Well, it was nice while it lasted.

[brodouble]

umm, i don't think the question was whether or not he's downright unplayable so much as whether he's still "viable" against higher tier characters, and the answer is, not really. he was already only mid tier before this update and now he'll stay there or sink slightly lower because having to play defensively just means he sucks, mostly. i mean you can't really play "smart defensively" with ness against a really solid player because they know he only has like one or two options..people are even more less likely to pick him up now just because of his shortcomings.

 

[Boiko]

umm, i don't think the question was whether or not he's downright unplayable so much as whether he's still "viable" against higher tier characters, and the answer is, not really. he was already only mid tier before this update and now he'll stay there or sink slightly lower because having to play defensively just means he sucks, mostly. i mean you can't really play "smart defensively" with ness against a really solid player because they know he only has like one or two options..people are even more less likely to pick him up now just because of his shortcomings.

In melee Marth had two options and was top tier.

 

[brodouble]

In melee Marth had two options and was top tier.

mmk, well, guess they're a lot better options than ness.

 

[Boiko]

Well, I'm by no means an authority on Project M, but here's my two cents; the PK fire nerf was actually ok. In fact, I think it's probably a good thing. I'm not too knowledgeable about the various tricks you can do with the new one, but the added consistency is nice, and it's definitely good to encourage people to do something else other than spam it in neutral. However, the unintended side effect of this is that Ness's neutral got a bit less varied. His only reliably effective approach at this point is FAir (the dash attack buff was cool as well, but I believe you can be shield-grabbed between the first two hits, correct me if I'm wrong). So his neutral game is rather predictable. I'm not entirely sure what would help this. Perhaps a magnet buff, though people have been screaming for a magnet buff for ages. The DThrow nerf is what really confuses me. I have yet to see the effects of it play out fully, but I'm just scratching my head as to why it was necessary. Any thoughts? Again, if I'm wrong in any of this, please call me out. Always up to learn more about Ness. But long story short, Ness is definitely not crippled, and I'll main him no matter what.

Also, this may sound like a stupid question, but would someone mind briefly explaining the properties of Edge-Cancelled PKT2? How do do it, when to do it, and why? Also, Boiko, in another thread you mentioned that the new PKF "makes for some really cool tricks". Could you elaborate? I'd like to step up my game in light of the changes. I'm kind of molting my scrub feathers, you know?

Edge cancel is when you either slide off or hit the edge of a platform or the stage and automatically cancel all landing lag. For some reason, this didn't work in 3.02 and Ness would slide off into freefall. Now that it works, he can edge cancel intoan immediate aerial.

PKF tricks are pretty cool. Dair causes knock down if timed properly which can lead into jab reset anything. There are a few other tricks. Working on it now.

 

[Boiko]

mmk, well, guess they're a lot better options than ness.

They have the same playstyle but Ness has a projectile and can go deeper off stage. Ness is definitely more viable now than in 3.02.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

People need to realize that every character's options have been adjusted dramatically. Ness lost a couple options, but he finds himself better off relative to the rest of the cast this time.

Don't look at the changes on paper. Go out and actually play with them. Find new tech. Adapt.

 

[LovinMitts]

I'm less pissy about the new PK Fire, though I still consider it a nerf. I'll just have to adapt since I play Ness because I like EarthBound, not necessarily for his playstyle.

 

[QUBiX]

Edge cancel is when you either slide off or hit the edge of a platform or the stage and automatically cancel all landing lag. For some reason, this didn't work in 3.02 and Ness would slide off into freefall. Now that it works, he can edge cancel intoan immediate aerial.

PKF tricks are pretty cool. Dair causes knock down if timed properly which can lead into jab reset anything. There are a few other tricks. Working on it now.

I like the dash attack into PKF follow up> dair>jab reset>f-smash.

Seem like the trajectory of the last hitbox on Ness dash attack is a little different. It tends to send people behind him more at low-mid percents. That's when I figured out you can get that grounded PKF link after. Feels pretty cool using his fire as a follow up and not an opener in a combo.

 

[--|====> MANIA]

It's not Mewtwo's hover, bruv. Smart use makes being choked out in neutral harder, plus platform chases, fake-outs, mobility and recovery all got buffed. Also an actual way to deal with projectiles. All buffs Ganon needed to not suck and now he doesn't but he doesn't dominate the cast or anything like that. It's just his most obvious weaknesses got ameliorated.

Haha, I admit that I was using a hyperbole. The buffs were probably necessary and reasonable, but you know what?

Its weird and different, and I don't like it lol.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Haha, I admit that I was using a hyperbole. The buffs were probably necessary and reasonable, but you know what?

Its weird and different, and I don't like it lol.

Lol that's fair.

I'll just be enjoying my flying king of evil over here then. My practice partner mains Peach tho so that reflector is more than adequate and I'll definitely appreciate the mix-up.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Ganon's actually the swaggiest character in the game, no lie. Definitely on my 3.5 secondary list.

 

[LovinMitts]

Ganon's actually the swaggiest character in the game, no lie. Definitely on my 3.5 secondary list.

Before, all I would do with Ganondorf is play really recklessly, trying to kill bith me and my opponent by flame choking off the stage or going for the wizards foot spike. Now I have a sword to try and land too. The PMDT just loves to give me things to disrespect with.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Before, all I would do with Ganondorf is play really recklessly, trying to kill bith me and my opponent by flame choking off the stage or going for the wizards foot spike. Now I have a sword to try and land too. The PMDT just loves to give me things to disrespect with.

The holy grail for me so far is floating low and gimping with the Bitchsmack of Darkness. I've only managed to get it once so far, but it's actually the best thing ever.

 

[Ganreizu]

He has no approaching options.

I can tell you know ness.

 

[LovinMitts]

I can tell you know ness.

He has pretty much one approach now. A fairly decent one, though it is a bit predictable.

 

[Boiko]

He has pretty much one approach now. A fairly decent one, though it is a bit predictable.

This just isn't true. Even if it was, Ness isn't meant to approach.

I personally think he's one of the best designed characters in 3.5.

 

[Ganreizu]

This just isn't true. Even if it was, Ness isn't meant to approach.

I personally think he's one of the best designed characters in 3.5.

I agree with you. However, if he did, the best option is still probably fair.

The thing is this has literally always been how it is. Ness has never in any official game had a (good) approach option other than fair (except maybe 64? i dunno) because everything else is too risky between giving up double jump or having a lot of lag, so it's really silly to say "he only has one approach option, wah" when this has always been the struggle and ness mains should already know that.

Despite that, PKF is still relatively ok to approach with. As long as it isn't grounded, you have a ton of freedom to move now. Plus we still have that one tech where you land and PKF comes out grounded without any lag at all. I got it once on my first time playing 3.5 so i want to say it's easier to do now but not sure.

I'm going to try and not approach more often, though.

 

[Boiko]

I agree with you. However, if he did, the best option is still probably fair.

The thing is this has literally always been how it is. Ness has never in any official game had a (good) approach option other than fair (except maybe 64? i dunno) because everything else is too risky between giving up double jump or having a lot of lag, so it's really silly to say "he only has one approach option, wah" when this has always been the struggle and ness mains should already know that.

Despite that, PKF is still relatively ok to approach with. As long as it isn't grounded, you have a ton of freedom to move now. Plus we still have that one tech where you land and PKF comes out grounded without any lag at all. I got it once on my first time playing 3.5 so i want to say it's easier to do now but not sure.

I'm going to try and not approach more often, though.

It's unfortunately not any easier, and as a result, still pretty impractical.

Ness has a pretty decent dash dash and he can put up walls with his fair and bair. Also, he can feign an approach dip out dash dance dash attack back in to punish. His DA is super good with the added range and it puts your opponent in a bad position.

Ness is more of a pressure character than an approach character. He keeps up walls and forces the opponent into bad situations and then punishes when they do something...well...punishable. I'm still trying to get my recording set up working, but when I do. I'll upload some Ness videos that demonstrate that.

 

[--|====> MANIA]

It's unfortunately not any easier, and as a result, still pretty impractical.

Ness has a pretty decent dash dash and he can put up walls with his fair and bair. Also, he can feign an approach dip out dash dance dash attack back in to punish. His DA is super good with the added range and it puts your opponent in a bad position.

Ness is more of a pressure character than an approach character. He keeps up walls and forces the opponent into bad situations and then punishes when they do something...well...punishable. I'm still trying to get my recording set up working, but when I do. I'll upload some Ness videos that demonstrate that.

I agree with Boiko on this one. Being the initiator too often while playing Ness will just get you smacked in neutral if you're playing someone who knows what their doing, most especially now in 3.5. Ness' punish options are really good though in the form of wavedash grabs, wavedash d-tilts, fairs, dairs everything lol. The magnet DJC shenanigans were meant for punishes.

I love the f-tilt btw. I didn't think that the buff would matter at first, but it frickin' really does.

 

[brodouble]

It's unfortunately not any easier, and as a result, still pretty impractical.

Ness has a pretty decent dash dash and he can put up walls with his fair and bair. Also, he can feign an approach dip out dash dance dash attack back in to punish. His DA is super good with the added range and it puts your opponent in a bad position.

Ness is more of a pressure character than an approach character. He keeps up walls and forces the opponent into bad situations and then punishes when they do something...well...punishable. I'm still trying to get my recording set up working, but when I do. I'll upload some Ness videos that demonstrate that.

yeahh...upload some vids of you applying pressure with ness against some pro players and i'll believe it.

 

[Ganreizu]

yeahh...upload some vids of you applying pressure with ness against some pro players and i'll believe it.

You're not as smart as you think you are if you don't think what he said was true.

 

[Boiko]

yeahh...upload some vids of you applying pressure with ness against some pro players and i'll believe it.

What constitutes pro?
I'm already an acknowledged top 5 Ness main by some "pros."

 

[brodouble]

You're not as smart as you think you are if you don't think what he said was true.

mmk, that's nice. i'd still like to see him do it. everyone on vgboot/new meta seemed to agree that ness wasn't very viable now, and after playing with him i kinda agree. if he can prove me wrong, then great.

 

[Boiko]

mmk, that's nice. i'd still like to see him do it. everyone on vgboot/new meta seemed to agree that ness wasn't very viable now, and after playing with him i kinda agree. if he can prove me wrong, then great.

Sure. I'm going to KTAR on Saturday. I'll try to do some work there.

 

[Ganreizu]

What does ness being viable have to do with being able to pressure/put up walls/punish punishable things? A character can be "not viable" to people and still be able to do those things. Even ness in melee is capable of all that.

 

[QUBiX]

Come on guys obviously anything said via vgbootcamp has to be real. almost just like the internet. /kappa

 

[Icehawkz0]

Tbh i think he's just "redesigned" for a more aggressive playstyle. I don't know why, but mag feels tons faster and it seems easier to approach. I think we just need to try to adapt to our character, which is wierd.

 

[Giygacoal]

I like this Ness. He's my secondary now.