We need to do something. Together. As a community.

[egaddmario]

My GOD you guys are ridiculous. The game isn't even out yet and people are crying. Saying the game favors defensive play has no basis- we don't know the whole roster yet, never mind how the meta will develop.

This. Just this.

I liked Brawl better than Melee. The game was slower, but it felt good. Sweetspots felt more rewarding, matches between friends were always close, you could easily live to over 200%, which added suspense to games and made the mind games and strategizing incredible. You played Melee with your hands. You played Brawl with your head. Two different experiences. I played some P:M, and other than some very cool character buffs, I didn't like the feel as much as Brawl. To each his own.

Smash 4 looks awesome, and the gameplay to me looks how it should: a nice balance between both Melee and Brawl, with crisp visuals, a smooth engine and chaotic gameplay. I can't wait to play it, changed or not.

I agree with the bold so much. Melee was boring- if one person got hit, it was basically a stock. How is that fun for the player that gets caught? It's the same for ice climbers- if you got grabbed, you were dead. That's not fun for who got grabbed.

...and I'm relatively certain that those who are truly competitive are the minority of the player base. A very vocal minority, due to their passion. The majority probably doesn't really care about these things, and may not even notice them. -shrugs-

And that's where you're wrong- the casual scene does notice wavedashing and the like. I was in a Melee tourney at my college two years ago playing as Marth and placed against a Falco. The entire match he kept short hop lasering me to approach and then comboing once he was in. Rinse repeat. He ended up winning, and he was the only player using wavedashing. All of the matches were played on a projector and some people, the casuals i assume, kept wondering how he was moving so fast and "seemed to slide". Casuals CAN see wavedashing, they just have no idea what it is or how to do it. Those kinds of things create a rift in the community- not the competitive scene, but the casual vs competitive scene. No one wants to jump into a match, get comboed the whole time and lose miserably. It makes you not want to play. This is what Sakurai is trying to avoid, and i can't blame him. And to put things in perspective, i came in 4th in that tourney and 1st in the Brawl tourney we had later on with both tourneys having around 50 participates, so i'm no slouch at either game.

 

[Mechonis]

Perhaps I should have put "knows about" instead of notice.

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

TBH, most of the people who are making the "Brawl 2.0" complaints, haven't even touched the game. I say we wait till release before we make this kind of judgement.

 

[Senario]

My GOD you guys are ridiculous. The game isn't even out yet and people are crying. Saying the game favors defensive play has no basis- we don't know the whole roster yet, never mind how the meta will develop.
I agree with the bold so much. Melee was boring- if one person got hit, it was basically a stock. How is that fun for the player that gets caught? It's the same for ice climbers- if you got grabbed, you were dead. That's not fun for who got grabbed.
And that's where you're wrong- the casual scene does notice wavedashing and the like. I was in a Melee tourney at my college two years ago playing as Marth and placed against a Falco. The entire match he kept short hop lasering me to approach and then comboing once he was in. Rinse repeat. He ended up winning, and he was the only player using wavedashing. All of the matches were played on a projector and some people, the casuals i assume, kept wondering how he was moving so fast and "seemed to slide". Casuals CAN see wavedashing, they just have no idea what it is or how to do it. Those kinds of things create a rift in the community- not the competitive scene, but the casual vs competitive scene. No one wants to jump into a match, get comboed the whole time and lose miserably. It makes you not want to play. This is what Sakurai is trying to avoid, and i can't blame him. And to put things in perspective, i came in 4th in that tourney and 1st in the Brawl tourney we had later on with both tourneys having around 50 participates, so i'm no slouch at either game.

Gross misrepresentation, if you got hit it didn't mean a stock loss at all. Short hop falco lasers and his gameplay in general benefits from wavedashing but I assure you that he would've wrecked you regardless of it. Try crouching. I have played a lot against the falco match up and honestly if you get caught by lasers so much on approach you need to work on dealing with it. Also old school Ken style counters work if it is not the top level of play.

Casual players can notice it but how is it harmful? It is like me who is casual for playing ultimate marvel not initially understanding why when approaching an enemy the character seemed to be crouching a bunch then dashing. Or how dante can follow up a move after stinger without leaving the ground. I didn't understand at first but what I did understand was that those aspects didn't harm my enjoyment of the game even though I didn't know how to do them at the time.

 

[Ravioko]

Well, from what I saw in the Invitational, the game looked enjoyable. However, I'll be waiting until I play the game Saturday to give my opinions on how the game plays.

 

[egaddmario]

Gross misrepresentation, if you got hit it didn't mean a stock loss at all. Short hop falco lasers and his gameplay in general benefits from wavedashing but I assure you that he would've wrecked you regardless of it. Try crouching. I have played a lot against the falco match up and honestly if you get caught by lasers so much on approach you need to work on dealing with it. Also old school Ken style counters work if it is not the top level of play.

Casual players can notice it but how is it harmful? It is like me who is casual for playing ultimate marvel not initially understanding why when approaching an enemy the character seemed to be crouching a bunch then dashing. Or how dante can follow up a move after stinger without leaving the ground. I didn't understand at first but what I did understand was that those aspects didn't harm my enjoyment of the game even though I didn't know how to do them at the time.

That whole first paragraph plays into exactly what i was talking about, specifically the last line- casual players don't know the Ken style. They don't even know who Ken is.

EDIT- and it's harmful because it's frustrating if they keep losing and they might not want to play anymore. I have friends who throw fits when they lose if i'm glide tossing bananas when i casually play Diddy.

 

[RaptorHawk]

That whole first paragraph plays into exactly what i was talking about, specifically the last line- casual players don't know the Ken style. They don't even know who Ken is.

EDIT- and it's harmful because it's frustrating if they keep losing and they might not want to play anymore. I have friends who throw fits when they lose if i'm glide tossing bananas when i casually play Diddy.

They're throwing fits cause they're losing to something they don't understand. Me and my friends play Tekken casually, but if we were to play even a decent competitive player we would get wrecked. Having advanced techniques does NOT harm the game. It makes the game deeper. You NEED a skill ceiling for a game to be competitive. The higher the ceiling the more competitive potential it has. You can't have a high skill ceiling and not have people get frustrated over techniques they don't understand.

 

[Senario]

That whole first paragraph plays into exactly what i was talking about, specifically the last line- casual players don't know the Ken style. They don't even know who Ken is.

EDIT- and it's harmful because it's frustrating if they keep losing and they might not want to play anymore. I have friends who throw fits when they lose if i'm glide tossing bananas when i casually play Diddy.

And here is the thing, you don't expect casual players to win because they simply do not practice the game as much as much as a hypothetical competitive player. Nor should you. You expect the better player to win and in a lot of cases the amount of time spent playing the game against other people relates to how good a person is. Losing in general is frustrating but that is not a good argument to punish those at the top level of play.

I do think a new smash bros can be simple enough to understand in a competitive way. Pokemon certainly seems to be going into the right direction for accessibility. It supports the competitive scene while being accessible for people to get into. Smash could be the same way with lower landing lag across the board and better dash mechanics. No L cancelling or wavedashing needed.

 

[Fatmanonice]

This thread is just asking for trouble... There's plenty of other places where this is being discussed so this can simply be locked for the sake of preventing even more unnecessary arguments.