Wave-bouncing ... Necessary for Oli?

[Fautor Animus]

I recently learned about wave-bouncing from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53Wix_KsK5g

As I watched it, I thought to myself, this would be useful so that I am not forced to air control my f-b towards my enemy, granting me safe latches, more often than not. Your opinions?

 

[keeper]

It doesn't really push Olimar back enough to be usable, in my opinion.

 

[Capt. Oli]

Call me a noob, but I'd rather have my stick for smashes

 

[pesticide]

hmm i havent tried WBing w/ oli yet... *goes to try*

 

[Vayseth]

I dno, I think Oli's smashes need really strict timing to be really effective and smashes would be better. Throwing pikmin kinda sucks =(

 

[Rhyme]

Does WBing mean that you can't use the Cstick for DI anymore? I'd rather live a little longer than make it more convenient to throw pikmin at my opponent (which I hardly ever do anyway because it's a ****ty move IMO). I can imagine that this technique is going to do wonders for TL and Lucas though.

 

[joeysmash]

sacrificing my c-stick is a nono

 

[snowbonez]

i'm strictly on the Wiimote and Nunchucku diet, so i can't c-stick obviously. (****, i miss it though)...

 

[Wiseguy]

Watch part two of the video, he shows how useful this is with Olimar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG098jC4in0&feature=related

Great find! (The video that is.) I'll have to try this out.

 

[Rhyme]

Eh, it has an effect, but I wouldn't exactly say that it's a benefit. As always, throwing away your pikmin is never a good thing.

 

[mastergamerbrett]

Doesn't seem that useful.. at all.

 

[NC-Echo]

I just messed around with it for a little bit and I can see how it could be very good but for the time being I am not impressed with it enough to give up my C-stick smashes. Maybe it will turn out to be crucial for Olimar and I will have to eat my words. I'm gonna try playing more with it so that I can decide whether or not I think its worth it.

 

[Capt. Oli]

Echo doesn't like it.
[/thread]

 

[Fautor Animus]

I just think that if you're planning on doing a short-hop latch x2 to f-smash, it's somewhat easier if you just c-stick the latches, and then do the f-smash, cuz what is annoying is when i do my f-b, sometimes, i go straight into my opponent, cuz of air control. Also, the wave-bounce set up eliminates fast falling on the whistle.

 

[NC-Echo]

Well the main problem is that by employing this method you have to sacrifice C-stick aerials, which means you can't control direction while doing aerials, and combos will be easier to escape with good DI.

Edit:
I need to practice with this more before I speak to much about how useful it will be. I am wavering back and forth about whether or not I think it is worth losing the C-stick for.

 

[Vayseth]

The C-stick smashes with Olimar are just too useful. Also, you have to realize that it works TWO ways.

1. Jumps back after a side B.
2. If you do it while dashing and not jumping (I.e. dash forward and hit back on c-stick) it'll instantly short hop and turn them around. Not very juice for Oli, but REALLY good for Toon Link/Lucas, etc.

Oli's B moves aren't good enough to spam and his Bair isn't that good (fair's better) so it's not worth it.

 

[Yakt-NJ]

You can control the forward motion of your side B by pressing back on the joystick after pressing forward B; while Oli is recovering from the animation, you will move backwards just as much as you moved foward when doing the attack and be ready to do it again.

 

[Salaad]

lol oli just needs textbook comboo

his smashes are just beastly and its pretty crucial to have it on the c stick

 

[Super_Nostalgic]

I'd say it's pretty useful if you didn't C-Smash in melee. With Olimar, I personally like the quick smashes, But with my other mains, It's pretty godly. Then again, I havn't tried to RAR with Olimar yet. the Auto-RAR advantage with b-sticking is mighty tempting right now... I'd try it, but my folks are trying to sleep and the Wii's hooked up to the wall right behind their heads.

 

[NC-Echo]

Ok so I did a good bit of work with this and heres what I think about it.

It could definitely be very useful with Olimar it isn't insanely good like with Lucas but it adds variability and gives you more options so that your harder to predict (mindgames). However personally I have always used the C-stick for aerials and smashes, even during the years I played melee, so I am having a really hard time getting used to it. It also seems to be a little buggy; what I mean is that if you tap the C-stick too rapidly you will randomly jump and there doesn't seem to be any explanation as to why. Sometimes when I was spamming F-B, and maybe being a little overzealous with my use of the C-stick, Olimar would jump instead of F-B.

I may change my mind but for the time being I am viewing this tactic as something that could be useful in many ways but not to the extent that Lucas' is.

 

[whs]

It's pretty easy to convert to actual smashes, and the variety it adds is cool in my opinion. I use it.

 

[Oceanborn]

Well, not sure about the little 'push back' but the Pikmin Throw on the C-Stick is actually a good idea, one that I never really gave much thought on. I'll definitely try this out tomorrow. I don't use the C-Stick for anything else other than smashes anyway, and even then the C-Stick's unresponsive most of the time leaving me just standing there. But Wavebouncing huh? I gotta try that with Lucario.

 

[whs]

Lucario gets a nice push from it, almost as good as Lucas. They're the 2 best pushbacks from it, although Lucas uses it better. The way I see it though, is it's obviously a bit of an exploit, and there's a decent chance it will grow into something more, so I'm using it as my main control setup to get used to it and develop muscle memory incase someone finds more things involving it.

 

[Diskorde]

Ok so I did a good bit of work with this and heres what I think about it.

It could definitely be very useful with Olimar it isn't insanely good like with Lucas but it adds variability and gives you more options so that your harder to predict (mindgames). However personally I have always used the C-stick for aerials and smashes, even during the years I played melee, so I am having a really hard time getting used to it. It also seems to be a little buggy; what I mean is that if you tap the C-stick too rapidly you will randomly jump and there doesn't seem to be any explanation as to why. Sometimes when I was spamming F-B, and maybe being a little overzealous with my use of the C-stick, Olimar would jump instead of F-B.

I may change my mind but for the time being I am viewing this tactic as something that could be useful in many ways but not to the extent that Lucas' is.

The jump is because you actually c-stick "tilted". Doing a tilt on the c-stick will result in a neutral b, = something you can't do in the air = using your double jump because brawl is strange like that.

 

[NC-Echo]

The jump is because you actually c-stick "tilted". Doing a tilt on the c-stick will result in a neutral b, = something you can't do in the air = using your double jump because brawl is strange like that.

I'm not sure if I follow your explanation.

 

[nyhustler208]

Well the main problem is that by employing this method you have to sacrifice C-stick aerials, which means you can't control direction while doing aerials, and combos will be easier to escape with good DI.

Edit:
I need to practice with this more before I speak to much about how useful it will be. I am wavering back and forth about whether or not I think it is worth losing the C-stick for.

ive been using it for the past 2 days and i find it not really useful at all
olimar is a kinda charcter that needs the c-stick especially for gardinding the ledge but thats just my opinion.

 

[TrueRedemption]

Heres an update, turns out you can actually WB without changing the c stick to special. Its a quick timing, but i found the thread over in tactical, woked on it for half an hour or so, and am starting to get the hang of it. Its a little difficult to get the complete full effect, on top of the difficulty of the doing it to begin with, but some practice will most likely yield the desired results. Heres the thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=153970

So, theres that, for those of you who have/develop fast enough fingers to pull it off, how does this change your opinion? At least let this fuel more indepth discussion/consideration of how it could be used effectively, followed up with actually trying it in applicable situations in game. Obviously its somewhat useful for Latch, if the timing becomes second nature (and honestly, after about half an hour i was getting the move done successfully about 85% of the time already) and its figured out how to get the entire effect, if the entire effect is actually even that important, i feel it will very likely be easier for hopped Latching while effectively maintaining spacing.

(I'm sorry for my grammar/run ons, i'm exhausted tonight)

Whistle seems to create some weird momentum stuff, but i'm not positive how it'd be particulary useful, however like i said i'm tired and thorough thinking about anything is impossible right now

I actually was able to do this with UpB too a few times i tried. Just like the others you would do a directional changed UpB, but then cancel it to go the other direction the way WBing works but with only the joystick. Kinda made me wonder if theres any possible potential there, the slightly increased DI wasn't very noticeable, and i'm not even certain it was doing much at all but seemed to, slightly. Really can't think of any use, even non practical for this though. Also did it with pluck neutral B, noticed nothing significant, doubt theres any use there either.

Anyway just letting you guys know, if you like the increased ease/spacing on the latch its worth learning, once you get it a few times and realize how you've got to work the joystick to get it to work, muscle memory picks it up pretty easily, plus on Oli's WB you have to end up DIing naturally the direction anyway so a mistake in it shouldn't kill you, the most common mistakes result in you throwing a pikmin in the wrong direction and only having normal jump DI following it. I'm rambling though, so I'll just cut this off here and go to bed.



-True


(I actually fell asleep after writing this before hitting post, sadly enough)

 

[Fautor Animus]

I can see where Echo is coming from. Me, never having used the c-stick, find it slightly easier to have this for mid-air latches. I, ever since the first smash bros. have been good at pulling off smashes at lightning speeds, so I would assume that b-sticking is just a convention. Not necessarily necessary, but it might help against certain matchups. It's still awkward for me to use the c-stick, but i've been trying to get used to it. i never liked being a c-stick bandit anyway.

 

[Rhyme]

Ok so I did a good bit of work with this and heres what I think about it.

It could definitely be very useful with Olimar it isn't insanely good like with Lucas but it adds variability and gives you more options so that your harder to predict (mindgames). However personally I have always used the C-stick for aerials and smashes, even during the years I played melee, so I am having a really hard time getting used to it. It also seems to be a little buggy; what I mean is that if you tap the C-stick too rapidly you will randomly jump and there doesn't seem to be any explanation as to why. Sometimes when I was spamming F-B, and maybe being a little overzealous with my use of the C-stick, Olimar would jump instead of F-B.

I may change my mind but for the time being I am viewing this tactic as something that could be useful in many ways but not to the extent that Lucas' is.

-watches as he fails to state his position-

We all knew it was more effective with Lucas than with Olimar, nothing new there.

(I actually fell asleep after writing this before hitting post, sadly enough)

XDDD

So it can be done without the Csticking? Very good. Now if I ever wanted to pikmin spam (which I don't 'cause that's gay), at least I can continue using the Cstick to DI.

I find it unnecessary to use Cstick for anything but DI, actually. Back in Melee I only used it for CCDsmashes and the occasional SHUair out of a shield. It's really unnecessary if you're being precise.

 

[TrueRedemption]

If you have enough finger speed to do smash attacks as quickly with the joystick + A as they come out using the C stick, you shouldn't have much problem doing the WB technique without using the C-Stick. I'll admit I was the same way never using the c-stick till little over a year ago, I was a scrub and considered it sorta cheap and less pure than using the joystick, and felt i was just as fast my way as any incapable c-sticker. However I can also honestly say that once i learned to use it, my game play drastically improved. Granted I was a marth main, who can make a large amount of use of the c-stick, and also that around the same time I started using L-canceling and wavedashing, but those aside I do believe transitioning over to the c-stick for smashes and aerials helped me significantly. Being able to do a DAir without fast falling or a FAir without moving forward, it doesn't seem like much, but the little bit of fine tuning in your control over your character is huge for performance. It allowed me if nothing else to develop a great touch for tilts with the joystick, since i was no longer using it for smashes as well. This is all Melee though, and it must be said we are playing a new game, there is no promise that what happened for me in ssbm will help you similarly for brawl. For instance perhaps you want to change the c-stick for attacks. Any of you who haven't tried, this allows you to do tilts only using the cstick, so if you never developed the on command in the heat of battle touch required to pull off a tilt attack, maybe thats more valuable for you.

Until any technique is found that requires only a certain remapping of the controller, there is no right or wrong answer to how to format your own. It is good to try messing around with things, its most likely the only way a number of techniques will be found, and the only way a controller specific technique will be found. However, until that layout specific technique is found, discussing or arguing controller layouts is kinda like people fighting over which flavor ice cream is the best. Preferences don't make strong arguments for or against anything.


-True

 

[NC-Echo]

Don't be rude Rhyme there is no reason for hostility. I may not have come up with a concrete opinion but no one, that I had seen, had posted anything about the random jumping thing so there actually was something new there.

True, thanks a bunch for the info!

 

[Pyr0]

B stick is cool and all, but I much rather use the C stick for aerials.

Olimar's rising D-air spike is too godly to not use.

 

[The_NZA]

Not worth it for the aerial reason echo provided. Sure, you can throw pikmin easier while short hopping, but you cant down air without fast falling, forward air while jumping back, bair while jumping forward, and fast fall while up airing. All of these techniques are more useful than the potential to throw better (when Olimar is already pretty good at throwing pikmin).

 

[nmaster64]

It'd be very useful if you didn't have to sacrifice Cstick smashes...

 

[asob4]

i have been using b-sticking for a day or two now, i personally like it
in melee i barely used c-stick, my fingers are fast enough to smash at the same speed without the c-stick
i do miss the rising dair but the >b comes out way to fast and i just like it lol
the occasional double jump is a little annoying but whenever that happens i'm usually too far from the opponent to be punished for it
b-sticking is for me

 

[Fautor Animus]

I liked true's ultimatum on this. I now find B-sticking to be a hassle. I should try to use the c-stick for a rising d-air. Echo and True thank you for the extra information, I knew about the random jumping, but thought that was because I thought my finger had brushed the x-trigger. haha. This is a n00B question, I know, but how does one use the C-stick for DI?
On another note, has anyone tried b-sticking the chain? I find it somewhat useful to put some distance between me and my opponent mid-air.

 

[Diskorde]

I'm not sure if I follow your explanation.

Sorry I couldn't get to a computer before this to respond. The C-stick can be used to perform neutral B moves as well, try it with someone other than Olimar and you see that nudging the c-stick will, at times, perform neutral B instead of whatever direction you pressed. Plucking moves and other moves that can't be done unless on the ground (DK's ground pound), if done midair using the c-stick, will result in a second jump, for whatever reason. It's unfortunate for Olimar that his plucking motion has to be neutral B, accidental occurances of this is bound to happen, as opposed to a much more avoidable down B or something.

Unless you meant you jumped from the ground. Then I have no idea. But I'll assume you meant midair since this is a discussion on b-sticking.

 

[Sage2050]

honestly B-sticking is useless for just about everyone except lucas, who gets minor kiting uses from it.

 

[Fautor Animus]

honestly B-sticking is useless for just about everyone except lucas, who gets minor kiting uses from it.

incorrect, pika b-sticking a thunder is real good.

 

[colored blind]

As neat as this is, I'm not sure it's worth losing the versatility that the C-Stick gives you when using aerials. Losing C-Smashes doesn't bother me, as I can learn to smash the normal way. But, wavebouncing just doesn't seem...useful. It's neat, and useful for spacing sometimes, but it's something I'd only use occasionally, and something I could also learn to do with the regular controller setup. The Auto-RAR is nice, but I'm already used to RARing with the normal setup. I think I'll pass on the B-Stick until I find someone who uses it with a LOT of proficiency.