses and problems as a character don't disappear with Cloud gone. All that disappears is Cloud which is probably the actual ulterior motive.

If Cloud was suddenly gutted and/or made significantly worse then people would just flock to Corrin who is pretty much the next best thing. In fact, that's the character I've seen the most Ike mains switch to!
Another problem is, truth be told, I really enjoy Cloud's playstyle. If I'm aiming to win a national and now neither Cloud nor Ike can cut it, I switch to Mario. But after that, my pool of enjoyable, viable characters sharply decreases.
 

Yoh

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I wanna have back dair frames from brawl, aether grabs the ledge backwards and remove those dumb weak hits on his smashes and give them a little less lag perhaps, a little bit more standing grab range, then Ike would be just fine for me.

Ah and perhaps buff uairs damage and make adjustments to the knockback then.
 
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Mario766

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Honestly what we lack are

Reliable OoS options

Fast get off me moves/combo breakers.

Landing options


and we'll likely never get them.
 

Macedonian

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Honestly I think recovery is the single biggest factor holding him back. An improvement in those regards would be amazing. Man if Ike could even grab the ledge backwords it could help a bit.

But other then that id like to mention somthing nobody else in the thread has. Uptilt is so slow it makes for a poor anti air and only a hard read kill option. So I just want a bit faster ftilt and uptilt
 
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