Weeg v. MARTH

[Griffard]

Space animals are rough, Sheik can be difficult to overcome, Ganon is even a difficult matchup for Luigi sometimes, but the matchup I find hardest on average on all legal stages is likely the Marth matchup.

I want this thread to be a place where Luigis can talk about what they try to think about heading into the matchup, and to share pro strats 'n' tipz. (tips on not gettin' tipped)

So I'll start: one of my favorite secrets in this MU is

• NOT getting tipper forward smashed (AKA shield!!), and to
• WD oos for grab punishes.
• Up Throw does a lot and a nice range of percents.
• Stuff (including D throw sometimes)--> U Smash works frequently, and
• WDing U smash can work as a sweep in addition to
• U Tilt which is always great.
• WD off the stage with B air / other aerials for a quick surprise edgeguard can work often.
• Bairs from ledge are nice.
• Force Marth on stage with his recovery and SHORYUKEN

Does anyone have any COOL VIDEOS of this matchup? Old school or current, but new school preferred. Let's get a useful discussion going and be proud to be playing the most fun character in this amazing videogame!

-Griff

 

[Scarlet Bean]

Most Marths tend to just D-tilt against Luigi; this forces Luigi to approach in the air which is clearly disadvantageous for him considering that marth has a disjointed hitbox(ridiculous tipper f smash)and that Luigi is just awful in general when it comes to aerial movement.
I read somewhere that you can Down-B towards him which will clank with his D-tilt; from there on out, you can go for a grab, down smash, or even a shoryuken.
Hope this helps

 

[Zelbertoad]

I'm just going to post a link to ROFL's guide on how to beat Marth. It should really get stickied.
http://smashboards.com/threads/rofl-tells-you-how-to-beat-marth.91241/

I don't fight many good Marths so I can"t contribute other than the advice of not to approach Marth from above and to outspace Marth.

Edit:
Found some good example videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hwlnxj4w1ow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTG2SIrorJM

Ken's Marth Tutorial
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFCQIAnYUMM
-It shows some tactics Marth mains use. Very useful. For example, Marth can space away f-airs far away and use a close f-air that leaves you with little options.

 

[Griffard]

Thanks for the posts guys. Yes D tilt is definitely a BIG problem for Luigi, goes along with Marth's ftilt, side b and jabs as his quick ground control to keep him out. Really appreciate the links and videos, let's keep it up with Luigi content!

 

[Verda Stelo]

ROFL's guide is great and still rings true but we should try to analyze how Marths play now. Marth movement is generally much quicker and trickier these days, so I like to hang back until I can get a good read on it -- they won't approach you because they know you have a much harder time approaching them. What are some other new Marth technologies that we should be looking out for?

 

[Griffard]

What Marths do today now probably consists of more of the same plus more spacing attacks not to combo or set up an immediate kill, but to inconvenience you, juggle you in the air and tack on percent until you die from hopelessness and homesickness from the stage.

 

[Scarlet Bean]

Is it bad that I hate Battlefield as Luigi(since I mostly get up air'd by ganon and falcons)
I'm in love with Final Destination

 

[Griffard]

Is it bad that I hate Battlefield as Luigi(since I mostly get up air'd by ganon and falcons)
I'm in love with Final Destination

I mean I think hating Battlefield is a standard opinion as far as Luigi players go. I don't think it's the worst, but it's never my first choice.

FD is probably one of the best choices against Marth. At least for me, it is still difficult to space out a Marth, but you at least eliminate him being helped by platforms. The new problem of being upthrown and just kept in the air forever arises then however.

Let's talk Stages, where do you guys like to go against Marth? Let's say you're playing a real Bo3 set. Where do you want to try and strike to depending on what they strike? Where do you ban if you take game 1? Where do you counterpick them on a game 2 situation? Game 3 situation is the answer different?

Marth's will try to get Yoshi's, BF, or FoD for game 1, and you can only eliminate 2 of those. Your FD/Dreamland will almost surely get taken, otherwise go there. BF may actually be your best choice in this scenario. I prefer it vs. FoD sometimes because the on stage area is less cramped. Even though you can DI forever on FoD, you should be able to live for a while on BF too, and the lip of the stage can actually protect your down-b recovery sometimes. I prefer the increased offstage visibility too.

 

[Vist]

I mean I think hating Battlefield is a standard opinion as far as Luigi players go. I don't think it's the worst, but it's never my first choice.

FD is probably one of the best choices against Marth. At least for me, it is still difficult to space out a Marth, but you at least eliminate him being helped by platforms. The new problem of being upthrown and just kept in the air forever arises then however.

Let's talk Stages, where do you guys like to go against Marth? Let's say you're playing a real Bo3 set. Where do you want to try and strike to depending on what they strike? Where do you ban if you take game 1? Where do you counterpick them on a game 2 situation? Game 3 situation is the answer different?

Marth's will try to get Yoshi's, BF, or FoD for game 1, and you can only eliminate 2 of those. Your FD/Dreamland will almost surely get taken, otherwise go there. BF may actually be your best choice in this scenario. I prefer it vs. FoD sometimes because the on stage area is less cramped. Even though you can DI forever on FoD, you should be able to live for a while on BF too, and the lip of the stage can actually protect your down-b recovery sometimes. I prefer the increased offstage visibility too.

I'm probably not contributing much but here's how it goes for me usually:

(When I strike first)
I strike yoshis, they strike DL and FD, then I go to BF.

(When they strike first)
They strike DL or FD, I strike FoD and Yoshis, they pick BF.

If I win the first match, I'll ban yoshis and they'll go FoD or BF
If I lose the first match, they'll probably ban DL or FD, and I'll pick whichever they don't go to lol

 

[Griffard]

Pretty straight forward actually haha. Thanks for your input Vist. Just watched a lot of your videos actually, so nice to hear from good, active weegs

 

[Scarlet Bean]

Pretty straight forward actually haha. Thanks for your input Vist. Just watched a lot of your videos actually, so nice to hear from good, active weegs

Your avatar creeps me out dude lmao

 

[Griffard]

Isn't it fantastic?

Something fantastic against Marth in close range is mixing up jabs with f-tilts with jabs with grabs. Staying quick and unpredictable really helps.

 

[Verda Stelo]

Dash dance more! Luigi's dash is underrated and can be extremely effective in baiting out attacks when you don't want to commit to either the frames or the distance of a wavedash.

 

[Scarlet Bean]

Dash dance more! Luigi's dash is underrated and can be extremely effective in baiting out attacks when you don't want to commit to either the frames or the distance of a wavedash.

I totally agree with this, especially since luigi has such an amazing way of spacing in and out. We need to throw out more dash dances--possibly ending with a shield->grab(WDOoS depending on the situation) or wave dash back and in for a grab.
Verda is going to shoot luigi sky high in the tier lists I tell you--I can feel it

 

[Verda Stelo]

You flatter me Bean<3

I have to learn to apply my own advice first, then I might surpass players like Blea, Abate, and Eddy Mexico

 

[Yann J.Ridin]

Yo, what about get up attack edge guard on BF and DL?

 

[Scarlet Bean]

Personally, I think it's too long of a set up to commit to it. You could try wavedashing towards the edge and spot dodging just as you are about to reach. As most of you know, Luigi carries off the momentum of his wavedash even after an action,which, in this case, is the spot dodge; this allows luigi to slide off the stage just as the action animation is over. From there on out, do whatever you think is best.
Another way to edgeguard Marth is to simply just slide towards the ledge,grab it, fast fall and back air.

These are just theories. I have never fought a Marth main before.

 

[Zelbertoad]

One tip is to stay grounded with Luigi and not to approach with aerials when marth is on the ground. Marth's aerial game shuts down Luigi's aerial game.

Another tip is to force marth above the platforms and attack from below with f-airs and u-airs. F-air if you can predict where your opponent will roll. U-air to force marth off stage since he has a weak horizontal recovery.
Platform movement is one of luigi's greatest strengths.

Dash dance more! Luigi's dash is underrated and can be extremely effective in baiting out attacks when you don't want to commit to either the frames or the distance of a wavedash.

I agree with this. Also it helps to mix in wavedash approaches at the end of your dash dance. It's hard to pull off but it has been helpful for me to pressure opponents and threaten space.

Edit:
To those who haven't read ROFL's guide yet, please read it. It may be old but it is still helpful and applies because it's about the basics of beating Marth. New marths get their foundation from the metagame of the old marth that ROFL talks about beating.

 

[Verda Stelo]

As most of you know, Luigi carries off the momentum of his wavedash even after an action,which, in this case, is the spot dodge; this allows luigi to slide off the stage just as the action animation is over.

I call this the slippies.

And as for edgeguards, go with the classic Marth Killer! It's either a free punish or edgehog 90% of the time every time.

 

[BluEG]

Against a Marth who knows the Luigi matchup, stay the hell away from FD. He can juggle luigi all day with Uptilt and Upair.
If you sense they are a little iffy on the ins and outs, FD is a fantastic stage to go to.

 

[onehunna]

Quick question on this match-up. I've been having some trouble recovering hanging on the ledge versus Marth. Usually what happens is, the Marth will stand a few steps back from the ledge in perfect position to just wall me the heck out with tippers and forward airs and what have you. Sometimes after a waveland back onto stage from the ledge, my shield won't get up in time to block the incoming forward smash of dreadful doom and dark depression. In this thread Stride said:

I believe it's possible to do a perfect ledgedash to a buffered roll without leaving Luigi vulnerable, but I'll have to check. Very helpful against Marth in particular.

Can anyone go into a little more detail on this matter? And what else can I do to recover better off the edge in this match-up?

 

[Zelbertoad]

Quick question on this match-up. I've been having some trouble recovering hanging on the ledge versus Marth. Usually what happens is, the Marth will stand a few steps back from the ledge in perfect position to just wall me the heck out with tippers and forward airs and what have you. Sometimes after a waveland back onto stage from the ledge, my shield won't get up in time to block the incoming forward smash of dreadful doom and dark depression.

If he is far away enough you can try edgehopping fireballs at him to make an opening. Maybe you can roll to the stage at the right time when he f-airs.

The shield won't get up in time because it takes a few frames for it to come after a waveland or wavedash. Waveland farther away from the opponent and closer to the ledge if you want to get the shield up earlier to protect yourself. This depends on the stage and how close Marth is to you though. Try practicing waveshielding with different wavedash distances to get a feel for when the shield will come up.

 

[Griffard]

Quick question on this match-up. I've been having some trouble recovering hanging on the ledge versus Marth. Usually what happens is, the Marth will stand a few steps back from the ledge in perfect position to just wall me the heck out with tippers and forward airs and what have you. Sometimes after a waveland back onto stage from the ledge, my shield won't get up in time to block the incoming forward smash of dreadful doom and dark depression. In this thread Stride said:



Can anyone go into a little more detail on this matter? And what else can I do to recover better off the edge in this match-up?

I have the answers you seek, but they might not be the answers you want...

To recover to ledge against Marth, I think you have to go pretty low. By this I mean side-B until you're still around 5 character lengths from stage, then you're gonna have to down-b tornado recover. It's hard, but you have to learn how to do it. That way you can threaten a Marth who already took ledge, and Marth on stage has to be pretty ballsy to go down and under the stage (including Battlefield!) to hit you. After that you can aerial with your double jump on stage, or jump and air dodge, or, you can just use up all your recovery options sort of stalling off stage like Marth will do to you, then sweetspot the ledge. Ya gotta learn to sweetspot, or at least buffer a walljump tech/tech. If you don't know what I mean by this, RIGHT after you press Up-B for your attempted sweetspot, press L ONE time. If you press L or R more than one time, you will NOT tech and will not be able to tech after that if you hit another surface right away.

Once you made it to the ledge, now you gotta get on stage. Press back (not down imo) on the control stick from ledge and quick waveland on, and DURING your waveland, you should have L or R fully depressed and then hold your C-stick the direction you want to roll. I may be mistaken but there is also the possibility in this tech situation of an option-select where you may hit the opponent (or whiff completely ) a smash attack in the chosen c-stick direction.

Anywho main point is you must waveland (drop from ledge-->double jump-->air-dodge into stage-->c-stick roll) while you are still flashing white from invincibility from HAVING GRABBED ledge, not dropped FROM it. So it's a tight timing. Luigi is a slippery, funny character but the honest truth is that it takes a lot of technical skill to play him at a high level. Hope this was helpful! Gotta go to class.

 

[Verda Stelo]

Practice perfect ledgedashes. They are too good, especially for a character with a huge wavedash length that doesn't normally have amazing approach options, to ignore. People, even Marths, should be downright SCARED of you once you grab the ledge. I believe Yann J. Ridin discovered that Luigi can even invincibly Hax dash with frame perfect input. Blea Gelo has always told me that the ledge is your friend and that's the truth, especially versus people who think that Luigi doesn't have any viable recovery options.

 

[Stride]

I still haven't tested whether the perfect ledgedash->buffer roll leaves you vulnerable or not; TASing in Dolphin is awkward, especially with my terribly inadequate laptop. (Actually, while I'm here, does anyone else experience the problem where loading a save state in Dolphin while the game is paused using frame advance will cause the picture not to display until you advance a frame?)

Edit: I haven't been able to TAS this, but turning hitboxes on (thanks to the 20XX Hack Pack) and doing it manually confirms that Luigi can do a fully invincible ledgedash->buffer roll (assuming my eyes are fast enough to confirm that Luigi stays blue when doing it at 1/4 speed in training mode). The timing is very strict.

 

[TheHartChip]

I was thinking about this and what if you approached Marth with a fire ball out of a wave dash and then jump and go for an aerial?

Edit: I tried this and I was completely wrong to much lag to do it effectively.

 

[-ACE-]

I dont know for certain, but I'd bet hundreds that a perfect ledgedash, followed by an immediate jab, roll, or grab are all fully invincible until the hitbox/invulnerability begins.

Recovering against marth... It's not always safe to go low but sometimes you have no choice. Your best bet is to start off in a good position to begin with from good DI. If you are high up and far away, immediately side-b (since marth can't reach you) to get yourself closer to the stage and watch marth. Have your DJ and down-B saved, but know that it is best to NOT USE your down-B (ideally, that is, if it is safe) if possible. Drift closer to the stage and don't make a decision too soon (keep watching marth). Stop drifting toward the stage just before you get within his jump+ fair range and see what he does. You may have already baited the fair and recovery may have just gotten easier. Depending on the situation, you may be able to airdodge through marth, or even hit him since you still have your jump and a quiver of broken hitboxes. If marth does not challenge you and plays it safe, you have to go lower. If he's grabbing the ledge, try to dj uair him so that he has to roll/get up, then up-b. At any point if you need to be higher or closer to the stage, you have your down-b. Always be ready to tech.... Marth is basically the king of gimping while luigi is more like the king of getting gimped lol. You have to have patience and wait for him to leave an option uncovered.

 

[ChivalRuse]

That fireball recovery that Abate does is so OP.

I think bair out of shield is good in the matchup, but who knows lol.

 

[Verda Stelo]

Great post about recovery, Ace! I'd like to add that fast falling is an often overlooked technique in recovery. While you're drifting down and watching Marth (or any other character) you can react to their jump with a fadeaway fastfall and sometimes even secure the ledge before they can reassure their control of the stage.

Another thing about teching: a regular tech leaves you at the perfect horizontal spacing for a sweetspot ledgegrab. This is susceptible to a simple edgehog but as a Luigi main sometimes you just have to accept that your recovery isn't good enough. An immediate up B will take you to the platform on YS, though. Walljump teching isn't great for Luigi, your recovery choices get reduced to misfire on (and potentially back off >.<) stage or missile to the edge and up B back up.

 

[howcutru]

So weeg down-b has more priority if you start it in the air?

 

[Verda Stelo]

Not exactly, but yes. When you start the tornado in the air there is a small hitbox on your feet. Versus Marth in particular this is less helpful because of his disjointed hitboxes but you can use the tornado to alter your descent enough to get you back on solid ground.

Speaking of solid ground, I continue to struggle with my opinions on stages versus Marth. FD forces you to play to Luigi's ground game strength more honestly which is necessary versus Marth, but the punishment can be brutal for Luigi without platforms to tech, land, or edge cancel on. DL would seem to be the obvious choice if you can play with the appropriate discipline, but what Marth is going to let you go there? Or what if it's game 5 and your options are FoD or PS? Which do you pick?

 

[Scarlet Bean]

Not exactly, but yes. When you start the tornado in the air there is a small hitbox on your feet. Versus Marth in particular this is less helpful because of his disjointed hitboxes but you can use the tornado to alter your descent enough to get you back on solid ground.

Speaking of solid ground, I continue to struggle with my opinions on stages versus Marth. FD forces you to play to Luigi's ground game strength more honestly which is necessary versus Marth, but the punishment can be brutal for Luigi without platforms to tech, land, or edge cancel on. DL would seem to be the obvious choice if you can play with the appropriate discipline, but what Marth is going to let you go there? Or what if it's game 5 and your options are FoD or PS? Which do you pick?

I'd definitely go with PS

 

[TheHartChip]

I personally am a fan of Fountain. Not a lot of people tend to like it though. I personally don't mind the extra slipperyness. The only problem is that you get sent flying back more easily by shines and stuff of that nature.

 

[BluEG]

Dreamland is the best stage against Marth-plenty of space to move around and avoid his stupid hit boxes.

Pokestadium is always a good choice as well for similar reasoning.

Avoid Yoshi's story like the plague and you should be fine
Battlefield and FoD are meh but winnable

 

[spencer postal service]

When I was first learning how to play, I leaned pretty exclusively against a Marth who learned with me. After innumerable games, my personal list for stages in that matchup go:
1. DL64
2. Pokemon
3. Battlefield
4. Fountain/Yoshi's tie
6. everything else
7. FD
It wasn't that FD was unwinnable, it was that I died a slow, painful, up-air filled death most of the time. I had to be spectacular to really win without him screwing up.

In terms of approaching, I found down-b, up-angled f-tilt, and not approaching at all to be the best bets. Honestly, just running around, WDing back and forth, and throwing fireballs to force him to do something were very beneficial.

Also, just as a tidbit, if you're not player 1, you often start on a platform - not good vs Marth. HOWEVER, if you hold down at the beginning of the game, you fall through. I've only seen this with Luigi, so make use of it, because being on the ground faster is of utmost importance in this matchup.

 

[Hulka]

Dreamland IMO is the best stage in this match up. I have a pretty good Marth in my area that i play with a lot, and I'll dump my knowledge here. WD -> Shield (to bait out Fsmash) and spot dodge to punish, or take the hit, WD OOS while in hit stun, and punish with a down smash or something. Grab combos are a great way to rack up damage, up throw at low % into an up air, to chop, and down throw at higher percents into chop. If marth is spamming d tilt, WD F tilt goes over the d tilt and out ranges it, really good for getting marth off stage at high %. how i gimp marth is once hes off stage, i hold the ledge and wait for them to use their side B and punish the ending lag with a bair. Bair is AWESOME for gimping marth, which is my main tool for gimps. when you do get a grab with luigi though, try to combo as much as you can, and build up damage so you can gimp easier, that is very important

 

[JediLink]

D-tilt totally shuts down Luigi, but Tornado can clank with it and get you in. However if you get predictable with tornado approaches they can just grab you out of it.

As a Marth main, I absolutely hate Dreamland so pick that every time if they don't strike it. Whatever you do, just don't pick Marth Destination lol.