Wall of marth

[j3ly]

what to do about marths wall of fairs? or his retreating empty SH's that will become fairs if you consider approaching?

it appears to me, an advancing wall of fairs followed by retreating SH's + nairs makes learning falco an absolute NECESSITY if you want to place top 10. someone please enlighten me if i am wrong.

it makes no difference to me because i love falco but it would be nice to know how to counter this unbelievably simple yet effective style.

i though i could counter by WDing up to marth, shielding, then FH dairing him after he wiffs. but no, the 2nd one hits. and if he decided to SH fair wall instead of FH fair wall, nothing seems to be able to counter it (marth can jump out of SH fair into another 2 fairs). halp!!! even if the dair hits, it gets SDI'd and i eat a fair. uair doesnt combo marth (not in PAL) unless its timed very late. this seems like a dead and pointless matchup to me.

my advise is learn falco/fox/marth for peach, marth and jiggs, marios worst 3 matchups. emphasis on the falco.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Crouch -> F-smash works surprisingly well against Marth. Not if he's retreating, but if he thinks he can approach you easily, this will keep him honest and stop him from spamming F-airs mindlessly. To be accurate, this avoids the rising F-air fairly easily. CCing a FFed F-air however can work as well if you're at low damage.

Otherwise getting in on Marth is pretty much just a matter of perfect execution. You can't screw up the slightest if you're trying to approach. Then the priority is making your hit count, which will usually be through grabs.

 

[n0ne]

instead of cc to fsmash try cc to dsmash... that way, its rather frightening really cause it comes out faster and there for, its very probable they will miss the tech, so follow up is possible.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

you have a projectile to use as mario right? it's not totally useless, your problem is your thinking their perfect or kindof why ninjas were hyped.

Also you don't always have to play how your foe whats you to play.

 

[A2ZOMG]

lol gtfo ICG this is srs business.

n0ne, I never really specifically said CC -> F-smash. What I meant was by ducking, it actually can avoid his air game and often can let you bait a whiff which can let you F-smash him.

 

[j3ly]

one of my main training partners is one of the most talented marths in europe it has been speculated he has the best spacing too. its very hard beating this technique. theres no chance of him messing up and me grabbing, his spacing is never off.

yeah i learned about the CC -> fsmash/dsmash from friendlies vs a doc main, but that only works until like less than 50%. then the fair walls start again. Any other ideas? i am getting better at the matchup but i need tips for this one.

Otherwise getting in on Marth is pretty much just a matter of perfect execution. You can't screw up the slightest if you're trying to approach.

this is the way im thinking atm, that your timing needs to be perfect every time to get inbetween those fairs. so hard with marios poor range and slow air time.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

F-Air

Total: 33
Hit: 4-7
IASA: 30
Auto cancel: 27>
Landlag: 15
Lcanceled: 7


SH air time: 38

there is a 33 frames of room to attack him. However frame data does tend to lie at times. I would believe as marios you would solve amazing spacing with fireballs and the cape.

 

[j3ly]

the wall eats fireballs lol

that is VERY useful data icg. the kind of data that moves metagame along. the cape works as a counter to the fair wall but i never perfected the technique. perhaps its time, and perhaps its the only way. sometimes you can outspace with an uangled fsmash, but we are talking illogical and lawless spacing there

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I didn't want to learn how to L-cancel upair when I first started SHFFLing really good. but Really I believe sometuimes you can't play their game you have to totally do what you do and be uneffected. like take ______ vs puff puff is playing spacing vs someone who can't really space like that, you play your own game not their's. I think that's why people may be having problems with puff I meane really puff should just plian fail vs fox because he can easily run away forever with lasers. I mean I can run away forever as freakin pichu on some stages give me a break and the sec. she stops playing space bair I land a nair and make it that much harder.

again that goes back to playing your game when it's smart.

 

[j3ly]

anyone?___

 

[Dynamism?]

Freakin Fair, I have the same problem as Doc. Just on the edge, I can't get anywhere but they don't come to me so I get annoyed and try ramming through them but get hit more and eventually die. LOL

On stage it hasn't been a problem for me. Possibly cause Pills might be better than Fireballs? (I don't know the Mario thing much but this is what I'm assuming) and Doc is a little faster/chunkier.

On the edge though, I also need help. It's come to a point where I just WD on and roll to the middle, hoping to get ridiculous distance and replant myself centre stage. :\

Maybe try dash attack or dash Usmash. A trade = good for you. So if all else fails, this might be worth it. :\
Just a thought.

I wouldn't suggest Falco against either of those three though. LOL
Fox is sooo much buttar in those 3 match ups.

 

[j3ly]

i know it can be done because ive seen mango do it, and i feel more comfortable/consistent with falco

if ur having trouble getting onto the edge try stalling -> perfect waveland. stress on the perfect waveland, your gnna loose alot of stocks learning how to do it but its well worth it. Also if the suspect that you will try to waveland behind them (which is why it should be perect - so u can get to the other side), they ill stand way back from the edge. Making it easy to get back on, or even getup below 100 and throw out a quick ranged attack

 

[Dynamism?]

That's what I said lol

Waveland on + roll
Sends you across the entire stage to safety lol

I lost many a stock, still lose them sometimes, but it was sooooo worth it every single time.

 

[iMichael]

Fireball waveland and repeat works well and shield grab. I use dsmash on Marths and when you grab just combo the s*** out of them. oh and avoid stages like Yoshi's...that s*** is too small and Marth of course has the advantage.

 

[Dynamism?]

I just played Diakonos with Doc for a while. It was just friendlies but still good...
Don't approach. You don't have to if you don't want to.
And standing pills(or fireballs) make him HAVE to hit it or shield it. If he doesn't hit it, that's your chance to WD in and grab etc. I'd just WD back and pill or stand and pill if safe any time he was SHing or trying to wall me. It's really the only real BEST way to deal with a Marth that simply doesn't be stupid. Tough to say from simple friendlies but it didn't seem to be too much of a problem. STAY ON THE GROUND!!!

Against Peach too, they beat you in the air HARD and EVERY time. (exception is when he's moving forward after an aerial or something and you can nair or bair him to trade or counter it. trading is a + with a fair almost any time, it's just really tough to trade since it rarely comes up where they DO move AT you with a fair lol)

 

[j3ly]

thankyou very much for your input dynamism.
i actually find rolling to be very effective against this strategy! try spacing rolls and usmash oos/anything oos. upsmash can mean very good things for mario if it hits between 5-20%. but there needs to be several ways to counter it, STAY ON THE GROUND is good advise. Easy to follow too.


lol i played with a lvl9 ganon in teams in tribute to diakonos today. fuzzy says hes very good. so is lvl9 ganon. comboing those upB's into marios fair.. ra!!pe

 

[Dynamism?]

LOL lvl9 Ganon is cheating sooo hard. Frame perfect everything, epic mindgames.

Trading any Marth thing with an upsmash is always good too. Rolling is pretty risky since Marth can grab so quickly from anywhere but has its moments for sure. Marth can be so hard to hit LOL

Yeah Fuzzy's good too. His style really messed with a lot of players here. Vancouver is so used to high pressure shines and lazers, he was a good change for a bit. Say hi to Charles for James and tell him he's a Beatle lol

 

[Brightside6382]

Play smart. There is no trick that will get you in 100% of the time you just gotta be clever. Either that or pick a higher tier character.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Throw fireballs and mix up your approaches.

 

[MarioMariox2]

I think you could pressure with a shabawd that doesn't aim to hit, but gets close enough to make marth screw up his timing.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

I forgot who came up with the strategy but try and stay behind the marth. easier said that done but it's worth a shot

 

[j3ly]

thats why i find rolling to be so effective against fair spam. its gotta be clever and spaced and timed but it works goooood.

 

[unknown522]

lol, trying to get through marth with mario.

I actually switched to doc long ago because of marth.

But then I realized that the matchup was still horrible.

Use sheik. Or alternatively, try to poke him with f-tilt when he's in the air. Also WD OoS -> jab is pretty good as long as you get them in the air/they don't CC it.

Also, f-smash around his range and at low percents, CC his f-air and d-smash him.

 

[MarioMariox2]

Fsmash against higher tiered characters is an advantage to using Mario rather than Doc. Use it well :D