Wario:****tin on ppl since 1992! A wario mu discussion

[Kuro~]

OK! Lets get this ball rollin. Any discussion relevant to mu will be discussed here ratios at the bottom of your post dont post a ratio w/o specific relevant info. k thx.

relevant being...
advantages/disadvantages of stages
cp's
ban's
bread n' butter moves
Things to watch out for
How to approach it
things to keep in mind
etc. etc.





Go!

ALL MATCHUP THREADS WILL NOW BE APPROXIMATELY 2 WEEKS IN LENGHT. The ones that are finished early good. We can then move on. So work as quick as possible to get as many PoV as possible!! The faster you guys discuss the faster matchups will be done by me!!!!

And if u guys don't provide sufficient information to where i am comfortable in writing a summary if i have no prior knowledge myself. It won't be done till it has that sufficient amount. End of story. No exceptions. Unless i'm feeling happy-go-luckay(pun intended >3>)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZlvdjXGn8U

Gotta listen to this while disucssing >.>

 

[pitskeyblade]

Thanks Kuro. :3
I've done some training this past weekend that involved Wario which I will summarize once I get a proper keyboard (I'm typing this via Wii atm lol.)

 

[Kuro~]

Wario is literally one of my top mu in knowledge and experience. Right up there with snake

So i plan on doing a post of epicness after i finish these mandatory courses.

 

[Xcallion]

lots of arrows+tire control. dont try to fight him in the air if you can, because of that crazy fast air move speed.

 

[Krystedez]

Outspace him like you're marth but run like you're Falco without a godly forward B.

Get it in.

Etc...

I like this MU, I'can give a better opinion when I'm not busy

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i have some good knowledge of this MU, and i also have some experiance in it, however it's not one of my best MUs but im no shab at it. someone start a topic about this MU and ill happily put in my 2 cents, however i don't think ill be the one to pick a subject to start it off with.

 

[Kuro~]

Let's start with stages.

I have found that it goes lylat-->--->battlefield--->Yoshi's island--->(BF and YI exchangeable on preference)--->Final D--->smashville

In order of best to worst for starters.

My fav counterpicks are lylat-->FD--->frigate--->delphino--->halberd.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

ya, don't take wario to smashvilled if you can avoid it. having space is imperative in this MU so you can avoid his nair. seriously i hate how wario can nair us all the way across a stage at low-mid percents. it's dumb. and on smashville, it's hard to avoid.

however, i agree with lylat and YI and BF and FD. straight up those stages are good, lylat especially because of grab releases. YI is good for that reason to, but we can't go under it and the air release points aren't as easy to use as lylat's.

 

[Kuro~]

I like YI cuz the large central platform. And cuz it facilitates ground combat(especially ours) nicely. Also let's us edgeguard wario easier.

I don't like smashville cuz wario can easily just camp the platform by abusing his bike. It's pretty dumb. If the wario is semi-aggro/not doing that i love smashville. So easy to play gay there. And it's easier for him to get in our pressure zones on sv.

Eh i don't mind nair that much. He actually can't nair to nair to nair or anything like that cuz his jump startup is like second worst behind snake iirc.

Edit:@first point. Granted it's not easy to ledgeguard wario anyways but it does take away his option to travel under the stage like us. Which helps a bunch.However if u know what ur doing u can easily rack up some easy peasy damage from edgeguarding.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

he can nair to nair. if he hit's you with the first hit, it combos into the second hit which has enough stun to where he can do it again from what i've experianced.. sure he has to be moving forward and FFautocancelling the second hit, but anyone who mains wario can do that np (as anyone who mains a character should be able to autocancel their aerials properly). WOI doesn't stop it, you can sidestep both hits, and from what i've tried you just have to accept that you about to take like 30% or more after followup from all the nairs.

an ya, i agree, YI does cater to our ground game. it's just that for me, going under the stage is very important.

 

[Kuro~]

Uh i'm pretty sure we can shield or uptilt b4 the second nair. Just hold down. Then again most warios find it more rewarding to nair to grab or bite or the occasional mix-up of fsmash. Basically nair is an amazing move regardless.

 

[bassem6]

Havent played any great pits as of late. But some things I noticed...

1) Wario kills pit earlier than pit kills wario

2) Nair oos is quite effective against pit, as is predicting where he's going to land and shieldgrabbing.

3) I feel as if pit can be easily juggled by wario's up-air. His dair has a bit of startup and is easy to see coming and his airdodge isnt hard to punish either.

Good stages for wario would be bf, smashville, brinstar, frigate, and maybe rainbow? I say this because besides a sour spot bair and maybe nair, pit doesnt have much to really gimp wario with whereas all wario has to do is get pit with a nair or something while hes using wings of icarus to gimp him.

Overall I would say the MU is 55-45 wario. Wario has better tools at his disposal but its mainly dependent on the players skill IMO

 

[Kuro~]

Havent played any great pits as of late. But some things I noticed...

1) Wario kills pit earlier than pit kills wario

2) Nair oos is quite effective against pit, as is predicting where he's going to land and shieldgrabbing.

3) I feel as if pit can be easily juggled by wario's up-air. His dair has a bit of startup and is easy to see coming and his airdodge isnt hard to punish either.

Good stages for wario would be bf, smashville, brinstar, frigate, and maybe rainbow? I say this because besides a sour spot bair and maybe nair, pit doesnt have much to really gimp wario with whereas all wario has to do is get pit with a nair or something while hes using wings of icarus to gimp him.

Overall I would say the MU is 55-45 wario. Wario has better tools at his disposal but its mainly dependent on the players skill IMO

1)agreed but the difference lies in that wario will have trouble landing that kill move while pit won't be killing till 180+.

2)I feel grabbing is better as pit is suppose to stay VERY grounded in this mu. It's what he thrives on. But if u do get pit in the air a nair oos could cover more options.

3)once in the air wario can easily land 2-3 upairs depending upon several variables.

4)pit isn't gonna gimp wario. It's so unlikely to happen. Possible definitely cuz we DO have the tools. But most competent warios don't get gimped. Except by mk and even that's semi-infrequent.

5)don't expect to gimp a pit playing right. Your best bet is landing fart offstage.

6)I agree with that ratio/idea. I use to not agree w/it but over time as i've gained experience with several warios in florida i changed my view.

 

[pitskeyblade]

Pretty sure we can't utilize the grab releases cuz when we grab Wario his feet remain on the ground. I think the grab release only works if Wario is off the ground and because Pit is a relatively short character, Wario is on the ground when we grab him. The lack of the grab release advantage could be one of the reasons why this MU kinda sucks for us.

 

[Kuro~]

Pretty sure we can't utilize the grab releases cuz when we grab Wario his feet remain on the ground. I think the grab release only works if Wario is off the ground and because Pit is a relatively short character, Wario is on the ground when we grab him. The lack of the grab release advantage could be one of the reasons why this MU kinda sucks for us.

Wario literally can't get in on us that easy. Once i realized this and started thinking *don't go for kills* this mu became 100% easier.

Also maha mentioned GR cuz on lylat we can...and YI sometimes.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

yep, which is why i would rather play him there then any flat stage, GR>bair ftw

 

[Krystedez]

Go for Lylat, YI, Ps1, all of which can be considered neutrals with Ps1 sliding back and forth by region I would guess.

Also SV is good if you can grab him on the edge of the platform moving slowly.

Finally, there's always Brinstar's uneven areas, if you're as good as me or AP is at that stage (AP is great at it, he talks about it a lot for a reason...)

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Kuro: I disagree with ps1.That stage kinda tilts it in warios favor. Idk why you would willingly go there. There are def better choices. But ya i know what you mean. Mmmm i should play AP at brinstar and steal some of his tactics.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

ya i wouldn't go to Ps1 either. going under the stage is important against wario.

okay, topic.

that grab, that bite grab, that fsmash, that sh dair, that uair, that nair, and that waft. how do you beat it?

 

[Kuro~]

Yo maha, you just ****ing like...read my mind. I was about to bump this **** with an epic post.


Alright so the match starts...what do you do?

I personally like to start the match by shooting an arrow still. It's simple, tells you a few things, and safe. And it encompasses this mu in the message it sends. Get ready for a camp fest.

Kk one of the biggest things that can truly only come from experience is YOU MUST KNOW WHEN HE IS ZONING IN ON YOU/TRYING TO BAIT YOU INTO AN ACTION.

I wish i could find where koolaid posted the videos of him vs malcolm cuz i had a pretty legit post there for describing certain aspects of this mu...

anyone mind refreshing my memory on where that post was? I searched both the critique thread and the video thread and the social thread and couldn't find it

anyways...


Tires...how to beat tires 101:

Stay grounded.

Nair

Sh retreating uair.

That's it.

Tire shenanigans possibility of landing automatically gets limited if you learn to stay grounded(what this mu requires anyways).

You can't punish auto canceled dairs from above(good warios will know the spacing so it will autocancel when they land).

That being said...wario shouldn't be landing too many dairs in this mu.

Retreating nair, froll, SH uair, and dash-->shield are all effective tools at keeping the scenario neutral. Now for your specific scenarios...




Wario's grab: Best thing i can say is watch your spacing. Safe moves on shield from grab are FH retreating dair, SH nair, jab, dtilt.

Wario's bite: If gets this far into your zone with you stuck in shield long enough for a bite then you already messed up. That being said if you read a falling bite from above...again just dash away. However he'd be better off using normal grab as it does more dmg and can often put u in a worse position due to more KB.

How to punish whiffed bites:Charged fsmash, charged dsmash, ftilt. If your at mid% anywhere from 0-76 use charged fsmash. If your between those and 120 use dsmash. If your anything after those use fsmash or ftilt(ftilt at ledge). Oh ya i don't mean fully charged btw. Just a bit so you can punish the ending animation of bite and get more dmg from it. If they don't hold the bite then just ftilt. The angle is beneficial for us lol.

The clap: Your best bet when you're in the air like that is wait, FF airdodge, or to use 2 jumps then glide away, Jump->dair INSTANTLY, WoI away, use all jumps to get out of range, b-reverse mirror shield. The option you choose should be chosen based on the height you are at.



The waft: DON'T GLIDE TOWARDS A WARIO WHO'S TRYING TO EDGEGUARD YOU AFTER HE THREW YOU. Other than that...choose the safest options. Wario should have suuuuuch a hard time landing the waft on pit. It really comes down to a technical error or a super hard read. Which is good for you. Cuz you should be keeping it simple 90% of the time. Safest option always.

Fsmash: This shouldn't be giving you enough trouble to warrant a topic on how to stop it.

If your getting fsmashed that many times your not choosing the right options. Idk what else to say other watch your spacing =/

K this covers those. I plan on going more indepth later and do my personal opinion on this mu. I feel like laxing for a bit.

Maha/krystedez add some tire/bike shiz in your posts real quick. I wanna compare what we do w/them.


I will say this right now though...your main killing methods are going to be uair and dair.

 

[pitskeyblade]

Pretty sure our Nair beats Wario's Dair.

 

[Kuro~]

If u stay in place dair can still hit you. But if u move left/right your good.

I have a pretty good match to get recorded to help show this mu.

I plan on asking luckay once i get a couple replays from someone elses wii.