Welcome to the Fox Hole - A Fox General Discussion

[Chinaux]

Fox's bad matchup is probs samus
I don't know the actual details but from what I know, samus-fox is 50-50 in melee, and taking in account pm buffs makes it samus' advantage in pm

It's just how fox can be comboed pretty easily and can be pressured so hard with samus's projectiles that if you don't have momentum in your favor it'll be hard to win.

 

[SmashBroski]

I've been fooling around with Fox for awhile so I have a few questions.

1. I've been starting to get the hang of SHDL but is there any way to improve my consistency (besides practice, which I'm doing)? Sometimes I can SHDL but other times only one laser's fired. Can you fire two lasers after pressing from the ledge?I use Y to jump if that helps.

2. Is multishining a technique I'll need? I somewhat understand the shine though my wavedash out of shines could use improvement. Any good strategies with the shine (vs. Mario, for example).

 

[Chinaux]

I've been fooling around with Fox for awhile so I have a few questions.

1. I've been starting to get the hang of SHDL but is there any way to improve my consistency (besides practice, which I'm doing)? Sometimes I can SHDL but other times only one laser's fired. Can you fire two lasers after pressing from the ledge?I use Y to jump if that helps.

2. Is multishining a technique I'll need? I somewhat understand the shine though my wavedash out of shines could use improvement. Any good strategies with the shine (vs. Mario, for example).

It's really useful but you don't need it. There are other (probably not as good) options to it.

 

[Chainz]

Was happening guys, I got a few questions.

Whats the best way to approach when the match start? Do you go in with an attack or grab? Do you get them to approach you? What some good gameplans for the Fox?

Also, when you fighting a character that got a lot of projectiles like Samus, Link, Toon Link, ect. Whats the best way to approach them when they're throwing **** at you? Like I try to waveshine o run shield into them. But it seems very risky, especially since my waveshine ain't perfect yet. I'm thinking jumping over all that to get to them might be my only approach in this situation. But it's predictable on their end though.

 

[Chinaux]

Was happening guys, I got a few questions.

Whats the best way to approach when the match start? Do you go in with an attack or grab? Do you get them to approach you? What some good gameplans for the Fox?

Also, when you fighting a character that got a lot of projectiles like Samus, Link, Toon Link, ect. Whats the best way to approach them when they're throwing **** at you? Like I try to waveshine o run shield into them. But it seems very risky, especially since my waveshine ain't perfect yet. I'm thinking jumping over all that to get to them might be my only approach in this situation. But it's predictable on their end though.

You need to rely on your movements. Look at pro melee/PM players, and look how (most) of them are extremely mobile. You should be dash dancing a ton, moving along platforms, and doing hit and runs, and on top of that making sure you aren't being predictable.

Just use your high mobility to your advantage and do a quick l-canceled nair and go from there.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Fox's bad matchup is probs samus
I don't know the actual details but from what I know, samus-fox is 50-50 in melee, and taking in account pm buffs makes it samus' advantage in pm

No. She has been nerfed in many ways, with the release of 3.5
Ice mode has been weakend, and her recovery is extremely weak, in contrast to previous versions of PM, and ofc melee.

I've been fooling around with Fox for awhile so I have a few questions.

1. I've been starting to get the hang of SHDL but is there any way to improve my consistency (besides practice, which I'm doing)?

I basically try to do it about as fast as I double shine, if that means anything to you. If you move your finger from or / as fast as you can and double tap You should be fine.

2. Is multishining a technique I'll need? I somewhat understand the shine though my wavedash out of shines could use improvement. Any good strategies with the shine (vs. Mario, for example).

It's not needed to win. Mango didn't use double shines for a long ass time, It's just another tool in fox arsenal that makes him that much more deadly. Unless the projectile characters is far away(or you're recovering), don't use shine to reflect. Just use it the way you normally would.

Was happening guys, I got a few questions.

Whats the best way to approach when the match start? Do you go in with an attack or grab? Do you get them to approach you? What some good gameplans for the Fox?

Also, when you fighting a character that got a lot of projectiles like Samus, Link, Toon Link, ect. Whats the best way to approach them when they're throwing **** at you? Like I try to waveshine o run shield into them. But it seems very risky, especially since my waveshine ain't perfect yet. I'm thinking jumping over all that to get to them might be my only approach in this situation. But it's predictable on their end though.

It depends on who and what you are playing. If you wanna be safe, shdl. If you wanna atk, nair, drill (maybe rar bair) into shine and follow up. You can grab first, if you made them whiff while you were DD'ing. You also get a grab later in the game, if you have them conditioned to respect run up shine.

I think you should just watch some top players play fox in PM and melee, as well as just play. It'll make more sense after you do that some more.

Fox can nair through a lot of projectiles. ie mario is standing and does a fireball> run up and nair and try to hit him. You will destroy the fireball and hit mario. Mario's IASA for his fireball is 41 frames now. Very punishable. Such lag.

But anyway, with full hops, coupled with his fall speed, it makes navigation through projectiles a lot easier. Don't be afraid to use the top platform. Do not try to get aggressive if the links are up close and rang your shield. Idk about link anymore, but iirc tinks is ether 0 on shield or positive. Meaning(you gotta respect it), you can wait in shield, see what he does, maybe get a punish idk, or retreat and reset neutral.

 

[Chainz]

You need to rely on your movements. Look at pro melee/PM players, and look how (most) of them are extremely mobile. You should be dash dancing a ton, moving along platforms, and doing hit and runs, and on top of that making sure you aren't being predictable.

Just use your high mobility to your advantage and do a quick l-canceled nair and go from there.

Aight, just tried this out in some friendlies earlier. I gotta say man the results were good. Really confused my opponents. Way better than just going in with a bum rush and hope I can land a combo. The only problem is my SHFL is bad as hell. But thats nothing training and time won't fix.

It depends on who and what you are playing. If you wanna be safe, shdl. If you wanna atk, nair, drill (maybe rar bair) into shine and follow up. You can grab first, if you made them whiff while you were DD'ing. You also get a grab later in the game, if you have them conditioned to respect run up shine.

I think you should just watch some top players play fox in PM and melee, as well as just play. It'll make more sense after you do that some more.

Fox can nair through a lot of projectiles. ie mario is standing and does a fireball> run up and nair and try to hit him. You will destroy the fireball and hit mario. Mario's IASA for his fireball is 41 frames now. Very punishable. Such lag.

But anyway, with full hops, coupled with his fall speed, it makes navigation through projectiles a lot easier. Don't be afraid to use the top platform. Do not try to get aggressive if the links are up close and rang your shield. Idk about link anymore, but iirc tinks is ether 0 on shield or positive. Meaning(you gotta respect it), you can wait in shield, see what he does, maybe get a punish idk, or retreat and reset neutral.

Aight, I just have another question, How would you input the SHDL, and fire two shots instead of one? I've been trying this out in the Lab, but can only get one shot per S-Hop.

Other than that. I appreciate the advice. Hopefully I can have this information hard-wired before this tournament thats comin up. I'll keep working on my SHDL. Once I can land those a good 90% of the time w/ an aerial attacks and shine. My Fox just got a lot more deadly.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Check the part of my last post showing the buttons. Just gotta be quick wit it.

 

[Chinaux]

Honestly you're a fast character it wouldn't make sense not to utilize it.

 

[Chainz]

Honestly you're a fast character it wouldn't make sense not to utilize it.

Na, never said I didn't use his speed, man. I did DD to get that movement going and all, I just wasn't being smart with it. Bum rushing is (was) kinda a bad habit for me. But it's all good. That "Hit and Run" style is perfect, man. Definitely should've been doing that instead.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Can Spacies Doraki Jump?

 

[Chinaux]

Can Spacies Doraki Jump?

yes

 

[Animage]

No. She has been nerfed in many ways, with the release of 3.5
Ice mode has been weakend, and her recovery is extremely weak, in contrast to previous versions of PM, and ofc melee.

Lemme get this straight
You're telling me PM 3.5 samus is worse than melee samus?
And why would you even use ice against spacies in the first place?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Lemme get this straight
You're telling me PM 3.5 samus is worse than melee samus?
And why would you even use ice against spacies in the first place?

Her recovery is no where near as good as it was in melee. Once she goes off stage, shes gonna eat a ton of DMG or straight up die. ESPECIALLY, to a character like fox. I am not saying ice mode is bad, but it has been nerfed enough, for it not, to be ******** good anymore. It still has its uses. You see a lot of knowledgeable/top samus mains talk about in the tier list their or even in their own section.

 

[Paradoxium]

Her recovery is no where near as good as it was in melee. Once she goes off stage, shes gonna eat a ton of DMG or straight up die. ESPECIALLY, to a character like fox. I am not saying ice mode is bad, but it has been nerfed enough, for it not, to be ******** good anymore. It still has its uses. You see a lot of knowledgeable/top samus mains talk about in the tier list their or even in their own section.

Pm Samus is way better than Melee Samus, her recovery isn't as good but it's still is one of the best recoveries in the game.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Not anymore

 

[Animage]

Not anymore

All you did is say that Pm samus gets hit more during the recovery without explaining why
PM samus' recovery is actually better than melee samus imo because it is so much easier to sweetspot the ledge

And I guess it doesn't even matter that her up-B oos is so much better, nor that her fire moves connect better, nor that she has an actual usable roll, nor that her fsmash/tilt were buffed, nor that she has a zair, need I go on?

 

[Taytertot]

I havent seen a whole lot of fox in PM as far as tournament matches go but of the fox players I have seen, none of them seem to use B-reversing or wavebouncing or at least not enough to notice. Why is that? I feel like it would help improve fox's metagame because most are already very aware of how melee fox should be played and therefore are at least somewhat prepared for the MU when facing a fox, which I think is even more reason to throw others off by using B-reverse and wavebounce lasers (not sure if it would do much for his other B moves though it might have a slightly interesting effect on fox's movement with shine).

 

[Deep2]

I havent seen a whole lot of fox in PM as far as tournament matches go but of the fox players I have seen, none of them seem to use B-reversing or wavebouncing or at least not enough to notice. Why is that? I feel like it would help improve fox's metagame because most are already very aware of how melee fox should be played and therefore are at least somewhat prepared for the MU when facing a fox, which I think is even more reason to throw others off by using B-reverse and wavebounce lasers (not sure if it would do much for his other B moves though it might have a slightly interesting effect on fox's movement with shine).

B-reverse what? Lasers? That's useless, they don't deal knockback so you're just putting yourself in a bad spot. Useful for Falco, but not Fox. Also, most Fox players don't need wavebouncing for anything. He can already do anything he wants with all his other options and it's not necessary to win. Why bother practicing it?

 

[BRUJO~]

B-reverse what? Lasers? That's useless, they don't deal knockback so you're just putting yourself in a bad spot. Useful for Falco, but not Fox. Also, most Fox players don't need wavebouncing for anything. He can already do anything he wants with all his other options and it's not necessary to win. Why bother practicing it?

B-reversing would be pointless, but wavebouncing could be potentially beneficial, in a small way. I wouldn't put in the time, but if you truly wanted to optimize a PM fox I think wavebouncing lasers would be good. Not worth it for mid or even high level play tho

 

[Tomaster]

So three even matchups? And people think I'm crazy for thinking Fox is OP >.>

He's the best character in the game, but also the hardest and most technical. i wouldnt wanna put a lot of time to a hard to learn character if it ends up just as good as autocombo characters like mario and ness. if you're not in the zone with fox then he sucks. That being said i dont think he's op.

 

[PootisKonga]

He's the best character in the game, but also the hardest and most technical.

Like that matters any lol
Especially with the customizable control scheme PM has, he doesn't require as much hand cramping as in Melee. For an example, Z jump does wonders for making basic shine stuff simpler since you don't need to claw/move your thumb really fast

 

[Tomaster]

Like that matters any lol
Especially with the customizable control scheme PM has, he doesn't require as much hand cramping as in Melee. For an example, Z jump does wonders for making basic shine stuff simpler since you don't need to claw/move your thumb really fast

That may be true but it still takes 10s if not 100s of hours to master this character. ive gotten at least 10 hours of training mode with him (im a big nerd, ik) and he's still weaker than my other characters that ive barely practiced with at all.. maybe i just suck but i think other people can relate. So if he takes a lot of work and practice then i feel that work should be rewarded.. there's no point in putting in the work if he's not better than the other characters. Ive played some foxes that clearly havent practiced much with him and they're super easy to beat. I agree he may make high level gameplay boring because he's used so much but i dont think he's op.

 

[PootisKonga]

it... takes 10s if not 100s of hours to master [any] character... So if [they] takes a lot of work and practice then i feel that work should be rewarded..

Okay, had to change things around, but I'm comfortable wi-

there's no point in putting in the work if he's not better than the other characters

Aand you lost me.

I'd like to ask: Why. Why are you under the impression that, for any reason, even with artificial technical difficulty as a "counterbalance," Fox deserves to be the best?! I sincerely apologize if that is not what you truly mean to insinuate by your response, but it really irks me when people cite Fox's technical barriers as excuses to allow a character with a good everything to exist in his current state. Why can he recover with Fire Fox from the bottom of Skyworld without a double jump and vary the distance of his fast and far Fox Illusion when he has a supposedly "bad" recovery? Why does he have a near-lagless projectile that racks up damage and forces opponents to approach while simultaneously having simple means of stuffing said approaches? Why can a character whose supposed weakness is comboability be difficult to combo until he's decently damaged, relegating most characters to low-percent tech chases at best, while also having good techs and options out of it? Why does a character that can already dictate the pace of the entire match have access to a frame 1 projectile reflecting jump-cancellable non-CCable combo-escaping combo-starting aerial mobility stalling semi-spike? Why should he be kept that way when anyone who has come up to his level has been nerfed back under him? And finally, why do you feel he simply deserves to be the best, or that practicing with any other character should not achieve similar results?

I understand that Project M is a Melee-like mod. I understand that Fox is iconic of Melee's fast and exciting gameplay. But we've moved past Melee and need to realize that sometimes Melee just isn't the way to go. At least a few of the PMDT know this, but it's parts of the PM community (the majority of the possible dissenters originating from Melee, not that that's bad) holding them back. Fox doesn't need to be the best, just like Bowser doesn't need to be the worst. I can put hundreds, maybe thousands of hours into Bowser all I want, but right now half that time with Fox would provide far better results. I'm just dumbly loyal and prefer the character and fighting style, which is why despite still being new I am trying to go as far as I can with quite possibly the worst non-broken/glitched character in this game. I know enough not to expect utter perfection, but the day a Bowser main and a Fox main can practice for the same amount of time without the need for hard or out-of-left-field tech on either side and get similar results for their efforts is when I will be happy.

I don't claim to know how balance works, and I don't claim that anything that I say is right or even worth considering when the majority of players on this website can 2-0/3-0/whatever me in a tourney match. But as it stands, from what I've gathered from everything I've read up on, asked about, and practiced myself, the elephant in the room keeping PM's balance at perpetual risk is none other than Fox McCloud himself.

So I ask you, why is Fox so deserving of his title of strongest in a game where cast-wide balance is one of its most advertised features? I can tell you why not: Melee is an invalid reason.

 

[Tomaster]

@ PootisKonga if every character was equally powered then every character would have to be equally difficult to learn, which is boring imo. About his recovery it's considered bad because it is easy to ledge guard him, and his jumps don't help his recovery as much as they do with other characters. Im not here to argue but I just wanna finish up saying that fox isn't THAT much better than other characters. Most good foxes I've played have other characters that are just as good. He may seem overpowered sometimes because only people who have decent or better tech skills play him, but he's not God tier like mewtwo was in 3.02.

 

[shapular]

Harder to learn characters don't necessarily need to be better. If you made Fox mid tier, you know what would happen? All the Fox players would flock to the new best (technical) character. And you know who'd be left playing Fox? The real Fox players. The people for whom, without any knowledge of the metagame, Fox would be their first choice. That's right, some people play characters because they like them, not because they're the best or whatever. There are people out there who would put the work into Fox just because they like Fox as a character. Besides, Fox's moveset is so good that you don't need to be that technical to be even with the other characters. You just need to be that technical to have a positive matchup on almost every character. (And honestly it's not a rare skill. Just look at how many Foxes there are in any given state's scene. It's a lot.)

 

[Tomaster]

Harder to learn characters don't necessarily need to be better.

I disagree, but you're entitled to your opinion.

 

[shapular]

I disagree, but you're entitled to your opinion.

The whole idea of "x character needs to be better" goes against the idea of balance, which is supposedly a thing PMDT wants and generally a good thing in competitive games. If you want an unbalanced game, go play Melee.

 

[Tomaster]

The whole idea of "x character needs to be better" goes against the idea of balance, which is supposedly a thing PMDT wants and generally a good thing in competitive games. If you want an unbalanced game, go play Melee.

Clearly you can't accept that someone's opinion is different than your own, as i said, im done arguing.

 

[Sneez]

hey guys im fairly new to fox, seems like if you bair on the first possible frame of a short hop you land without lag (not sure if autocancel or the move just finishes). wondering if this is well known or used at all. i play claw so i feel like i'd be able to do it consistently with some practice.

 

[BRUJO~]

hey guys im fairly new to fox, seems like if you bair on the first possible frame of a short hop you land without lag (not sure if autocancel or the move just finishes). wondering if this is well known or used at all. i play claw so i feel like i'd be able to do it consistently with some practice.

Do you know if this is true in melee as well?

 

[Sneez]

im not sure, and i don't have melee atm so i cant test it

 

[Tomaster]

Hey guys how do you keep your momentum after nair-shining? Im having trouble getting follow ups.

Here's a match between boss and seagull joe to show what I mean
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sDhrrXvoUfs

Im trying to figure out how to do something like boss did in that match at 0:05 or 0:15 but I can't keep my momentum going after the first nair-shine. If I try to nair-shine again I can only do it in place and if i wavedash out I can't go far enough get follow-ups on most characters.
Can anyone help me out?

 

[Ghetto Blush]

he's wavedashing out of shine - there are a lot of characters you can't normally follow up on with wavedash out of grounded shine

 

[BRUJO~]

Hey guys how do you keep your momentum after nair-shining? Im having trouble getting follow ups.

Here's a match between boss and seagull joe to show what I mean
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sDhrrXvoUfs

Im trying to figure out how to do something like boss did in that match at 0:05 or 0:15 but I can't keep my momentum going after the first nair-shine. If I try to nair-shine again I can only do it in place and if i wavedash out I can't go far enough get follow-ups on most characters.
Can anyone help me out?

Google "how to waveshine ssbm"

 

[Tomaster]

ty i guess u just have to walk a bit more after Wdashing to get follow ups