Vs. Sheik

[PEEF!]

You know the drill. Decent amount of talk about here in the General Discussion but i will soon be swamped and buried.

Questions to start it off:

1: Hard shino stalling

2: Fair spam (Trail's uair/usmash below technique doesnt work for me becuase im not quick enough or something)

3: Fair>ftilt

4: Plat drop fair/bair

5: Needle spam

6: Tilt approach

 

[ChivalRuse]

Sheik likes to jump a lot. But what goes up must come down. Desynched blizzards are the way to go. Mixed in with fsmashes, uairs, and dash attacks, you can invade her SH fair space pretty well. Gotta be precise, but it's doable.

 

[PEEF!]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HzZ9b8MDm8

Fly really shows us how to do it here. 1:55 was a great example of keeping sheik from getting back to the stage and forcing punishment. Icewall at 2:34 was a great way to deal with the platforming sheik.

I know there is a formula for edgeguarding her. Do certain things at certain times and you can keep hitting her off. Fly mind to explain exactly what that is, and does i have to involve nana getting hit? =[

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I don't think there's much of a formula you can follow until Sheik's at a really high percentage, in which case edgeguarding her is really straightforward: edgehog, force her to up-B onto the stage, then bair her off again if she tries to land on a platform and grab her or knock her off again if she tries to land on the stage. If you want to prevent Nana from getting hit with the up-B, you can have her edgehog instead via belay OoS, but I don't like doing this as much as I used to since Sheik can sometimes hit Popo with up-B instead; also, Nana's get-up attack can sometimes mess up edgeguard attempts.

It's harder to edgeguard Sheik when she can get back onto the stage with an airdodge or to the edge with a double jump. In this case, I often just let her have the edge and try to make it hard for her to get back on the stage with ice blocks and blizzards. ICs are good at preventing Sheik from getting back on stage, so you don't need to rush the edgeguarding process. It's also worth noting that some Sheiks will fair by the edge before grabbing it, in which case you can just fsmash her hand when she slaps.

I also want to mention that trying to edgehog Sheik when she doesn't need to rely on her up-B is a bad idea, since she can often airdodge to the stage and put you in a really bad position instead. I don't know how often other ICs actually make this mistake, but I sometimes do it more than I shoud.

 

[PEEF!]

Yeah, when I mention the formula, I am talking about when she must recover with Upb.

Other than that, it seems best to chill (haha) with some ice back on stage and wait, or maybe try that surprise smash if you pick up on a bad habit.

Dthrow chain is not easy. It seems like I either have to guess DI away, or any other DI. I think that maybe dashing forward as fast as possible to get the DI away if it happens, and if it doesnt, just DDing back the other direction on reaction could be a good idea because she hits the ground fastest with DI away I think. More testing I guess.

I have a couple questions after playing some good sheiks this weekend.

1: How do you try to stop her momentum. It seems like when shes all on you doin stuff and spacing well there is no hope.

2: After I cc the tilt, and I am out of grab and dsmash range, what should I do? Dsmashing anyway works sometimes...

 

[ChivalRuse]

Peef, when you CC her tilts, sometimes you can just run up and grab her before she has time to do anything. At really low percents, you can even CC her dsmash. You'll slide a bit, but you certainly should able to dash grab her. Some Sheiks will notice you doing this and will switch to SH fairs pronto. You can just react to the fairs with shield, though.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

The dthrow CG is kind of hard at low percentages. I mess it up occasionally, but, except maybe at really low percentages, you have more than enough to simply react to your opponent's DI. No guessing is necessary. If your opponent DIs up or doesn't DI, you stand in place or walk forward a bit and grab. If he DIs away, run forward and JC grab.

Yeah, you can usually run in and grab after CCing Sheik's ftilt. I think if the Sheik spaces it really well, she can jab you before you can grab her, but very few Sheiks do this consistently.

If Sheik is applying a lot of pressure to you and you're not in a position to punish her, just try to retreat. Sometimes just rolling backwards when she short hops works. I like to wavedash backwards OoS since it's generally more flexible than rolling. It can also help to blizzard afterwards to relieve some pressure.

 

[Kyu Puff]

How do you deal with sheik's d-smash?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Block it. Then WD OoS grab.

 

[PEEF!]

Come back to us and main ICs

 

[Smasher89]

FLy- try the difference between JC grab and just dashgrabing at low %, I think it comes out faster or something that makes it easier for me (but more noticable to Marths upthrow), then starting to JCgrab at some higher %´s...

 

[pockyD]

dash grab is better for covering DI away

 

[Fluffy G]

in that video, what desynch is fly doing at 1:58? it just looks like a wavedash

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HzZ9b8MDm8

 

[KirbyKaze]

Come back to us and main ICs

I would, but Sheik is so gay and I'll lose without her.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Hey everyone can be gay you just got to know the way. I <3 gay chartcers(minus pichu), I like puff/falco/marth/sheik/ice climbers they are all fun to play as.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Other characters might just be gay though. I need the extra soft touch of super ****** homosexuality that only Sheik's satin bodysuit and tights can provide.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

it's funner to be creatively gay with a smaller body with a twin in a tight sweatly suit hard ****** the ground with every wavedash. you see sheik has like 3 ways to be gay with throws(auto combos/tech chase/chain throws) when you can have that raw ******ness on a snow covered stick to smack people with teh hammers in more ways than you can break a bralw. besides I laugh when sheik chain throws me where is the fun in being gay?

sorry but creative gayness is really fun. Besides our wavedash is longer. o_O

 

[choknater]

lol

i enjoy being 'creatively gay' as well

 

[KirbyKaze]

If you think that Sheik only has 3 ways to be gay you need to reevaluate what you know about ****** fierceness.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

3 ways with grabs i'm sorry if I missed the grabs part. wait I said 3 ways with throws.

LOL one day I hope to play you.

 

[KirbyKaze]

B-throw gimps...?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

LOL LOL, i'm soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo glad your one of those people who F***ing know anything about what their argueing about, if anyone ever tells me what's what for whos better kirby/pichu you should most people just flume toxic somg and don't know what their talking about.

gay sheik tactic 74# chain camp the rock on congo jungle.

 

[Nintendude]

So I was playing Vanz' Sheik yesterday and was having a hard time getting through the Fair/f-tilt wall. The main issue was he'd always space the Fair so it hit me, so I'd have to shield, but if I shield there's nothing I can do to punish the spaced f-tilt and I pretty much just have to retreat. I would try to get under him with uairs but he always seemed to be spaced just far away enough to be safe.

 

[KirbyKaze]

In interview Chu recommended spacing Fairs vs Sheik Fairs if she's really horizontal. I have no idea if this is good or not but it's disjointed range and she has no aerial mobility. Might be worth looking into.

 

[KirbyKaze]

LOL LOL, i'm soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo glad your one of those people who F***ing know anything about what their argueing about, if anyone ever tells me what's what for whos better kirby/pichu you should most people just flume toxic somg and don't know what their talking about.

gay sheik tactic 74# chain camp the rock on congo jungle.

I'm caring less and less about Pichu and Kirby's tier placements.

As far as I'm concerned the bottom 5 or 6 characters (probably the whole low tier, honestly) can probably be written in almost any order depending on how you evaluate their performance, abilities, etc. We can't even make up our mind on the top 8 characters and what order they should be in, or if character 8 should be Samus, Ice Climbers, Doc, or Ganon. With the significantly larger amount of tournament results, matchup information, and professional opinion by people that actually play those characters available, we still can't make up our minds on it.

Now, trying to do that with the low tiers, with no tournament results, extremely limited information sources, and significantly reduced professional opinions... it seems futile. I've seen at least 30 different lists for the bottom 6 and some have Bowser at like 3rd from the bottom. And, quite seriously, Bowser is arguably 3rd worst if you just say "camping lol" even though he has a ton of reasonably good traits in his Up+B, ledge attack, shield game, and Koopa Claw mixup (air grab is like empty SH grab but better).

I think he's better than that, but I mean, it's not like the case for it doesn't exist. And it really is a pain to do anything with him to someone that just runs away on Dreamland shooting you for 7 minutes.

Pichu, Kirby. Tomato, tomatto.

 

[ChivalRuse]

So I was playing Vanz' Sheik yesterday and was having a hard time getting through the Fair/f-tilt wall. The main issue was he'd always space the Fair so it hit me, so I'd have to shield, but if I shield there's nothing I can do to punish the spaced f-tilt and I pretty much just have to retreat. I would try to get under him with uairs but he always seemed to be spaced just far away enough to be safe.

I've been experimenting with ways to avoid the fair while maintaining the ability to punish her ftilt followup. At super low percents, you don't even need to shield the fair. Just CC it, CC the filt, and dash grab asap. Sometimes you can simply CC the fair and grab. At higher percents, spotdodge the fair (Nana will get hit, usually), CC the ftilt, and dash grab. Above 60%, though, you just have to space better and can't rely on CC gimmicks.

 

[Kyu Puff]

CCing can backfire if the Sheik reacts to it/does something else; she could jump and punish whatever you do with another f-air, d-smash, etc. I think CC is a decent way to recover from a bad position (like if you wd in to approach and then realize that she outspaced you), but you can't really anticipate that she's going to tilt from such a versatile position.

So I was playing Vanz' Sheik yesterday and was having a hard time getting through the Fair/f-tilt wall. The main issue was he'd always space the Fair so it hit me, so I'd have to shield, but if I shield there's nothing I can do to punish the spaced f-tilt and I pretty much just have to retreat. I would try to get under him with uairs but he always seemed to be spaced just far away enough to be safe.

Getting under with u-air can be really difficult. If she's spacing like that try to reset to a neutral position (get at least a wd's length away), and try to beat her horizontal game: wd b-air, wd d-smash (you can beat falling f-air with the back of the hitbox if you time it right), dd/belay blizzard, wd u-tilt (I think this is a little easier to land than sh u-air against spaced f-airs).

 

[ChivalRuse]

Dsmash can be CC'ed, just not past like 20%.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

hey Kirby kaze i'm sorry, i'm driving you nuts. I'm sorry I just am unable to give up at anything in life(unless there is a great reason). But I can argee with you, i'm sorry I just want to put in some input I know about solidly and I can understand and mostly argee with you for the most part. the top tiers should be figured out 1st then the details be worked out.

I think we should for now make the changes that like 80% of argee with like puff above falcon I think at least 80% of the players can argee with, the changes that should have been made when the list was made. It would make everyone happier. But again i'm sorry i'll never quit, I can't it makes me stronger in many ways more so with an open mind and I think i'm not totally close minded.

 

[choknater]

i like randomly wdfsmashing a sheik's sh fair

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah, fsmash is nice. Have to time it well, though.

 

[Kyu Puff]

i like d-smash better, it comes out a lot faster

 

[ChivalRuse]

Doesn't fsmash own Sheik's SH better?

 

[Kyu Puff]

You need to hit her in her descent, and in that case d-smash works just as well in my opinion. It has a little less range but still works if you space it right, and it comes out in 6 frames so it's easier to time.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I just noticed Fly using fsmash a lot vs Sheik (Kira's). That's the only reason why I question the amazingness of dsmash.

 

[Kyu Puff]

F-smash works too, and it's good in the match-up, but I just prefer d-smash in this specific situation I guess. I'll try to find a video of it.