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Well spaced and well timed Bair.

ArcPoint

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
1,183
Location
NorCal, California.
Assuming that you're doing it from a FH or a SH, whichever, and moving away. FF is optional.

Figure out how to punish it, and which moves outright beat it. Yes this is option vs option, so I want frame date, powershield stuff, range, everything. Let's figure this out. This is serious business.

Go.
 

Ishiey

Mother Wolf
BRoomer
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
7,292
Location
Land's End (NorCal)
If PS'd, shieldstun is neglected. That means that bair has 9 frame block hit lag and if landing an extra 8 frames that he's open. OoS moves won't have to worry about the 7 frame shield drop time (5 if PS I think, not entirely sure...). Marth and MK upB OoS should do the trick, they have surprising range and come out frame 5.

Some calculations based off of my data (shield drop = 7 frames, PS shield drop = 5 frames, 9 frame BHL and 8 frame LL):

Stuff that works when PSd and assuming landing lag and shield drop: max 12 frames
Stuff that works when PSd and assuming landing lag OoS: max 17 frames (including jump time)
Stuff that works when not PSd and assuming landing lag and shield drop: max -3 frames (so basically they need to outpredict and hand out some secondary punishment)
Stuff that works when not PSd and assuming landing lag OoS: max 4 frames (including jump time)

...right?

So, for stuff that's not PSd, Wolf is safe. The fastest OoS moves that I know of are 5 frames (MK and Marth upB), so Wolf should be able to PS. If bair is PSd, you can probably be grabbed/dashgrabbed by most characters. Some quick dash attacks as well, and MAYBE something like Snake's ftilt/utilt if he walks forward a bit.

I'd still go with secondary punishment for bair though (lol I'm going to throw out that term so often now).

:059:
 

ArcPoint

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
1,183
Location
NorCal, California.
Alrighty, so if those moves would reach him then they'd hit frame-wise. But do they have enough range? If you retreat a bair on a PS, then I'm pretty sure that Marth and MK up B would NOT hit Wolf.

Is hitlag on both ends still applied to a Powershield?

And JJ, I want every single way you could possibly punish a well spaced, well timed bair.
 

Ishiey

Mother Wolf
BRoomer
Joined
May 20, 2008
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Land's End (NorCal)
If you're retreating with the slide I doubt anything would be able to get you, but... there's only so much room to retreat ._.

When you PS an attack, there is no block stun but you still suffer from block hit lag. I read it in a thread somewhere, idk where it is though...

:059:
 

ArcPoint

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
1,183
Location
NorCal, California.
If you're retreating with the slide I doubt anything would be able to get you...

:005:
And I'm wondering what will =)

Obviously if you don't have enough room to slide then GG to your opponent. But yeah, part of being on the ledge means not being able to slide as much =/
 

castorpollux

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
2,502
why would you make a thread on how to beat wolf? I will not help in this abomination of a thread!!!
 

ArcPoint

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
1,183
Location
NorCal, California.
Awareness is key. I want to know what SHOULD punish bair and what SHOULD NOT be able to punish Bair. Helps me tackle matchups that much better. Plus I heard from a fairly decent player that Bair is nearly unpunishable, so I wanted to test that. And if it's true...well, you could just figure out how to consistently do well spaced bairs and then just predict their reactions to screw up your spacing and GG.

Edit: Also keep in mind that when you see the winner screen and Wolf isn't first, you lost, Wolf didn't =)
I'm sure many people know how to beat MK...but they don't know how to beat M2k. Except for Ally.
 

rvkevin

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
1,188
I'm not one for frame data, but this is my "limited" experience of playing against Wolf.

The way to get around Bair is dependent on the character type (Aerial, Grab, Projectile). Kirby, DDD, and GnW can combat Bair with their own and situationally: Uair. Wario and MK can diagonally zone and punish FHs with Uairs or Dairs, and SHs with Dairs. Snake and DDD can force a double jump by approaching with shield. Diddy can do something related to bananas. Note that these are ways to punish less than perfect Bairs; this should be seen more of a “Don’t do this/opponents strategy.” Well spaced Bairs are very difficult to punish, if you’re about to be horizontal to Wolf’s back, the best option is to retreat or air dodge through, unless you’re DDD and have a bigger Bair.


“Well, you could just figure out how to consistently do well spaced bairs and then just predict their reactions to screw up your spacing and GG.”

The opponent is trying to prevent you from doing this. I could easily say the same thing for him; he could just figure out how to consistently avoid well spaced Bairs and then just predict their reactions to screw up your spacing and GG sir Wolf. The reason why DDD beats Wolf by the margin he does is due to how ridiculously easy this is to do; space a Bair too close, get grabbed, too far away, get Waddled, spacing just right is easier said than done. The best way to beat Bair is to constantly zone as to make Bair less effective so Wolf needs to utilize other options such as Uair, Blaster, etc.
 

Corrupted

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
446
Marth's UpB is a frame 1 move, with invincibility during the first 5 frames
MK's UpB is a frame 8 , with invincibility frame 5-8

Stop associating them with each other, they are too different
 

Corrupted

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
446
I thought MK only had one frame of invincibility o.O

And Marth's up B is ONE frame?
Jup. But they are used for completely different things, which is why I think its wierd when they are associated with each other.

MK's grounded up B wrecks aerial approaches
Marth's up B to get of of combos/ panic button when whiffed an attack.
 

ArcPoint

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
1,183
Location
NorCal, California.
Rob's ftilt...any confirmation? I can't test that by myself >_>

And for Marth's Up B: Can it hit Wolf's foot as it's extended?

ANd Mk's Up B: Does that just go through Wolf's Bair completely...? Or can you out-space it?
 

-Jumpman-

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Messages
2,854
Location
Netherlands
Jup. But they are used for completely different things, which is why I think its wierd when they are associated with each other.

MK's grounded up B wrecks aerial approaches
Marth's up B to get of of combos/ panic button when whiffed an attack.
This is bs, marth's upb starts at frame 5 and has 5 invincibility frames, the first 5.
 
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