Well, it was nice while it lasted.

[LovinMitts]

So this is the thread where I (and others if you all want) complain about the nerfs to Ness.

The activation on shield was removed just because people complained. It wasn't broken, or even overpowered. Literally, people don't know how to let it activate on their shield, then just roll away. And the duration nerf is just ridiculous. Especially since you can pretty much walk about of the pillar now.

There's nothing they did to Ness that I'm particularly happy with. They removed the sole reason Ness was viable in 3.0.

Please, share your opinions on this update's effect on Ness below.

 

[Beorn]

No PK fire activating on shield was taken away because it was bad design. Not fun things are bad for the game. Links rang was also one of these things that was taken in 3.5. The game is better for it.

Think about how good nesses offstage game is now with the nerfed recovery s. Remember that ness, like many other characters, were bad in comparison to the top 10. With the exception of a couple of characters (fox) The top tier was brought down considerably.

Ness will do well now.

 

[LovinMitts]

No PK fire activating on shield was taken away because it was bad design. Not fun things are bad for the game. Links rang was also one of these things that was taken in 3.5. The game is better for it.

Think about how good nesses offstage game is now with the nerfed recovery s. Remember that ness, like many other characters, were bad in comparison to the top 10. With the exception of a couple of characters (fox) The top tier was brought down considerably.

Ness will do well now.

They buffed Falco's recovery.

 

[LovinMitts]

Even if they his offstage game was passively buffed by all of the recovery nerfs, he can't do much onstage now becuase he doesn't have a useable approaching tool.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Ness actually got better.

 

[LovinMitts]

His only buff was on his ftilt

 

[Eltrion]

I need tournament results to say for sure ... but the fact that ness' only approach is f-air now suggests that he will at the very least have the most predictable neutral game. And it's really a shame, it sort of makes him feel boring.

What I will miss most is canceling PKT2 onstage, so much fun, so gutsy, and now it just isn't safe...

Like I get that the nerfs arent that bad, but they really gutted a lot of the personality of the character. Hopefully I'll be more satisfied after playing some more matches, and "redescovered" him, so to speak.

It's like if they reverted DKs dash attack. Changes that just felt good and natural, just (partially) reverted...

 

[Boiko]

His only buff was on his ftilt

And his Pk fire is better overall. Just because you relied on PKF doesn't mean the super good players like myself and zeej did.

Also, he is better because everyone else is worse.

 

[Eltrion]

I'm surprised you think PK fire is better. Any new properties of note to back that up? I'm pretty sure it's a definite nerf...

 

[QUBiX]

I'm happy to see f-tilt get a buff in its recovery frames. It's something that I had brought up before that could help Ness while getting pressured, or applying it himself. The dash attack buff is kinda nice as a space tool. I used to always hit max range dash attacks before and now it feels a bit safer. I feel like i can get used to PK fire the way it is. For those that knew how to get out of it usually took less damage than what you can get with it now. I just still kinda wish PSImag had gotten a 2 frame reduction on its start up.

 

[QUBiX]

I'm surprised you think PK fire is better. Any new properties of note to back that up? I'm pretty sure it's a definite nerf...

For starters the guaranteed 8% damage on hit is nice. It always seemed like floaties and people who knew how to DI/SDI would only take around 4%-6% damage. Unless you played someone who's uneducated at the deeper fundamentals of smash there were hardly situations you would get the 24% damage.

 

[Boiko]

I'm surprised you think PK fire is better. Any new properties of note to back that up? I'm pretty sure it's a definite nerf...

About a 6% success rate on good players. Now it's harder to hit but 100% more rewarding.

 

[Eltrion]

Er... maybe I guess... Still would prefer being able to force a roll from the on shield hit.

 

[Akhenderson]

I'm surprised you think PK fire is better. Any new properties of note to back that up? I'm pretty sure it's a definite nerf...

the fact that it actually hits when its supposed to is enough to make pk fire better. Those times when PK Fire hit an opponent on their head but they didn't get stunned by the pillar even though it clearly hit? GONE. I will gladly trade consistency for less of a shield option that didn't even affect me 90% of the time.

 

[GMaster171]

I personally like Ness in 3.5. I was never one to fully rely on PKF, but the new one still fits into his game play well. You just gotta look on the good side, like everyone's recovery is worse so dair is even more scary. As well, aerial PKF is safe at every range (even point blank, its -2) so its not like you will suddenly get punished for every attempt.

Another cool thing people are overlooking is the simple fact that PKF hits now AND cant be powershielded in the middle of it. This makes it so whenever you get the read, you're going to get something out of it, no more random "I hit his head but he didnt get hit" or "just hold down and mash shield for free PS" silliness.

Of course I don't believe any character in 3.5 can be solo mained, but I still think Ness remains around mid tier.

 

[Boiko]

Er... maybe I guess... Still would prefer being able to force a roll from the on shield hit.

You know who rolls out of PK fire? Bad players. SDI is always better. Period.

 

[LovinMitts]

I dunno, I just feel like 3.5 will be slower and less over-the-top than 3.0, due to many integral parts of characters taking nerfs. I just think it might make the game a bit less diverse.

 

[Eltrion]

You know who rolls out of PK fire? Bad players. SDI is always better. Period.

No one I know does. Not even the top Toronto guys. They roll back, they don't drop their sheild and SDI out.

 

[LovinMitts]

No one I know does. Not even the top Toronto guys. They roll back, they don't drop their sheild and SDI out.

You take unnecessary damage by SDI'ing out, rolling is definately a better option, unless someone can prove what I said wrong.

 

[LovinMitts]

Also, I don't like that the duration of PKF was shortened by so much. I'd rather have it do less damage on hit but stay out longer. Gives more leeway for following up if it hits, which is made much more difficult since it no longer activates on sheilds.

They made PK Fire more difficult to land, and less rewarding for when it does land. I don't see why this is a good thing.

 

[--|====> MANIA]

I dunno, I just feel like 3.5 will be slower and less over-the-top than 3.0, due to many integral parts of characters taking nerfs. I just think it might make the game a bit less diverse.

As an intermediate level player, I also was kind of mad about the nerfs on many of the characters. It did kind of feel like the nerfs took away some of the uniqueness of the characters and made the gaming experience more bland. Like a lot of other people, I was pretty annoyed with the PK fire nerf (?) along with other things I initially felt took away from my creative playstyle.

However, after playing some people this afternoon, I noticed that 3.5 rewards intelligent playing over that of gimmicky tech and easy, broken combos, particularly with Ness, since his approach is still...not great.

I actually had to think (gasp!) about what I was doing instead of just relying on a robotic PK Fire and PSI Magnet flow chart that I had developed in 3.0.

Can the little changes feel kind of annoying? Sure, I'm with you on that, I REALLY miss the length of time that of the old PK Fire had and I somewhat miss the activation on shield. But overall I when I play now, I feel like I'm playing against a person rather than playing against a character. I think that playing 3.5 will take my play to a whole new level forcing me to be more cognizant of the stuff that I do rather than relying on things that, while awesome, are ultimately gimmicky like the PK Fire wall trap that existed in 3.0.

 

[Eltrion]

I'd be happy if they changed the ending of PKT2 back. I might not like the Fire change, but I understand it from a design standpoint.

PKT2 was mostly a unique high commitment gambling movement option. It still is, but it now it feels less viable, and it's a part of ness' character it seems a shame to throw away.

 

[Zatchiel]

You take unnecessary damage by SDI'ing out, rolling is definately a better option, unless someone can prove what I said wrong.

You would take even more unnecessary damage for rolling. If it gets read you're easily going to get trapped by another PK Fire or a dash attack/grab depending on how close Ness is and which direction you roll. Even just decent SDI on it ensured that you took no more than a measly 2-4% and left you free to counter Ness's approach from behind the PK Fire or jump over/away from a subsequent PK Fire if he goes for that.

When people go for rolling away from an active PK Fire I could generally just run through and land a pivot grab or charge an fsmash in the other direction/dsmash according to which direction of roll I predict. In 3.2 I'd very rarely even try to shield PK Fire at all for this reason, you're a lot more limited if you're stuck in shield by PK Fire, while if you ever got hit instead the most you'd take is 4% if you knew how to SDI.

The new guaranteed 8% on hit is pretty awesome though. I'm okay with the compromises of activation longevity/activation on shields as I didn't overly rely on either. I've come to prefer using PK Fire as more of a conditioning tool as well as obvious punishment for dodges/landings/techs if I don't want to commit to a full chase. The slight modification to dash attack makes it a bit more usable for that task though.

 

[BobVance_]

He's bad. He has zero approaching options, dgrab not being able to combo after 50% sucks, and quite frankly PK Fire spam only worked on noobs so I don't know why they nerfed that too. You'll probably still be able to win against a lot of average or intermediate players if you're good with him, but good luck making him viable in any pro tourneys.

 

[Eltrion]

Probably Going to need to double main with Mario if I want to keep my standing . Scared I'm going to get bopped by a random Roy or Ganon. I just need to get out and play. Been too busy to go out and play with actual people.

 

[LovinMitts]

I really don't want to have to resort to options other than using PK fire as an approach :/ All there is is fair, or maybe dash attack if i'm feeling risky.

Also, on the subject of Pk Thunder, the landing lag is maybe a little much. I can umderstand why its there, but Ness's recovery is so predictable and exploitable, it was at least a good mixup to land onstage and still be relatively safe in 3.0.

 

[BobVance_]

The changes don't really make any sense. I could understand if he was dominating tournaments with cheap PK Fire spam or something, but he wasn't. Most of the characters that got nerfs were just mid tier. Meanwhile Fox is still in a tier of his own.

Oh well...like the topic says, it was nice while it lasted. :/

 

[Boiko]

Sigh. This thread is filled with misinformation.

 

[BobVance_]

Sigh. This thread is filled with misinformation.

Not really. Most players agree right now that Ness was hit hard.

 

[LovinMitts]

Sigh. This thread is filled with misinformation.

Then correct us, Mr. All-Knowing, damn. Your views on the update must be the right ones.

 

[LovinMitts]

I'm playing Ness right now, trying to adapt, and I found a decent use for PK Fire. Since people will likely know that it doesnt activate on shields, you can approach with an aerial PK Fire. They will likely shield or sidestep. If they shield, grab. If they sidestep, punish once its done. If it hits, follow up.

And, since aerial PKF has minimal landing lag, you can jump towards them again and land another PKF before following up upon landing.

This is all just theory on my part, however, since it hasnt been tested on realmplayers, just the PM AI.

 

[Boiko]

Then correct us, Mr. All-Knowing, damn. Your views on the update must be the right ones.

Yeah, they are.
Lmao, but you clearly have the mindset of the player who abused pkf in the neutral and got all your mileage off of it. PKF is much better if it hits now. Working edge cancel on PKT2 IS amazing. Ness barely got hit.

 

[LovinMitts]

Yeah, they are.
Lmao, but you clearly have the mindset of the player who abused pkf in the neutral and got all your mileage off of it. PKF is much better if it hits now. Working edge cancel on PKT2 IS amazing. Ness barely got hit.

I abused the hell out of it in neutral, dude. No reason not to since it cancels upon landing. Also, what are the applications of PKT2's edge cancel?

 

[--|====> MANIA]

Yeah, I'm not really sure what people's problem is with PKT2. I played some 3.5 and I didn't notice anything that screwed me over with the recovery (at least nothing more than usual), but maybe I'm just missing something.

I do kind of miss my down-throw tech chases and safe follow-ups from down-throw at higher percentages.

I still don't think that Ness' approach is impossible without PK Fire, I just think that you now have to work harder than your opponent on account of Ness' stubby, childish arms. The old PK fire simply allowed for more aggressive plays as the PK Fire was a long lasting hitbox that just sat there if it hit a shield or a character. While I did like the length of time the old PK Fire had due to it just being a free hitbox hanging out on the stage, I think that if the Ness player simply chills out, plays intelligently and little more defensively than they did in 3.0, I think that they will be okay.

I still stand by my believe that the nerfs (?) that everyone received will make the community as whole into smarter players, even if the changes eliminate some of our preferred styles of play.

Unless you main Ganon. Then you were buffed into god-tier.

 

[BobVance_]

Yeah, they are.
Lmao, but you clearly have the mindset of the player who abused pkf in the neutral and got all your mileage off of it. PKF is much better if it hits now. Working edge cancel on PKT2 IS amazing. Ness barely got hit.

Lol, and you clearly have the mindset of "yo i am a premimum so i can post arrogant nd vauge one sentence postz and liek i will be right cuz i iz premium and i have ness photo and ness icons in mah profilez and dat meanz i guud wit ness"

He got hit hard. Basically what they did was force him to go defensive. Good luck tackling a good Fox with him now. He has no approaching options.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Unless you main Ganon. Then you were buffed into god-tier.

It's not Mewtwo's hover, bruv. Smart use makes being choked out in neutral harder, plus platform chases, fake-outs, mobility and recovery all got buffed. Also an actual way to deal with projectiles. All buffs Ganon needed to not suck and now he doesn't but he doesn't dominate the cast or anything like that. It's just his most obvious weaknesses got ameliorated.

 

[Eltrion]

Practicing Ledge cancelled PKT2. Nerf isn't as bad as I thought. I can still style with this, just not as often.
Grabbing out of PKT2 will be missed though.

 

[Boiko]

Lol, and you clearly have the mindset of "yo i am a premimum so i can post arrogant nd vauge one sentence postz and liek i will be right cuz i iz premium and i have ness photo and ness icons in mah profilez and dat meanz i guud wit ness"

He got hit hard. Basically what they did was force him to go defensive. Good luck tackling a good Fox with him now. He has no approaching options.

No, I have results. Ness is already defensive. He floats around and waits for someone to do something punishable and punishes. His PKF punish is now guaranteed not just going to hit your opponent's head and they walk away, or hit their shield and they shield sdi out.

@ Eltrion PKF is okay in the neutral. But it was still very punishable and baitable. I'm glad you see the merit of edge cancelling PKT2 though. That used to not work but now it does and it's so good.

 

[ilysm]

Well, I'm by no means an authority on Project M, but here's my two cents; the PK fire nerf was actually ok. In fact, I think it's probably a good thing. I'm not too knowledgeable about the various tricks you can do with the new one, but the added consistency is nice, and it's definitely good to encourage people to do something else other than spam it in neutral. However, the unintended side effect of this is that Ness's neutral got a bit less varied. His only reliably effective approach at this point is FAir (the dash attack buff was cool as well, but I believe you can be shield-grabbed between the first two hits, correct me if I'm wrong). So his neutral game is rather predictable. I'm not entirely sure what would help this. Perhaps a magnet buff, though people have been screaming for a magnet buff for ages. The DThrow nerf is what really confuses me. I have yet to see the effects of it play out fully, but I'm just scratching my head as to why it was necessary. Any thoughts? Again, if I'm wrong in any of this, please call me out. Always up to learn more about Ness. But long story short, Ness is definitely not crippled, and I'll main him no matter what.

Also, this may sound like a stupid question, but would someone mind briefly explaining the properties of Edge-Cancelled PKT2? How do do it, when to do it, and why? Also, Boiko, in another thread you mentioned that the new PKF "makes for some really cool tricks". Could you elaborate? I'd like to step up my game in light of the changes. I'm kind of molting my scrub feathers, you know?

 

[Eltrion]

Like I've mentioned I'm coming around. I liked the old PK fire more, but it was too spammy. I understand.

Ness really hasn't been surfed very much at all, he's just harder to play now. Reworking my play style is dissorienting, but coming faster than expected.