Wario+ Cha Cha Cha! (OP updated, expect more soon) *WIP*

[Revven]

I played Zeon online about three weeks ago with my Wario, saved some replays that were pretty good. It's against a floaty character, but bare in mind, it's WiFi so I make a lot of dumb mistakes and have some pretty terrible spacing.

0WN1N (Wario) VS. ZeonStar (Ganondorf) 1
0WN1N (Wario) VS. ZeonStar (Ganondorf) 2
0WN1N (Wario) VS. ZeonStar (Ganondorf) 3
0WN1N (Wario) VS. ZeonStar (Ganondorf) 4
0WN1N (Wario) VS. ZeonStar (Ganondorf) 5
0WN1N (Wario) VS. ZeonStar (Ganondorf) 6
0WN1N (Wario) VS. ZeonStar (Ganondorf) 7

Feel free to tell me what I need to do more of or less of. I know I do a lot of Nair but, that's because Dair is so predictable and Fair is really mainly used for spacing and keep away. Nair is what starts most combos, Dair does too but it's sooooooooooo predictable.

 

[weinzey]

so, this comes from the nightly and is brought here on the request of smk. it's about nerfing wario because smk thinks that his game is overcentralizing on dair, uair and nair in the air and that fsmash is op. his initial post in which he suggests nerfing dair and uair damagewise and turning the sa on fsmash into ha:

smk's opinion (=pro nerf)

in my response i disagreed with a)wario being overcentralized (providing good examples of uses for his other aerials) and b) wario being op (at least till proven otherwise, in dubio pro reo)

weinzey's opinion (=contra nerf)

jcaesar said he thinks fsmash is easily punishable by dodging it (which i completely agree with), while smk said that he discussed the nerfs w/shell and cape(though i dont know their exact opinion).

last post of smk on this topic (which is where i'll pick the discussion up):

last post by smk

i had an idea which would solve the problem of wario's tendency to use nair, dair and nair over fair and bair (i want to emphasize that using 3 out of 5 all the time and the other 2 regularly in certain situations/matchups isnt overcentralizing imo):
why not nerf uair/dair in damage and transfer it to fair/bair. that way, they would become a little more attractive (though they still dont combo well). with the damage nerf only, uair/dair are still the better options in the situations they are now, so this would kinda defeat the purpose.

concerning fsmash: imo, sa should definetely stay since it's very unique to wario and there is imo no reason to remove it. u cant compare it to mk's grounded sl in the slightest, since mk doesnt commit himself to it, and thus doesnt get punished. if u really want to nerf fsmash, u'd have to nerf it's damage (which goes too far for now though imo). this would reduce it's spammability far more than removing sa for ha.

another point i'd like to emphasize are trade-offs. fox got his amazing jc shine for only 2 nerfs iirc, luigi gets some interesting new features etc. they both were/are clearly better than wario imo, so why should we nerf wario (who is borderline top10 imo,kinda where peach is) without trade- offs?

my suggestions:

appropriate trade-offs (imo) for any kind of nerfs:
less kbg on his 2nd jab: would allow for aerial comboes instead of always having to cancel the first one into fsmash/grab
less kb (mainly bkb, maybe some kbg) or winddown on u throw: would allow to start an aerial combo again.

appropriate trade-offs (imo) fordamage nerfs on uair/dair:
damage increase on fair, maybe bair (as mentioned above)


users i'd like to reply here: smk, i_am_plum, slikvik, shell, cape, jcaesar and maybe shanus
(and ofc anybody who has an interesting input)

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Wario is third best in the game.


Fsmash: sa removed for heavy armor (which is still sort of super amor for attacks below 11%)


dair: less damage with KB compensate

Wario is still too OP IMOOFS

(In Mah Own Opinion Fo Shizzles)

 

[crazycrackers]

Wario is third best in the game.


Fsmash: sa removed for heavy armor (which is still sort of super amor for attacks below 11%)


dair: less damage with KB compensate

Wario is still too OP IMOOFS

(In Mah Own Opinion Fo Shizzles)

Sorry I haven't been in the wario discussion until now really, so I'm going to have to ask this question. By KB compensate, do you increasing KB? I actually wouldn't like that, because Dair is often used as a combo move.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

no. Lowering damage also lowers kb. You'd have to increase the kb in tandem with a damage decrease in order to retain the same kb.

cuz if you just lowered the damage alone it would be an even more stupidly good combo move.

 

[crazycrackers]

Oh I had forgotten that. That makes sense now. Seems reasonable in my opinion.

 

[Revven]

I don't like quoting walls of text so I'm just gonna post my thoughts on what weinzey said.

Putting the damage onto Fair/Bair when taking away from Dair/Uair = not a good idea. Bair already does 10%, Fair doing 7% is fine (it can apparently KO lightweights near the blastzone on certain stages). If I take away 2% from Dair and give it to Bair that makes Bair do 12% and Dair do 14%... that's not good because now he'll do more damage if he manages to combo Dair > Bair or just in general Bair will do more damage which is the opposite of what a damage nerf is supposed to do. A damage nerf is supposed to lower the output of his damage so that when he does 2-3 hits from Uair or Dair he doesn't wind-up doing 40% to you in a matter of 2-3 hits with the same move, you see what I'm saying?

17% is a lot for Uair. I've taken it down to 15% now, which is about as much as Zelda's Uair does which seems pretty fair IMO (KB compensated of course). Dair does 14%, however, I want to go to 12% with it because of how good of an approach it is and it is almost always Wario's best option on shields. Plus, it's a little tricky to SDI but, it's possible to do so. However, failure to do so shouldn't result in 16% like it does now but, resulting in either 12% or 14% is good for sure, maybe a middle-ground of 13%.

Right now, chaining two Uairs (if you manage to do so) will do 30%, which is what Zelda can do some times as well. 15% is a good spot for this because of how meaty it is, 17% on the other hand... was pretty ridiculous though. I don't even think Snake's Uair does as much as that!

Another interesting thing of note, Wario's Nair when both hits connect does 13%, that's also pretty meaty. Because it combos into Fsmash, I think it should also get a damage nerf on the first hit, making it only do... 7-8% instead? Maybe lower because of how good it is for approaching and since it combos into Fsmash. The fact that it does 13% is pretty surprising to me actually, I always thought it did less than 10%. In any case, it needs toning down regardless.

Okay, so we're pretty much on the same page with Dair and Uair damage nerfs, I don't think there's any reason to give him a buff in exchange for any of that because it doesn't change his playstyle in any way.

But, in the case of Fsmash, BBrawl did a damage nerf without compensation. Now, would you want to compensate it? Or would you rather have both its damage and knockback nerfed? (Since damage makes the KB change). I'm asking because you didn't specifically note that. Also, how much should it go down? Right now I think it does 21%. If Nair goes down to 11% or below, taking Fsmash down to 19% might be pretty good, maybe 18%. Right now... Nair > Fsmash does 34% (the exact same amount as Uair > Uair when Uair is at 17%!!) If we took Nair down to 11% and took Fsmash to 19% the combo would total to: 30% (LOL the exact same as Uair > Uair with 15% damage instead). We could go further on the first hit of Nair, unless you'd rather take the second hit (which is 4%) and make it do 2% along with the 7-8% first hit of Nair. That would make it do 9-10% which imo seems also pretty fair since it's two hits.

I just do want to say that despite Wario being a heavyweight and heavyweights needing to do a lot of damage, Wario is pretty fast to be a heavyweight and has a lot of aerial mobility. As a result, I think he really shouldn't be able to output so much damage in just 2 simple hits or even three because of how quick in the air he is and the fact that he's actually got a pretty decent dash speed.

That's all I have to say right now.

 

[Plum]

Being on vacation causes you to miss some things...
If I wanted to dig up posts I could, but it was a good while ago when I said the only thing Wario needs is less damage output.

I think it was Neko who said Wario was ******** lol **** way back when, and I had to admit myself that while his character itself isn't exactly too **** (his weaknesses are clear enough for the right characters to abuse, while his strengths aren't overwhelming enough to absolutely dominate every character) some things he can do were clearly insane.

A perfectly timed waft can kill certain characters from the CENTER of stages at like 50%, and I'm sure we've all done it several times before. It's that one aspect that wins Wario matches when he pulls it off. No other character can kill that obscenely early with as much ease. The only other things killing that early are stupidly long charged moves (Eruption, Warlock Punch, PK Flash, etc.) and you have to be mentally ******** to walk into those compared to Wario's insanely fast Waft.

That on its own isn't so bad considering how situational (though still realistic enough to happen) a perfectly timed Waft is to come along. But it is bad when you factor in how Wario can get you to that killing percent in 3 moves. 4 or 5 moves to get you to the more regular Waft killing percents. And let's not forget that any killing percent gets lower the closer the the ledge you get (Waft gimps are too pro).

He doesn't have the extensive combo game like some characters, but he has several staple combos that pile on absurdly (and easy) quick damage. Uair chains on fast fallers/heavies, Nair combos (Nair to Fsmash, Nair to grab etc.) Fsmash in general, and Dair combos. He puts damage on like the other heavies in the game, but he differs from them in so many ways that it is problematic. Most importantly is the fact that he isn't a fatty. His huge weight all comes with a small body size and the best aerial mobility (.3 in PSA made me LOL so hard when I saw it, considering Jiggly was originally .08 iirc) in the game and 3rd best aerial speed (behind Jiggly and Yoshi). So when you see all the other heavies getting ***** by combos and combo'd into finishing moves you see Wario double jumping into airdodges and baiting aerials all day and avoiding it. It fits his character perfectly well to be doing massive damage, as well as the super armor on Fsmash (it should have been invincibility to greater represent his character/games even further LOL), though balance wise it doesn't suit him when he has so much more going for him than the other heavies. Oh, and I don't see them comboing into their kill moves either (jab canceled Fsmash is amazingly good, and doesn't leave you with much room to react).

Okay, I'm realizing that this is getting extremely "wall of text" for a simple "I totally agree." I'm going to wrap this up... I fully support damage nerfs on Wario. I would be fighting every single change if it was a playstyle change. He has a great moveset going for him and almost every attack has some purpose even if it is a niche in the overall scheme of things (moves like Fair and Bair are those niche type of things). It doesn't give you much room to change any move without affecting his very complete playstyle (he, along with characters like MK don't have room for a new playstyle compared to somebody like Marth who was overhauled). But damage nerfs are perfectly acceptable.

/what turned into a rant.

 

[weinzey]

@smk:

fsmash: it does do 19% right now. if u want to nerf the damage, i'd like to see it go to 18, 17% at the most (with kb compensation). this however would justifiy an appropriate trade-off. i would actually welcome that change, because it would enrich wario's game if u reduce the kb of his 2nd jab in return fi.

nair: no need to nerf the damage here. u can only hit with both hits at low to mid percents (depending on char). so after that percentage, u'll only do 4% if u want to combo.

uair/dair: i agree with nerfing damage here (with kb compensation), but dair should not go lower than 14%.

fair/bair: since fair doesnt combo as well as dair/nair and bair doesnt at all it wouldnt increase wario's damage output nearly as much as the uair/dair changes decrease it. and dair->bair wont happen often since uair is still the better choice.


@plum: wario differs a lot from other heavy weights. but having less of their weaknesses, he also has less of their strengths.
1) range: wario is the only heavyweight who doesnt have decent range.
2)damage output: his output is still lower than dk's or ganons

but as other heavyweights, he does get comboes a lot more than lighter chars, even though he is floaty. and being floaty also has its drawbacks, so u get the picture.
all in all, high damging moves are what wario is about. small damage nerfs are acceptable as they are necesssary, but u shouldnt go overboard with it.

concerning sa: all (most) heavies have some kind of sa. look here (though its a little old)
so there's no reason to remove it.


@waft: plz, dont touch it. it high kb (half waft) or dmg output (full waft) are justified by only being able to do it every 1:20 (that's the sweetspot imo). also, if ur opponent knows the matchup, he'll smell it from a distance. so u'll miss half of the wafts and have to wait again.

@killmoves in generel: jiggs (doesnt really count), luigi and dk kill basically as early as wario.
dk can even combo into his punch.
there are btw also other heavies that can combo into their kill moves (fi d3 w/ nair>utilt), so there's nothing wrong with that either imo.


@symphonic sage: plz dont state ur (or for that matter smk's) opinion as facts. since this is an open discussion, i find it's disrespectful.




summing up: i agree with damage nerfs (kb comp) on uair/dair (15/14%)
i'd hate to see sa go on fsmash. if u want to dmg nerf it (w/ kb comp) keep in mind it does "only" 19%, not 21. but if u do nerf it, i'd like to see an appropriate trade-off (less kb on 2nd jab?).





p.s if zelda'S uair does 17%, maybe it should be dmg nerfed too?

 

[Revven]

p.s if zelda'S uair does 17%, maybe it should be dmg nerfed too?

Zelda's Uair does 15%, which is fine considering how slow the move is, Wario's is faster and does 17%? Way too crazy.

I'll have something cooked up later today I guess.

 

[slikvik]

Wario has to commit his entire body to attacks. It's appropriate that his aerials do a decent amount of damage. It's appropriate risk/reward imo. However, I can live with taking off a couple percent from uair/dair as long as kb is left alone. Fsmash is my baby XD. Leave it alone!!!

 

[Plum]

I'll give heavy armor on Fsmash the ol' college try. I think all of us would be (or at least should be) fighting tooth and nail if you wanted to remove the armor aspect of Fsmash altogether, but heavy armor should hopefully work out fine.

Anybody know which recoveries he'll still be able to plow his way through? I can't see too many recoveries doing more than 10% in one hit (maybe all together) except like Luigi's sweetspot off the top of my head...

I'm totally okay with damage nerfs as long assuming KB is the same and I don't know why it would be changed at all... Dair with less KB would just make it more combo ****, and Uair with less KB would make it **** fast fallers/heavies even more

 

[weinzey]

misread the zelda stuff, my bad.

i agree with slikvik, plz leave fsmash alone (except damage nerf w/ kb comp, that would be ok with me).
sa is very valuable for wario because it increases his range significantly. it's his only move that he has against disjointed hitboxes. that would hurt him too much by far, and isn't necessary at all. squirtle also only received damage nerfs, and he is clearly better than wario imo.

 

[cAm8ooo]

I dont see the problem with changing his Fsmash super armor to heavy armor. Wario is a very very good character and is slightly op at the moment. The damage nerfs plus the Fsmash change are justified if done correctly (which they will be).

Heavy armor Fsmash keeps the uniqueness of the move while at the same time not making it such a "I win" button. The heavy armor will do it's job by preventing most fast start up moves from being able to stop it but at the same time wont make it a near unstoppable force once initiated that wrecks through just about every move in the game. It's just far too safe at the moment.

 

[weinzey]

I dont see the problem with changing his Fsmash super armor to heavy armor. Wario is a very very good character and is slightly op at the moment. The damage nerfs plus the Fsmash change are justified if done correctly (which they will be).

Heavy armor Fsmash keeps the uniqueness of the move while at the same time not making it such a "I win" button. The heavy armor will do it's job by preventing most fast start up moves from being able to stop it but at the same time wont make it a near unstoppable force once initiated that wrecks through just about every move in the game. It's just far to safe at the moment.

it's his only chance against range (besides ftilt, which is really slow). and disjointed hitboxes beat it out by far, u just have to space properly. in fact, if u hit him with a disjointed hitbox during sa frames, u can hit him again due to the large winddown of his fsmash.

 

[cAm8ooo]

it's his only chance against range (besides ftilt, which is really slow). and disjointed hitboxes beat it out by far, u just have to space properly. in fact, if u hit him with a disjointed hitbox during sa frames, u can hit him again due to the large winddown of his fsmash.

Wario makes up for his lack of range with his extreme aerial mobility (the highest in the game). He can weave in for attacks and then weave right back out giving him a lot more range then you would think. There are few characters in the game that can reach a persons hurtbox and then immediately back completely out of their range.

Even better, Wario can space properly, hit an opponent with an attack and even if it's shielded he can use his momentum to retreat behind an opponent and be completely safe from most characters.

A heavy armor Fsmash will still provide great defense against a ranged character but will force the player to think and use it properly instead of just knowing that it's going to beat out everything.

 

[Plum]

Wario does have poor range, but as cam said, his mobility more than makes up for it.
Very few characters can actually play the range card on Wario; in vBrawl the only character that boasted range on him and actually gave him a bit of a hard time was Marth. It was around a 6-4 in vBrawl, and its probably even closer now because of all the nasty things Wario can do to Marth when he gets inside, and especially in the current build with the "heavy Marth." And to make things worse for Marth his recovery took a hit with B+ gravity as well as his own gravity along with NASL. He's even easier gimp bait, and that's beautiful for us. His Up B does too much damage for the proposed heavy armor to eat, which stinks but Wario can gimp him easily regardless. He is easier to combo, and gimp... Both big bonuses for Wario when he gets inside Marth which isn't that troubling thanks to his mobility.

 

[weinzey]

i was talking about grounded range (misphrased it a little). same goes for high priority moves.
and concerning matchups, there are quite a few disadvantageous (hope thats a word)ones for wario in b+: marth, peach, luigi and kirby and maybe prolimar.

also, and this is the most important reason why there is no need to remove sa: only top5 chars (those being mk, fox, squirtle (who only got dmg nerfs btw iirc), kirby and marth or luigi; imo and what most people think) got nerfs that changed part of their playstyle, others only receive damage nerfs. and there is absolutely no reason why wario should be the exception.
so that's exactly what we should do, nerf his dmg output on uair/dair.

 

[cAm8ooo]

i was talking about grounded range (misphrased it a little). same goes for high priority moves.
and concerning matchups, there are quite a few disadvantageous (hope thats a word)ones for wario in b+: marth, peach, luigi and kirby and maybe prolimar.

also, and this is the most important reason why there is no need to remove sa: only top5 chars (those being mk, fox, squirtle (who only got dmg nerfs btw iirc), kirby and marth or luigi; imo and what most people think) got nerfs that changed part of their playstyle, others only receive damage nerfs. and there is absolutely no reason why wario should be the exception.
so that's exactly what we should do, nerf his dmg output on uair/dair.

Characters do not have to have ground range to be good. When you have the option to be in the air then it really doesnt matter where your range comes from as long as you have it. For instance, Jiggly puff has no range what so ever in her ground game but much like Wario, she relies on using her air momentum and great aerials to weave in and out of combat.

Second, your opinion on the Wario vs Kirby matchup is quite wrong from what i can tell. This weekend i played against SMK's wario quite a bit, as well as his DK. We are about even in skill but I had a horrible time trying to keep up with his Wario. At worse the matchup is 50-50 but i would go as far as to say that wario has an advantage against him. I could go in to detail as to why but i'll leave it at that. Also, i've heard from a good source (aka a good player) that Peach does not do that well against wario either.

Third, your completely wrong about changing play styles. Firstly, because this will not change his play style, it will just limit it. You can still do most the same things as before but instead of it being overpowered and plowing through everything you will instead of have to think more clearly on what you should be attempting to go through. Therefore promoting skill and thought. Second, your wrong because the WBR does not have to follow a set piece of rules that limit them. We have changed the entire game. Completely changed game mechanics and reworked whole characters. The WBR is not going to limit their ability of nerfs because someone will have to learn a simple mechanic called memory and learn that they can't use an OP move in the same way as before.

There is no precedent in nerfs. The WBR and the community should do what it takes to make this a better game. Right now, getting rid of his super armor and replacing it with a slightly worse form of the same thing is what is gonna make this game better.

 

[weinzey]

There is no precedent in nerfs. The WBR and the community should do what it takes to make this a better game. Right now, getting rid of his super armor and replacing it with a slightly worse form of the same thing is what is gonna make this game better.

that's a really flawed argument. why should someone nerf a character harder who was worse in the first place than those with smaller nerfs? squirtle got damage nerfs only, fox got an insanely good tradeoff, marth got reworked (and is better than before imo - or at least more fun) and kirby got a trade off for his fsmash nerf(which was way too strong for such a small/light char while being rangy and fast).
so why nerf wario harder? if u still think he's op after the damage nerfs, we can talk about it again, no problem. but let's take it step by step.

@kirby matchup: maybe ur right, but keep in mind that wario is a matchup that takes a lot of practice and experience.


@smk:so, what do u have cooked up? getting curious

 

[omegablackmage]

if you need to nerf wario, i would say taking percents off the clap/dair is fair (2-3% in each case), and a few percent off the fsmash (to 17 max) and taking the SA off the fsmash is no big deal to me.

IMO the SA frames are highly overrated, and really are only used to cut through attacks when you get lucky. Looking at high level vbrawl matches and play, you only see the fsmash cutting through attacks with the SA frames once in a blue moon. Slik's really the only one in here who would have any experience with high level vbrawl wario play, but i barely use the SA properties of the move. If you guys are concerned with people spamming it, just take it out. I really only fsmash when i combo into it.

What makes wario so good is that he can kill out of his throws on most stages (uthrow -> upair), can do strong low percent combos (fastfallers get destroyed, mid to lights will still probably take a lot of damage from nair x2 -> uthrow -> upair -> nair (fart for kill)), and his overall ability to avoid so many things. Also he's floaty, meaning much harder to combo in a lot of situations.

Like slik mentioned though, a serious lack of range keeps wario from being broken. Many characters are very capable of dealing with wario simply because they have just a little bit of range, which is enough to continue to swat wario away.

 

[weinzey]

What makes wario so good is that he can kill out of his throws on most stages (uthrow -> upair), can do strong low percent combos (fastfallers get destroyed, mid to lights will still probably take a lot of damage from nair x2 -> uthrow -> upair -> nair (fart for kill)), and his overall ability to avoid so many things. Also he's floaty, meaning much harder to combo in a lot of situations.

uthrow->uair only works on fast fallers and on heavies (for those, only at low- low mid %). it doesnt work at kill percents at all afaik.

IMO the SA frames are highly overrated, and really are only used to cut through attacks when you get lucky. Looking at high level vbrawl matches and play, you only see the fsmash cutting through attacks with the SA frames once in a blue moon. Slik's really the only one in here who would have any experience with high level vbrawl wario play, but i barely use the SA properties of the move. If you guys are concerned with people spamming it, just take it out. I really only fsmash when i combo into it.

if it isnt that useful, then u dont have to remove it. we shouldnt change stuff because we can, only if its necessary.

and again: wario isnt top5 (only maybe top10), so damage nerfs should be sufficent easily.

 

[omegablackmage]

hmmm, well if people are concerned with his forward smash being too spammable, then take out the properties that make it spammable... ie high damage and SA frames, easy as that.

i can get the upthrow to upair to work on like... 3/4 of the cast at kill percents

wario is easily top 5

 

[cAm8ooo]

that's a really flawed argument. why should someone nerf a character harder who was worse in the first place than those with smaller nerfs? squirtle got damage nerfs only, fox got an insanely good tradeoff, marth got reworked (and is better than before imo - or at least more fun) and kirby got a trade off for his fsmash nerf(which was way too strong for such a small/light char while being rangy and fast).
so why nerf wario harder? if u still think he's op after the damage nerfs, we can talk about it again, no problem. but let's take it step by step.

@kirby matchup: maybe ur right, but keep in mind that wario is a matchup that takes a lot of practice and experience.


@smk:so, what do u have cooked up? getting curious

I never said we was going to nerf him more then he deserved, just that we shouldn't limit the kinds of nerfs we dish out. You also seem to strongly underestimate Wario. You can't even tell he's top 10? He is currently 3rd best in vbrawl and has gotten better. He is a much better character then you give credit for and can easily compete with all of the characters you just mentioned. Why does the weakening of one move pose so much of a threat to you? You act as if it's unnecessary in comparison to other characters nerfs when in fact it's perfectly reasonable compared to other top tier characters.

wario is easily top 5

This. I would even put him as top three right now before nerfs.

 

[Plum]

Yeah, a top 3 character in vBrawl who gained a LOT from B+ is certainly much better then you give credit.
No abusing his grab release animation, effective and POWERFUL combos (a Wario combo is basically guaranteed 30-40% and once that combo turns to a string its even more damage), better gimp game (gravity and NASL, and hopefully the potentially reworked edgegame will eventually happen and add even more to his gimp game with a smaller sweetspot on the ledge), his moveset naturally got a smidgen better (things like DACUS actually being very good now, and the chance to use a Utilt in a match LOLOLOLOL), and so on. The Dthrow fix wasn't necessarily a nerf as much as it was a needed change to remove the practically instawin button he had with it on a fairly good portion of the cast.

So basically Wario until this point has only been given buffs (and not even intentionally, except the grab releases but he wasn't the only victim there) Let's face it, Wario worked very well in vBrawl physics and arguably works even BETTER in B+ physics in which he is blessed with his little, though EXTREMELY effective combo game.

 

[Revven]

So, right now, I have Dair at 14%, Uair at 15%, and Fsmash at 17% all with compensated KB (however, when I compensated Dair's KB it killed at like 130%.... which is plain wrong so I had to lower the KB some from what the formula gave me) other than that, Dair should work fine, it just never kills at the 100% range and can't combo at high %s (as far as I have messed with it, which wasn't very long).

Are we set on Fsmash SA frames here? Because I can take them out and give him HA frames with 10% or lower not being able to hit him out of Fsmash. It really wouldn't hurt him that bad, with a damage nerf alongside that on Fsmash I think that he'd be fine after that. It's just making the move less... "oh look you attack me, I spot dodge you, IASA from the spot dodge into Fsmash, as either GTFO + damage or KO'd" making the move weaker in the GTFO area and more of a "I have to actually THINK to use this move or otherwise I'm gonna get hit by a tilt that does 11%+ or a smash attack that does more than 10%". Most of the time, when I do Fsmash with Wario, it's during the time I'm about to get smash attacked as well or even when I'm near someone, the SA frames save me and I get a free KO or a free GTFO. He already has a pretty good GTFO move, it's just slow and requires good spacing to use well (Ftilt is what I'm talking about here) not only that but, you also have Bite, which also beats everything that isn't a projectile.

Fsmash doesn't need two uses, it only needs one, that being the ability to KO. I'd argue right now it has three uses, damage, KOs, and GTFO. Two of which being way too powerful because it is a combo finisher as well (jab > Fsmash, Dair > Fsmash, and so on) which is pretty potent for such a hit and run character.

The guy literally got buffed by the gameplay mechanics, giving his Fsmash HA, a damage nerf, his Uair a damage nerf, and a Dair damage nerf isn't going to change his play style like Fox was changed or Falco was changed. It's going to allow him to stay who he is, just with a less powerful advantage on a lot of the cast.

And yes, Uthrow > Uair DOES work on the majority of the cast. It just needs proper reading of DI as well as the ability to intercept your opponent's air dodge, meaning hit them their AD ends. Need I also remind you that his Uair can also be used as a frame trap for air dodges? 17% for a frame trap is pretty insane, which is why I'd like it to either be 14% or 15% and Dair, since it's SO good on shield and basically his best approach option do 12% rather than 14% (right now both Uair and Dair do 15% and 14% respectively).

In any case, I haven't had any time at all to do much of anything to him except the three damage nerfs I mentioned initially. So don't be surprised if that's what you see in the next build, I've been busy all week.

 

[RPGsFTW]

@Falco400:

Sounds just fine to me. Do you happen to have a test .pac we can use though? It feels like the next nightly will take forever and a half to come out. =P

 

[Revven]

Uploading Wario matches in progress:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4fBukja3e4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MO_RrCQPU0

More later tonight.

 

[Revven]

I think these Wario matches should be relevant to match-up interest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZLuzm0nfVY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2BhUAA-43g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A019k_oUf54
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2iMdBTuTsQ

Last video, if someone techrolls towards you after you Dthrow, use Bite. It can actually be used to techchase them and it's a pretty easy set up. Won't work ALL the time though, obviously, it's probably just a one time thing. I just got lucky three times in that last video against Cape.

Using Bite as a techchase move, sons! GET AT ME!

 

[Wavedash Master]

What Brawl+ builds are these videos exactly?

 

[cAm8ooo]

What Brawl+ builds are these videos exactly?

It was an unreleased set that has changed by now.

 

[weinzey]

concerning wario changes...
wasnt it agreed upon that fsmash gets the dmg OR the sa nerf, and never both?
also, is the kb fully compensated?
and is it true that dair didnt get kb compensation or is it a changelog typo? (would be sweet if true)

 

[Revven]

1) It doesn't really change the strength of the move or use of it, it can still plow through many attacks regardless, it just requires a bit more thought on whether you should do it at that moment or not (knowing the %s of tilts and jabs and such).

2) Everything should be fully compensated, you don't have to ask every time, damage nerfs generally means KB is compensated unless otherwise stated.

3) The damage nerfs for Dair affected the smaller, weaker hits, two of them got knocked down to 1% while there are still the 4 4%s meaning that it works the same way as before and is not a buff.

 

[weinzey]

1) It doesn't really change the strength of the move or use of it, it can still plow through many attacks regardless, it just requires a bit more thought on whether you should do it at that moment or not (knowing the %s of tilts and jabs and such).

2) Everything should be fully compensated, you don't have to ask every time, damage nerfs generally means KB is compensated unless otherwise stated.

3) The damage nerfs for Dair affected the smaller, weaker hits, two of them got knocked down to 1% while there are still the 4 4%s meaning that it works the same way as before and is not a buff.

1)if it doesnt really change anything, then why change it? and i dont have that much of a problem with the change, more with the fact that it has been discussed and a consensus was (at least somewhat) reached. nevertheless u (or the wbr as a whole) changed him just as u please. it's still a community project right?

2) was just asking because the uair change said "full compensation" and the fsmash change didnt.

 

[Revven]

It changes how you have to think with the move versus actually changing how it's used is what I was getting at with Fsmash. I didn't completely 100% agree to not doing it, I had thought about it for awhile and felt that HA would make a difference in certain match-ups where SA on it just ***** certain characters pretty badly. In its earlier state, it could be used mindlessly, now it's not really like that anymore so the move is fine now.

 

[Plum]

Just be thankful that Wario only got some damage nerfs, and bumped down to a HA Fsmash.
He could have been more directly nerfed like his fellow top vBrawl characters (MK and Snake) but he wasn't. He only received buffs in the transition to B+, in the loss of grab releases, ALR, and the ability to harshly punish mistakes. All of his vBrawl strategies remained in game; so everything that made him a top 3 character in vBrawl is still there while many were enriched and given more effectiveness in B+ physics.

Fsmash was practically a get out of jail free card. If they were close to you Fsmash was just a mindless Cstick flick away and they either took a hefty % toll or were flat out killed. I understood Wario was going to be nerfed sooner or later, it just took some good time for people to see what he's capable of, similarly to how long it took him to shine in vBrawl. I for one imagined things being even worse off, because lets face it, Wario is capable of some of the gayest crap in the game. All we have to deal with is a few % difference in damage output and a slightly less good Fsmash. It is still easily one of the best Fsmash's in the game with its power and HA being able to plow through a huge portion of the game's moves, and the ability to combo into Fsmash at KILL %'s!

We could have lost some of Wario's combos, we could have lost the ability to combo into Fsmash, we could have been forced to learn a new style of play. Wario isn't really nerfed in terms of how well he performs in matchups, he is just a little less gay. I think it was a good step forward in the right direction :V

 

[GHNeko]

What made him gay was air dodge and side step and those were nerfed as well. <_<

 

[Plum]

The best mobility in the game, the ability to easily to almost 40% in two hits, the ability to kill towards 50% from the CENTER of stages, do 40% in one hit that hits on frame 9 with 5 frames of super armor, his ability to gay any extended hurtbox, jab to Fsmash, and the greatest Utilt the game has ever known didn't contribute to his gay at all?
Come on :V

 

[GHNeko]

DMG.

10char. V:

 

[RPGsFTW]

Alrighty so about those Wario+ techniques/combos... anybody got any?

I've been really interested in the idea of using the bike more offensively. That being the bike and it's wheels. A while back I read a Wario's Bike vBrawl guide by TheRealBobMan who talked about how much potential Wario has but doesn't get used due to people not using the bike offensively.

One of the cool things I got out of it was about Wario vs Sheik. In vBrawl, when a Sheik Ftilt semi-locked a Wario, he could bring out his bike during the inbetween time of her Ftilts. This made it so Sheik would pick up the bike, unless she expected this, because of her pushing A so close to it. This gave Wario a free Fsmash on Sheik, or whatever else he wanted. I don't know if this still works in Brawl+ for Wario vs Sheik, but I thought it was really cool.

Another thing I read, that works, is that Wario can run off the edge of the stage, then immediately bike towards the stage. This drops Warios bike right near the ledge so it's out and ready to be used for whatever is needed.

I'm thinking the obvious Z dropping of a tire into an Uair would come to mind, as well as glide tossing the tire forward. I also know that the bike can make a psuedo shield from projectiles, while driving it or not, just by being in the way. Staying near your downed bike during battle can make your opponent accidentally pick up your bike, allowing that free smash, fart, etc.

Besides all that stuff, I'd like to hear what you guys have to say about offensive bike tactics. That, and if there are any new Wario+ combos in general.

Last thing. Does jab -> Fsmash still work? I'd think that jab -> bite should, at the least?