The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,979
-
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Was the Ness nerf intentional?
- Thread starter The_NZA
- Start date
ItalianStallion
Smash Journeyman
I still have a lot of fun playing with DDD. One of the more satisfying characters to land hits with (Fair, F-Smash, and DASH ATTACK!!!!!!!!). I love dash attacking my way through any move.
leelue
Smash Lord
Personally, I think DDDs dash attack is excellent and I think more moves should have light armor.
The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,979
I would like to revive this topic, since the changelist has been released and E_Tap recommended I hold off on complaints until I read the explanation/official changes. I realize there is an "atmosphere" of complaints and whiners (especially with the frame 1 spacies change) but I hope that doesn't take attention away from a civil and legitimate topic in the spirit of improving the game. I appreciate the time of backroom members to read this topic and I highly recommend they read comment #29 and #31 on page 1. I took a lot of time to formulate them, and they are the most liked comments on the topic, so I assume there is some degree of community support for my comments. I am a firm believer that Ness, as a character has a lot of potential but he also isn't in the "perfect" place design wise––I urge you to explore him as a character with me in this topic, and keep an open mind about the magnet in his overall play as a character.
Much of this post and subsequent posts is an overview of all hte arguments made. Honestly, I was much more eloquent in #29 and #31, but I thought having a full wrap up was a good way to rebump this topic that I think is very important. Feel free to skim or ignore this if you've kept up with the topic as some of it is repetition and organizing the chaos rather than new ideas.
Just as a general update, the changelist outlines these changes from 2.5-2.6 on magnet/shine.
-Down B can no longer roll, spot dodge, or jump upon absorbing a projectile while grounded
-Down B can be released during the absorb lag to go into the end animation afterwards, preventing rapid hitting projectiles like Fox's standing laser that can re-hit before the absorb lag ends from being able to trap him in it
-Down B absorb lag has been greatly reduced (The Ness skype group standard toaster calculates 20 10 frames of lag now)
For Shine:
-Down B can be released during the reflect lag to go into the end animation afterwards, preventing rapid hitting projectiles like Fox's standing laser that can re-hit before the reflect lag ends from being able to trap him in it
Overall, what I hypothesized in 2.6a was true: defensive options out of magnet were greatly reduced. Ness can no longer spot dodge, roll, or jump from the ground, and in the air he is still locked into magnet. Because of the lag reduction, magnet absorb was slightly buffed in the air and heavily nerfed on the ground. The only change 2.6b brought is, now you can drop the magnet in face of quick succession projectiles so you aren't trapped in magnet (This is what Burnsey was complaining about on page 1). You will see, the shine also received this change, so this is a universal "magnet/reflector" design choice. The shine/magnet change doesn't actually reduce the lag of the moves, but it does prevent being trapped.
Now, I've combed the topic and I see a few arguments explaining the change to magnet.
A. 2.5 Magnet is Badly Designed:
Burnsy-
I asked about this and was told that not having lag would mean that his absorb is without commitment and that would be bad design.
Leelue-It shouldn't matter if a character is good or not, a well designed character shouldn't be able to do certain things.
Completely invalidating something as rudimentary as another character's projectile is one of those things, which is what a lagless absorption move would do.
My Comments:
1. I do not agree it is without commmitment. Anytime you use magnet, you are locked into magnet until frame 11 before you can cancel it into a jump/dj. In 2.5, if you absorbed on the ground, you could immediately jump/roll out of absorb lag. This creates a projectile bait game, where the opponent can trick ness into entering magnet as part of the counterplay. Lets say falco SHL's, but drops fast enough to cancel the laser. If I enter the magnet close to him, he has a free dair on me. By contrast, if I absorb the laser, I can roll forward and get punished, jump up and be responded to (due to Ness's slow jump), spot dodge and be smashed, or roll back and lose positional ground. There's a guessing game there that puts considerable pressure (and opportunity) for the opponent to punish Ness for punishing his energy projectile.
2. Instead of thinking of game balance in a vaccum, consider what moves means in terms of real characters and interactions. Theoretically, a JCable move that negates energy projectiles might seem "safe" because, experientially characters with JCable moves have been unpunishable. But those characters were spacies and sonic: Characters with fast hitboxes and quick jump speeds/mobility, and moves with decent range. Ness is a character without those things, and he isn't NEARLY as safe as they are by having these options. I made this point in post #29/31, but essentially if you start thinking of moves in a vaccum, you will quickly realize that Quickdraw, Pikachu's usmash, and a handful of other moves seem theoretically broken by gamedesign standards. But they work on the characters they are on. We should always design this game around our characters and their interactions rather than some theoretical ideal of game design.
Much of this post and subsequent posts is an overview of all hte arguments made. Honestly, I was much more eloquent in #29 and #31, but I thought having a full wrap up was a good way to rebump this topic that I think is very important. Feel free to skim or ignore this if you've kept up with the topic as some of it is repetition and organizing the chaos rather than new ideas.
Just as a general update, the changelist outlines these changes from 2.5-2.6 on magnet/shine.
-Down B can no longer roll, spot dodge, or jump upon absorbing a projectile while grounded
-Down B can be released during the absorb lag to go into the end animation afterwards, preventing rapid hitting projectiles like Fox's standing laser that can re-hit before the absorb lag ends from being able to trap him in it
-Down B absorb lag has been greatly reduced (
For Shine:
-Down B can be released during the reflect lag to go into the end animation afterwards, preventing rapid hitting projectiles like Fox's standing laser that can re-hit before the reflect lag ends from being able to trap him in it
Overall, what I hypothesized in 2.6a was true: defensive options out of magnet were greatly reduced. Ness can no longer spot dodge, roll, or jump from the ground, and in the air he is still locked into magnet. Because of the lag reduction, magnet absorb was slightly buffed in the air and heavily nerfed on the ground. The only change 2.6b brought is, now you can drop the magnet in face of quick succession projectiles so you aren't trapped in magnet (This is what Burnsey was complaining about on page 1). You will see, the shine also received this change, so this is a universal "magnet/reflector" design choice. The shine/magnet change doesn't actually reduce the lag of the moves, but it does prevent being trapped.
Now, I've combed the topic and I see a few arguments explaining the change to magnet.
A. 2.5 Magnet is Badly Designed:
Burnsy-
I asked about this and was told that not having lag would mean that his absorb is without commitment and that would be bad design.
Leelue-It shouldn't matter if a character is good or not, a well designed character shouldn't be able to do certain things.
Completely invalidating something as rudimentary as another character's projectile is one of those things, which is what a lagless absorption move would do.
My Comments:
1. I do not agree it is without commmitment. Anytime you use magnet, you are locked into magnet until frame 11 before you can cancel it into a jump/dj. In 2.5, if you absorbed on the ground, you could immediately jump/roll out of absorb lag. This creates a projectile bait game, where the opponent can trick ness into entering magnet as part of the counterplay. Lets say falco SHL's, but drops fast enough to cancel the laser. If I enter the magnet close to him, he has a free dair on me. By contrast, if I absorb the laser, I can roll forward and get punished, jump up and be responded to (due to Ness's slow jump), spot dodge and be smashed, or roll back and lose positional ground. There's a guessing game there that puts considerable pressure (and opportunity) for the opponent to punish Ness for punishing his energy projectile.
2. Instead of thinking of game balance in a vaccum, consider what moves means in terms of real characters and interactions. Theoretically, a JCable move that negates energy projectiles might seem "safe" because, experientially characters with JCable moves have been unpunishable. But those characters were spacies and sonic: Characters with fast hitboxes and quick jump speeds/mobility, and moves with decent range. Ness is a character without those things, and he isn't NEARLY as safe as they are by having these options. I made this point in post #29/31, but essentially if you start thinking of moves in a vaccum, you will quickly realize that Quickdraw, Pikachu's usmash, and a handful of other moves seem theoretically broken by gamedesign standards. But they work on the characters they are on. We should always design this game around our characters and their interactions rather than some theoretical ideal of game design.
The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,979
3. Many moves in smash apply pressure without intense commitment. Think about jumping out of shine, or short hop laser or shorthop razerleaf. There are plenty of moves in the game that defy this scrutiny of “perfect game design”. If anything, the beauty of 2.5 magnet is that it applies unique pressure to overtly non-committal playstyles that forces Falco’s brainless BnB SHL rinse repeat strategies against all characters to change in this matchup. All the while, this mechanic doesn't affect too many other matchups or playstyles.
Most energy projectile users are fast, not centralized on their projectiles. You have: ZSS, Pit, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Samus, Lucario, Mario, Luigi, ROB, Zelda (let’s ignore char/bowser’s flamebreath). ZSS, Pit, Fox, Falco, Wolf, and Mario can easily punish Ness’s options and still gain advantages by baiting magnet and intelligently following up. Luigi isn’t overcentralized on his fireball play anyways. ROB, I have no idea about (but I have a feeling he won’t be out of tools to combat Ness), and Zelda’s dins fire still have a lot of utility at zoning ness out. When you analyze the REAL characters it affects, you realize that the magnet applies real pressure to these characters without completely nullifying their core gameplay.
4. I would argue the 2.5 magnet (and furthermore, a magnet buff that allows him to jump out of aerial absorb lag) makes Ness a more interesting and better character for the game.
Ness is a character with horrible range, in general unique but bad mobility. His only space control is his pkfire, which in general, means if you can patiently turtle Ness out and control space, you can create great opportunities to kill him while keeping yourself safe.
In 2.6, magnet’s role is to assist a campy Ness. A Ness who can keep a safe distance while absorbing projectile spam. The thing is…Ness can’t apply pressure from afar. You never want to be too far away from your opponent as Ness, because you have no great options from afar. We should, as a community, reward Ness for playing aggressively, since that is where his toolset shines. If Magnet was actually improved so that you could jump out of it in the air, you could see Magnet used to stuff out an opponent’s web of traps, and keep them feeling unsafe where in other matchups, they would have felt completely comfortable throwing their SHL’s and unraveling their opponent’s plans.
When Ness gets stuffed out by projectiles, he REALLY gets stuffed out, and I think a very good magnet is exactly what Ness needs to take full advantage of his short range and DJC attacks to put on pressure in certain matchups.
Kink put it very well:
Ness essentially HAS to make the opponent play the game how he wants, or he else loses the 1on1 in basic game mechanics.
Call them gimmicks if you want, but they are needed in order for a character like Ness -- that is, a character intentionally designed to not have fundamental strengths -- to do well.
Returning Magnet to it’s 2.5 strength and even further buffing it so he can jump out of aerial magnet absorb lag would be good at making Ness the aggressor, all while not terribly affecting any of his matchups. Think about how many people actually complained about magnet invalidating their projectile game in 2.5: I don’t think I ever saw a complaint once. If anything, visiting and buffing magnets absorption options could set a very good standard for the game. It helps promote a “game of matchups” that makes characters with safe projectile approaches cerebrally adapt to new playstyles, rather than instinctually bait out every opponents’ approaches in a safe and stale way.
The only other arguments I saw in the topic were the following.
B. Ness’s Absorb should be subjected to the same rules as the Spacies
Malart- Seeing as the magnet is just another form of shine, that they share this trait with falco, wolf, and fox, who can't jump out of a reflected projectile.
My Response: Shine and Magnet are not attached to the same type of characters, and they aren’t the same thing.
A Vehicle was kind enough to provide a simple comparison between absorb and shine:
Absorb
Pros:
-Lowers Percent
-Negates Damage
-Cancellable by frame 11 in case nothing is absorbed
Cons:
-Has a lag to it
-Only useful against some missiles
-No harm is done to the opponent
Shine
Pros:
-Negates Damage
-Bounces back damage and knockback
-Works on any projectile
-Cancellable at any given moment
-Has no lag
Cons:
-Once hit, stuck in stun (true for everyone except for falco)
I don’t think shine and magnet are the same, because shine ends your opponents pressure back at them, requiring them to take the time to avoid it or eat it. Ness’s magnet ensures no such safety. But beyond that, look at the characters these attributes are attached to. Falco, Fox, Wolf, all thrive in approaching. All of them, in their mobility and fastfalling have no problems applying pressure on an opponent using projectiles. Hell, they don’t even NEED their reflective properties to apply considerable pressure and navigate a maze of projectiles. If they could jump out of shine reflect, it might even be bad for the game because there are already too few instances of locking the spacies down.
But Ness would actually thrive as a character if magnet was tailored around him rather than built on arbitrary precedents established by characters that are nothing like him.
C: This is how the magnet was employed in Melee and as far as we know, this is how it was always intended to be in PM.
My only argument here is, nothing is sacred from Melee. We can and will (and maybe even have) designed a better game. Also, this game has inherited tech from Brawl and Ness being able to cancel magnet into options was available there.
Most energy projectile users are fast, not centralized on their projectiles. You have: ZSS, Pit, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Samus, Lucario, Mario, Luigi, ROB, Zelda (let’s ignore char/bowser’s flamebreath). ZSS, Pit, Fox, Falco, Wolf, and Mario can easily punish Ness’s options and still gain advantages by baiting magnet and intelligently following up. Luigi isn’t overcentralized on his fireball play anyways. ROB, I have no idea about (but I have a feeling he won’t be out of tools to combat Ness), and Zelda’s dins fire still have a lot of utility at zoning ness out. When you analyze the REAL characters it affects, you realize that the magnet applies real pressure to these characters without completely nullifying their core gameplay.
4. I would argue the 2.5 magnet (and furthermore, a magnet buff that allows him to jump out of aerial absorb lag) makes Ness a more interesting and better character for the game.
Ness is a character with horrible range, in general unique but bad mobility. His only space control is his pkfire, which in general, means if you can patiently turtle Ness out and control space, you can create great opportunities to kill him while keeping yourself safe.
In 2.6, magnet’s role is to assist a campy Ness. A Ness who can keep a safe distance while absorbing projectile spam. The thing is…Ness can’t apply pressure from afar. You never want to be too far away from your opponent as Ness, because you have no great options from afar. We should, as a community, reward Ness for playing aggressively, since that is where his toolset shines. If Magnet was actually improved so that you could jump out of it in the air, you could see Magnet used to stuff out an opponent’s web of traps, and keep them feeling unsafe where in other matchups, they would have felt completely comfortable throwing their SHL’s and unraveling their opponent’s plans.
When Ness gets stuffed out by projectiles, he REALLY gets stuffed out, and I think a very good magnet is exactly what Ness needs to take full advantage of his short range and DJC attacks to put on pressure in certain matchups.
Kink put it very well:
Ness essentially HAS to make the opponent play the game how he wants, or he else loses the 1on1 in basic game mechanics.
Call them gimmicks if you want, but they are needed in order for a character like Ness -- that is, a character intentionally designed to not have fundamental strengths -- to do well.
Returning Magnet to it’s 2.5 strength and even further buffing it so he can jump out of aerial magnet absorb lag would be good at making Ness the aggressor, all while not terribly affecting any of his matchups. Think about how many people actually complained about magnet invalidating their projectile game in 2.5: I don’t think I ever saw a complaint once. If anything, visiting and buffing magnets absorption options could set a very good standard for the game. It helps promote a “game of matchups” that makes characters with safe projectile approaches cerebrally adapt to new playstyles, rather than instinctually bait out every opponents’ approaches in a safe and stale way.
The only other arguments I saw in the topic were the following.
B. Ness’s Absorb should be subjected to the same rules as the Spacies
Malart- Seeing as the magnet is just another form of shine, that they share this trait with falco, wolf, and fox, who can't jump out of a reflected projectile.
My Response: Shine and Magnet are not attached to the same type of characters, and they aren’t the same thing.
A Vehicle was kind enough to provide a simple comparison between absorb and shine:
Absorb
Pros:
-Lowers Percent
-Negates Damage
-Cancellable by frame 11 in case nothing is absorbed
Cons:
-Has a lag to it
-Only useful against some missiles
-No harm is done to the opponent
Shine
Pros:
-Negates Damage
-Bounces back damage and knockback
-Works on any projectile
-Cancellable at any given moment
-Has no lag
Cons:
-Once hit, stuck in stun (true for everyone except for falco)
I don’t think shine and magnet are the same, because shine ends your opponents pressure back at them, requiring them to take the time to avoid it or eat it. Ness’s magnet ensures no such safety. But beyond that, look at the characters these attributes are attached to. Falco, Fox, Wolf, all thrive in approaching. All of them, in their mobility and fastfalling have no problems applying pressure on an opponent using projectiles. Hell, they don’t even NEED their reflective properties to apply considerable pressure and navigate a maze of projectiles. If they could jump out of shine reflect, it might even be bad for the game because there are already too few instances of locking the spacies down.
But Ness would actually thrive as a character if magnet was tailored around him rather than built on arbitrary precedents established by characters that are nothing like him.
C: This is how the magnet was employed in Melee and as far as we know, this is how it was always intended to be in PM.
My only argument here is, nothing is sacred from Melee. We can and will (and maybe even have) designed a better game. Also, this game has inherited tech from Brawl and Ness being able to cancel magnet into options was available there.
Bryonato
Green Hat
Welp, that says everything I could ever want to say on the subject. All I have now are petty complaints and other character suggestions.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
The absorb holding lag is 10 frames btw. It was 20 before
ItsRainingGravy
Smash Ace
Someone get The_NZA into the backroom, please.
Red(SP)
Smash Journeyman
I laughed way too hard reading this entire thread.
Homeboy puttin' in the work.
Homeboy puttin' in the work.
hotdogturtle
Smash Master
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2007
- Messages
- 3,503
Can I like a like? lol
mudkyp
Smash Apprentice
I've played extensively with NZA/Flow and not only is he a great player, but he would be a wonderful asset to the backroom team and has extensive knowledge on smash, especially Ness. I'm pretty sure Mofo and him had a LOT of Ness discussion at Mass Madness as well. Would love to see what ideas Flow could bring to the Ness metagame.
(still don't think PK Fire should activate on shield though
)
(still don't think PK Fire should activate on shield though
)
210stuna
Smash Lord
Many walls of text in this thread.
I like it.
Where can I try out for the Ness team? NZA should be the leader!
I like it.
Where can I try out for the Ness team? NZA should be the leader!
I've always believed both PSI Magnets should only be JC-able on absorb only.
Then again, I've felt that Lucas was brutally mangled in his second iteration because of the misguided thought process of a player who was not actually good at Smash, and just wanted to get easy wins withher his character.
Then again, I've felt that Lucas was brutally mangled in his second iteration because of the misguided thought process of a player who was not actually good at Smash, and just wanted to get easy wins with
The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,979
If Ness/lucas could only JC out of it on absorb...it wouldn't have the cool uses it does now.
Also, I don't know who your passive aggressive swipe is at, but I'll take SB liking it as an indication that its good entertainment.
*grabs popcorn*
I have little to no experience playing or meaningfully observing Ness, so I can't really comment on the impact of JC Magnet on his game, but I know from my own play with Lucas, and from observation of his play in others that I feel the current Magnet mechanics are degenerate and, simply put, stupid. But like I said, I've been a vocal opponent of the many ways Lucas has been changed after his first appearance since they appeared--actually, since before they even appeared in the test-bed, before the primary culprit was even accepted into the PMBR, and I've been more or less alone in this opinion, the whole time, from what I can tell. I think I'm the only person who gets angry about characters he likes getting unrestrained and non-sensical buffs.
The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,979
Name nameeees bruh. Let's bring Jerry in here!
also whoever suddenly beats a normally-melee purist in tournament
their character is now baby hedgehog hitler
their character is now baby hedgehog hitler
Kayo
Smash Apprentice
Those are good reasons! This is pretty much my only compliant with P:M Ness atm.
This is a damn good thread, NZA.
Fingers crossed for 3.0 Magnet absorb lag JCable and The_NZA for PMBR. That is all
This is a damn good thread, NZA.
Fingers crossed for 3.0 Magnet absorb lag JCable and The_NZA for PMBR. That is all